Winds update (not a blog)

[Ser Jampot]

 

I'd argue each volume is a continuation of the same story. Some sections were just better paced.

correct. However I'd argue your pacing differs from another readers. 

[sifth]

correct. However I'd argue your pacing differs from another readers. 

Hey if you thought ADWD was perfectly paced cheers to you. I however was not a fan of Tyrion doing nothing on a boat with Penny for two chapters and Jon preparing for an Others attack that never came.

[Gogossos]

Disappointed but maybe this is a good thing. The show will spoil major plot points but not all. The majority of fans who only wanted to read the books in order to get spoilers will melt into the ether and when GRRM finally publishes his book, the noise will have died down. Maybe then we might really savour the books in their detailed glory, without the hordes to drown conversations.

[Ser Jampot]

 

Hey if you thought ADWD was perfectly paced cheers to you. I however was not a fan of Tyrion doing nothing on a boat with Penny for two chapters and Jon preparing for an Others attack that never came.

just say that in the first place. Nothing to do with pacing just narrative. I thought it was a really good book including those moments :)

[Good Guy Garlan]

The show easily could have made two seasons out of AFfC/ADwD if they had actually adapted those rather giving us a ridiculous travesty. There would have been problems, of course, but they could have been resolved or worked around.

I'd really like to know how do you picture those two seasons, no sarcasm, because when I try all I can imagine is this:

Oh, I'm sorry, I meant that what I picture was this:

- Two seasons of Tyrion walking and not meeting Dany

- Two seasons of Brienne walking and not finding Sansa

- Two seasons of Jaime walking and only briefly meeting Brienne at the very end of season six

- Two seasons of Sam not reaching Oldtown

- Two (three!) seasons of Dany being in Meereen

- Two seasons of Jon doing nothing at the Wall

- Two seasons of Stannis not reaching Winterfell

- Two seasons of an Arya training montage

- 3 Bran, Sansa and Davos chapters spread out into two seasons

Etc

How anyone could honestly believe this would make good television is just baffling to me. You just can't work around the simple fact that there's not enough material to adapt. 

[Jay Rags]

first of all, everyone chill.

The single biggest reason why George RR Martin is unproductive is because of the Internet.

He, along with all of us, waste too many hours each day surfing the freaking internet. Nothing gets done. Years pass. 

 

[Jay Rags]

The seed is strong.

[Gryz the BlackSmith]

This is exactly what I'm thinking.

It's unbelievable that nobody has told GRRM what they thought exactly, during the last 5 years. I bet a lot of people have been thinking: "George, if you don't take this seriously, you're gonna mess up your books, your reputation and your legacy. Beyond recognition". George had the opportunity to write the first fantasy series since LotR that people would accept as true literature. That opportunity is gone now. Asoiaf will be "that series that was never properly finished". Forever.

Is that what fame does ? People not daring to talk to you honestly ? D&D, HBO, his publisher, many people and companies have serious stakes in Asoiaf. And nobody told him in 2013 and 2014: "George, stop messing around. Stop going to cons, postpone your traveling, forget about the puppies, don't edit or write any other books. Just focus and finish TWOW and ADOS. And do it before 2016. No more procrastinating". Nobody had the guts to do that ?

It's the biggest cluster-fuck in modern literature.

Most of us knew it anyway but the party is well and truly over.

I've met a lot of GRRM types in my professional career.  They are great at starting something but need others to help them finish otherwise they end up starting several projects and finishing none of them.  Then when the pressure is on they flounder even more and don't deliver at all.

I know it is macabre and I know it's disrespectful to the author.  But he is never going to finish these books.  He has created a vast monster he is unable to tame.  Let's be honest he is procrastinating.  He has done so since 2001.  The last two books were nowhere near of the same quality as the first three and took ages to write.  This was before the distraction of fame.  He is lost.  And these books will never be finished.

If he can't write at pace in his 50's and 60's then there is no chance he can write at pace in his 70's or 80's and there is every possibility that he won't make it that far anyway or, as is common in older people (especially those pushing themselves too hard), he will have health complications that will stop him being able to write the book even if his mind is still sharp.

Watch the show guys.  It's the only closure you're going to get on this story unless GRRM relaxes his rule of allowing someone else to finish the novels should he be unable to do so.  And I believe he should do so.  GRRM is not our bitch, but we are not his either.  The moment he decided to share the world it became part of the public domain.  It's no longer just his and he is being an arrogant **** to those of us who have invested 20ish years and money on this journey only for him to say if he dies the books won't be finished.

He brought all of this on himself.  Hand the writing over George.  And do it whilst you're alive.  Because you aren't going to finish.  You probably won't even finish TWOW.

[Lord Varys]

[stuff]

There are plot points the show could have adapted if the guys had wanted to. The Kingsmoot, the actual Dorne plotline, the Aegon story, the actual Jaime-Cersei dynamic and the subsequent Riverlands campaign.

Sure, they would have been forced to invent new scenes/plotlines to fir into the TV format, and they would also have to adapt (i.e. change) stuff for budget reasons, but people traveling a lot isn't necessarily a bad thing. Arya effectively goes nowhere both in books and show for, well, seasons/volumes and they still sort of adapted that, didn't they?

[kimim]

I'd really like to know how do you picture those two seasons, no sarcasm, because when I try all I can imagine is this:

Oh, I'm sorry, I meant that what I picture was this:

- Two seasons of Tyrion walking and not meeting Dany

- Two seasons of Brienne walking and not finding Sansa

- Two seasons of Jaime walking and only briefly meeting Brienne at the very end of season six

- Two seasons of Sam not reaching Oldtown

- Two (three!) seasons of Dany being in Meereen

- Two seasons of Jon doing nothing at the Wall

- Two seasons of Stannis not reaching Winterfell

- Two seasons of an Arya training montage

- 3 Bran, Sansa and Davos chapters spread out into two seasons

Etc

How anyone could honestly believe this would make good television is just baffling to me. You just can't work around the simple fact that there's not enough material to adapt. 

- Tyrion meets turtles. I sobbed upon figuring out that the exciting turtle episodes were edited out, along with Lemore's boobs.

- Brienne agonizes! The show cut all that out, and had her meet Sandor. She actually fought him without too much internal monologue, without worrying about her appearance, without worrying about anything, really. Such disrespect for women.

- Jaime solves not one, but two sieges. tbh, I think he should have solved a siege instead of going to Dorne. Dorne is cursed, in both show and novels.

- ...but Sam has sex with Gilly, whose claim to fame is her unparallelled ability to sob while lactating. The show cut all that milky, tearful goodness out. The show, in its infinite hatred of women, actually turned Gilly into someone who has something to say. As a female, I was horrified.

- but Dany does things. I think. Chapter after chapter, she lusts after Daario, she worries about the harpy, she hears about people who want to sell themselves into slavery. Then she marries Hizdahr, which comes to nothing, as her dragon ex machina whisks her off. I mean...how dare the show shorten this brilliant story? We need every second of Dany's indecisiveness spelled out for us, or all is lost. Misogyny is a terrible thing.

- Jon counts bags of beans!!!!!! That was important. He also finds just the right rooms for Selyse and her people. How dare the show send him off to Hardhome to fight the wights? Without Jon, how did Selyse find a place to sleep? I mean...horrible. Just horrible.

 

[Ser Knute]

 

Hey if you thought ADWD was perfectly paced cheers to you. I however was not a fan of Tyrion doing nothing on a boat with Penny for two chapters and Jon preparing for an Others attack that never came.

I can understand your reasoning, but I didn't mind those chapters at all.

Both D&D and GRRM share some blame.  D&D had plenty of material to draw on for 5 seasons, they chose to cut plenty that could've served as filler scenes or even plot arcs of a minor nature.  Given the general response of the fandom, the Dornish plot as well as Stannis's plot diversions didn't exactly inspire, the source material might have been a little less dramatic but certainly would have been able to stretch into a full season or more.

Now I certainly understand things can be cut and some for good reasons, but changes like the lack of prominence to the BWB, Quentyn being removed entirely, Gendry STILL rowing, Sansa for Jeyne Poole, no Ironborn etc., all make for some sloppiness on their part leading to the current state of the adaptation.

I'll be happy when it's out, bitching about hypotheticals won't make it arrive sooner.

I agree with George, enjoy them both for what they are.

I'd rather GRRM take his time than rushing it and getting something like what D&D have done with parts of the story... 

[Jay Rags]

I don't believe any of us have a right to criticize here.

George RR Martin's works are not ours, they are his.

He is creating epic fantasy that will live for hundreds of years. Epic in the truest sense.

A few months or years delayed is insignificant in the grand scheme of things. 

Take your time George. Take as much time as you need. 

Just stay off the internet! You will waste too much time and energy and be depleted after! We are not authors, we are bloggers! Pay no mind!

[ChillyPolly]

Not surprising, but not encouraging either.  

The closest thing to an update is that he now has "dozens" of chapters written.  At bare minimum that means at least 24 chapters, I suppose.  Which probably translates to at least 500 pages, I suppose.  That does not tell us much, but it is more than we knew before (which was 200 pages in "a more or less finished state"; with 168 pages submitted to his publisher).  There is some grounds for hope that it is even more than that, I suppose, but then, why so vague? 

Those speculating that he must be close to completion because completion is "months" ahead "if the writing goes well", are not reading things right, IMHO.  It really is possible to get alot done in a few months "if the writing goes well".  A hundred pages a month (or more) is hardly unreasonable "if the writing goes well".  And publishing when you reach only 1000 pages (or less) is hardly unreasonable when you're rushing to stay ahead of the spoilers on HBO.

But the writing has not been going well.  Why should we expect that to change?

This update is even less hopeful and positive than the one he gave for DANCE in February 19, 2009, and is nothing compared to the hopeful updates he was giving in early 2010, when publication of DANCE was still well over a year away.

 

[The scourge of westeros]

I'd really like to know how do you picture those two seasons, no sarcasm, because when I try all I can imagine is this:

Oh, I'm sorry, I meant that what I picture was this:

- Two seasons of Tyrion walking and not meeting Dany

- Two seasons of Brienne walking and not finding Sansa

- Two seasons of Jaime walking and only briefly meeting Brienne at the very end of season six

- Two seasons of Sam not reaching Oldtown

- Two (three!) seasons of Dany being in Meereen

- Two seasons of Jon doing nothing at the Wall

- Two seasons of Stannis not reaching Winterfell

- Two seasons of an Arya training montage

- 3 Bran, Sansa and Davos chapters spread out into two seasons

Etc

How anyone could honestly believe this would make good television is just baffling to me. You just can't work around the simple fact that there's not enough material to adapt. 

they forget it's not HBO's job to cater to an author once they have already purchased his work. It's the author's obligation to finish said material

[Westeros Luftwaffe]

George locked the comments. It seemed like 99% were the usual supportive ones for him. Maybe he just needed a pick-me-up from the "woe is me" attitude he had on that post. Heck, I hope so, maybe he'll go off and write a couple dozen pages.

 

[sifth]

I'd really like to know how do you picture those two seasons, no sarcasm, because when I try all I can imagine is this:

Oh, I'm sorry, I meant that what I picture was this:

- Two seasons of Tyrion walking and not meeting Dany

- Two seasons of Brienne walking and not finding Sansa

- Two seasons of Jaime walking and only briefly meeting Brienne at the very end of season six

- Two seasons of Sam not reaching Oldtown

- Two (three!) seasons of Dany being in Meereen

- Two seasons of Jon doing nothing at the Wall

- Two seasons of Stannis not reaching Winterfell

- Two seasons of an Arya training montage

- 3 Bran, Sansa and Davos chapters spread out into two seasons

Etc

How anyone could honestly believe this would make good television is just baffling to me. You just can't work around the simple fact that there's not enough material to adapt. 

I don't agree with all of the changes D & D made, but you made some really good points. There's no way most of Tyrion, Jon, Dany, Sam or Brienne's arcs would have worked on tv. They don't really work very well in the books either, IMO.

 

It's just a shame they couldn't fit the Iron Born into more of the show. I have a really hard time even remembering they exist.

[Ser Jampot]

I don't agree with all of the changes D & D made, but you made some really good points. There's no way most of Tyrion, Jon, Dany, Sam or Brienne's arcs would have worked on tv. They don't really work very well in the books either, IMO.

 

It's just a shame they couldn't fit the Iron Born into more of the show. I have a really hard time even remembering they exist.

why don't you throw pacing in there for good measure?  

visually tyrions journey and dialogue would have been good on a show during the boat trip. People like things done well tho and I doubt d&d are capable. 

[sifth]

why don't you throw pacing in there for good measure?  

visually tyrions journey and dialogue would have been good on a show during the boat trip. People like things done well tho and I doubt d&d are capable. 

The pacing was a mess though. There were dozens of chapters of Tyrion doing nothing and the plot not advancing.

[NeutralStargaryen]

I 'think' I'll watch season 6 before TWoW publishes mainly for the reason that I don't want to stumble upon a spoiler Im attempting to not see or read. But I'm curious if anyone has a opinion of the cover for TWoW that he posted! It's very intriguing to me!! 

[Wilnova]

I remember reading a blog post when ADwD came out, with the writer saying that the books and plots have grown too big for GRRM to ever finish them and that seems to be coming true now. I guess that's the problem with being a gardener and adding in new characters and sub plots. Its going to increasingly complicate the setting and make it harder to finish. if GRRM had stuck to his original main characters and stories he would have finished. The show wisely (And due to time and money limits) decided to stick to the few characters that actually matter to the ending. Look at his blog post

Just consider. Mago, Irri, Rakharo, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, Pyat Pree, Pyp, Grenn, Ser Barristan Selmy, Queen Selyse, Princess Shireen, Princess Myrcella, Mance Rayder, and King Stannis are all dead in the show, alive in the books. Some of them will die in the books as well, yes... but not all of them, and some may die at different times in different ways. Balon Greyjoy, on the flip side, is dead in the books, alive on the show. His brothers Euron Crow's Eye and Victarion have not yet been introduced (will they appear? I ain't saying). Meanwhile Jhiqui, Aggo, Jhogo, Jeyne Poole, Dalla (and her child) and her sister Val, Princess Arianne Martell, Prince Quentyn Martell, Willas Tyrell, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Lord Wyman Manderly, the Shavepate, the Green Grace, Brown Ben Plumm, the Tattered Prince, Pretty Meris, Bloodbeard, Griff and Young Griff, and many more have never been part of the show, yet remain characters in the books.

Like does anyone really care about what happens to Mago, Irri, Rakharo etc in the books? I don't even remember who the hell Bloodbeard is! I don't care about Jhiqui and Aggo or pretty Meris. I don't think it was necessary to introduce FAegon this late in the books, but maybe that was needed to have some kind of Dance of Dragons when Dany finally gets to Westeros. The books are just frustrating at this point. AFfC was a total waste of paper. I thought ADwD was much better with the important Northern plotting and Jon preparing the wall for an attack from the Others, things that we got on the show and will probably get next season.

Martin needs to start killing off characters and POVs and start streamlining his stories. Fast. And stop worrying about what to do with Irri and Jhiqui.