Is the end of ASOIAF a little too obvious?

[Mormont'sRaven]

My mind will be effectively blown if this happens. 

Sorry about that. R + L = J. 

And it just seems like there's no great twists to be had. The rest of the story seems fairly easy to predict (at least in terms of the more important characters). Idk. The show is making it tremendously obvious that Dany "wins" in the end. 

[TeamWhiteWalkerz]

This is why I think GRRM's been teasing us with R + L = J. If it is true, there's gonna have to be some twist. Otherwise, the mother is probably Ashara Dayne. It's just far too "obvious" by now.

"Too obvious" is the dumbest argument ever. You know why its "obvious" ? Because there is a lot of evidence for it and because people have been discussing it for nearly twenty years. R+L=J not happening would be nothing short of bad writing. Get it through your heads, you and everyone else that thinks R+L=J is too obvious, GRRM is not a troll and he is not a bad writer and he will NOT throw away twenty years, 5 books, of hints and character development to fool you and get a chuckle.

[TeamWhiteWalkerz]

Sorry about that. R + L = J. 

And it just seems like there's no great twists to be had. The rest of the story seems fairly easy to predict (at least in terms of the more important characters). Idk. The show is making it tremendously obvious that Dany "wins" in the end. 

The show is not important. I dont agree with that. To me it is obvious that the Starks win in the end, they get Northern independence, which means that Dany loses because she doesnt have all of Westeros. I dont think that the Starks and Dany can both win in the end and since Jon is Stark to the bone and is also the Song of Ice and Fire, I cant foresee anyone winning over the Starks.

[bent branch]

"Obvious" is in the eye of the beholder. One thing that many people think is "obvious" is that Illyrio never thought that Dany might hatch those dragon eggs. I think it is completely within the realm of possibility that Illyrio gave Dany the eggs in the hope she would hatch them. Like I said, obvious is in the eye of the beholder.

[marsyao]

After 5 volumns of the novel I have to say, the stories plot of the "Others" and Azor Ahai reborn sound more and more like a drag to me,

[Trugghio]

"Too obvious" is the dumbest argument ever. You know why its "obvious" ? Because there is a lot of evidence for it and because people have been discussing it for nearly twenty years. R+L=J not happening would be nothing short of bad writing. Get it through your heads, you and everyone else that thinks R+L=J is too obvious, GRRM is not a troll and he is not a bad writer and he will NOT throw away twenty years, 5 books, of hints and character development to fool you and get a chuckle.

When else has the series had this amount of predictability? ASOIAF is a story of twists and turns. We know this, and yet the fandom has this massive hard-on for R + L = J and we aren't allowed to question it . . . because the series thus far has been so predictable, right? No, GRRM is not a troll. No, he is not a bad writer. But simply doubting R + L = J doesn't mean that I believe either of those things.

How does thinking that the story is more nuanced than everybody thinks it is mean that I think GRRM is a bad writer? I'd say that would make him a better writer. Besides, we have two more books where more evidence for or against R + L = J can come out. If something happens in Winds of Winter that shows definitively that Ashara Dayne could not have been Jon Snow's mother, then I won't consider it viable anymore. If something happens to show that Lyanna Stark definitely is Jon Snow's mother, then I'll believe R + L + J more. Just because a large group of people are in love with R + L = J doesn't make it true. It quite possibly is, but doubting it doesn't mean I don't think GRRM is a bad writer. If it turns out to be untrue, or if it's hinted that it's untrue in TWOW, will you all of a sudden believe GRRM is a shitty writer? Does everything else that he has written sit on this theory's shoulders? No? Then I guess GRRM is a good writer either way. Don't fool yourself – if R + L = J isn't true, there's going to be a damn good reason for it.

[Count Balerion]

Even if the end were obvious, I don't think that would negate the value and importance of the novel(s) as literature. Many great works have had completely predictable endings from a "plot" perspective.

[Maxxine]

The show is not important. I dont agree with that. To me it is obvious that the Starks win in the end, they get Northern independence, which means that Dany loses because she doesnt have all of Westeros. I dont think that the Starks and Dany can both win in the end and since Jon is Stark to the bone and is also the Song of Ice and Fire, I cant foresee anyone winning over the Starks.

I don't think the Starks "winning" or Dany "winning" are mutually exclusive. Just to use your prediction if Dany gets everything except the North I would argue she still "won." Aegon the Conqueror got everything, but history still considered him a "winner." Plus what if she lets the Starks have independence. Then they have really both won.

However, I don't think anyone will clearly win or lose , at least not in the way I think you're saying. For instance, if the Starks don't have Northern independence I wouldn't say they lost. First off, I'm not sure this is even a real goal of the Starks. Yeah they declared independence but this kinda happens randomly without any real plan or thought process behind it. I think they would be ok with just getting Winterfell.

[Makk]

This is why I think GRRM's been teasing us with R + L = J. If it is true, there's gonna have to be some twist. Otherwise, the mother is probably Ashara Dayne. It's just far too "obvious" by now.

I don't actually think R + L = J is too obvious. A lot of people who don't participate in online asoiaf discussion are not aware of it. At the same time there have been far too many subtle hints for it not to be true. This isn't the same as most of the other "obvious" things suggested. They are considered obvious by the posters gut feeling or just one or two hints. 

 

I'm convinced in his own mind GRRM wrote the first five books with that being true. To suddenly change it simply because there are now a lot of people aware of it would be a mistake. And even though it is true, so what? It doesn't necessarily change the plot of story whether he was rightful king of the seven kingdoms or Ned Starks bastard.

[Jeeves]

1. How is it obvious that Dany is AAR? The identity of AAR is one of the most debated things by this community. There are many people that fit the criteria for AAR and if someone is missing some requirements for AAR THERE RE TWO MORE BOOKS. Also bringing up the show... at this point I'm convinced that the majority of Daenerys fans are show-onlys.

2. No. It's not clear at all. The way you're describing it here suggests a final battle Others vs Humans. I personally believe that will not happen. I personally believe that the Others are not evil and the final battle will be North vs South, Stark vs Targaryen, you know... Ice vs Fire.

3. Or maybe he's not dead, or maybe he'll be resurrected by the Others, or maybe by Bran/BR. Again, not clear at all.

4. This statement assumes all fans like both Jon and Dany, while in reality the majority of Jon fans dislike Dany and vice versa. At most, one of them dying would be bittersweet only for some people. Also, GRRM's idea of bittersweet is LOTR's ending...

 

How do we know this???

You need to unconvince yourself.  I'm a Daenerys fan and I have read all of the books in ASOIAF.  Just as importantly, Dany fulfills all of the criteria for Azor Ahai.  Including the all-important, "wake dragons from stone" that no one else can.  Ever wonder why the anti Dany crowd so desperately try to explain away that one criteria and fail at it miserably?  Because Jon ain't gonna be wakin' up no dragons from stone. 

[Curled Finger]

I don't think anything here is obvious.  Many things are indicated, but not obvious.  The only "foreshadowing" or hinting that I caught during my 1st read (during which R+L = J had to be explained to me) was Ned's statement to Arya about her marrying a king and Selmy telling Dany the Mad King had it bad for Joanna Lannister (pretty funny I picked up on Tyrion being a potential Targ, but never saw the overwhelming indications for Jon).  What can I say?   I wasn't looking for clues at that time I was just trying to keep up with all the twists.   

I have a friend who believes Mel will join Team Ice and another who believes Jon and Dany will marry and rule the realm.  That's what they see at end game.   Me?   I think EVERYONE has a role to play in the multiple scenarios leading to and affecting the outcome of the endgame.  I don't think anything is obvious at all.  There is way too much unknown about the Others and the maesters and the dragons and Bran to clip it off like that.   Reading all the posts above make me wonder if some folks are bored with the story, which is sad because the story is magic and certain to be full of many more surprises.   

[PCK]

I knew Joffrey would die by watching the show (started reading the books later, after I realized this wasn't another run-of-the-mill fantasy), long before he did. I never would have guessed how. 

[princess_snow]

"Obvious" is in the eye of the beholder. One thing that many people think is "obvious" is that Illyrio never thought that Dany might hatch those dragon eggs. I think it is completely within the realm of possibility that Illyrio gave Dany the eggs in the hope she would hatch them. Like I said, obvious is in the eye of the beholder.

Yes I agree with you here bent branch. Wasnt sure how many others think it possible.

I don't think anything here is obvious.  Many things are indicated, but not obvious.  The only "foreshadowing" or hinting that I caught during my 1st read (during which R+L = J had to be explained to me) was Ned's statement to Arya about her marrying a king and Selmy telling Dany the Mad King had it bad for Joanna Lannister (pretty funny I picked up on Tyrion being a potential Targ, but never saw the overwhelming indications for Jon).  What can I say?   I wasn't looking for clues at that time I was just trying to keep up with all the twists.   

I have a friend who believes Mel will join Team Ice and another who believes Jon and Dany will marry and rule the realm.  That's what they see at end game.   Me?   I think EVERYONE has a role to play in the multiple scenarios leading to and affecting the outcome of the endgame.  I don't think anything is obvious at all.  There is way too much unknown about the Others and the maesters and the dragons and Bran to clip it off like that.   Reading all the posts above make me wonder if some folks are bored with the story, which is sad because the story is magic and certain to be full of many more surprises.   

  Everything here, sums it up very well for me. Esp the bolded. Im looking forward to more surprises and the journey to the end. Will be sad when its all over.  

[Curled Finger]

Yes I agree with you here bent branch. Wasnt sure how many others think it possible.

 

  Everything here, sums it up very well for me. Esp the bolded. Im looking forward to more surprises and the journey to the end. Will be sad when its all over.  

Take heart, Princess--The books will be written, the tales of D&E will be done, GRRM will be long gone and we will still find mystery here.   GRRM is not going to give us many clear and decisive answers.   Doesn't seem to be his style.   I just hope we will be able to understand it all better when the tale is finally told.   I imagine we will still wonder exactly who Septa Lemore and Quaithe are even then.  

[princess_snow]

Take heart, Princess--The books will be written, the tales of D&E will be done, GRRM will be long gone and we will still find mystery here.   GRRM is not going to give us many clear and decisive answers.   Doesn't seem to be his style.   I just hope we will be able to understand it all better when the tale is finally told.   I imagine we will still wonder exactly who Septa Lemore and Quaithe are even then.  

Haha yes I agree .... I can cope with Quaithe but not Septa Lemore ! 

[Cladinator]

R + J = L. 

Dany is Azor Ahai reborn. 

These things are pretty obvious if you've read the books closely and are also keeping track of the television show. Anyone care to discuss what other possibilities are? Dany clearly has to help fight The Others along with her dragons. And Jon Snow will be there, of course, resurrected by Melisandre. One of them will die since GRRM likes bittersweet endings. The dragons will all likely die fighting The Others as well. 

Thoughts?

*cue image of Robert Downey Jr mid eye-roll* 

I think you might want to wait until the end of the series before you call the ending obvious. 

[TeamWhiteWalkerz]

You need to unconvince yourself.  I'm a Daenerys fan and I have read all of the books in ASOIAF.  Just as importantly, Dany fulfills all of the criteria for Azor Ahai.  Including the all-important, "wake dragons from stone" that no one else can.  Ever wonder why the anti Dany crowd so desperately try to explain away that one criteria and fail at it miserably?  Because Jon ain't gonna be wakin' up no dragons from stone. 

I did not say ALL, I said MAJORITY. Slight difference... Also, yeah... Dany does fulfill all requirements to be AAR and I do believe she is AAR. I just think AAR is different than what most people believe it to be. 

[finger]

First, I doubt GRRM will be able to finish the story in two books... unless they are several volume books.

Second, not so obvious. We may know that the Starks will come back with a vengeance, Dany will sit the IT, at lest for a while, the Others will attack and be defeated, and good old Tyrion will die a hero, but not much more. Well, yes, most characters will find a violent death, that's for granted.

But we don't who are the few to survive and, most important, I guess he who will eventually sit the IT has not shown up yet,... but he'll marry Sansa. Har.

[Kyll.Ing.]

These things are pretty obvious if you've read the books closely and are also keeping track of the television show.

Have a second look at this part.

If you've read the books multiple times and dissected every sentence on an Internet forum with thousands of other fans for the better part of a decade, of course things will be "pretty obvious". The books do contain clues for the astute and observant reader to find. These clues are all but obvious if you read the books once, by yourself, and don't discuss it with other people. If you scrutinize the books enough, even the most subtle clue might as well have been written in boldface with pages full of footnotes, as far as "obviousness" is concerned.

Most people on here are far, far more familiar with the subtle clues of the story than most readers of the series will ever be. Martin likes to write for observant readers, but there's a clear line between "observant" and "obsessive", and once you cross that line, the books are no longer written with you in mind. Sorry to break it to everybody here, but we're probably out of the target group as far as clues and hints are concerned.

 

It takes readers a while to realize R+L = J. Many won't notice at all. Visit this forum, and it will be spoon-fed to you along with hundreds of other theories. Within a couple of hours, you'll be familiar with stuff it'd have taken you years to find out on your own. You've dug way, way deeper into the series than Martin ever intended. No wonder things may seem "obvious" to you if you've spent years on here.

[TeamWhiteWalkerz]

First, I doubt GRRM will be able to finish the story in two books... unless they are several volume books.

Second, not so obvious. We may know that the Starks will come back with a vengeance, Dany will sit the IT, at lest for a while, the Others will attack and be defeated, and good old Tyrion will die a hero, but not much more. Well, yes, most characters will find a violent death, that's for granted.

But we don't who are the few to survive and, most important, I guess he who will eventually sit the IT has not shown up yet,... but he'll marry Sansa. Har.

WE KNOW NONE OF THIS!!!! ^{except that first one}