The Kight of the Laughing Tree was Eddard

[purple-eyes]

a little off topic here.

One thing I am glad about the show is that D and D seem not be big fan of Rhaegar and Lyanna. 

they did not repeat how beautiful and awesome Rhaegar is, they deleted the big fanboy of Rhaegar Joncon, they were kind of sarcastical about rhaegar when they wrote the lines about him, they did not emphasize how cersei loved rhaegar (like Aurane waters stuff). And also he ignored him a lot. Just like what they did to Lyanna. There was nothing about Lyanna except her function as Jon's mother. 

In fact, something about KOLT which you guys feel so romantically and heroic and such a key plot for their romance, they did not even bother to mention it. (only one sentence in the blueray history about house reed)

This can prove this plot is really not important at all, not worth to mention in the main show. 

 

 

[purple-eyes]

Ah, so now the godswood sparring is just playing? Interesting that Bran notices that the girl is beating the boy far more than Arya could ever beat him, why do you think this information was included?

And again: no-one claims that this proof that Lyanna trained for certain, but that she could have. If you compare her e.g. with Margaery Tyrell who likes riding, there is no space for any reasonable assumption that Marge might be training with sword or lance secretly. Ask yourself honestly: can you claim the same about Lyanna? And if you cannot, keep asking: why is it so and why did the author include it?

Actually margarey also like riding, hawking, seems quite active outdoors. 

Sansa also know riding and hawking. It is quite standard for all noble girls in middle ages. 

I do not think you can overstrecch to say Lyanna is a secret woman warrior there. 

Oberyn trained his daughters since youth. That is not true with Lyanna. 

 

 

[watcher of the night]

More strawmen?  Do you think that Sansa cannot tell slender from muscular, or that a hero cannot be slender? And no, at sixteen, Loras is not a man, he is repeatedly referred to as a "boy". BTW, when Jaime describes Loras "slim as a sword", he is also getting a wrong impression? Or that Loras himself is not aware of his body type when he says that he couldn't wear Renly's armour because he was taller and broader in the chest?

It is not a strawmen it is an impression. Once again you chosed to ignore the part that does not fit your comparison. Here it is again, this time bolded: Loras is a man, older than Lyanna, had a mentor, trained in his entire life to fight and joust, his devotion to training is outstanding.

 

And what was it that she was doing with Benjen in godswood, embroidery?

So beating up your younger brother with a wooden sword counts as a knightly training?

[purple-eyes]

OK.

so everybody knows how to drive a car (all noble girls), some of them are very good at driving such as Lyanna, ok. this I agree.  

But you tell me Lyanna suddenly enter a formula 1 and beat three professional players?

come on, this is a joke. 

it can happen in fantasy world, sure, but it is not convincing at all. 

 

 

[Winter's Knight]

Yes I know :-) I also know what is a figure of speech. "Slender as reed" is Sansaa 's impression of Loras, nothing more nothing less. She also noted that Loras looked like a "hero" which you conviniently ignore alongside with the other facts that sets apart Loras from Lyanna.

 

 

Ah no, it is Ned who calls him "slender as a reed". Sansa merely refers to the golden roses about his slender waist.

OT: Lyanna unhorsed three not very competent knights, as an excellent horsewoman, in a sport where riding is essential. This is not the absurdity you're making it out to be. Ask yourself: would you be making such a fuss if Lyanna had been a ten year old boy who'd never jousted? 

 

[watcher of the night]

OT: Lyanna unhorsed three not very competent knights, as an excellent horsewoman, in a sport where riding is essential. This is not the absurdity you're making it out to be. Ask yourself: would you be making such a fuss if Lyanna had been a ten year old boy who'd never jousted? 

 

Yes, of course. It would be even more absurd.

[purple-eyes]

Ah no, it is Ned who calls him "slender as a reed". Sansa merely refers to the golden roses about his slender waist.

OT: Lyanna unhorsed three not very competent knights, as an excellent horsewoman, in a sport where riding is essential. This is not the absurdity you're making it out to be. Ask yourself: would you be making such a fuss if Lyanna had been a ten year old boy who'd never jousted? 

 

A 10 year old boy who never jousted can not win either. Can Tommen suddenly join Hand's tourney and beat three knights?

Just like a 14 year old girl who never jousted (as far as we know) can not win. 

you can imagine she disguised herself as a boy and went out to practice and attend tourney and get excellent in jousting and establish herself as champion. 

This is your thinking. not other people's.

 

 

[Kienn]

And like Robert. Apparently, KotLT was Robert.

You know, anyone can produce a booming voice when they want to project their voice over the crowd. Never had a female teacher who could make herself heard without getting shrill?

ah good point.

 

I guess the kotlt could be anyone then. Anyone could have been training to joust in secret.

[Winter's Knight]

Yes I know :-) I also know what is a figure of speech. "Slender as reed" is Sansaa 's impression of Loras, nothing more nothing less. She also noted that Loras looked like a "hero" which you conviniently ignore alongside with the other facts that sets apart Loras from Lyanna.

 

 

Tommen wouldn't win because he's bad at it. Lyanna had excellent riding skills which are extremely important in jousting. 

If her opponents were poor jousters who did not practice-and they do seem to have been less than stellar-then Lyanna beating them is perfectly feasible.

Moreover, the stunt is in character for her, as it would be for Arya.

[Kienn]

If her opponents were poor jousters who did not practice-and they do seem to have been less than stellar

Which part of being champions on the 2nd day makes them seem bad?

 

Lyanna is good with a sword and good with a horse. Both like Jon. That's all her skills in those are meant to indicate.

[purple-eyes]

Tommen wouldn't win because he's bad at it. Lyanna had excellent riding skills which are extremely important in jousting. 

If her opponents were poor jousters who did not practice-and they do seem to have been less than stellar-then Lyanna beating them is perfectly feasible.

Moreover, the stunt is in character for her, as it would be for Arya.

You can drive a car very well, does not mean you can suddenly attend formula 1 and beat three professional players there. 

by your logic, many taxi drivers can beat three F1 players. 

[Weirwood Schmeirwood]

I still find it funny that the exact reason people think Lyanna couldn't be TKOTLT (that she couldn't possibly beat three trained squires) is the exact reason why you're supposed to be so impressed by the accomplishment, and is also basically the exact reason Rhaegar falls in love with her.  She defeated the squires, got no recognition for it because no one knew it was her, and gets crowned the queen of love and beauty by Rhaegar because he knew it.  

[purple-eyes]

I still find it funny that the exact reason people think Lyanna couldn't be TKOTLT (that she couldn't possibly beat three trained squires) is the exact reason why you're supposed to be so impressed and by the accomplishment, and is also basically the exact reason Rhaegar falls in love with her.  She defeated the squires, got no recognition for it because no one knew it was her, and gets crowned the queen of love and beauty by Rhaegar because he knew it.  

to be accurate, they are knights, the master of those squires. 

you do not need to downgrade their ability from knight to squire to persuade other people how awesome Lyanna is. 

[Kienn]

I still find it funny that the exact reason people think Lyanna couldn't be TKOTLT (that she couldn't possibly beat three trained squires) is the exact reason why you're supposed to be so impressed by the accomplishment, and is also basically the exact reason Rhaegar falls in love with her.  She defeated the squires, got no recognition for it because no one knew it was her, and gets crowned the queen of love and beauty by Rhaegar because he knew it.  

There's 2 separate events actually...

1) Lyanna's undisputed beating of 3 squires with a tourney sword.

2) The Knight of the Laughing Tree's defeat of 3 tourney champions - the squires' masters (knights) by jousting.

 

Howland and all of Lyanna's siblings know of her beating the squires since she tells them at dinner. The squires also know, as does anyone who interviewed them later in the search for KotLT - everyone heard the KotLT tell the knights to teach their squires honor. That's how Rhaegar knows about Lyanna, and why he respects/likes her. No need for her to actually be the KotLT herself.

[IceFire125]

Howland and all of Lyanna's siblings know of her beating the squires since she tells them at dinner. The squires also know, as does anyone who interviewed them later in the search for KotLT - everyone heard the KotLT tell the knights to teach their squires honor. That's how Rhaegar knows about Lyanna, and why he respects/likes her. No need for her to actually be the KotLT herself.

GRRM impressed enough hints and doubt regarding that, in my opinion.  He even insert Arya (Lyanna incarnate) in the same thought process for good measure.

“Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night.”
“I never meant to steal you,” he said. “I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat.”
“If you kill a man, and never mean t’, he’s just as dead,” Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever?

 

[Kienn]

GRRM impressed enough hints and doubt regarding that, in my opinion.  He even insert Arya (Lyanna incarnate) in the same thought process for good measure.

“Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night.”
“I never meant to steal you,” he said. “I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat.”
“If you kill a man, and never mean t’, he’s just as dead,” Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever?

 

Being mistaken for a boy is an Arya thing, not a Lyanna thing. Unless you have any single quote of Lyanna ever being mistaken as a boy? Lyanna is more like the mergence of Arya and Sansa. She liked swords... but she still dressed and looked unmistakably feminine.

[Ser Creighton]

I still find it funny that the exact reason people think Lyanna couldn't be TKOTLT (that she couldn't possibly beat three trained squires) is the exact reason why you're supposed to be so impressed by the accomplishment, and is also basically the exact reason Rhaegar falls in love with her.  She defeated the squires, got no recognition for it because no one knew it was her, and gets crowned the queen of love and beauty by Rhaegar because he knew it.  

Really? Well we can give Lyanna all the props in the world, and she rode at rings and had some training and was good on a horse. But first, at best Rhaegar would be infatuated, look I love football but I am not in love with any of the players. Second, Rhaegar did not like jousting he did it because he felt he had too. So it would seem a really odd reason for him to fall in love with a stranger.

The one constant in Rhaegar's story is prophecy and it goes back a lot further than Lyanna. In fact it was prophecy that led him to take up the martial arts.

I don't really question Lyanna as the Knight  in question. I think it makes sense for character. I question the the unknown motivations of Rhaegar.

For Lyanna you have:

Meera holding a great Helm when she first arrives at Winterfell. Which makes little sense for Meera. Though it is Meera who causes a lot of the controversy, it is her remark that it could of been the Crannogman.

Lyanna has been mentioned multiple times for her skill on a horse. In addition Brandon taught her how to ride at rings.

Her Arya comparisons.

The Parallel of Loras who is mentioned as having blue flowers when first we see him only to have those flowers change to red and white. Much the way a blue rose became symbolic of red and white with the sigil of the KotLT. The same way Jon is a blue rose marked by his Wolf who is compared to an old god as both are red and white.

Howland had no skill on a horse and neither Brandon or Ned would need to disguise themselves to defend the honor of their houses. They actually have the right to do that, that is a sworn banner of their house.

Rhaegar on the other hand.

Well we know he was into Prophecy. Very into prophecy.

Weather he could love is put in question by Selmy.

If Robert, the Starks and Arryn's turned down his request for help in removing his father he may have done this as an act of spite. We don't know.

Leaving a wife he cared for but was not in love with is one thing. Leaving your children is another, if you can't love your children enough to protect them, then how much could he love a stranger because she jousted?

Rhaegar did not just leave Elia, he left Lyanna as well. It seems each time he felt he had too.

Rhaegar returned with Elia, and it was then that he witnessed the birth of his son. So even post Harrenhal we know he was focused on prophecy because that is what he talks about at Aegon's birth.

He does not seem to discuss Lyanna with anyone even when marching off to war.

It may be this love story, but Rhaegar and his motivations remain a mystery. I would not doubt that at the tourney of Lannisport he met Maggy and that was right around the time he stopped believing he was the Prince that was promised.

[Wall Flower]

Being mistaken for a boy is an Arya thing, not a Lyanna thing. Unless you have any single quote of Lyanna ever being mistaken as a boy? Lyanna is more like the mergence of Arya and Sansa. She liked swords... but she still dressed and looked unmistakably feminine.

I believe Lyanna is described as boyish in the WOIAF entry on the Tourney of Harrenhall - although that could have been for Cersei's benefit. Kevin Lannister describes her as having a certain wild beauty, so I imagine that she didn't come across like a demure southron lady. The real point is that she may have been mistaken for a boy/young man when dressed in in male attire or armour.

Ser Creighton, I agree that Rhaegar's motivations are obscure on the information we have to-date. If Lyanna was the KOLT, his motivation may have been to acknowledge her actions rather than from any sudden romantic impulse. Just because it was taken as a romantic gesture doesn't mean that was how it was meant.

I feel like there is still a lot to find out about Rhaegar's actions and motivations and big gaps in what we think we know. I'm interested in the fact that we seem to be getting more info on the tense political situation pre-rebellion. There were a number of people with a vested interest in bringing Rhaegar down (including Varys) for example. I do think that prophecy will play a part in events but maybe not in as straightforward a way as Rhaegar running off with Lyanna to successfully create the third head of the dragon.

[RedShirt47]

I just don't understand why people believe the impossible (Ned is not slight and wouldn't use a disguise) rather than the highly improbable (Lyanna, not likely but possible). Can someone please explain why they prefer an impossible solution to a mystery?

[Kienn]

I just don't understand why people believe the impossible (Ned is not slight and wouldn't use a disguise) rather than the highly improbable (Lyanna, not likely but possible). Can someone please explain why they prefer an impossible solution to a mystery?

Yawn...

Jon was slender

 Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him.