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US-Politics The Resistible Rise of Donald J. Trump


A Horse Named Stranger

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You know, the whole Constitution thing is supposed to take care of protection of the minority against oppressive majority rule.  I would say that if someone is being denied their Constitutionally established rights, or if a law is dealing with these, a super majority should be required, and even then it must be deemed constitutional by the Supreme Court.  

But if it's not touching on those issues?  There's no problem with a "mere" majority.

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Oh, I wouldn't doubt it based on the people I'm around, but I'm in the South and grew up in a hunting family, so I'm in the concentrated area.

The biggest complaint I hear is not necessarily restrictions on gun ownership, but rather a lack of trust in the government (which I think is well founded) to implement it in a way that actually works and doesn't destroy the rights of people who are not the problem.

Any law does that, to a degree. Tanks might be fun to own, but the people who'd abuse it are the reason the rest of us can't have one. People-killing guns are an issue in the U.S. because people have imbued them with a meaning they don't inherently possess, at least not in a way very distinct from tanks or rocket launchers. If you limit gun access to hunting guns, within a generation or 2 people wouldn't care anymore. It's an idealistic habit, really.

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Any law does that, to a degree. Tanks might be fun to own, but the people who'd abuse it are the reason the rest of us can't have one. People-killing guns are an issue in the U.S. because people have imbued them with a meaning they don't inherently possess, at least not in a way very distinct from tanks or rocket launchers. If you limit gun access to hunting guns, within a generation or 2 people wouldn't care anymore. It's an idealistic habit, really.

Yes and no.  Just off the top of my head, I'd say Education legislation, transportation, most business regulation, hunting laws, etc, don't really infringe on the established rights of those who are governed.  

 

I don't think there'd be an issue getting a super majority against tanks or RPGs, either.

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1) Yes and no.  Just off the top of my head, I'd say Education legislation, transportation, most business regulation, hunting laws, etc, don't really infringe on the established rights of those who are governed.  

 

2) I don't think there'd be an issue getting a super majority against tanks or RPGs, either.

1) I could argue these on point, I guess, but not feeling it and I think it's better served by altering my statement to 'restrictive laws'.

 

2) No doubt, but the question is 'why not'? The same principles/potential governmental abuses/slippery slope peril etc. exist. That's what I mean by habit...for those for whom it's an idealistic issue, it is so almost entirely because of habit. In point of fact, rocket launchers would be more effective in a fight vs. tyranny, and when it comes to a deterrent to criminals, tanks >>>>> guns. But it's not really about those things, it's about habits. Americans are in the habit of thinking certain types of weapon are identified with freedom and safety, and it's hard to break a habit, whatever the data/logic involved.

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That's the problem. People do want better control of firearms (not outright ban) but the NRA lobby has so much power that it'll never get done with Congress. Representatives are only worried about re-election and campaign funds, not making laws about things that make logical sense.

Me feelings exactly.  It's unfortunate because if the NRA stopped freaking out and fighting every possible "gun reform" suggestion and instead became part of the solution, we could get a to a safer solution more quickly. 

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There isn't a viable alternative. Having majority rule with a system of checks and balances is our best option.

Generally, yes.

The US (and to a lesser extent, UK) has some ingrained problems though. Mainly that the way voting works in the US and UK leads to issues such as gerrymandering and an entrenched two-party system (the latter less so in the UK; but the last election's results were massively disproportionate to actual votes as a result). You might have to look into getting rid of the entire first past the post system to change this.

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Me feelings exactly.  It's unfortunate because if the NRA stopped freaking out and fighting every possible "gun reform" suggestion and instead became part of the solution, we could get a to a safer solution more quickly. 

As the NRA offers Gun Safty classes you'd think they would be all about requireing safty classes before someone can purchase a firearm.

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Wasn't there a specific second amendment thread?

Anyway, having that said. Since Mexal brought up the NRA, it reminded me of an article I read quite a while ago, probably shortly after Sandy Hook.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-nra-vs-america-20130131?page=1

 

Since I am from a relatively gun free country (and I am quite happy with that), and I really don't get that unhealthy relationship Muricans have with their guns, I find it highly intereseting, that one side says: Closing that gun show loophole won't prevent school shootings. Which is probably true, but the question is, what kind of laws would in their opinion?

Only an outright ban.  Therein lies the problem.

Me feelings exactly.  It's unfortunate because if the NRA stopped freaking out and fighting every possible "gun reform" suggestion and instead became part of the solution, we could get a to a safer solution more quickly. 

Blaming this all on NRA propaganda is lazy and so general as to be meaningless.  What safer solution compromise, specifically, are you talking about here?

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Blaming this all on NRA propaganda is lazy and so general as to be meaningless.  What safer solution compromise, specifically, are you talking about here?

Before we even get into specific policies, how about we lift the ban on research into the public health impact of firearms in the US? Can we all agree that research would help inform the debate and address potential solutions?

This ridiculous ban on research is something that we can unquestionably lay at the door of the NRA, which I think takes a lot of wind out of any NRA defense.

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How will we stand up to the NRA? If only there were a segment of the population opposed to this kind of tyranny.

It's the greatest failure of our democracy. Basically the minority opinion of a group of 4.5 million people has been forced on the entire nation.

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It's the greatest failure of our democracy. Basically the minority opinion of a group of 4.5 million people has been forced on the entire nation.

I'd say the rising wealth inequity and the massive subsidy of the rich at the cost of the other 99.5% of Americans is a bigger failure. But hey, that gun thing sucks too. 

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It's the greatest failure of our democracy. Basically the minority opinion of a group of 4.5 million people has been forced on the entire nation.

Such dramatics. It's not a failure of democracy because you can't get enough people top vote in line with your legislative preferences. That's a failure of advocacy - not democracy. 

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Blaming this all on NRA propaganda is lazy and so general as to be meaningless.  What safer solution compromise, specifically, are you talking about here?

It's the NRA that threatens to score all gun votes and encourage it's small but very politically active membership to vote in the Repuiblican primaries against politicians that vote in favor of gun regulations the NRA opposes. It's not all their fault, but they have a lot of blood on their hands.

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