TheLightning Lord

Winds update (not a blog)

472 posts in this topic

Try comparing his world with the Malazan Empire world then, that Steven Erikson created with Ian Campbell Esslemont. That's much much larger than Westeros by far, and yet he's managed to turn out TEN books, the shortest of which is over 600 pages, most being between 800-1000 pages long, the longest being 1230, since the series started in 1999, with the maximum length of time between books being two years. That particular series is now complete. Campbell Esslemont also started writing and has turned out another 6 books  since 2007.

I'm afraid the work rate of GRRM doesn't compare, even to writers that are working on a world far more complex than his.

I'm glad you brought up Malazan: It's the perfect example of what happens when writers choose quantity over quality. Trudging through that unreadable sludge is a great way to learn to appreciate George's gardening approach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, it was bound to happen.

I think I will not only watch season 6 but also wait for the show to be over and only then read the following books. It is a lot easier escape from book spoilers to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, come on.

The show could have gotten two seasons out of Dance and Feast. They just didn't want to: that's why they cut many important plots.

Seriously, rant all you want, but "nothing" happens in those books?

Siege of Riverrun with annoying Freys
Stannis' campaign
Northern Conspiracy
Sam in Braavos
Jon making the Wildlings cross the Wall
"death things in the water"
The Kingsmoot
Greyjoys attacking the Reach
Victarion travelling to Meereen
Dany facing battle to Meereen and Yunkai
Tyrion meeting the Griffs
Tyrion being kidnapped
Tyrion being part of a sellsword company
Quentyn meeting Dany
Quentyn "taming" a Dragon
Barristan preparing Meereen for battle.
Aegon landing in the Stormlands
Griffs taking the Stormlands
Arianne's plot to crown Myrcella

And that's just the parts they decided to not include.

You thought those parts were not interesting enough? Then it was THEIR JOB to make them appealing for tv audiences.

Really, that's enough material for two years, and I'm sure Martin actually thought so. D&d just didn't bother.

 

I agree it sounds like GRRM thought he had more time and that HBO could have made another season to come up to date with the last book.

Reading his blog he does sound like he thought he could complete the book to the deadlines he has set, but I think that depended on everything he wrote being both high quality and credible in his own mind. That has not happened and he has been rewriting and once that happens, and it is very common, then all bets must be off, or you are just a hack writing to a deadline, or a journalist as GRRM states if you will. So GRRM has made the correct and integrity-driven decision to give no more deadlines and will write it at his own pace.

The danger is not that GRRM cannot complete the books but that he will not complete the books because he cannot find the right way to tell his story and end it. I think he will find a way, he will find his truth, but it may take years.

As for the show, aside from Dorne and Sansa, the rest of it is fine. Stannis is really dead, as many of us predicted, and Jon, Aria, Cersei, Tyrion, the return of the Greyjoys, the Siege of Riverrun, will all make for a good season still. 

 

Edited by Valhalla Morghulis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Feast and Dance could not have taken 2 seasons and been watchable or make sense.

However, that is largely irrelevant to GRRM not being close to finishing The Winds of Winter.  It is not the show's fault, it is the fault of George RR Martin and nobody else.

If he can't get Winds out in FIVE YEARS, when he has allegedly solved all of the alleged problems that he alleged were the reason for the 5 and 6 year waits for Feast and Dance, then I cannot see how he can possibly be expected to finish the series.  At this point, I feel its a long shot that he gets Winds out before HBO finishes the series.  

 

Maybe once the HBO show is over and there is no more pressure or publicity and the interest in his books drops off drastically, he can get the book out.  As for finishing the series, it's now a huge long shot.  Huge.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, come on.

The show could have gotten two seasons out of Dance and Feast. They just didn't want to: that's why they cut many important plots.

Seriously, rant all you want, but "nothing" happens in those books?

 

And that's just the parts they decided to not include.

You thought those parts were not interesting enough? Then it was THEIR JOB to make them appealing for tv audiences.

Really, that's enough material for two years, and I'm sure Martin actually thought so. D&d just didn't bother.

 

More than half of those either happened or will be in Season 6. Besides, that's barely enough for half a season, let alone a full one. If they made 2 seasons they would have to add even more original material to fill the time, which in turn would cause you to complain more. Either way they can't win.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Feast could have easily been one season and Dance could easily be season 6.

As for deadlines, the truth is like love, you can't hurry it.

Art is not mathematics.

And writing is rewriting and problem solving. The story is the easy part.

Edited by Valhalla Morghulis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

George would not have made it to ADwD or been able to give us the Theon, Mercy(Arya), Barristan, Arrianne, and Alyanne Chapters if  he had been avoiding writing.  

This is not a term paper.  This is a world he's created and loves and wants to shares with us.

 "Oh, ye of little Faith and sense of entitlement and 'I want it now!'"

He is not avoiding writing.  World Creation is the hardest thing a fiction author can do and make believable and entertaining.  GRRM is still world creating. He's creating the Land of Always Winter (most likely to be seen through Bran's eyes) a place only cusory described in GoT  and probably much more we have yet to see as well.  Not to mention all the characters and conflicts that need resolving.  Tolstoy had the advantage of having history to rely on and no one knew Tolkien was writing what we would now call a sequel to "the Hobbit."  

So give the man a break.

Yes he is avoiding writing.  He says he can only write at home in peace and quiet with no distractions.

Yet instead of staying home he is constantly traveling, never mind the other projects he works on.  If you know you can only write when you are home, then you should probably stay home at least 2/3 of the time if not more.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's probably quite a bit of book stuff still in season 6 anyway so it isn't just one season = 2 books.

theyve moved stuff around a bit and hopefully omitted a lot of then dithering and unnecessary elements. It's really not as simple as saying 'the series would be better with more book stuff'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, come on.

The show could have gotten two seasons out of Dance and Feast. They just didn't want to: that's why they cut many important plots.

Seriously, rant all you want, but "nothing" happens in those books?

Siege of Riverrun with annoying Freys
Stannis' campaign
Northern Conspiracy
Sam in Braavos
Jon making the Wildlings cross the Wall
"death things in the water"
The Kingsmoot
Greyjoys attacking the Reach
Victarion travelling to Meereen
Dany facing battle to Meereen and Yunkai
Tyrion meeting the Griffs
Tyrion being kidnapped
Tyrion being part of a sellsword company
Quentyn meeting Dany
Quentyn "taming" a Dragon
Barristan preparing Meereen for battle.
Aegon landing in the Stormlands
Griffs taking the Stormlands
Arianne's plot to crown Myrcella

And that's just the parts they decided to not include.

You thought those parts were not interesting enough? Then it was THEIR JOB to make them appealing for tv audiences.

Really, that's enough material for two years, and I'm sure Martin actually thought so. D&d just didn't bother.

 

I'm definitely not one to defend the D&Ds, but there's only so much you can do with a story where nothing ends or has any resolution. I'd agree with you, maybe, if it was one season, but two seasons is just impossible.

You'd have the siege of Riverrun last two seasons? Stannis walking through the snow for two seasons? Sam traveling to Oldtown for two seasons? The Queenmaking plot being spread out over two seasons? Two seasons waiting for the Battle of Meereen? Two seasons waiting for Tyrion to meet Dany? 

I'm sorry but I just don't see how this would've been a good thing. Look how it turned out when they split Mockingjay or the Deathly Hallows or the Hobbit in an obvious cash grab. The audience deserves an ending, it is disrespectful to pad out a story like this. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think a lot of you whiners are looking into this far too much. He missed some deadlines (not at all uncommon). Now you are throwing your hands up and claiming that his legacy is ruined? Grow up and stop the pouting. Grab some tissues before you drown in your tears. 

How is ASoIaF going to be ruined because it will be finished after the HBO adaptation? HBO adapted from HIS vision! If you are truly a fan of the book why would the HBO show even affect you? I get that there's going to be spoiler issues. But GRRM is going to release his story. Not HBO's. He told HBO how it was going down. They filled in the blanks with tits and violence. 

I had already watched seasons 1 and 2 before I started the books. So, I pretty much knew how things were going to go down. That didn't diminish the value of the story in the slightest bit. As I kept reading and watching it was clear that the two series were growing further and further apart. The two will be virtually unrelated before long. And to be honest, after last season it pretty much already is. 

He recently posted in his blog (as I'm sure you've already seen) about how thankful he was for the outpouring of support he was getting from fans regarding his delays. Christ, I hope he doesn't come to this thread and read everyone's incessant whining. How could any author get motivated after something like this?

It's awful. I don't even want to try to comment on the crap I've seen on here. People disgust me. Poor GRRM. The thing that burns me the most is how people are behaving towards an artist. HES A GOTDAMN ARTIST! Artist fucking hit snags. The creative process hits snags. Depression settles in, and they avoid the work and are open to be DISTRACTED! How can nobody see this? And yes, I do believe that he may occasionally lose interest and become disillusioned with the whole world he's created, but those are very human, very understandable reactions to the shitload of pressure he's dealing with trying to create something that he can be proud of AND that satisfies his fans. But to say that he's just not into it anymore, or that he doesn't care because he's now wealthy, or to say his legacy will be ruined is a very butthurt way to say you are butthurt because you're not getting what you want. I stand with Martin and his six year timeframe between books. And Gods I hope he never hears/reads any of the shit I've read on here and on Reddit. 

Edited by Winter Blues

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread is all over the place and has gotten out of hand. It has turned to a place for people to rage and handful trying to defend George. May the Mother have mercy on all your souls

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm definitely not one to defend the D&Ds, but there's only so much you can do with a story where nothing ends or has any resolution. I'd agree with you, maybe, if it was one season, but two seasons is just impossible.

You'd have the siege of Riverrun last two seasons? Stannis walking through the snow for two seasons? Sam traveling to Oldtown for two seasons? The Queenmaking plot being spread out over two seasons? Two seasons waiting for the Battle of Meereen? Two seasons waiting for Tyrion to meet Dany? 

I'm sorry but I just don't see how this would've been a good thing. Look how it turned out when they split Mockingjay or the Deathly Hallows or the Hobbit in an obvious cash grab. The audience deserves an ending, it is disrespectful to pad out a story like this. 

I agree.  Characters rambling around meeting characters who are not important to the story is not something that can be turned into good TV.  

People at this point only want to blame HBO instead of blaming George.  In my opinion.  But lets not forget this is the same guy who inked the deal with HBO in 2007.  He has had PLENTY of time to finish the entire series by now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

There has to be some kind of knot similar to ADWD, there is no way he would be so far behind with the kind of deadlines he was hoping for.

It seems to me that "Knot" was really more A. excuse and B.symptom rather than cause of the problems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The psychological energy and suspense, and accordingly the potential money, generated by a popular series of books further boosted by in-progress telly and film adaptations is indisputably a massive, understandable temptation, to the author, the TV company and, for a time, the publisher.

HBO has brought the saga many, many extra readers, including many who wouldn't usually go for the genre. Some or many of us are doubtless among them.

But it is all a feature of late-capitalism greed inflation (as is the unrelenting speed of the TV productions), and, if I was the writer of a highly successful novel series, I hope I'd have the discipline to finish them before selling them. This result is fascinating, and possibly culturally ground-breaking. But it's not good for Martin or his books.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of musicians give up drinking and drugs because the have a moment of realisation that their music and fans are bigger than themselves. Its not about them anymore, they can't snort back a bag of cocaine and stumble about the stage giving a terrible performance to the 5,000 people who paid, travelled and watched your show. That is pathetic, selfish and a kick in the face to the your fans since it means so much to them and its become more than just you. 

The same thing goes for finishing a series that thousands or even millions are invested in. They need closure and they want to know what is happening to the characters they've spent years reading about.

Complaining that you can't write when you are in your luxury 5 star hotel on a 2 week vacation before your Comic-Coc appearance because you can only write on a shitty typewriter back in your US home is absolute horses**t. He set himself a deadline when he sold the rights to the show and he completely squandered his time. Now he's panicking and its only making things worse. The future of the series is up and the air and the years are flying by. 

Yes we as the fans can be angry at George, he sold the rights to two complete and utter morons who have a history of failed shows and know next to nothing about the characters and world they are bringing to TV. That is the most disappointing thing of all that his story is going to be finished by someone else and they are absolutely butchering it. The show is wildly inconsistent, full of plot holes, catered for a "fart joke" TV crowd, lacks the emotion depth and character development that the books have. Could I do a better job? Yes I could and so could 90% of the people in this thread. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think DD did a great job adapting the first 4 seasons, and the decision to merge Sansa into the fake Arya plotline while unpopular to readers made televisual sense. Also condensing the meandering Tyrion plotline was well done. This says to me that DD understand their medium very well and there was more than enough material in the last 3 books for DD to make engaging TV seasons 5 and 6, just like they had the first 4. 

I am maybe one of the few who loves both the books and the show. Two very different mediums and both are being well made in the whole.

Edited by Valhalla Morghulis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's awful. I don't even want to try to comment on the crap I've seen on here. People disgust me. Poor GRRM. The thing that burns me the most is how people are behaving towards an artist. HES A GOTDAMN ARTIST! Artist fucking hit snags. The creative process hits snags. Depression settles in, and they avoid the work and are open to be DISTRACTED! How can nobody see this? And yes, I do believe that he may occasionally lose interest and become disillusioned with the whole world he's created, but those are very human, very understandable reactions to the shitload of pressure he's dealing with trying to create something that he can be proud of AND that satisfies his fans. But to say that he's just not into it anymore, or that he doesn't care because he's now wealthy, or to say his legacy will be ruined is a very butthurt way to say you are butthurt because you're not getting what you want. I stand with Martin and his six year timeframe between books. And Gods I hope he never hears/reads any of the shit I've read on here and on Reddit. 

I think everyone understands about depression and distraction and procrastination.  15 years is a long 'snag'.  I take it as self evident that the longer time he writes the worse his final output is, since I consider Feast and Dance to be vastly inferior compared to the first three books, it also appears that he doesn't listen to his editors since I stand by my belief that not even a bad editor could have read Feast and thought 'great, let's print it'.  He is his own worst enemy.

I also don't see how his legacy is not harmed if he doesn't finish the series.  And with this latest update that sounds as if he is VERY FAR from finishing Winds, it seems like longer and longer odds he will finish it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think DD did a great job adapting the first 4 seasons, and the decision to merge Sansa into the fake Arya plotline while unpopular to readers made televisual sense. Also condensing the meandering Tyrion plotline was well done. This says to me that DD understand their medium very well and there was more than enough material in the last 3 books for DD to make engaging TV seasons 5 and 6, just like they had the first 4. 

funny how there seems to be more sensible people on the book boards than the tv one.

 

i think George can't handle the extra pressure of the added audience and the visibility of his work. He's been getting slower and slower each book and I really don't think he quite knows how to get to the end of the story from where he is now. 

Maybe he took criticism to heart of his last two books and maybe he doesn't enjoy doing it any more. That's understandable. But that doesn't excuse the obvious work avoidance. we all avoid the hard stuff all the time in our lives, but we shouldn't be told 'that's ok, take your sweet time', he knows he's screwing up, and maybe it's ok for us the be annoyed at it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

funny how there seems to be more sensible people on the book boards than the tv one.

 

i think George can't handle the extra pressure of the added audience and the visibility of his work. He's been getting slower and slower each book and I really don't think he quite knows how to get to the end of the story from where he is now. 

Maybe he took criticism to heart of his last two books and maybe he doesn't enjoy doing it any more. That's understandable. But that doesn't excuse the obvious work avoidance. we all avoid the hard stuff all the time in our lives, but we shouldn't be told 'that's ok, take your sweet time', he knows he's screwing up, and maybe it's ok for us the be annoyed at it

I agree, but he had already slowed down considerably by Feast, and that was before there was an HBO deal so it's more than the added fame. He was already demonstrating that he had series issues with the story, all of this before HBO and massive worldwide fame.  

He has also said that he gets bored with the story when he knows the ending, so it could be that the HBO deal where he scoped out the broad ending of the story and then was basically locked into was the kiss of death for him creatively.  Now he's distracted AND he's bored with the story.

He doesn't seem the type to take criticism to heart to me, if he did, then Dance would not have been even more bloated than Feast.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.