A+L=J (Alternative Jon theory)

[Sjur]

What if Rhaegar is not Jons father, but it is Aerys II. 
Evidence: We know Lyanna is captured by Rhaegar, Aerys might know where she is because the kingsguard would tell him.
Aerys would be pissed at Rhaegar for planning to hold a great council to replace him, so maybe he raped Lyanna in spite.
Aerys is mad and we know he does not have problems with rape.
Its probably not right, but i wanted your opinions.

[Silvana]

Personally, I don't see it. But that's just me! There's overwhelming evidence surrounding R+L=J, and I just don't see very much of a motive for Aerys to have raped Lyanna. He was had already begun his descent into madness at that stage. He was too paranoid routing out his apparent "enemies" to track down his son's lover and rape her.

[purple-eyes]

If RLJ is not true, then I think jon must be aerys's son. 

This is the second most reasonable explanation. 

But Aerys swore to be faithful to his wife, so I do not think he would have sex with lyanna. 

[Maxxine]

I would need more than "Aerys may have known more Lyanna was" to even think this is a possibility. There's nothing to suggest that Aerys even left the Red Keep during a time period that would make it possible for him to impregnate Lyanna. If R+L=J is not true then he's Ned & Ashara's. Jon's parentage is not just going to come out of left field with something that hasn't even been hinted at.

[Sydney Mae]

If RLJ is not true, then I think jon must be aerys's son. 

This is the second most reasonable explanation. 

But Aerys swore to be faithful to his wife, so I do not think he would have sex with lyanna. 

Wrong.  There are other theories just as good as R+L.  For example, Mance+Lyanna=Jon and Brandon+Lyanna=Jon. 

[Ygrain]

What if Rhaegar is not Jons father, but it is Aerys II. 
Evidence: We know Lyanna is captured by Rhaegar, Aerys might know where she is because the kingsguard would tell him.
Aerys would be pissed at Rhaegar for planning to hold a great council to replace him, so maybe he raped Lyanna in spite.
Aerys is mad and we know he does not have problems with rape.
Its probably not right, but i wanted your opinions.

Which is probably one of the reasons why Rhaegar left all his KG behind when he returned to KL, so Aerys never had a chance to find out.

[Ultima II]

It is very unlikely for KA2 and Lyanna to have crossed paths after Harrenhal.  In order of most likely, I rank the possibilities this way:

1. Brandon and Lyanna = Jon
2. Rhaegar and Lyanna = Jon
3. Mance and Lyanna = Jon
4. Eddard and Wylla = Jon
5. Eddard and Fisherman's Daughter (Wylla) = Jon
6. Brandon and Ashara = Jon

[purple-eyes]

Wrong.  There are other theories just as good as R+L.  For example, Mance+Lyanna=Jon and Brandon+Lyanna=Jon. 

oh, but only Aerys can make him song of ice and fire and dragon head. 

[purple-eyes]

Which is probably one of the reasons why Rhaegar left all his KG behind when he returned to KL, so Aerys never had a chance to find out.

yeah, if not for this reason, I can not believe rhaegar would not take at least arthur dayne with him to command the army and fight with Robert and save his butt. 

Based on app, rhaegar made some strategy mistakes on trident. If it is arthur, things maybe different. 

[Damsel in Distress]

oh, but only Aerys can make him song of ice and fire and dragon head. 

Jon would have to stand in back of the line.  There is one lady, with purer blood and three dragons ahead.    Jon will never ride a dragon.

[princess_snow]

I thought it was stated that Brandon never had a son/sons ??

[Ponzi Scheme]

I thought it was stated that Brandon never had a son/sons ??

You know how these theories go.  All are just that, theories.  Even so, I can see why people would believe many of them.  Talking specifically about Brandon, the arguments made for him being the daddy of Jon are:

1. Brandon is a womanizer and just took what he want.  He had a wild streak.  He and Lyanna spent a lot of time alone, together riding.
2. Ned's pov showed Lyanna an unhappy, sad girl.  Due to her engagement to Robert, but perhaps more.  Problems at home.  Maybe she had consensual sex with Brandon.  Maybe he raped her.  Maybe he seduced her. 
3. This theory explains Ned's guilt.  With Brandon as the father and Lyanna the mother, Jon is the rightful heir to Winterfell.  Ned chose to hide the truth and stole Jon's inheritance and his title.  You can see why this is a secret that must be maintained. 
4. It could also explain the unusual burial arrangements that Ned made for Brandon and Lyanna.  Only the Kings in the North and the ruling lords of Winterfell got their own statues.  Yet both Brandon and Lyanna had each their own monuments.  Why the break in a custom going back thousands of years?  Because Brandon was the lord of Winterfell for a brief period.  If Brandon and Lyanna had said their words in front of a tree, that makes them man and wife.  The lord and lady of Winterfell. 
5. Brandon's behavior.  This could also explain Brandon's outrageous behavior and why he never cooled off during his long trip from the Tullys' to the King's court in KL.  He was Lyanna's brother but if he was also her lover, it would certainly add to the emotions he was feeling. 

I think it is definitely one of the better theories available. 

[princess_snow]

You know how these theories go.  All are just that, theories.  Even so, I can see why people would believe many of them.  Talking specifically about Brandon, the arguments made for him being the daddy of Jon are:

1. Brandon is a womanizer and just took what he want.  He had a wild streak.  He and Lyanna spent a lot of time alone, together riding.
2. Ned's pov showed Lyanna an unhappy, sad girl.  Due to her engagement to Robert, but perhaps more.  Problems at home.  Maybe she had consensual sex with Brandon.  Maybe he raped her.  Maybe he seduced her. 
3. This theory explains Ned's guilt.  With Brandon as the father and Lyanna the mother, Jon is the rightful heir to Winterfell.  Ned chose to hide the truth and stole Jon's inheritance and his title.  You can see why this is a secret that must be maintained. 
4. It could also explain the unusual burial arrangements that Ned made for Brandon and Lyanna.  Only the Kings in the North and the ruling lords of Winterfell got their own statues.  Yet both Brandon and Lyanna had each their own monuments.  Why the break in a custom going back thousands of years?  Because Brandon was the lord of Winterfell for a brief period.  If Brandon and Lyanna had said their words in front of a tree, that makes them man and wife.  The lord and lady of Winterfell. 
5. Brandon's behavior.  This could also explain Brandon's outrageous behavior and why he never cooled off during his long trip from the Tullys' to the King's court in KL.  He was Lyanna's brother but if he was also her lover, it would certainly add to the emotions he was feeling. 

I think it is definitely one of the better theories available. 

I can see that all makes sense, yes. Thankyou for taking the time to explain it in full.  I thought I had read in another thread- cant recall where tho - that GRRM stated Brandon fathered no sons ? I def read it on the forum somewhere.

[Ygrain]

You know how these theories go.  All are just that, theories.  Even so, I can see why people would believe many of them.  Talking specifically about Brandon, the arguments made for him being the daddy of Jon are:

1. Brandon is a womanizer and just took what he want.  He had a wild streak.  He and Lyanna spent a lot of time alone, together riding.
2. Ned's pov showed Lyanna an unhappy, sad girl.  Due to her engagement to Robert, but perhaps more.  Problems at home.  Maybe she had consensual sex with Brandon.  Maybe he raped her.  Maybe he seduced her. 
3. This theory explains Ned's guilt.  With Brandon as the father and Lyanna the mother, Jon is the rightful heir to Winterfell.  Ned chose to hide the truth and stole Jon's inheritance and his title.  You can see why this is a secret that must be maintained. 
4. It could also explain the unusual burial arrangements that Ned made for Brandon and Lyanna.  Only the Kings in the North and the ruling lords of Winterfell got their own statues.  Yet both Brandon and Lyanna had each their own monuments.  Why the break in a custom going back thousands of years?  Because Brandon was the lord of Winterfell for a brief period.  If Brandon and Lyanna had said their words in front of a tree, that makes them man and wife.  The lord and lady of Winterfell. 
5. Brandon's behavior.  This could also explain Brandon's outrageous behavior and why he never cooled off during his long trip from the Tullys' to the King's court in KL.  He was Lyanna's brother but if he was also her lover, it would certainly add to the emotions he was feeling. 

I think it is definitely one of the better theories available. 

With Brandon as father and Lyanna as mother, Jon would be an abomination. No-one would ever accept him as a lord of anything, and Ned would never erect his siblings statues in the crypts.  Furthermore, Brandon was never a lord, and no lady of Winterfell ever had a statue, so this explanation doesn't apply, anyway.

Not to mention the whole issue of Jon being born at the end a year-lasting rebellion while Brandon died before it kicked off.

I thought it was stated that Brandon never had a son/sons ??

IIRC, the statement "Brandon died before he had sons", whic would theoretically allow for a posthumously born son. 

However, even so, Jon is not him.

[princess_snow]

With Brandon as father and Lyanna as mother, Jon would be an abomination. No-one would ever accept him as a lord of anything, and Ned would never erect his siblings statues in the crypts.  Furthermore, Brandon was never a lord, and no lady of Winterfell ever had a statue, so this explanation doesn't apply, anyway.

Not to mention the whole issue of Jon being born at the end a year-lasting rebellion while Brandon died before it kicked off.

IIRC, the statement "Brandon died before he had sons", whic would theoretically allow for a posthumously born son. 

However, even so, Jon is not him.

Ahhh ok. Thanks  I dont like the idea of Brandon and Lyanna being Jons parents.  Bolded makes the most sense as evidence to dispute this theory. 

[Ponzi Scheme]

With Brandon as father and Lyanna as mother, Jon would be an abomination. No-one would ever accept him as a lord of anything, and Ned would never erect his siblings statues in the crypts.  Furthermore, Brandon was never a lord, and no lady of Winterfell ever had a statue, so this explanation doesn't apply, anyway.

Not to mention the whole issue of Jon being born at the end a year-lasting rebellion while Brandon died before it kicked off.

IIRC, the statement "Brandon died before he had sons", whic would theoretically allow for a posthumously born son. 

However, even so, Jon is not him.

Sure they would accept him.  It's just a matter of time.  People accepted Joff and Tommen, though many knew.  It is an accepted practice with the Targaryens and for good reason:  it is the means to keep the blood pure and maintain the all-important connection with dragons.  The Targaryens were completely justified for this reason.  B&L could have had their own reasons. 

I could see Brandon and Lyanna thinking they needed a skin changer in the family and they mated to help bring about this child.  They could simply have felt horny at the same time and did it.  That child could easily be Jon.  The time lines of the events are not what you could call precise.  Leuwin saying, "bastards grow up faster," was just a way to cover up for Jon's apparently advanced development due to the fact he was older than what Ned was claiming.  Leuwin suspected something about Jon.  He seemed pleased to have the boy sent to the wall.  Perhaps because Jon was the true heir to Winterfell.

[Ygrain]

Ahhh ok. Thanks  I dont like the idea of Brandon and Lyanna being Jons parents.  Bolded makes the most sense as evidence to dispute this theory. 

You're welcome :-)

Nonetheless, some dispute the timing, because it's based on Dany being born 9 months after the Sack, and Jon 8-9 months before her "or thereabout", and the rebellion lasting "about a year", which for them means that Jon could have been conceived just prior the rebellion. Others claim that Dany is not who she is supposed to be and that her place and date of birth are incorrect. Just so you knew :-)

Sure they would accept him.  It's just a matter of time.  People accepted Joff and Tommen, though many knew.  It is an accepted practice with the Targaryens and for good reason:  it is the means to keep the blood pure and maintain the all-important connection with dragons.  The Targaryens were completely justified for this reason.  B&L could have had their own reasons. 

I could see Brandon and Lyanna thinking they needed a skin changer in the family and they mated to help bring about this child.  They could simply have felt horny at the same time and did it.  That child could easily be Jon.  The time lines of the events are not what you could call precise.  Leuwin saying, "bastards grow up faster," was just a way to cover up for Jon's apparently advanced development due to the fact he was older than what Ned was claiming.  Leuwin suspected something about Jon.  He seemed pleased to have the boy sent to the wall.  Perhaps because Jon was the true heir to Winterfell.

They wouldn't. Targs became accepted because initially, they imposed their own rules through their dragons, and became an exception to the rule, above the laws applying to anyone else.

With Joff and Tommen, only few people know for sure. Stannis' letter is no proof, for some, it is only propaganda for Stannis to push his own claim. When Jaime suggests coming out, Cersei is appalled, because 1) Tommen's claim comes through being officially Robert's son, and 2) what was possible for Targaryens is not possible for Lannisters.

Jon may have been a bit older than Ned claimed but not substantially, or else he wouldn't be able to pass him away as younger than Robb as a baby; in babies, the stages of development differ substantially.

Plus, the timeline for ages comes from GRRM, not Ned.

[princess_snow]

@Ygrain Yes I think I know what you are talking about re Dany, Ive read a few theories. Thanks again !

[Sjur]

It is very unlikely for KA2 and Lyanna to have crossed paths after Harrenhal.  In order of most likely, I rank the possibilities this way:

1. Brandon and Lyanna = Jon
2. Rhaegar and Lyanna = Jon
3. Mance and Lyanna = Jon
4. Eddard and Wylla = Jon
5. Eddard and Fisherman's Daughter (Wylla) = Jon
6. Brandon and Ashara = Jon

Really? Is Mance a theory?

[purple-eyes]

Actually Brandon and lyanna is certainly a good couple. 

Both had wolf blood. They are rash and hot tempered and also very wild, so surely it is possible that they got horny then they forgot everything else. They do not care about rules just like wildlings. 

This can explain jon was so stark, nothing like rhaegar. 

Also can explain why rhaegar help lyanna because he understood incest and himself is the product of it. And he can also love lyanna since she is into incest like a Targ. Proabbly attractive in rhaegar's eyes. 

Rebellion is only close to one year. If lyanna is pregnant for like one month when she ran away, jon can certainly be born late in the war. 

And a pregnancy with Brandon is certainly a good reason for her to ran away and hide from her family and remain silent. 

She asked ned to promise her never ever say the truth that they had a sibling incest. 

It is a of course shame, but love is death of honor.