Renly usurping the throne

[WSmith84]

Renly had no way of knowing that Stannis would declare himself King. For all he knew, Stannis might have declared for Joffrey. And even if Renly had declared for Stannis, why would the Tyrells join their cause? Mace wanted a Queen for a daughter. They probably would have sided with the Lannisters, which still results in the two most powerful factions joining together.

[dRagonese]

Renly Myth: Because Renly was personally liked by people he enjoyed wide spread support. Renly fact: Renly was supported by two regions, the Stormlands and the Reach. This was exactly as many regions as supported Robb (North and Riverlands) and Joffrey (Crownlands and Westerlands). Had the Vale not been being artificially held back by Littlefinger's control over Lysa, the Vale would have declared for Robb. The Iron Islands did their own thing and Dorne was sitting it out. So Renly enjoyed no more support than anyone else in the Wot5K.

Stannis Myth: No one supported Stannis. Stannis fact: Eddard supported Stannis' claim. He had written a letter to Stannis telling him this, but when Sansa went to Cersei, the letter was intercepted and never reached Stannis. Had this letter made it through, Stannis would have had the support of the North and most probably the Riverlands. So Stannis would have likely had as much support as Renly.

 

The fact that the people liked him is irrelevant to my thought that as a character he seems to be very happy to be behind the scenes reaping all the benefits of a high lord on the small council. Why not just back stannis and sit the council just like he did for Robert, no matter the relationship stannis would never screw his brother over for no reason. 

[Trigger Warning]

The fact that the people liked him is irrelevant to my thought that as a character he seems to be very happy to be behind the scenes reaping all the benefits of a high lord on the small council. Why not just back stannis and sit the council just like he did for Robert, no matter the relationship stannis would never screw his brother over for no reason. 

Because by the time the option to back Stannis is even on the table Renly's already crowned and wed. 

It's one thing to argue that Renly shouldn't have betrayed Joffrey but to argue that he should back Stannis requires too many mental gymnastics. 

[dariopatke]

Stay loyal to a man that hasn't declared himself? 

 

If he's willing to usurp Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella to keep the Lannisters off the throne why shoot himself in the foot by not crowning himself and instead approaching Stannis, he's already usurping Robert's children. 

I say stay loyal to wisdom and wait with that huge army and see what happens, time is working for him, he has fleet, he has good commanders and shiuld just watch fight between wolves, lions and stags while his stag is growing strong. Whoever wins will be too weak to put up a good fight to him.

[WSmith84]

The fact that the people liked him is irrelevant to my thought that as a character he seems to be very happy to be behind the scenes reaping all the benefits of a high lord on the small council. Why not just back stannis and sit the council just like he did for Robert, no matter the relationship stannis would never screw his brother over for no reason. 

Because Renly didn't know that Stannis would declare himself King? Why pledge yourself to a man who you aren't certain will declare himself king? And even if Renly had done so, it still doesn't stop the Tyrells from marrying the Lannisters. Renly needed a bargaining chip to secure the Reach and overthrow the Lannisters; he was the best bargaining chip he had.

[Trigger Warning]

I say stay loyal to wisdom and wait with that huge army and see what happens, time is working for him, he has fleet, he has good commanders and shiuld just watch fight between wolves, lions and stags while his stag is growing strong. Whoever wins will be too weak to put up a good fight to him.

Which is exactly what he was doing, until Stannis attacked his castle. He doesn't have a fleet though, unless he can save the Redwyne twins. 

[Sullen]

Not as many, but a lot more. If Renly didn't want Lannisters on IT, he could stay loyal to his brother, legit heir.

Joffrey was the legit heir, not Stannis.

Renly Myth: Because Renly was personally liked by people he enjoyed wide spread support. Renly fact: Renly was supported by two regions, the Stormlands and the Reach. This was exactly as many regions as supported Robb (North and Riverlands) and Joffrey (Crownlands and Westerlands). Had the Vale not been being artificially held back by Littlefinger's control over Lysa, the Vale would have declared for Robb. The Iron Islands did their own thing and Dorne was sitting it out. So Renly enjoyed no more support than anyone else in the Wot5K.

Stannis Myth: No one supported Stannis. Stannis fact: Eddard supported Stannis' claim. He had written a letter to Stannis telling him this, but when Sansa went to Cersei, the letter was intercepted and never reached Stannis. Had this letter made it through, Stannis would have had the support of the North and most probably the Riverlands. So Stannis would have likely had as much support as Renly.

 

You say that as if regions were equal all across the board, support from the Reach or the Westerlands means more, considerably more, than support from the Crownlands or the North.

Also, the Greatjon and the Northmen were dead set on independence, whether Stannis was legit or not would have not changed their minds.

[John Doe]

(1) Renly didn't believe Stannis was the legit heir. He believed Joffrey was the legit heir.

 Doesn't matter, Stannis was the older brother. Renly has no right to the crown with Stannis around.

Why?  He has no reason to believe Stannis will rebel nor that he was the legit heir. 

Why is Renly a moron?  Neither did Robert yet he still sat on the throne.  Reminds me more of Stannis and his council.  Besides attacking Renly and his whole abandoning his brothers in KL.

1. Stannis is above him in the line of succession, it does not matter what Joffrey is.

2. Robert at least pretended to have some  kind of claim, moreover he relied on a broader alliance instead of just one house. Renlys ideas threaten the foundation of a feudal society, as Robb pointed out. How does it remind you of Stannis? It is clear he is in charge of his council and not the other way around, in contrary to other kings or queens we see in the series.

I think Renly could have been a great King. He seemed to have been the only one who actually wanted the job.

Maybe, but I'm not so sure about this. When Stannis besieged Storm's End he put his trust on Loras instead of Tarly and risked the outcome by only using a part of his strenght. That's probably not the best decesion making, although it is hard to tell.

[dRagonese]

Because Renly didn't know that Stannis would declare himself King? Why pledge yourself to a man who you aren't certain will declare himself king? And even if Renly had done so, it still doesn't stop the Tyrells from marrying the Lannisters. Renly needed a bargaining chip to secure the Reach and overthrow the Lannisters; he was the best bargaining chip he had.

i feel like this is assuming to much, is there solid proof that renly did not know stannis would declare?

[Minsc]

 

2. Robert at least pretended to have some  kind of claim, moreover he relied on a broader alliance instead of just one house. Renlys ideas threaten the foundation of a feudal society, as Robb pointed out. How does it remind you of Stannis? It is clear he is in charge of his council and not the other way around, in contrary to other kings or queens we see in the series.

Robert's claim was no better than Renly's with him having around five people before him.  No more than Robert's Rebellion or Stannis' Rebellion.  Renly's single house brought about the same initial support that Robert had for his rebellion.  Please, Renly shows himself as being in charge of his own forces the same if not more than Stannis.

Maybe, but I'm not so sure about this. When Stannis besieged Storm's End he put his trust on Loras instead of Tarly and risked the outcome by only using a part of his strenght. That's probably not the best decesion making, although it is hard to tell.

Loras was a perfectly fine choice to led his vanguard and fits in with the other commanders with have seen appointed commander of the vanguard.  He didn't risk anything, even with only part of his strength he still outnumbered Stannis around 4 to 1.  He had zero reason to delay his response by bringing his entire force.  Stannis' decision making is much worse than Renly's.

[sapphire_lion]

Doesn't matter, Stannis was the older brother. Renly has no right to the crown with Stannis around.

Disagree. Renly was already breaking the line of succession. He was also making a powerful alliance with the Tyrells that involved making Marg the Queen. On the other hand, Stannis had been held up in his castle for an entire year. Renly did not have time to worry about old sourpuss. He was making significant moves against the Lannisters. If Renly joined up with Stannis, he'd still be cutting in the line of succession (since he believed Joffrey and Tommen were legit) and he'd be kissing Tyrell support goodbye.  

Besides, the fact that any Baratheon has a claim to the throne is entirely due to usurpation. 

[John Doe]

 

 

Robert's claim was no better than Renly's with him having around five people before him.  No more than Robert's Rebellion or Stannis' Rebellion.  Please, Renly shows himself as being in charge of his own forces the same if not more than Stannis.

Loras was a perfectly fine choice to led his vanguard and fits in with the other commanders with have seen appointed commander of the vanguard.  He didn't risk anything, even with only part of his strength he still outnumbered Stannis around 4 to 1.  He had zero reason to delay his response by bringing his entire force.  Stannis' decision making is much worse than Renly's.

1. Stannis and Renly are of the same dynasty, with Robert the realm had just gotten rid of the old one. But him pretending to care about a claim and relying on a broader alliance is my more important argument regardless of how valid his claim actually was .

2. Randyll discouraged an attack on Stannis' terms, and I'd rather trust his judgement on military matters than  Renlys. Stannis is still alive while Renly is dead, his judgement doesn't seem to be worse.

[sapphire_lion]

 

 Stannis is still alive while Renly is dead, his judgement doesn't seem to be worse.

Renly is dead because Stannis's side piece birthed out a shadow monster that killed him. Renly could not have possibly foreseen that, so his judgement on the matter should not be called into question.

However, Stannis's involvement with kinslaying and a fire demon does cast a negative light on his judgement. 

[Minsc]

 

1. Stannis and Renly are of the same dynasty, with Robert the realm had just gotten rid of the old one. But him pretending to care about a claim and relying on a broader alliance is my more important argument regardless of how valid his claim actually was .

2. Randyll discouraged an attack on Stannis' terms, and I'd rather trust his judgement on military matters than  Renlys. Stannis is still alive while Renly is dead, his judgement doesn't seem to be worse.

1. Robert's claim comes from his connection to the past dynasty.  Renly can make up a bogus claim the same as Robert and his alliance was just as strong as Robert's initial alliances.

2. Not regarding Loras.  Because Stannis had a deus ex machina up Mel's cooch which he then proceeded to waste as strategy be hard for Stannis.

[Winter's Cold]

Stannis won the war for the Lannisters by killing Renly. 

[John Doe]

Renly is dead because Stannis's side piece birthed out a shadow monster that killed him. Renly could not have possibly foreseen that, so his judgement on the matter should not be called into question.

However, Stannis's involvement with kinslaying and a fire demon does cast a negative light on his judgement. 

1. Read again. I called Renlys judgement into question because his attack wasn't well prepared, not because he was assassinated.

“Ned would surely have prevailed upon Robert to bring up his whole force, to encircle Stannis and besiege the besiegers. That choice Renly had denied himself in his headlong rush to come to grips with his brother. He had outdistanced his supply lines, left food and forage days behind…he must come to battle soon, or starve.”

“Lord Mathis, you shall lead the center of my main battle. Bryce, you’ll have the left. The right is mine. Lord Estermont, you shall command the reserve…the greatest glory by rights belongs to the greatest knight. Ser Loras shall strike the first blow.”

Chosen by Stannis,” Randyll Tarly pointed out. “He’d have us charge into the teeth of the rising sun. We’ll be half-blind.”

2. Kinslaying is a moot point since 1. Renly was a traitor who attempted to usurp him, 2. Renly very clearly showed his intent to kill Stannis. And why is it better to kill someone with 20.000 men than with magic?

 “Your brother is the lawful heir.”

“While he lives…”

 “Ser Loras will break them, and after that it will be chaos…when my brother falls, see that no insult is done to his corpse. ”

[Minsc]

Catelyn being vastly overly cautious with that criticism as there is zero reason why Renly would have to bring his infantry with him already outnumbering Stannis around to 4 to 1 with his cavalry alone. 

Renly's appointment of Loras to led his vanguard is a standard vanguard appointment with both Tywin and Stannis making similar appointments in regards to their vanguard.

While, it might have been better to attack earlier strategically politically it might be more harmful as it makes him appear treacherous with breaking his word.  While, the disadvantages of waiting is much more subdued.

 

Renly never acknowledged or pledged any oath to Stannis thus isn't a traitor to him.  Renly is only willing to kill Stannis after Stannis has attacked and threatened him first. 

[John Doe]

1. Robert's claim comes from his connection to the past dynasty.  Renly can make up a bogus claim the same as Robert and his alliance was just as strong as Robert's initial alliances.

2. Not regarding Loras.  Because Stannis had a deus ex machina up Mel's cooch which he then proceeded to waste as strategy be hard for Stannis.

1. He can't, and he didn't. He didn't even care.

2. Loras was inexperienced and maybe sixteen years old, definitely less qualified than Randyll.

3. You don't know the specifics of her magic, maybe she couldn't delay the birth. It may well have nothing to do with his strategic abilities.

[John Doe]

Catelyn being vastly overly cautious with that criticism as there is zero reason why Renly would have to bring his infantry with him already outnumbering Stannis around to 4 to 1 with his cavalry alone

Renly's appointment of Loras to led his vanguard is a standard vanguard appointment with both Tywin and Stannis making similar appointments in regards to their vanguard.

While, it might have been better to attack earlier strategically politically it might be more harmful as it makes him appear treacherous with breaking his word.  While, the disadvantages of waiting is much more subdued.

Renly never acknowledged or pledged any oath to Stannis thus isn't a traitor to him.  Renly is only willing to kill Stannis after Stannis has attacked and threatened him first. 

1. Maybe. That's what Renly thought, Catelyn thought otherwise. Her choice would probably have been the less risky one.

2. They did not have one of the realm's best soldiers with them.

3. He could have attacked later, at an hour that favors him and that is not chosen by his opponent.

4. He is a traitor because he tried to usurp his title.

[Wavey Sauce]

Why?  He has no reason to believe Stannis will rebel nor that he was the legit heir.  Furthermore, supporting Stannis just makes every thing even more difficult than if he just crowns himself.

 

Why is Renly a moron?  Neither did Robert yet he still sat on the throne.  Reminds me more of Stannis and his council.  Besides attacking Renly and his whole abandoning his brothers in KL.

Robert had pure hate and a good reason (so he thought) to go against the Targs, overthrow them etc.

 

Stannis had never wronged Renly, nor gave him any reason to pull the BS he did, he was the younger heir, and none of that mattered. I cannot believe I just read what I read. Hope you are kidding