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Winds update (not a blog)


TheLightning Lord

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Rowling and Tolkien are both fiction writers who wrote very popular and influential fantasy novels. GRRM is also a fiction writer who wrote several very popular and influential fantasy novels. Unlike GRRM, however, they finished their most famous works before the adaptations. That's the main comparison.

In terms of how people categorise and respond, they're somewhat similar.  Yes, that does happen, but that's what I'm saying is odd.  In terms of what they actually produce, they're entirely different.  I just can't see how anyone can read Philosopher's Stone, Lord of the Rings and A Game of Thrones and think "Yeah, these are similar works."  

Absolutely. Rowling (as Martin has explicitly admitted) is also interesting as a directly comparable, contemporary example of how and how not to deal with an internet megafandom. Lemony Snicket, for example, is another (personally I find his (Daniel Handler's) approach the most endearing, though it hasn't pushed his world celebrity in the same way).

Two popular writers in an internet age so they're dealing with some of the same issues, yeah.  So for this announcement and whatnot it makes sense to bring her up.  But that wasn't what was going on in that particular discussion, which, as I was reading it, related to apparent similarities in the works.  

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Rowling's world-building is far skimpier than Martin's. And Martin is a much better writer, IMHO (I'm not saying that Rowling is a bad writer, either).

 

Tolkien took 15 years to write LOTR, which is a quarter of the length of what Martin's published so far, so good writing takes time.

 

 

Tolkien took 15 years to write LOTR but unlike GRRM, he wrote in his spare time when he wasn't teaching.

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Tolkien took 15 years to write LOTR but unlike GRRM, he wrote in his spare time when he wasn't teaching.

It also wasn't part of a series.  A sequel, yes, but The Hobbit was originally intended as a standalone title and is perfectly self-contained.  

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Rowling's world-building is far skimpier than Martin's. And Martin is a much better writer, IMHO (I'm not saying that Rowling is a bad writer, either).

 

Tolkien took 15 years to write LOTR, which is a quarter of the length of what Martin's published so far, so good writing takes time.

Twelve years. Also, the Professor had a full time job, while GRRM is a professional writer.

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Too bad for you, because the last 4 episodes of Season 5 were the best run of episodes the series has had so far.

Well the forums I frequent would disagree with you. Yes, the battle of Hardhome programme was good, and I did watch part of the battle on YouTube, but the general consensus was that the entire series was poor, badly written, and the ending infuriatingly pathetic, having been signalled with doom laden looks from someone who should be a minor character, for weeks.

Most people seemed to think that the entire series was a let down, and certainly I agreed for the first four episodes, which were very dull, and were heading in a direction which, not only did I not want to participate in, made no logical sense to the story either. Too many players doing stupid things totally outside their characters. Judging by what many forum members said about each episode after it aired, I think I made the right decision.

I will watch what people are saying on the forums next year, if it looks as though season 6 is worth watching, I'll renew my NowTV sub and start watching again, if it's rubbish, like the last series, I won't. I'll let the others do the watching and learn what happens to the story from their forum posts.

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Too bad for you, because the last 4 episodes of Season 5 were the best run of episodes the series has had so far.

...are you serious? The Burning of Shireen, Brienne straight up murdering an unarmed man, Tyrion's laughable introduction to Dany, Bad Pussy were some of the best the series had to offer? Really?

And I haven't even begun to mention the lionisation of Ramsey or how the death of the dogkeeper's daughter was portrayed as revenge for Sansa.

Season five was terrible and the idea that the same writers will be adapting tWoW makes me ill.

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Well the forums I frequent would disagree with you. Yes, the battle of Hardhome programme was good, and I did watch part of the battle on YouTube, but the general consensus was that the entire series was poor, badly written, and the ending infuriatingly pathetic, having been signalled with doom laden looks from someone who should be a minor character, for weeks.

Most people seemed to think that the entire series was a let down, and certainly I agreed for the first four episodes, which were very dull, and were heading in a direction which, not only did I not want to participate in, made no logical sense to the story either. Too many players doing stupid things totally outside their characters. Judging by what many forum members said about each episode after it aired, I think I made the right decision.

I will watch what people are saying on the forums next year, if it looks as though season 6 is worth watching, I'll renew my NowTV sub and start watching again, if it's rubbish, like the last series, I won't. I'll let the others do the watching and learn what happens to the story from their forum posts.

Actually, those negative opinions are only popular on certain self-reinforcing forums.  They certainly don't reflect popular or critical opinion.  "Most people" is an illusion.  But it's fine.  Everyone sees things differently.  Sorry you couldn't enjoy it like I did. 

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Well the forums I frequent would disagree with you. Yes, the battle of Hardhome programme was good, and I did watch part of the battle on YouTube, but the general consensus was that the entire series was poor, badly written, and the ending infuriatingly pathetic, having been signalled with doom laden looks from someone who should be a minor character, for weeks.

Most people seemed to think that the entire series was a let down, and certainly I agreed for the first four episodes, which were very dull, and were heading in a direction which, not only did I not want to participate in, made no logical sense to the story either. Too many players doing stupid things totally outside their characters. Judging by what many forum members said about each episode after it aired, I think I made the right decision.

I will watch what people are saying on the forums next year, if it looks as though season 6 is worth watching, I'll renew my NowTV sub and start watching again, if it's rubbish, like the last series, I won't. I'll let the others do the watching and learn what happens to the story from their forum posts.

If by general consensus you mean 5 people who regurgitate the same posts every few minutes then yes.

On the other hand, this season won an Emmy for best drama, on IMDb the highest rated episode of the show is from this season, it has a 91/100 on Metacritic, and going by ratings it is the most watched season of the show. So if we're talking about consensus between audiences, critics, and award shows, then this season has been received with universal acclaim.

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Actually, those negative opinions are only popular on certain self-reinforcing forums.  They certainly don't reflect popular or critical opinion.  "Most people" is an illusion.  But it's fine.  Everyone sees things differently.  Sorry you couldn't enjoy it like I did. 

I think there must be something terribly wrong when violent rape and the burning alive of a little girl is accepted as 'entertainment', not to mention all the illogical events that had 'shock' value and yet more pointless killing off of main characters that aren't dead in the books.

I made my own mind up taking into account what several forums members thought, and reading the precis of each episode on this site.  There were a lot of story lines I simply didn't want to see, which made no literary sense, and were clearly only there for some warped S&M shock value.

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I think there must be something terribly wrong when violent rape and the burning alive of a little girl is accepted as 'entertainment', not to mention all the illogical events that had 'shock' value and yet more pointless killing off of main characters that aren't dead in the books.

I made my own mind up taking into account what several forums members thought, and reading the precis of each episode on this site.  There were a lot of story lines I simply didn't want to see, which made no literary sense, and were clearly only there for some warped S&M shock value.

ADWD had violent rape and bestiality. Horrible events are just the norm for Martin's universe.

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sWhy are people even comparing Rowling to Martin?  They write nothing that's even remotely similar.  

Tolkien's works are appreciated by those who enjoy the classics and the myths of other cultures and the way he engaged with them.  As far as I'm concerned, The Silmarillion is his greatest creation, uncompleted (necessarily) as it was.  But again, he has next to nothing in common with Martin.

Try comparing his world with the Malazan Empire world then, that Steven Erikson created with Ian Campbell Esslemont. That's much much larger than Westeros by far, and yet he's managed to turn out TEN books, the shortest of which is over 600 pages, most being between 800-1000 pages long, the longest being 1230, since the series started in 1999, with the maximum length of time between books being two years. That particular series is now complete. Campbell Esslemont also started writing and has turned out another 6 books  since 2007.

I'm afraid the work rate of GRRM doesn't compare, even to writers that are working on a world far more complex than his.

 

 

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I think there must be something terribly wrong when violent rape and the burning alive of a little girl is accepted as 'entertainment', not to mention all the illogical events that had 'shock' value and yet more pointless killing off of main characters that aren't dead in the books.

I made my own mind up taking into account what several forums members thought, and reading the precis of each episode on this site.  There were a lot of story lines I simply didn't want to see, which made no literary sense, and were clearly only there for some warped S&M shock value.

I have a friend, who didn't read the books, and she said that the most disgusting scene she saw on television was Cersei's walk, and it shamed her as a jew and as a woman to see this scene. But for a lot of book readers that scene is fine I guess, so let's not be hypocrites about one scene that hasn't happened in the books and one that has.

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Try comparing his world with the Malazan Empire world then, that Steven Erikson created with Ian Campbell Esslemont. That's much much larger than Westeros by far, and yet he's managed to turn out TEN books, the shortest of which is over 600 pages, most being between 800-1000 pages long, the longest being 1230, since the series started in 1999, with the maximum length of time between books being two years. That particular series is now complete. Campbell Esslemont also started writing and has turned out another 6 books  since 2007.

I'm afraid the work rate of GRRM doesn't compare, even to writers that are working on a world far more complex than his.

I'm glad you brought up Malazan: It's the perfect example of what happens when writers choose quantity over quality. Trudging through that unreadable sludge is a great way to learn to appreciate George's gardening approach.

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Oh, come on.

The show could have gotten two seasons out of Dance and Feast. They just didn't want to: that's why they cut many important plots.

Seriously, rant all you want, but "nothing" happens in those books?

Siege of Riverrun with annoying Freys
Stannis' campaign
Northern Conspiracy
Sam in Braavos
Jon making the Wildlings cross the Wall
"death things in the water"
The Kingsmoot
Greyjoys attacking the Reach
Victarion travelling to Meereen
Dany facing battle to Meereen and Yunkai
Tyrion meeting the Griffs
Tyrion being kidnapped
Tyrion being part of a sellsword company
Quentyn meeting Dany
Quentyn "taming" a Dragon
Barristan preparing Meereen for battle.
Aegon landing in the Stormlands
Griffs taking the Stormlands
Arianne's plot to crown Myrcella

And that's just the parts they decided to not include.

You thought those parts were not interesting enough? Then it was THEIR JOB to make them appealing for tv audiences.

Really, that's enough material for two years, and I'm sure Martin actually thought so. D&d just didn't bother.

 

I agree it sounds like GRRM thought he had more time and that HBO could have made another season to come up to date with the last book.

Reading his blog he does sound like he thought he could complete the book to the deadlines he has set, but I think that depended on everything he wrote being both high quality and credible in his own mind. That has not happened and he has been rewriting and once that happens, and it is very common, then all bets must be off, or you are just a hack writing to a deadline, or a journalist as GRRM states if you will. So GRRM has made the correct and integrity-driven decision to give no more deadlines and will write it at his own pace.

The danger is not that GRRM cannot complete the books but that he will not complete the books because he cannot find the right way to tell his story and end it. I think he will find a way, he will find his truth, but it may take years.

As for the show, aside from Dorne and Sansa, the rest of it is fine. Stannis is really dead, as many of us predicted, and Jon, Aria, Cersei, Tyrion, the return of the Greyjoys, the Siege of Riverrun, will all make for a good season still. 

 

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Feast and Dance could not have taken 2 seasons and been watchable or make sense.

However, that is largely irrelevant to GRRM not being close to finishing The Winds of Winter.  It is not the show's fault, it is the fault of George RR Martin and nobody else.

If he can't get Winds out in FIVE YEARS, when he has allegedly solved all of the alleged problems that he alleged were the reason for the 5 and 6 year waits for Feast and Dance, then I cannot see how he can possibly be expected to finish the series.  At this point, I feel its a long shot that he gets Winds out before HBO finishes the series.  

 

Maybe once the HBO show is over and there is no more pressure or publicity and the interest in his books drops off drastically, he can get the book out.  As for finishing the series, it's now a huge long shot.  Huge.

 

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