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Is Jon (Dayne) better for the plot than Jon (Targaryen)?


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ok, his grandgrandgrandgrandma is a dayne, so he is already a dayne? 

Then he is an Arryn, martell, blackwood as well as Velaryon. 

No wonder many people feel he can rule seven kingdoms. 

 

She's technically his great-great-great grandmother, but genetically she's his great grandmother. (because of the two brother-sister pairings.)

 

Edit: Regardless, Jon has just as much Targaryen blood as he does Dayne blood.

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ok, his grandgrandgrandgrandma is a dayne, so he is already a dayne? 

Then he is an Arryn, martell, blackwood as well as Velaryon. 

No wonder many people feel he can rule seven kingdoms. 

 

Let's take Darkstar as an example. Do we even know how far back his cadet branch split from the other Daynes? They have a castle I'm just going to guess it goes back for more than a generation. For all we know it goes back farther than Maekar's marriage which is when the Daynes were likely introduced into the current Targs. If any of that is true than Jon could be at least as much "Dayne" as Darkstar who many think will help bring Dawn into the story if the cadet split occurred at this time.

Any current Dayne would be the same % Dayne as Jon depending on the # of generations between each family. This goes for any other person with a Dayne somewhere on their tree unless there is loads of secret incest between certain Daynes. I know there is some magical ridiculousness as far as blood goes in this series and George could pull something from his ass, but just saying. This is all based on the potential oversimplified genetics in this series where we just call somebody 50% Targ Stark 50% despite neither of them really being that % of either from the original forebears with the Targs probably having slightly more of the original due to incest.

Everybody that has a Dayne somewhere in their tree going back all the way to the first sword of the morning will likely have for our purposes close to the same really small % of original sword of the morning "blood" as anybody else with a Dayne in their genetic pool despite whether they have had anybody with the last name of Dayne any time recently.

This is all just one means of looking at genetics which we have no real idea at all of the underpinnings.  

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IICR, genetics aren't much about fractions but chances. If my mother is or can do X and my father doesn't, that doesn't mean I can do or be half X but I have 50% of chances to do so.

Yes I know but I was just positing one way the genetics may work in the series based on how people discuss things with all the emphasis placed on names and particular attributes. Really we should be more concerned with traits whether they were recessive or not, whether they were passed on etc but I doubt George took the time to go into that much detail.

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IICR, genetics aren't much about fractions but chances. If my mother is or can do X and my father doesn't, that doesn't mean I can do or be half X but I have 50% of chances to do so.

It depends on how many genes are responsible for that particular trait. Gender is decided by only one gene, so in that case you're right. But other traits (such as hair color) are decided by several genes, and in that case there can be a mixture of traits.

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Yes I know but I was just positing one way the genetics may work in the series based on how people discuss things with all the emphasis placed on names and particular attributes. Really we should be more concerned with traits whether they were recessive or not, whether they were passed on etc but I doubt George took the time to go into that much detail.

Well, I guess that depends on how he approaches any kind of genetic theory. The fact that Plumm speaks of having the "right" amount of blood somehow could mean he knows certain traits pass exactly like their parents had them.

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Considering that house Dayne has done so little, or at least we've heard so little about them in asoiaf, it would be a disappointment to me that Jon isn't part targ.

 

side note, is there any doubt that ashara Dayne is still alive? The fact the story says she killed herself jump from a tower after hearing about her brothers death from Ned is so flimsy.

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Well, I guess that depends on how he approaches any kind of genetic theory. The fact that Plumm speaks of having the "right" amount of blood somehow could mean he knows certain traits pass exactly like their parents had them.

I was responding to a specific post which implied because "ok, his grandgrandgrandgrandma is a dayne, so he is already a dayne? " as if to say somebody hasn't had somebody with the last name Dayne in their family tree for a bit of time so they aren't enough Dayne to be sword of the Morning. All I'm saying is this imbues certain abilities just because they have somebody with the family name closer to them in the family tree opposed what is the likely genetic compositions of either party.

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It depends on how many genes are responsible for that particular trait. Gender is decided by only one gene, so in that case you're right. But other traits (such as hair color) are decided by several genes, and in that case there can be a mixture of traits.

Sure, but I was kinda talking more about certain skills. Like, as I said before, only one of my parents can roll the tongue and I don't half roll my tongue nor my son can 1/4 roll his. We all are very capable of doing so because the skill has been passed untouched. I guess is that with things such as being able to tame dragons, warg or hold magical swords.

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It depends on how many genes are responsible for that particular trait. Gender is decided by only one gene, so in that case you're right. But other traits (such as hair color) are decided by several genes, and in that case there can be a mixture of traits.

Ya that is my general laymen's understanding of genes in the real world as well.

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Sure, but I was kinda talking more about certain skills. Like, as I said before, only one of my parents can roll the tongue and I don't half roll my tongue nor my son can 1/4 roll his. We all are very capable of doing so because the skill has been passed untouched. I guess is that with things such as being able to tame dragons, warg or hold magical swords.

unfortunately app said house dayne choose those whose sword skill are considered to be worthy to use dawn our of house dayne members. Nothing about magic with genes. It is not lightbringer. 

So if jon used it, it would be like jeor gave him long law for some deeds, Not because his distant female ancestor is a dayne. 

You seriuously think somewhere in next books GRRM will write this? 

jon: I checked the history book, my greatgreatgtreat grandma is a dayne, so I am having dayne blood thus qualified for sword of morning. now give me the dawn! 

 

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Well, one dayne is the most magnificent knight of his day, and one dayne is the most beautiful woman of her day. 

And they have one unique sword of the world. 

Another dayne is the most handsome and dangerous man in dorne too. 

They do look pretty impressive. 

 

darkstar is an up jumped goon; nothing impressive about him so far. 

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We can only make assumptions regarding the Dayne's true connection to Dawn, maybe they're meant to wield it against the others, maybe they're role is to guard it, maybe the fan base is totally off & a Sword of the Evening  will arise. The reason I have my doubts of them becoming more important that the Targaryens is their limited role in the story thus far..

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In response to the thread title question: no.

We don't know anything about the Daynes really. People have built up very highly evolved fan fictions in their heads about what the Daynes are and what role they play but really, as far as what GRRM has given us goes, we know very very little. Being the hidden son of Rhaegar whose family Dynasty collapsed, and of Lyanna whose family fought against that dynasty and won only to lose her is a great story.

What I do think might be an interesting twist involving the Daynes though, is if Dany turns out to be half Dayne and a bastard. She has built her life around the notion she is the only rightful claimant to the Iron Throne as the only remaining Targaryen. But her memories don't seem to match reality (lemon tree in Braavos), and Barristan Selmy tells us she has Ashara Dayne's eyes. I think it would be very interesting if Dany turns out to be either Ashara's "stillborn" daughter (by either Aerys or Rhaegar) or Rhaella's daughter by Arthur Dayne (less likely).

IMO what makes the best story is if all of the final claimants to the throne as the story nears the end are bastards, Targaryen ones and maybe Baratheon ones as well. There is no "rightful" ruler by any definition, only a need for Westeros to back the best choice for peace.

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Dany is 1/4 Dayne, her great great grandmother was Dyanna, her son Aegon V married Bertha Blackwood. The next two generations were incestuous. In a normal family that would be a distant relation but not when you fact or in the incest. Furthermore it appears the eyes aren't a big clue considering we have current day Dayne's who have eyes & features that would seem to be Valyrian,even though we're told the Dayne's have a different ancestry..

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Dany is 1/4 Dayne, her great great grandmother was Dyanna, her son Aegon V married Bertha Blackwood. The next two generations were incestuous. In a normal family that would be a distant relation but not when you fact or in the incest. Furthermore it appears the eyes aren't a big clue considering we have current day Dayne's who have eyes & features that would seem to be Valyrian,even though we're told the Dayne's have a different ancestry..

I would add that Ashara is tall for a woman and neither Dany nor Jon are described as being tall.

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I would add that Ashara is tall for a woman and neither Dany nor Jon are described as being tall.

Rhaegar was tall tho, whereas Ned is not. Lyanna's height isn't mentioned, but the Knight of the Laughing Tree is deemed small. 

 Assuming Lyanna was the KOTLT, no matter what the hypothetical pairing is (Ned & Ashara or Rhaegar & Lyanna) the height of the parents does not seem to have been a factor.

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