TheLightning Lord

Winds update (not a blog)

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Honestly, just to hear that GRRM is making lots of progress on the novel and that, even if he is not finished, he thought it possible by Halloween, is more than anything I could have asked for. I'm not disappointed. If anything, I'm even more excited.

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I'd buy that from someone who is starting on the business, not Martin. Even artists who work with plastic arts are meant to have deadlines.

Which is an issue for his publishers to take up with him, not the fans. He doesn't owe us anything other than perhaps a consistent level of artistic integrity. He's certainly not obliged to drop his other projects and put his personal life on hold to please the fans.

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Which is an issue for his publishers to take up with him, not the fans. He doesn't owe us anything other than perhaps a consistent level of artistic integrity. He's certainly not obliged to drop his other projects and put his personal life on hold to please the fans.

No one is saying that. At least, I am not. But I won't be fool to pretend Martin does sound like he has no idea what do next about the plot and the story has taken over him, at least for now.

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What was most worrying about this announcement is that he is feeling unhappy with certain segments enough that he is going back and completely rewriting sections. At this point I'd have expected him to be far beyond that.  

I suspect he might not get these books out for quite some time, he really isn't able to handle the pressure of writing to deadlines or with stress. Maybe when the TV show is over and the hype has gone (especially if they balls it up) he will be able to get it done without anyone badgering him.

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No one is saying that. At least, I am not. But I won't be fool to pretend Martin does sound like he has no idea what do next about the plot and the story has taken over him, at least for now.

I think we all might be reading in a little bit too much into some of his statements in that regard. But even if this is the case, it goes back to what I said earlier about not being able to force creativity. Slogging through the minutia of the story and spinning it later into gold is one thing, but if, as you suggested, he's stuck on the plot, wouldn't it be better that he take his time and work it out right than to force the book out to be ahead of the show and come off with a mediocre story?

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I think it can be wrapped up in two volumes, assuming we get a high casualty rate among POV characters in TWOW (which I think is likely).

That wouldn't work. POVs aren't the story, and it is the story that has to end. The death of Jon Connington or Davos wouldn't necessarily end Aegon's or Rickon's story, would it?

ASoS didn't end any stories, either, it just shifted the focus of the narrative and made it necessary to introduce new POVs. The Tully/Riverlands and Stark stories continue, regardless whether Catelyn or Robb are alive or not. Just as the Night's Watch survived the death of Jeor Mormont.

Killing POVs does nothing to end the story. George could only end the story quickly by killing many/all the characters he is writing about, and that would constitute the botched ending I was talking about.

Only if those chapters he's already written form a coherent narrative which does not introduce spoilers for the other characters not covered.

If GRRM decided two years ago to split it up and concentrated on such an approach then WoW could have been split up. As it is I doubt that the finished chapters are all from one coherent self contained story.

As a relative late comer to this series (after s2 of GOT so only waiting 3 years) I can wait more. Would prefer to read the next book than watch the next series but if wishes were horses we'd all be eating steak...

This would be true only if we assume that many stories intersect early in TWoW. There is no reason to believe that this is the case. Even Dany is apparently not teaming up with Tyrion for most of the novel/chapters already written.

Arianne/Connington, Melisandre/Jon, Jaime/Brienne, Theon/Asha, and the Meereen gang should be together. Davos, Sansa, Arya, Samwell, Bran, and Areo are less likely to interact with other POVs early on in the book. And some meetings/unions certainly could work. Davos could return from Skagos and hook with Asha/Theon/Stannis or Mel/Jon, Jaime/Brienne could return to KL and interact with Cersei if she remains there, and so on, just as Connington/Arianne could hook up with Cersei if Aegon takes KL.

But even after 1,500 manuscript pages it is very unlikely that any major POV group meets up with a different POV group. Nothing suggests that the Meereen gang is leaving Slaver's Bay soon.

By the way:

George constantly rewrites chapters. That's no sign that he is working slowly. People don't seem to get that writing can be difficult, and George's writing and plots are greatly improved by the fact that he constantly rewrites and improves the story.

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What was most worrying about this announcement is that he is feeling unhappy with certain segments enough that he is going back and completely rewriting sections. At this point I'd have expected him to be far beyond that.  

I suspect he might not get these books out for quite some time, he really isn't able to handle the pressure of writing to deadlines or with stress. Maybe when the TV show is over and the hype has gone (especially if they balls it up) he will be able to get it done without anyone badgering him.

I agree, the fact that he seems uncertain on a lot of these plot lines to the point where he feels he had to go back and rewrite them has me worried if this series will ever be finished as well.

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I agree, the fact that he seems uncertain on a lot of these plot lines to the point where he feels he had to go back and rewrite them has me worried if this series will ever be finished as well.

Clearly the pressure is giving him writers block to some extent, you can't hurry these things and neither can you force it. I really think the only way hes going to get a good product out is if everyone forgets about ASOIAF for a few years and he hides away and just does it. He'll be dead by then though I fear.

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As someone who has a BIG  problems with deadlines, I can't say I blame Martin... Yeah, I know we are expected to grow out of it eventually, but this is a problem that more likely than not arises because you're to hard on yourself and eventually burn out, not because you don't mean to do your work, or are uninterested. Sometimes we just don't know how to do the things we are supposed to do.

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I agree, the fact that he seems uncertain on a lot of these plot lines to the point where he feels he had to go back and rewrite them has me worried if this series will ever be finished as well.

I'm not surprised, given the last two novels. Obviously something went wrong, something went out of control, and that something is not getting better. Another thing that worries me is his statement that some characters cut by the show are snowballing, growing. That shouldn't be happening at this point.

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First ASOIAF novels were shorter and far simpler then recent ones

Descending order of length: 3, 5, 2, 4, 1. Wouldn't say that the later books are any longer than the early ones. ASOS and ADWD stand out somewhat, but the rest are very close to the same length.

AGOT = 298 000 words, 993 pages
ACOK = 323 000 words, 1 077 pages
ASOS = 424 000 words, 1 413 pages
AFFC = 300 000 words, 1 000 pages
ADWD = 422 000 words, 1 407 pages

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Descending order of length: 3, 5, 2, 4, 1. Wouldn't say that the later books are any longer than the early ones. ASOS and ADWD stand out somewhat, but the rest are very close to the same length.

AGOT = 298 000 words, 993 pages
ACOK = 323 000 words, 1 077 pages
ASOS = 424 000 words, 1 413 pages
AFFC = 300 000 words, 1 000 pages
ADWD = 422 000 words, 1 407 pages

Yeah. Page length doesn't explain it. I'll go to my grave thinking something went wrong after he got rid of his five year gap.

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On the one hand I do agree with the people who are saying you can't rush the creative process and we shouldn't criticize him for it. But then on the other hand it's like sheesh how have you lived this long and not conquered the art of meeting deadlines. Especially since he has has a bachelors and a masters. You can't tell he got through both undergrad and grad school and never learned how to meet deadlines.  I just feel like  Winds (& the whole series) is not a priority for him. I think if it was he would've been finished by now. I'm not criticizing him for this. I can't tell him how to prioritize his life based on what I want. I just think this is what it is. It's been my experience in life that if you truly want something you figure it out regardless of how busy you are. You make time for what you want.

And let me just make clear before all the GRRM apologists/capers come out. I am not criticizing him for not making Winds a priority. He can prioritize his life however he wants. I just think it's obvious that Winds is not a priority for him right now.

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Yeah. Page length doesn't explain it. I'll go to my grave thinking something went wrong after he got rid of his five year gap.

I completely agree with this. The scrapping of the 5 year gap had to mess up something.

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1/1/16: hundreds of pages of TWOW written.   That doesn't sound encouraging considering these books are veritable tomes. Dozens of chapters--I just named all the titles of my e-book copies and off the top of my head I'm throwing out 70 chapters as an average.   Dozens is 24 or 36 or 48--not encouraging either.   My split mind on this is ready to simultaneously enjoy this 6th reread of Dance and throw in the towel because I feel like a jerk waiting.   The publishers have a plan for accelerated production.   This is slightly hopeful.   And yeah, the tone of the entire post is depressing and defeated.   So in my fascination, having spent hundreds of dollars on purchasing various mediums to enjoy these books I get to wait more for both TWOW and the show.   That feeling like a jerk is winning the mind split.   This is insane.   Still, GRRM made a comment about that article that was circulating last week about him having NO PAGES of TWOW written.   I had a feeling he would address this publicly.     Sad it takes garbage like that to elicit any sort of response from an author with literally MILLIONS of devoted fans--many of whom I'm sure share my own feelings of jerkiness now.    

GRRM is a wizard, true.   He owes me no explanation or excuse.  It's up to me to disengage at this point as my faith in this entire THING is very low. Think I'll go listen to the new Karen Slaughter now and quit dedicating so many of my own resources to this.   

I'm going to act as if the books don't exist anymore and just watch/enjoy the final seasons of game of thrones for what it is. After that, if he has completed ADOS then, and only then, will I read the book series again. I've reread these books more times than I can count and as a fan, just don't feel like waiting any longer for him to prioritize finishing the series and clamping down on some of his own bad habits. I can understand the pressure and depression due to lowered expectations from oneself (which does really suck), but what seems like his inability to at least treat his approach more structured is what influences my decision not to read anything more until the books are finished/if theyre ever finished. 

There are plenty of things that you can't help in life that get in the way; that's not my issue. My issue is when you don't see the situation for what it is and give yourself the best chance at achieving goals by tightening down on your end of things. 

I love him and the series, but I'm tired, and this ain't gonna work...

Edited by The scourge of westeros

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I have to take a realistic look at his life. He is no longer a mere professional writer, he is a businessman. I would assume he is involved in the operations of his businesses. Sure he can delegate but running a business requires meetings, meeting, and meetings. Time.

Have you ever sat down at your desk, said to yourself, “I gotta get this report finished.” So you get prepared & dig in, the report starts to come together and THEN the phone rings, a co-worker stops by, a superior demands that you stop what you are doing and take care of THIS now, etc,blab blab

The distraction causes you lose your momentum & concentration and there you sit staring at a screen and keyboard, scroll back through what you wrote, think about it for a bit, and get back on track. Then, get interrupted again and say to yourself, “Shite, I can’t do this here, I’ll take it home.”

Only to find out that once you get home your spouse, mate, children, pets, friends, parents want your attention and you are frekking hungry.  By now it is 10pm and you are tired. Decide to finish up that report tomorrow, and go to bed. AND the cycle starts again. Eventually after much aggravation, cursing, head scratching, and physically abusing the machinery you get the GD report finished.

I used a report as an example. Now imagine you are writing a book with (exaggeration coming) 100 characters, 30 plot lines, and details, details and more details to keep track of. The only way I see this next book ever being finished is that Martin takes a sabbatical, a leave of absence from his business and submerges himself into his ASOIAF story again. I don’t see that happening.

There is also that hint of how he thought about his last two books; he described them as Kong and Son of Kong. To me it doesn’t sound as if actually enjoyed writing either of them. Implies to me that the saga will not be completed.

I also agree with Maxxine that the book is not a priority for Martin right now.

I also appreciate that Martin said flat out, the book ain't know where near being done.

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All I take from this is that he lost all motivation he had for this saga. And it will be even worse when the show starts spoiling the books...

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Have you ever sat down at your desk, said to yourself, “I gotta get this report finished.” So you get prepared & dig in, the report starts to come together and THEN the phone rings, a co-worker stops by, a superior demands that you stop what you are doing and take care of THIS now, etc,blab blab

You're describing my life.

And I can tell you, with all honesty, that is mostly due to me being disorganized as fuck as well as a procrastinator.

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Honestly, just to hear that GRRM is making lots of progress on the novel and that, even if he is not finished, he thought it possible by Halloween, is more than anything I could have asked for. I'm not disappointed. If anything, I'm even more excited.

this reminded me of that old MAD TV skit "lowered expectaayyytionnns" lol

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All I take from this is that he lost all motivation he had for this saga. And it will be even worse when the show starts spoiling the books...

Yup and once the ending is spoiled, he's gonna say F it and not even bother finishing ADOS.

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