Rebels and pretenders

[LordImp]

How many rebellions and pretenders has it been since Aegons conquest? 

During Aenys reign , Jonos Arryn took controll of the Vale and Harren the red rebelled in the Riverlands. And of course the faith uprising. And the Vulture King in Dorne. 

Daemon Targaryen declared himself King of the Narrow sea

During the Dance , it was two i think pretenders who for a very short time was declared Kings.

If i remember right , a Baratheon also rebelled  briefly.

Hawk , Pig and Rat assembled an army and was defeated by The mad Kings brother Daeron . 

And of course Roberts rebellion and the Greyjoy rebellion .

Has it been any more rebels and  pretenders ? Dont remember them all and i dont have my book right now. 

 

 

[TheSovereignGrave]

Daemon Targaryen wasn't a pretender nor a rebel. He conquered the Stepstones and declared himself King of the Stepstones and the Narrow Sea; that doesn't put him at odds with the Iron Throne.

And I think you missed one of the big ones: the Blackfyre Rebellion.

[Lion of the West]

For a question, does "pretender" mean only those who failed to steal the throne from the rightful holder? Because if we also include those who managed it then the list gets a lot longer,.

[LordImp]

Daemon Targaryen wasn't a pretender nor a rebel. He conquered the Stepstones and declared himself King of the Stepstones and the Narrow Sea; that doesn't put him at odds with the Iron Throne.

And I think you missed one of the big ones: the Blackfyre Rebellion.

Of course the Blackfyres.

For a question, does "pretender" mean only those who failed to steal the throne from the rightful holder? Because if we also include those who managed it then the list gets a lot longer,.

By pretender i mean those who tried to take it or declared themself King. 

[LordImp]

Wasnt it also a Queen Sunderland or something ? 

[Lord Varys]

Of course the Blackfyres.

By pretender i mean those who tried to take it or declared themself King. 

Pretenders are people who claim their are kings/monarchs/nobles ruling something and lose/cannot successfully push their claims. In that sense, all the Targaryen kings from Aegon I to Aerys II are true kings. Viserys III would qualify as a pretender to the throne despite the fact that he has very good reason to call himself 'the rightful king' simply because he never actually ruled - which doesn't mean that the Targaryen loyalists did not consider him the rightful king anyway.

Robert, Joffrey, and Tommen aren't pretenders, but Renly, Stannis, and Daenerys qualify as such as long as they don't actually rule the Realm from the Iron Throne. Robb and Balon are rebels and could be considered pretenders to the thrones of independent kingdoms but those kingdoms weren't recognized by anyone in Westeros outside the domains they directly controlled. Euron already sort of is a pretender to the Iron Throne although he has yet publicly proclaim his intention to take the Iron Throne - just as Prince Aegon has, who as of yet is not even styling himself king.

The only real difference between a pretender and a true king is success, both in Westeros and in real world monarchies. During a war or a rebellion you can easily be demoted or promoted from pretender to true king or vice versa. While Aegon II sat freshly crowned on the Iron Throne and Rhaenyra suffered her stillbirth on Dragonstone, she was nothing but a pretender, but while Rhaenyra sat on the Iron Throne and Aegon II hid on Dragonstone he had become the pretender and she the queen. Things changed again after Rhaenyra's violent death and Aegon's restoration to the Iron Throne. The same thing could have happened to Daeron II had Daemon Blackfyre won on the Redgrass Field and Daeron had to flee into exile. If he had died in exile he would have died either as a false king/pretender despite the fact that he had actually sat on the Iron Throne for twelve years. But if his sons had eventually regained the Iron Throne from the Blackfyres he might have been posthumously proclaimed a true king again.

Three potentially very important pretenders to the Iron Throne might be the three impostors who claimed to be Prince Daeron the Daring during the reign of Aegon III.

[Jaak]

Does success make a "pretender" a "true king" or an "usurper"?

Did physical possession of Iron Throne make Trystane a true king?

[Lord Varys]

Does success make a "pretender" a "true king" or an "usurper"?

Did physical possession of Iron Throne make Trystane a true king?

The difference between a pretender and usurper is that a usurper actually successfully stole a throne somebody else was sitting on whereas a pretender may just claim he is the true king but lacking the strength to actually push that claim or lose the war/rebellion he or she has started.

In the end, historians and posterity decide who was a 'true king' and who was merely a pretender or a false king. Trystane Truefyre is considered a pretender by the historians but I'd not call him a usurper since he never actually stole the Iron Throne from anyone - Rhaenyra abandoned the city and the throne, and Trystane followers in KL had every reason to believe that Aegon II and all his siblings were dead. Someone had to sit on the Iron Throne - why not Trystane Truefyre?

If there is a Targaryen restoration then there is a good chance that Robert, Joffrey, and Tommen are condemned as usurpers and false kings, and Viserys III is counted among the true kings despite the fact that he never ruled. That way the Targaryens would establish a dynastic continuity and downplay the fact that they had been deposed. One assumes that Haegon Blackfyre or Daemon III Blackfyre would also have counted Daemon I and Daemon II among the 'true kings' living in exile while Daeron II, Aerys I, etc. would be condemned as false kings and usurpers.

Critical historians tend to point out the chaos and lack of legitimacy in long times of civil war and strife, and occasionally decide that in such times neither would-be monarch actually had the power they claimed, but the official history of those nations if they still exist have they own view of things, and that view mostly is in favor of whoever won the war in the end and/or continued the royal dynasty.

[Jaak]

 Trystane Truefyre is considered a pretender by the historians but I'd not call him a usurper since he never actually stole the Iron Throne from anyone - Rhaenyra abandoned the city and the throne,

 He very much did rob the throne from Rhaenyra, leading a rebellion against her.

and Trystane followers in KL had every reason to believe that Aegon II and all his siblings were dead.

 Yes. For Greens, he had a plausible claim - all sons before daughters, and even bastard sons before daughters (though after their trueborn brethren).

Wonder why Trystane was executed, seeing how ser Perkin was spared?

Had Daeron the Daring actually gone ahead and proclaimed himself King in reasonable belief that his elder brother was dead, would he have been an usurper, a pretender or a true king once his elder brother was found hiding under some rock?

Maelor was torn apart at Bitterbridge. Jaehaera was brought safely to Storm's End, while her father was missing, presumed dead.

Was Jaehaera actually called Queen at Storm's End while her father was missing?

Someone had to sit on the Iron Throne - why not Trystane Truefyre?

 Who sat Iron Throne after Borros Baratheon took it and before Aegon II reappeared?

[Lord Varys]

He very much did rob the throne from Rhaenyra, leading a rebellion against her.

Yes. For Greens, he had a plausible claim - all sons before daughters, and even bastard sons before daughters (though after their trueborn brethren).

Wonder why Trystane was executed, seeing how ser Perkin was spared?

Had Daeron the Daring actually gone ahead and proclaimed himself King in reasonable belief that his elder brother was dead, would he have been an usurper, a pretender or a true king once his elder brother was found hiding under some rock?

Maelor was torn apart at Bitterbridge. Jaehaera was brought safely to Storm's End, while her father was missing, presumed dead.

Was Jaehaera actually called Queen at Storm's End while her father was missing?

Who sat Iron Throne after Borros Baratheon took it and before Aegon II reappeared?

Trystane and Ser Perkin only led one of the many uprisings in KL that forced Rhaenyra to abandon the city. It doesn't seem as if Trystane Truefyre had the numbers or the strength to actually take the Red Keep from Rhaenyra had she not left the castle.

The very fact that Tystane and Perkin had to suffer a rival pretender - Gaemon Palehair - within King's Landing itself puts their strength into perspective.

I'm not sure Perkin the Flea thought all that much about claims. We don't even know whether the claim Trystane Truefyre was the son of Viserys I has any merit whatsoever - say, we don't even know whether Trystane's mother ever had sexual relations with Viserys I and could therefore theoretically be Trystane's father.

But we can reasonably assume that Perkin thought that all of Aegon's siblings as well as Aegon's children were dead. He would have had no means to know that Jaehaera was sent to and hidden at Storm's End - but he certainly wouldn't have cared if he had known. After all, as far as we know Trystane Truefyre was no acknowledged bastard of Viserys I, and therefore his claim that Trystane was a Targaryen bastard had pretty much no merit at all.

I assume Perkin was the one who deposed and handed Trystane over to Borros Baratheon/Aegon II gaining a pardon for himself in the process. Just as he later most likely participated in the murder of Aegon II, hoping for a pardon from the victorious Blacks, and then finally playing the 'I want to take the black' card with Cregan Stark, saving his life.

Trystane execution could be a hint that Aegon II either believed that Trystane was his bastard brother or that he at least couldn't ignore the possibility that this was true. But the reason for his execution most likely was that he had worn a crown and sat the Iron Throne. Such people are dangerous regardless from whom they are descended.

The fact that he pardoned Gaemon Palehair could be a hint Aegon II was indeed the son of the boy. He could have served as a potential heir/consort to Jaehaera should Aegon II turn out to be incapable of fathering sons on his future wife, one of Borros Baratheon's daughters.

Daeron the Daring most certainly would have given up his crown had he been crowned while his brother was believed to be dead. But while he was still in the field he would just have been a pretender, not a true king. The situation between the brothers only might have become really problematic if the Green had actually crowned and anointed Daeron I in KL before the fact that Aegon II was still alive had been made known. In that case the people behind Daeron might have been more interested in keeping their young king on the throne rather than replacing him with his crippled elder brother.

I don't think much time (if any) passed between Borros arriving at KL and Aegon II's restoration. In fact, I think Aegon II commanded Lord Borros from Dragonstone to pacify KL in his name and await his return there. Borros Baratheon sat out the war, and most certainly only bestirred himself after he had learned from Aegon II himself that Rhaenyra was dead and Aegon II in possession of Dragonstone.

[Jaak]

I don't think much time (if any) passed between Borros arriving at KL and Aegon II's restoration. In fact, I think Aegon II commanded Lord Borros from Dragonstone to pacify KL in his name and await his return there. Borros Baratheon sat out the war, and most certainly only bestirred himself after he had learned from Aegon II himself that Rhaenyra was dead and Aegon II in possession of Dragonstone.

Trystane held the throne for 2 weeks in Moon of 3 Kings. Rhaenyra had been fleeing for several days, overland King´s Landing to Duskendale and then by sea. 2 weeks is too short to march overland Storm´s End to King´s Landing. Borros must have been on his way, quite near King´s Landing.

[Lord Varys]

Trystane held the throne for 2 weeks in Moon of 3 Kings. Rhaenyra had been fleeing for several days, overland King´s Landing to Duskendale and then by sea. 2 weeks is too short to march overland Storm´s End to King´s Landing. Borros must have been on his way, quite near King´s Landing.

That makes no sense unless we assume that Aegon II wasn't one of the three kings from the Moon of Three Kings. The moon the name is referring to must have been the moon in which Aegon II was restored, and that clearly didn't happened shortly after the Storming of the Dragonpit nor shortly after Rhaenyra's death - Aegon II spent nearly two months on Dragonstone, waiting for the death of Sunfyre.

We don't know how quickly Trystane and Gaemon were proclaimed and installed as kings, but one assumes that the true power in the city lay with the Shepherd for quite some time after Rhaenyra had fled. There is much we don't know yet about this particular time.

[Blackfyre Bastard]

 

Trystane execution could be a hint that Aegon II either believed that Trystane was his bastard brother or that he at least couldn't ignore the possibility that this was true. But the reason for his execution most likely was that he had worn a crown and sat the Iron Throne. Such people are dangerous regardless from whom they are descended.

 

I always thought he was executed because he was proclaimed king without having a claim to the IT. He was punished not because he was feared, but because of the impudence.

[Jaak]

We don't know how quickly Trystane and Gaemon were proclaimed and installed as kings, but one assumes that the true power in the city lay with the Shepherd for quite some time after Rhaenyra had fled.

We do know that Trystane was proclaimed and flying his banners before Rhaenyra departed.

Hugh was King: he did have his crown, the iron one which Ser Roger Corne knocked off.

[Aemond's Eye]

I took Trystane being granted a knighthood before his execution as a hint that he indeed have been an unacknowledged baseborn bastard of Viserys I. That was the detail that made me consider the possibility. It seems odd that Aegon II would grant a knighthood to someone falsely claiming to be his father's bastard, or that anyone would risk Aegon's wroth by doing so without his consent.