Star Wars VII - The Spoiler Menace

[The Human Abstract]

None of the theories really make sense if you consider that someone has to abandon their child to horrible isolation.    

But there's likely another part of the story.  Perhaps the mother left her for safekeeping intending to come back and something happened to her.  One of many possibilities.  

[Howdyphillip]

My wife is absolutely 100% convinced that Rey is Luke's daughter. Not even a smidgen of doubt. I'm not quite as convinced - mostly because Luke abandoning her on Jakku to Unkar Plutt makes Luke the most fucking horrible dad in the history of ever and I hate that message - but I do think it's likely. 

I think that there is room in the narrative for Rey both to be Luke's daughter, and have it to where she wasn't abandoned on Jakku by him. We will have to see though. If I had to bet money on any theory, it would be this.

[ab aeterno]

Pablo Hidalgo said on Twitter that the "it is you" line is a throwback to the awakening Snoke has talked to Ren about. Ren is recognizing Rey as the one who has caused that awakening.

Well, he's the authority. Not doubting, but do you have a link for reference?

ETA: Hah, just had a look at Twitter - "Don't cite tweets as canon." That's just cruel, man.

[The Mance]

It will be interesting to see if anyone's predictions are spot on when the next two films are released.

Just for the record, then:

 

I think Luke is Rey's father.  I don't really like the idea that much, but considering the nepotistic bent of the series, I think it's her most likely origin.

I think Rey's Mother/Luke's wife was a force user who was, or was in the process of being, seduced by the Dark side when Rey was very young.

I think RM knew that Ren was going to slaughter all the students at Luke's school and took Rey out before that could happen.   This explains Ren's recognition of her, and her survival of the slaughter.

I think RM hid Rey on Jakku to hide her from both Luke and Snoke.  Either to shield her from Snoke's plans, and/or to preserve Rey as a tool for her own ends.  With Plutt being the perfect guardian because he was obviously not associated with the 'good guy' resistance, but also was just shady enough to want to avoid any Imperial entanglements  *wink wink*.  

I think it's possible that we'll find out that RM is dead, either by Snoke's hand or Luke's.  This ties up nicely with Maz telling Rey that whoever left her on Jakku isn't coming back.  And it adds even more depth to Luke's angst and self-imposed exile at the Jedi temple.

 

 

Also, I'm not really convinced that either Han or Leia know who she is, specifically.  I really didn't see any reactions by them (Han, mainly) that couldn't more easily be explained by her general likeableness/admiration etc.  And, I really don't see how it advances the plot at all for them to have some secret knowing of her origin now that she's already come face to face with Luke, her presumptive father, who ought to figure it out anyway whether anyone else knows or not. 

Also, I think if Han had any suspicions about who she actually was he would have been way more initially supportive/understanding of Finn's "secret rescue mission" subterfuge than he was.

[Bonesy]

Mormont, I looked it up in the Cambridge list of idioms.

Apparently the cold shoulder is decidedly unfriendly in Britain but merely disinterested in the US.

Go figure.

[lady narcissa]

Well, he's the authority. Not doubting, but do you have a link for reference?

ETA: Hah, just had a look at Twitter - "Don't cite tweets as canon." That's just cruel, man.

I am on my phone so can't link but can tell you the tweet was on 12/24/15 at 3:25 pm (central time). Otherwise can link when I get to a computer.

ETA: https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/680137218195734528

[HexMachina]

Just back from a second viewing, which I enjoyed even more than the first. For bonus points, I was alone in the screen. Private viewing, I thank you  

Couple of things I noticed.

1) How powerful Ben seems to be with the force. Like when he immobilises the blaster shot on Jakku, he also immobilises Poe at the same time, and then carries on a conversation for several minutes while holding the blaster fire in place with no apparent effort. He also immobilises Rey with the force at Maz's. 

2) On a rewatch, the Ben v Finn/Rey duel is still great, and I was able to pay closer attention rather than just being swept away. With Finn especially, Ben is clearly just toying with him. He puts little to no effort into preventing Finn from hitting him, and then when Finn gets in the lucky swipe he ends things quickly. It's similar with Rey, although she displays more skill than Finn - though she does a lot of jabbing and other such gestures. As though she is wielding a staff. I think it's clear where I'm going with that. I also noticed that she actually says (or mouths) "the force" after Ben tells her he can teach her to use the force. And finally, it's much more apparent on a rewatch just how close she is to giving in to the Dark Side and killing Ren in anger. 

3) At Maz's cantina, when Maz tells Rey that whoever left her "isn't coming back" but that there is "someone who can." Rey actually says "Luke." Didn't notice this last time. I also heard the Yoda clip in the vision (which I hadn't heard first time around).

4) Carrie Fisher's performance was not nearly as bad as I was remembering.

5) Agree with the Hux/Gleeson love and him being under appreciated. Thought he did a great job, and I thought the fanatic nazi speech was very well delivered (in the OTT way it was intended)

6) Ben is much more concerned with actually finding Luke than Snoke was. Snoke was content to simply prevent the Resistance finding him, and gave orders to destroy the map if it couldn't be recovered. Whereas Ben persisted in trying to recover the map and discover where Luke was. I think this ties in to his talk with Darth Vader's mask - he wants to finish what Vader started and eradicate the Jedi forever.

[JoeyBanana]

I'm sceptical of any theory that has the resistance, Luke, or anyone else that cares about her, having left Rey with Plutt.

I really just had this idea because the Leia/Rey scene was discussed and posted it. I wouldn't consider it a theory.

It definitely bothers me as well that in all those scenarios Rey gets abandoned by someone who supposedly cares about her. Unless it's a character that hasn't appeared (or been introduced) yet, i don't see how it's not the case. I mean, there's Kylo but that makes no sense to me because she doesn't recognize him and then who the hell is she waiting for.

[AndrewJ]

Pablo Hidalgo said on Twitter that the "it is you" line is a throwback to the awakening Snoke has talked to Ren about. Ren is recognizing Rey as the one who has caused that awakening.

I think he's just playing coy there. He's not about to come out and confirm important information on twitter, after all.

I don't think the "it is you" line makes much sense for it to be referring to the awakening mentioned by Snoke - for reasons others mentioned. But I guess you can hand-wave it to fit. But not the following line about Ren seeming to know more about her than she does herself. I call shenanigans on that tweet.

 

[Astromech]

I really just had this idea because the Leia/Rey scene was discussed and posted it. I wouldn't consider it a theory.

It definitely bothers me as well that in all those scenarios Rey gets abandoned by someone who supposedly cares about her. Unless it's a character that hasn't appeared (or been introduced) yet, i don't see how it's not the case. I mean, there's Kylo but that makes no sense to me because she doesn't recognize him and then who the hell is she waiting for.

Maybe someone has been watching her:

 

[HexMachina]

I also meant to add, thinking on some comments made when this first came out - the Republic fleet definitely was destroyed. I know there was some debate about the SK not hitting the fleet, but in the shot where the planets are being destroyed, you can see the fleet in the background also being blown up

[Kalbear]

I also meant to add, thinking on some comments made when this first came out - the Republic fleet definitely was destroyed. I know there was some debate about the SK not hitting the fleet, but in the shot where the planets are being destroyed, you can see the fleet in the background also being blown up

yeah, I forgot to mention that too. You can see a bunch of ships being obliterated.

It's a small fleet, but it's there. 

[ab aeterno]

I also meant to add, thinking on some comments made when this first came out - the Republic fleet definitely was destroyed. I know there was some debate about the SK not hitting the fleet, but in the shot where the planets are being destroyed, you can see the fleet in the background also being blown up

yeah, I forgot to mention that too. You can see a bunch of ships being obliterated.

It's a small fleet, but it's there. 

I guess it wasn't very... fleet...

[karaddin]

Seen it a couple of times with a couple of different people. I'm now ready to divulge my favorite parts in no particular order except for the very first:

 

- Kylo Ren asking Hux what's happening during Poe/Finn's escape before rattling off Finn's ID number. The fact that he just knows an individual storm trooper's ID number through what we assume is the force suggests some kind of incredible power we haven't really seen before.

 

-Ren ordering the stormtroopers out of the Maz planet before putting Rey to sleep. Again, this is showing us powers we've never seen before coupled with a supreme sense of decisiveness.

I liked most of the same stuff as you, and particularly these two.  With the first I took it to mean he'd followed up on what he senses of Finn on the planet and talked to Phasma about him, or was able to recognise him through the force and knows his ID number rather than ascertaining his ID number through the force.

On the rest of the discussion, Leia hugging Rey the way she did and then sending Rey off to look for Luke were the two biggest red flags that she's Luke's daughter. I know she's shown force powers at that point, but without that connection it still seems weird to not send anyone from the resistance to find Luke unless they are sending family after theyve spent the entire movie trying to find him.  Yes technically Rey might count at this point, but it would still feel weird to me.  The second time I saw it I tried to figure out if Han knew who she was, and the job offer really seems like he doesn't at that point so I'm really not sure what to make of it.

[Underfoot]

 

As far as I recall Leia never met Rey once in the film prior to that scene. So how should she even know who Rey is let alone be the one to comfort her.

That bothered me as well -- there was no previous connection between those two characters, so why did Leia go out of her way to hug Rey? It was a jarring moment, because from what the audience has seen, it doesn't make sense. However, after thinking about it a little, I like it and think it works well: 

1) I think it helps show how motherly Leia is. Here's this girl that she has heard about, who has no family, a lonely past. And she (Rey) is lost and hurting, and there is no one there for her. BB-8 doesn't show (surprising to me), Finn is out of the game for awhile, and with him Chewie, so Rey's alone. Leia immediately sees and recognizes that, and her motherly instincts take over and she goes to comfort her. Then they end up comforting each other

2) As others have mentioned, it solidifies the idea that Rey is Luke's daughter, a theory to which I am a strong subscriber. Even if Leia doesn't consciously realize the familial connection, she senses it anyway

3) A force connection. Rey and Leia are the only two force sensitive people around, so they may be feeling each others emotions more strongly and/or are just innately more drawn to each other? I don't know, that one is a stretch. 

 

[Davrum]

Okay, hold up.

Chewie and Leia walking past each other galled me both the first and second times I watched it. But I've just realised something.

When they come off the ship, Chewie is carrying Finn to immediate medical attention - he's clearly nearly dead. The question isn't ''why is Chewie ignoring Leia?'' it's ''why is Chewie following Finn over Leia?''. 

In EU terms, we know that Chewie followed Han because he owed him his life. In TFA, we know that Finn helped bandage up Chewie even though Chewie was raging. We also know that Finn has something of a Han-like role (sidekick to the main Jedi, not interested in fighting the bad guys but running away).

My guess is that we'll see a Finn/Chewie team up in the future as Rey grows into her role as Jedi. Luke evidently has a ship on that Island already, so chances are they'll send back Chewie for some reason and he and Finn will meet. 

The more I think about the scene, the more it's too obviously done that Chewie and Leia walk past each other. There's no way they could film that and not question it once, and no way they'd run it in the film without questioning it. 

I think you give Abrams too much credit in your last line. He's a guy known for keeping a quick pace precisely so that audiences don't have too much time to think about what's going on (or not going on).

I mean, this is the guy who has Han explain a ship can get through the shields as long as it comes in at light speed, but for no good reason insists Poe and co can't get through unless the shield is down even though it's also established that X-wings can travel at light speed, are more maneuverable than the Falcon and that Poe Dameron is both the "most daring pilot" and "one hell of a pilot". There are similar glaring plot holes in both Trek films.

This is a filmmaker far more well-known for thrills and spills and banter galore than tightly plotted and well-thought out tales. 

[felice]

Saw it again, and enjoyed it more, being prepared for the flaws. It does look good in 3D, though I'm glad I saw the 2D version first.

I mean, this is the guy who has Han explain a ship can get through the shields as long as it comes in at light speed, but for no good reason insists Poe and co can't get through unless the shield is down even though it's also established that X-wings can travel at light speed, are more maneuverable than the Falcon and that Poe Dameron is both the "most daring pilot" and "one hell of a pilot".

To be fair the lightspeed idea is only brought up after it's established that they need to get to the surface to turn off the shields; the X-wings trying the same trick is just never considered. And I don't think there's anything in the movies that establishes the X-wings as more maneuverable than the Falcon - we certainly see it outmaneuver Ties more than once despite it's much greater bulk, and it matches an X-wing in escaping the second Death Star. I'm happy to accept that the Falcon has a more precise hyperdrive than the X-wings, whatever their respective merits in dogfights, and even if Poe was willing and able to match it, what about all the other pilots?

What did bother me is going to Maz because they need a clean ship to avoid being tracked by the First Order, then taking the Falcon to the Resistance base anyway, after establishing that the First Order is willing and able to destroy entire planets from the other side of the galaxy. And then the location is given away by an entirely different ship scouting the Starkiller.

Rey's background in general is confusing. Unkar seems to be nothing but a guy who buys stuff from scavengers, and Rey is just one person in the queue; there's nothing in their interactions to hint of anything more to their relationship, so it seems strange when she turns out to be so familiar with the inside of the Falcon. And if she knows it well enough to disagree with Unkar's modifications, why does she think it's garbage? It might not look like much, but surely a skilled engineer who's worked on it over a period of years should have some idea of its real potential? Seems like they just wanted a cheap joke there. And when we find out how young she was when left on Jakku, who trained her as a pilot? It hardly seems like a sensible investment for any potential trainer given that she doesn't want to leave town, and willingness to travel is a pretty vital quality for a pilot. And we don't know how much of her lightsaber vision she was or will be present for; the Bespin corridor is almost certainly there because of its importance to Luke, rather than suggesting Rey visiting the place herself, so we can't assume she was present for any of the other scenes either, eg Luke and Artoo or the Knights of Ren. She may well have never met Luke before, though that doesn't rule out him being her father.

We don't actually see Leia and Chewie ignore each other at the end; it does give that impression, but there's a cut to a fairly long shot of Rey looking at Leia before they pass, time enough for Leia and Chewie to share a look and a touch in passing.

They do show Poe taking off his jacket in the Tie fighter, so that bit makes more sense than I'd thought.

The film doesn't really seem to know what story it's trying to tell. There's the search for Luke, but no real attention to why he matters (one line about new the Jedi rising - what new Jedi, and why are they waiting for him?). There's the Starkiller which seems grafted on to give a big finish without adequately establishing who it's being used on or why. And there's Rey's journey, which seems to be the core, but too much of that is left unexplained in this episode; we don't know who she is or why Kylo is so interested in her, and she doesn't do anything with her growing powers except escape. It might all work as part of the trilogy as a whole, but it's not entirely satisfying as a standalone installment.

[Davrum]

To be fair the lightspeed idea is only brought up after it's established that they need to get to the surface to turn off the shields; the X-wings trying the same trick is just never considered. And I don't think there's anything in the movies that establishes the X-wings as more maneuverable than the Falcon - we certainly see it outmaneuver Ties more than once despite it's much greater bulk, and it matches an X-wing in escaping the second Death Star. I'm happy to accept that the Falcon has a more precise hyperdrive than the X-wings, whatever their respective merits in dogfights, and even if Poe was willing and able to match it, what about all the other pilots?

It's only brought up when Finn asks about it but it's not like Han is making it up on the fly in that moment, he already had the plan before Finn asked. All the shields info would have been shared between aircrew at the briefing. Nobody embarks on a mission with no plan of how to accomplish it, especially with the fate of the galaxy at stake. That's why it's goofy that the X-wings trying the same trick is never considered.

And I don't think we ever see the Falcon outmaneuvering Ties. The Falcon doesn't have the maneuverability to mix it up like the X-wings do - like Poe does in that one money shot when he takes out 57 Ties in 3.2 seconds proving he's the greatest pilot in the history of both pilots and history. The Falcon never pulls any turns even close to as tight as that. The Falcon is a big old freighter forced to fight with its gun turrets, like a bomber, precisely because it doesn't have the turn radius to ever get on the 6 of a Tie. Unless the pilot is a noob. Or sleeping. Or both.

[Corvinus85]

There is no way every single X-wing pilot was going to pull off that maneuver. It would have been too risky. Plus, the presence of the shields would have limited the X-wing's fighting space above their target.

[HexMachina]

Wouldn't have been the best way to approach a bombing attack either. The Millenium Flacon didn't exactly manage a coordinated landing so I'm not sure it would have been the best idea for the X-wings to launch the attack in that way. They had to strike as quickly as they could