Will the show work well when ahead of the books?

[JonSnowed]

Dorne was not poorly written, it was made in a way that was difficult to adapt and have some lame characters (Sand Snakes and Darkstar), but it did well in do what it proposed: do a familiar tragedy with rich characterization and do a set up for the next book. You may not like the Dornish plot, but it has some merits. Wherever the objective the show runners they failed, nothing worked. Why they cut the best character in the arc and invested in the Sand Snakes, that are bad characters in the books? Can't they separate the gold from the dross? In the next seasons they will have just a outline of what will happen, and, for sure, they will have to cut or fuse some characters and plot points and rely in original material made for them, if Dorne is the best they can do when they walk with their own legs we have little reasons to be optimistic.

And about the examples you listed about improved plot points, the battle of the wall was more cinematic, but the resolution with the battle in the forest was better in the book, in the show it was more like a skirmish. The red wedding had little differences in general, in the book we had the northern lords fighting the Freys and trying to protect Robb and Grey Wind dying fighting back. It would be better than just a massacre. And I don't think Tyrion journey was that good, the only good thing was they cut Penny.

And all this three examples they had plenty material to base, the material for next seasons will be scarce.

      

I don't have an issue with the Dornish plot I just felt it was poorly written, for example was there really any need for the Aerys Oakheart POV?  Equally Arienne sat in the tower, I'll wait to see how it goes but I felt George could have done it very differently and improved upon it.  Agree about the Sand Snakes also, I'm guessing they play a bigger part in the books so that's why they are in the show but they were god awful.

Regarding material for next season, I really don't see why it will be scarce, they have the stuff from AFFC which they are adapting, they have the draft Winds materials and input from GRRM there should be plenty there. It's the final two seasons I think where we will see more of a challenge.

[Cas Stark]

The spoilers overall do not look too crazy, nothing compared to the crazy of last year.  But I can't see why season 6 would be better than season 5, the show has been very consistent IMO in that their invented plot lines and stories and characters are all significantly weaker than the ones they adapted from the books.  It would be really strange then , if after 5 seasons, all of a sudden their non book stuff improved out of nowhere.  So, logically then, the show will falter without the books to guide them as it has consistently faltered when it veered too far off course from the books.

Re: Dorne, here was one of the few areas I thought the show might improve on the books, but somehow miraculously they managed to make the stupid book Sand Snakes look good compared to the much, much stupider Show Snakes.  And they did nothing to improve the terrible plotting on Doran Martell, master manipulator who Martin has reveal his great plan was to sit on his ass for 15 years until the next generation growd up.  LOL.

[Guest]

The spoilers overall do not look too crazy, nothing compared to the crazy of last year.  But I can't see why season 6 would be better than season 5, the show has been very consistent IMO in that their invented plot lines and stories and characters are all significantly weaker than the ones they adapted from the books.  It would be really strange then , if after 5 seasons, all of a sudden their non book stuff improved out of nowhere.  So, logically then, the show will falter without the books to guide them as it has consistently faltered when it veered too far off course from the books.

Re: Dorne, here was one of the few areas I thought the show might improve on the books, but somehow miraculously they managed to make the stupid book Sand Snakes look good compared to the much, much stupider Show Snakes.  And they did nothing to improve the terrible plotting on Doran Martell, master manipulator who Martin has reveal his great plan was to sit on his ass for 15 years until the next generation growd up.  LOL.

I do wonder if D&D actually understand the nuances of the story.

[Cas Stark]

I do wonder if D&D actually understand the nuances of the story.

I would probably say "no" but then all you have to do is look at this forum to see that there are multiple interpretations of most everything.  Stannis is a greatly loved character by many on this forum, it's clear the show didn't share that feeling, LOL.  Most people consider Dany a hero, but there is a minority who think she's lost it.  Some people loved Stoneheart, some people hated Cat's resurrection.

I would say they certainly dumb it down to the major surface beats and it's also clear to me that they own "takes" on the story strongly influences how things are done on the show, like they are not religious, and the show depicts religion very negatively, they love Cersei and she gets a very sympathetic treatment on the show, they seem to much prefer dragons to direwolves, and I also believe their relationship with some of the actors colors how they are doing the story, I can't think of any other reason why Ramsay Bolton has been turned into a hot, bad boy badass who gets tons of great lines than that they really like the actor.

I do think it's possible, possible not probable, that season 6 could be better than season 5.

[Guest]

D&D have not done a good job with all the foreshadowing material that is in the books. When Dany was taken by Drogo she was collared, as his slaves were and this may be why she hates slavery.  Easy to add to the show, but was not.  Myriad others of the same type.

 I really hate the Ramsay Bolton storyline in the show, I do not think it has anything to do with the actor but more to do with their want to present shock value over story- and the whole storyline devolved into "torture porn."

[JonSnowed]

You see I prefer Ramsay in the show to Ramsay in the books, there is more to his character and he's emerged as the one bad guy the audience really despises.  The show clearly cannot make everyone happy and I agree there is an element of their own preferences but to out right say they don't do a good job is extremely unfair given the constraints they work within.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

You see I prefer Ramsay in the show to Ramsay in the books, there is more to his character and he's emerged as the one bad guy the audience really despises.  The show clearly cannot make everyone happy and I agree there is an element of their own preferences but to out right say they don't do a good job is extremely unfair given the constraints they work within.

It feels very staged though. Almost like they're trying to reproduce Joffrey. Ramsay in the books is much more effective just because he's more a presence rather than a person. It's much more psychological terror rather than Hobbit-like terror. 

[Panther2000]

It could be now D&D don't have to find a way of adapting huge books which have little resolution and are slow and plodding into a tightly paced tv show, they will have more freedom to go ahead and write something better than season 5. It might actually be a good thing.

Time will tell. 

I agree,  There is just way too much stuff form them to try to figure if it is moving the plot forward & do they really need this or that character, or could they come up with someone new & combine them.       I would love to have the books 1st to get all the information, even stuff that would be missing from the show.  However, I think that season 6 could work out better with out the books.    I would think that they do have a lot of information from book 6 from GRRM, so they know where he is headed.    & For some crazy reason, I do think that they will omit things( Major Points) so GRRM can tell it himself.   

 

There is only 10 shows, and they go by so quick,  they just don't have enough time.   10 Hours for what? a 1000+ page book.   I am with you on this.   I know that people have issues with D & D but,  

[UnmaskedLurker]

It feels very staged though. Almost like they're trying to reproduce Joffrey. Ramsay in the books is much more effective just because he's more a presence rather than a person. It's much more psychological terror rather than Hobbit-like terror. 

But psychological terror is harder to do on TV -- and given the time constraints and relative importance of that story-line compared to others -- I think D&D did the best the could with the character. Viewers certainly hate Ramsey and will cheer his death.

I admit that some of the complaints about week dialogue and week invented story-lines (Dorne being the most obvious example) are legitimate complaints, I find most of the complaints, however, to be the result of the inherent differences in the two media and the requirements for adapting such a sprawling epic onto the small screen over a relatively limited number of hours. People point out that as the TV show deviates more from the book, the show becomes worse -- but maybe the later books simply are harder to adapt to screen and thus no matter what would be worse. The earlier books were more tightly written so they were easier to adapt. As the books moved on the story got more spread out and unwieldy. 

Personally, I suspect that season 6 will be very good and maybe better than season 5. I don't think there will be much in the way of "invented" story lines (like Dorne). While D&D may not have a completed book to use -- they have GRRM's overall outline of the plot and I believe they saw drafts of WoW. So while more of the details might need to be invented -- the plot lines can more or less follow the development of the story as it can be expected to unfold in the books -- with certain essential modifications given the differences in media (and some of the changes they have already made -- such as killing off certain characters -- and additional changes that they will need to make for the different media).

Whenever someone loves a book -- the movie or TV adaptation almost never matches up. I think D&D have done a better job than most adapting books to the small screen.

[Arrow of the Morning]

I don't have an issue with the Dornish plot I just felt it was poorly written, for example was there really any need for the Aerys Oakheart POV?  Equally Arienne sat in the tower, I'll wait to see how it goes but I felt George could have done it very differently and improved upon it.  Agree about the Sand Snakes also, I'm guessing they play a bigger part in the books so that's why they are in the show but they were god awful.

The quality of the write was good, the problems were others like the decision of make 2 POVs aside Arianne. George intention was to show Doran in the eyes of other characters and reinforce the image of passive and spineless giving weight to Arianne motivations to act. The Sand Snakes poor characterization and Darkstar are other flaws. But the dialogues are pretty good, the characterization of most of the characters are good too. The depiction of the personality and emotion of the main characters are pretty good, no one poops out and do something out of character just for shock or fan service. The way he chose to tell the story can be questionable, but the write itself was good.

D&D mistake was make the Sand Snakes have a major role. They will be Doran's ace in the hole and will do something in Winds, but they are not so fleshed characters and don't have to have so prominence. Worst indeed, they transformed them all in warrior chicks, while in the books each one of the three older SS have some different ability and traits that differentiate them  (only Obara is a warrior) and it was overwhelming. The laughable battle in the Water Gardens derail them will be difficult to the audience take them serious.

Regarding material for next season, I really don't see why it will be scarce, they have the stuff from AFFC which they are adapting, they have the draft Winds materials and input from GRRM there should be plenty there. It's the final two seasons I think where we will see more of a challenge.    

They still have material in some plots, but they will walk in new territory in others (like Tyrion, Dany, Cersei, Sansa mostly and we have the wall) and I don't know how detailed is George's resume, but the book give much more material. The best scenes in the show was the ones more faithful to the source material. D&D novelties are, in general, are not good.

[LordDireStark]

I think the problem was B&W were more concerned with the series not running more then 7 seasons worrying that the viewers would get bored instead of keeping pace with the books. Then everything snowballed. Cutting plot lines,too many plots to combine and play out and GRRM not finishing the next book before the show caught up.They should've just stayed close to the books and took as many seasons it needed to finish the story. I know I wouldn't get bored with ten seasons and we know HBO didn't care how many seasons it took.And now it looks like it might go ten anyway.

[Farerb]

I think the problem was B&W were more concerned with the series not running more then 7 seasons worrying that the viewers would get bored instead of keeping pace with the books. Then everything snowballed. Cutting plot lines,too many plots to combine and play out and GRRM not finishing the next book before the show caught up.They should've just stayed close to the books and took as many seasons it needed to finish the story. I know I wouldn't get bored with ten seasons and we know HBO didn't care how many seasons it took.And now it looks like it might go ten anyway.

You don't consider that the actors and that perhaps they wouldn't want to do it for "as many seasons it needed to finish the story". There are a lot of factor they need to take into consideration.

This is the main problem I see with a lot of book readers, they don't understand that the TV medium is different and has a lot of limitations, like time and money. This isn't a book where it depends on ONE person that can take whatever time he needs and can write whater he wants cause he doesn't need to consider how much money it would take to produce such scene.

[JonSnowed]

Also if the show stuck 100% to the book it would lose viewers and hence the producers/HBO money, does anyone think taking out half the cast to follow Brienne's AFFC arc would increase viewing figures?

 

. The show runners trimmed the fat from Clash of Kings and I don't recall much criticism of S2. They made some mistakes in S5, some of the stuff was well below standard but some people on here are extremely over the top with their criticism.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I think a few things should be kept in mind -- while people on this board thought season 5 was relatively weak -- it is the season that won Game of Throne the Emmy for best drama (not the earlier seasons that more people on the board loved). So the rest of the world -- who mostly have never read the books -- were not as turned off by the invented plots as those on this board.

More important -- there is a difference between invented plots and filling in the details for plots. The Dorne plot in season 5 was pretty much invented entirely. But D&D know what happens in terms of plot development for the rest of the series. GRRM has given them this information. So D&D may not be inventing plots so much as filing in the details. When adapting the books it was one issue -- too much detail in the books and having to trim it down for TV. Now it will be the opposite -- only broad outline of plot points -- and D&D need to fill in how it happens.

That process is not quite the same as the Dorne plot line that had no real connection to any plot that GRRM developed. On the other hand, it still retains the problem of the writers having to invent all of the dialogue. Also, inevitably, D&D will get from plot point to plot point in quite a different way that GRRM ultimately will write. So those plot developments may not be as well thought through as GRRM ultimately does.

But for those who have enjoyed the show so far -- I think the upcoming seasons will remain enjoyable. For those who have been frustrated with the recent seasons -- they likely will continue to be frustrated -- although with the "advantage" of not having the books to compare it against (for the most part, other than some carryover plot lines like iron islands) and thus perhaps ending up less critical.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Quote

So D&D may not be inventing plots so much as filing in the details.

This. 

I think this is where some people are getting unstuck, assuming that the writers are completely making stuff up now, that everything is fair game and will bare no resemblance to the books. I disagree. Of course things will diverge a lot more, but only in the details. 


 

[Alayne's Shadow.]

18 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

This. 

I think this is where some people are getting unstuck, assuming that the writers are completely making stuff up now, that everything is fair game and will bare no resemblance to the books. I disagree. Of course things will diverge a lot more, but only in the details. 
 

This argument will only really work when Sansa marries Ramsay in the books.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Depends how you look at it. Sansa gets tricked into marrying someone terrible for political reasons by little finger , and finds a way to get out of it, heads north... Could be the same in both.

[TheKingoftheSevenKingdoms]

I think it will work. I think what they are doing is circling back to storylines they skipped for Book 4 and 5 and adapting them for the screen. For some characters at least. We will get the Greyjoys - though Euron doesn't have the eyepatch it seems unfortunately -  and the Riverlands/Jaime stuff for the most part.

Honestly, anything they do will probably be better than season 5. Easily the worst season of Game of Thrones despite having one of the best episodes - Hardhome.