Why did not Oberyn legitimize and marry Ellaria?

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

If a highborn man marries a bastard woman, does the woman get to assume the man's family name?

[Silvana]

Because that would mean going to the Baratheon king and asking for a favor.

It would be a high boon to ask of Robert, and given Dorne's opinion of him, it seems quite a lot to ask for a relatively pointless favour.

[Silvana]

If a highborn man marries a bastard woman, does the woman get to assume the man's family name?

AFAIK, no. Though I'm a little sketchy on this, so perhaps ask in the Small Questions thread?

[Jaak]

To boot, it would be necessary to have the king legitimize the bastards. I don't see that happening given how the monarchy feels about Dorne.

Is it, though? Dorne has special deal, including Dornish law and title of Prince. Has Prince of Dorne also kept the right to legitimate bastards?

[Silvana]

Is it, though? Dorne has special deal, including Dornish law and title of Prince. Has Prince of Dorne also kept the right to legitimate bastards?

A fair point. I'm unsure about it, but you very well could be right. I'll look into it! It's food for thought.

[Falcon2908]

yeah, but I am sure ellaria would be happy to become his lawful wife and her four children would become Martell. 

Yes, but wouldn't you need the King's permission for that? The Martells and the Iron throne were not on speaking terms after the civil war

[dywalgi]

Easy  She's not legitimized, because it doesn't make a big difference to her status -- as the acknowledged lover and favourite of a prince (and the brother of the ruling prince), that pretty much gives her a practical status above everyone in Dorne saving the strongest nobles.  Legitimacy doesn't matter at that point.

Why they're not married is even easier.  So long as Oberyn remains unmarried, Doran can dangle the possibility of marrying into the ruling family of Dorne as bait for any ambitious lords with eligible daughters.  Less likely but equally valuable, he has marriage-to-Oberyn as a card he can play outside of Dorne as well -- even though the man has an established and unlikely-to-go-away lover, he's still a valuable match to someone hoping to get a military or economic alliance that's cemented with a marriage.

Marrying the mother of his daughters wouldn't make sense in terms of court politics, and she (and they) don't seem to be overly upset about the arrangement.

[TimJames]

Oberyn does not have the authority to legitimize bastards: only Kings are allowed to do that. Apart from that, there is no reason to legitimize Ellaria. That she spends her time hanging with Oberyn suggests that she is not interested in ruling Hellholt (and that she is fine letting her trueborn half-siblings inherit). Even if she was Harmen's only child, that would be fine too as Dornish Inheritance Law still counts bastards in the inheritance (though they come last in the line of succession [example: if The Starks were based in Dorne, then Jon Snow would be in the line of succession but would come after Rickon Stark].

As for why Oberyn never married Ellaria, he probably remained single in the off-chance that his brother Doran Martell needed to use him to secure an alliance. This comes up in the story, as Tywin tries arranging a marriage between Cersei and Oberyn. If Oberyn is married to a bastard, than he can't be used to secure a marriage alliance House Martell needs.

[King of the Narrow Sea]

Another point of contention might simply be that while no one cares that Oberyn has a paramour, which is all Ellaria is no matter how many daughters she gives him, is that if he were to marry at all then it would look bad that he married her instead of some significant marriage as befits his high birth. Him not marrying anybody doesn't anger anybody as they can't object that he's staying single.

No one bats an eye that he's keeping a paramour or making bastards left and right, and no one would probably bat an eye that he's still keeping her as his paramour if he were married to someone in some loveless arranged marriage that's at least producing legitimate children, but marrying this bastard instead of anybody else? That's a problem because now this bastard's children with Oberyn will be Martells and "better" than everybody else as they'll all be highborns despite only being one step removed from bastardy themselves.

If Oberyn isn't going to be dutiful and marry who the head of House Martell tells him to for the betterment of the family, then let him not be dutiful at all. No one can complain that their family is being denied the chance to marry Oberyn and into the Martell family and create alliances, or that some 1 generation removed bastard is their social better, if Oberyn isn't marrying anybody and is keeping his playboy status open no matter how many years he's been with Ellaria.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Because that would mean going to the Baratheon king and asking for a favor.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner! 

Maybe Oberyn was waiting for King Viserys to make him that little favor

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Legitimizing and marrying Elaria would legitimize only Oberyn's younger daughters. Why would he treat them different?

Oberyn doesn't marry Elaria because they both don't live not in our world but theirs and know the need to make alliances via marriages and Oberyn's hand is a big fish to catch. Wasn't he considered to marry Cersei? The reason for paramours to exist is that they provide love in a relationship based on duty only.

[purple-eyes]

Legitimizing and marrying Elaria would legitimize only Oberyn's younger daughters. Why would he treat them different?

Oberyn doesn't marry Elaria because they both don't live not in our world but theirs and know the need to make alliances via marriages and Oberyn's hand is a big fish to catch. Wasn't he considered to marry Cersei? The reason for paramours to exist is that they provide love in a relationship based on duty only.

talking about this, I recently saw that, in middle ages, it was thought that it is impossible to have love within marriage because the nature of marriage means obligations and responsibility so it contradicts with the nature of love: love somebody totally freely without obligations. as a spouse, you feel obligated to love your spouse, then this love is not free any more. so they thought once two lovers became husband and wife, then their love just died. No love in marriage. 

[Burning down the House]

If the Oberyn's children are legitimized one day they could challenge for Sunspear.  Having too many heirs is as dangerous as too few.  The Martell line is more than secure with Doran's three children are Elia's two.  Have we learned nothing from the Blackfyre's?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

talking about this, I recently saw that, in middle ages, it was thought that it is impossible to have love within marriage because the nature of marriage means obligations and responsibility so it contradicts with the nature of love: love somebody totally freely without obligations. as a spouse, you feel obligated to love your spouse, then this love is not free any more. so they thought once two lovers became husband and wife, then their love just died. No love in marriage. 

Love was possible, but marriages in older times had different needs and obeyed different rules, and they were very different even from the arranged marriages of our modern times (because those still exist).

Marriages were treated as contracts: they were negotiated. And it wasn't for example, Ned marrying Cat, but Ned of House Stark marrying Cat of House Tully: their marriage meant those two Houses were going to be bounded by legal arranges and also via blood once children were born. This would make such Houses allies and friends, which was useful in times of war or need.

And, even if for us it sounds appalling that people would marry for reasons that weren't about themselves, it was normal for them: they didn't see marriage as something that meant self-fulfilment but as an obligation that would benefit many other people instead. The concept of marriage was totally different, as they worked to keep the alliance alive and not necessarily to have a loving relationship.

This is the kind of society in which Oberyn and Elaria lived. Marriages were not for love, and even the common folk made arrangements before marrying a daughter. I'm sure Elaria knew well that Oberyn was needed to eventually marry House Martell to any needed ally. Yet, her relationship existed to give Oberyn was he wasn't going to get in his marriage: love.

 

[purple-eyes]

Love was possible, but marriages in older times had different needs and obeyed different rules, and they were very different even from the arranged marriages of our modern times (because those still exist).

Marriages were treated as contracts: they were negotiated. And it wasn't for example, Ned marrying Cat, but Ned of House Stark marrying Cat of House Tully: their marriage meant those two Houses were going to be bounded by legal arranges and also via blood once children were born. This would make such Houses allies and friends, which was useful in times of war or need.

And, even if for us it sounds appalling that people would marry for reasons that weren't about themselves, it was normal for them: they didn't see marriage as something that meant self-fulfilment but as an obligation that would benefit many other people instead. The concept of marriage was totally different, as they worked to keep the alliance alive and not necessarily to have a loving relationship.

This is the kind of society in which Oberyn and Elaria lived. Marriages were not for love, and even the common folk made arrangements before marrying a daughter. I'm sure Elaria knew well that Oberyn was needed to eventually marry House Martell to any needed ally. Yet, her relationship existed to give Oberyn was he wasn't going to get in his marriage: love.

 

this is the point. if they are in love, it is probably better to get married and make their children as legit martells,which would be good for their future. In the new chapter, based on what Elia said, it is not something she like to be a bastard. 

 

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

this is the point. if they are in love, it is probably better to get married and make their children as legit martells,which would be good for their future. In the new chapter, based on what Elia said, it is not something she like to be a bastard. 

 

 

What would be the benefit of marrying Elia's House? I would benefit her father, not Doran or Dorne at all.

[dywalgi]

@purple-eyes:  You keep using words like "better" without any context, and assuming that your own (presumably modern) views are cultural absolutes that can be applied to everyone, including the inhabitants of a fictional universe.  Ultimately, in terms of how the fictional universe functions, the text triumphs and our own personal views and values have precisely zero value when it comes to predicting or evaluating how things work within that world.  Marriage among the noble elite in asoiaf (and most of human history) has absolutely nothing at all to do with love.  At all.  It might develop into that, but that is not the reason that marriages take place outside of songs and stories for children.  In this particular example, we have been given evidence, over and over, about Dornish culture and its relatively enlightened views on bastardy and polyamory that comes directly from the text, as well as many reasons why Oberyn and Ellaria are not behaving in a manner that suits our own cultural norms, but rather in a way that makes sense to the political, emotional, and cultural context that they exist within.

[purple-eyes]

@purple-eyes:  You keep using words like "better" without any context, and assuming that your own (presumably modern) views are cultural absolutes that can be applied to everyone, including the inhabitants of a fictional universe.  Ultimately, in terms of how the fictional universe functions, the text triumphs and our own personal views and values have precisely zero value when it comes to predicting or evaluating how things work within that world.  Marriage among the noble elite in asoiaf (and most of human history) has absolutely nothing at all to do with love.  At all.  It might develop into that, but that is not the reason that marriages take place outside of songs and stories for children.  In this particular example, we have been given evidence, over and over, about Dornish culture and its relatively enlightened views on bastardy and polyamory that comes directly from the text, as well as many reasons why Oberyn and Ellaria are not behaving in a manner that suits our own cultural norms, but rather in a way that makes sense to the political, emotional, and cultural context that they exist within.

but in this world we have a lot of love marriages too. 

Kind of different from real history. 

You know, just like his brother doran. 

[Jaak]

 Even if she was Harmen's only child, that would be fine too as Dornish Inheritance Law still counts bastards in the inheritance (though they come last in the line of succession [example: if The Starks were based in Dorne, then Jon Snow would be in the line of succession but would come after Rickon Stark].

Where are we told that?

Do Sand Snakes come before the trueborn Manfryd Martell?