BBC's War & Peace [SPOILERS FOR THE SERIES]

[Iskaral Pust]

I happened to see this was being aired on an obscure US cable channel last night and set a DVR recording. I'll definitely watch. I read the book a long time ago and loved it, as did my wife.

[HexMachina]

18 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

I happened to see this was being aired on an obscure US cable channel last night and set a DVR recording. I'll definitely watch. I read the book a long time ago and loved it, as did my wife.

Looking it up, US seems to get 2-hour episodes, so you will be just one behind the rest of us by you watch the one you have recorded. 

[Walda]

Just asking/hoping those of you who can actually watch this production on TV  post in this thread about it. Recap, critique, analyse, give your opinions on an actor or a character, scene or prop, uniform, costume, jewellery,guns, dispositions of cavalry, count the stiches removed from history, gush about what you adored, rant about what you hated, or the continuity errors you spotted, or anachronisms, whatever. I would especially like to know exactly what Prince Nikolai Bolkonsky (Andrei's / James Norton's dad) is turning on his lathe.

I'm a fan of the book, and won't get to see this until its over for you guys in Britain/ the States, so don't have much to say about it myself, but would dearly love one or some of you to act as my eyes.

Yes I know that sounds like the kid watching you eat hot chips that asks you what they taste like. But if you are on the east side of the United States, and have the power on (as I sincerely hope you do), then please snuggle up and keep warm and watch W&P and post on it for me this Monday.

[dog-days]

56 minutes ago, Walda said:

Just asking/hoping those of you who can actually watch this production on TV  post in this thread about it. Recap, critique, analyse, give your opinions on an actor or a character, scene or prop, uniform, costume, jewellery,guns, dispositions of cavalry, count the stiches removed from history, gush about what you adored, rant about what you hated, or the continuity errors you spotted, or anachronisms, whatever. I would especially like to know exactly what Prince Nikolai Bolkonsky (Andrei's / Graham Norton's dad) is turning on his lathe.

Lol, I don't think he's Graham Norton's dad. Would quite like to see a crossover in which he was, though. 

I've squinted at it, but I can't make out what's on the lathe. It just appears to be a fairly unremarkable cylindrical piece of wood that the old Prince is shaping with what looks like a small coping saw. (Oddly enough, I've just looked up woodturning, and most of the tools involved look nothing like whatever Jim Broadbent is holding.) 

[Walda]

James Norton, no relation. Oh dear.

Maybe he is using a bit and brace to drill a hole, and has just left the leg of the chair (or whatever it is) on the lathe while he does it? If the lathe was turning at the time, or it really is a coping saw, I have no idea what he thinks he is doing.

Spoiler

the only thing Tolstoy mentions him turning is snuffboxes, which seems deliberately trivial. The only tools he mentions him working with are chisels, which is proper.  He drops in a leather pouch on the lathe when he is done with them, which is eminently practical.  And it is a foot lathe, treadle operated, the latest fashion.

Thanks for looking into this for me.

[Maia]

I watched the teaser for the 4th(?) episode and ouch! these costumes :(. Not at all true to the period for the social class depicted. They are nobility, but they are dressed like merchants 50 or so years later. Here is to hoping that they don't have them playing balalaikas, like "Dr Zhivago" film infamously did with early 20-th century intelligentsia... 

Of course, I have kind of expected it after seeing a piece of promotional art featuring Prince Andrey in something pale-lila which pretended to be a uniform, but looked nothing like anything I have ever seen in period art or books devoted to Russian military history...

It still can be well-acted, of course, but my desire to see it was severely dimisnished.

[dog-days]

As I recall, the book does in fact contain a scene with a balalaika. The instrument is played by a servant, but Natasha dances to it.

I can't find any period images of the uniform for an adjutant in the Russian army of the Napoleonic era. However, Andrei seems to wear a white uniform across the adaptations. Here he is in the Bondarchuk:

 

(Apparently blocked on this website - the link is https://youtu.be/k30OO5_nEWY) 

[HexMachina]

I've heard the complaints about the costuming elsewhere too. It doesn't bother me too much (mostly because I wouldn't have known had someone else not told me) but I can see why it would bother others.

I thought tonight's episode was really good, and I definitely feel like Lily James is doing a wonderful job playing the naive and idealistic Natasha. Nothing particularly noteworthy to say I don't think, except I loved the Opera House set, and loved the dancing scene in the farmhouse (a very nice contrast to the grand ball of last week, and that followed later in this episode). And I loved seeing Count Bezukhov (meh, spelling?) being assertive for a change. Probably the first time I've felt myself rooting for/cheering for him

[Mladen]

Ah, the corruption of Rostova... Never grows old...

As for the costumes, this is the infantry... But I suppose that Bolkonsky is supposed to be cuirassier (second photo):

 

[Walda]

Spoiler

In the book, at the time of the Tsar's dance, Andrei is actually paid out of the Army altogether, however,

Andrei's father is a minister of the Tsar (I know) and a courtier, so Andrei might be wearing a court uniform, either because his father has got him some small sinecure, or as a courtesy because he is the son of Prince Vasily.

The court uniforms were more like the uniforms of George IV - all for show, very flashy and impractical, and you won't find them detailed in any army source. There are some in portraits, and some preserved in museums.

Whether or not someone like Andrei would wear a white/silver coat to the Tsars ball, I don't know. White coats were so 1798. On the other hand, it was very fashionable to dress up in some splendid faux uniform for a ball in England, and the Russian court outdid everyone when it came to splendour, so maybe it is just fashionable (in which case someone should have told Pierre).

The Tsarina was not a political player, and (as you can probably tell from the plot) estranged from the Tsar at the time, so if the uniform signified a position, her household guards would be good as an unimportant court position to slot a character into. The silver and red dress uniform looks nothing like his military uniform.

Here is what James Norton's Andrei wore to Austerlitz (1805) when he was commissioned as aide-de-camp to Kutuzov, who commanded the IV corp (of what, I'm not sure - infantry I think.) The peasant next to him is his real life dad.

Thanks for posting the page on officer's uniforms. None of them have jodpurs like his, or the tasselled sash (although, there were Russian uniforms with tassled sashes, iirc). The boots were made for riding, too. 

His rank insignia indicates a cornet? Or staff captain? On the whole he looks more like a grenadier than anything else, and there is a picture of him wearing a grenadier-ish shako, but without a plume (maybe it fell off in the heat of battle).

Has there been any sight of the Russian infantry? (the rank and file peasant conscripts, that is, not the officers) - James Norton's dad seems too finely dressed for battle, and those are a gentleman's riding boots. 

Is it true Nikolai Rostov wore his Hussar's pellise over his right shoulder? Clueless.

ETA: Dog-Days, the linked clip is from the 1954 American War and Peace, with Audrey Hepburn and Peter Fonda. Good point about the coat, though.

[dog-days]

Oops! (Really? When I use the link, it's definitely not Mel Ferrer as Prince Andrei. The hair is the wrong colour. I find most of the Natasha actresses difficult to tell apart tbh.) 

[Veltigar]

The most recent episode wasn't anything special imo. The hunting scene was breathtaking (they have done balls, battles and hunts now. I wonder what the next eye candy scene will depict), but aside from that I didn't really care all that much. I missed Paul Dano really and when he finally did come on, I thought he was a lot more enjoyable because he seemed to have found a spine he could use. Dolokhov's short appearance was nice, really like the actor. The whole plot point with Natasha falling for Antone was pretty dreadful though. It felt awfully rushed and was the main weakness this episode. 

[Scott_N]

On 17/01/2016 at 7:15 AM, HelenaExMachina said:

Eta; wondering how people feel this holds up as an adaptation. Is it doing well in terms of telling the essential story, making cuts only where necessary,changes in approrpiate places etc?

I suppose they do a decent job of telling the 'core' story (but none of the sub-plots of course) but it all feels so glossy and trivial. Lightweight, really. I appreciate this is intentional but it's a choice I find myself not particularly enjoying. 

I do concede they do spectacle well, as I think Veltigar mentioned, though maybe not so much the battle scenes. 

[Mladen]

2 hours ago, Scott_N said:

I suppose they do a decent job of telling the 'core' story (but none of the sub-plots of course) but it all feels so glossy and trivial. Lightweight, really. I appreciate this is intentional but it's a choice I find myself not particularly enjoying. 

I do concede they do spectacle well, as I think Veltigar mentioned, though maybe not so much the battle scenes. 

This is the problem that every single adaptation of Tolstoy work faces. They always seem so trivial and lightweight because the adaptations usually don't get into much detail regarding philosophical, religious and social aspect of Tolstoy's prose. Every single adaptation of Anna Karenina, for example, has adultery as the center of the story, but Levin is as much as hero as Anna is. So, I did expect in advance that this will be focused on Downton-ish side of the story with beautiful ballroom sets and costumes. 

Overall, yeah, I am enjoying this because it fits into my expectations - Bolkonsky/Rostova/Kuragins/Pierre story. I never thought it will include some socialist's aspects of Tolstoy prose

[dog-days]

Liked the episode, but felt Anatole Kuragin was perhaps miscast. I mean, he's an interesting looking actor, and I'd like to see him more (in different roles) in the future - he's not bad. But he's just such an obvious mustache-twirling cad. Or whatever the Russian equivalent of that type is. Even someone like Natasha who's lived a fairly sheltered life shouldn't be taken in by him. They should have cast someone with a slightly brighter kind of charm. 

I suppose what Davies (knowing Davies) was suggesting is that Anatole has a kind of raw sexiness that Natasha responds to. I mean, she's in her teens, her hormones must be crazy. And encountering that kind of appeal perhaps for the first time in her life after spending almost a year feeling as if she's unwanted by the Bolkonskys, and abandoned by Andrei, she just gives into the new feeling. 

Perhaps the problem is age. Lily James is 26 (her acting was first-class, I thought). Natasha is never cast anywhere near her actual age because, firstly, the interest of Andrei would seem rather creepy, secondly, it would be hard to find a sufficiently talented young actress, and thirdly, it might make the final section a bit tricky. But her age is key to understanding why Natasha behaves as she does. 

The whole series so far has been filmed beautifully. We have had very faithful adaptations of War and Peace in the past, often rather plodding in terms of the visual style for all their eye for period detail, but so far I'm not sure if we've had one that was just that gorgeous to look at. The metaphorical "chase" scene of Anatole pursuing Natasha and the real hunt were the stand outs for me this ep. (Though no way was that a pure bred wolf, it was an Alsatian with premature grey spots!). I'm happy to forgive this series its inclination to superficiality for the sake of its design and technique. 

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, dog-days said:

Liked the episode, but felt Anatole Kuragin was perhaps miscast. I mean, he's an interesting looking actor, and I'd like to see him more (in different roles) in the future - he's not bad. But he's just such an obvious mustache-twirling cad. Or whatever the Russian equivalent of that type is. Even someone like Natasha who's lived a fairly sheltered life shouldn't be taken in by him. They should have cast someone with a slightly brighter kind of charm. 

I suppose what Davies (knowing Davies) was suggesting is that Anatole has a kind of raw sexiness that Natasha responds to. I mean, she's in her teens, her hormones must be crazy. And encountering that kind of appeal perhaps for the first time in her life after spending almost a year feeling as if she's unwanted by the Bolkonskys, and abandoned by Andrei, she just gives into the new feeling. 

Perhaps the problem is age. Lily James is 26 (her acting was first-class, I thought). Natasha is never cast anywhere near her actual age because, firstly, the interest of Andrei would seem rather creepy, secondly, it would be hard to find a sufficiently talented young actress, and thirdly, it might make the final section a bit tricky. But her age is key to understanding why Natasha behaves as she does. 

The whole series so far has been filmed beautifully. We have had very faithful adaptations of War and Peace in the past, often rather plodding in terms of the visual style for all their eye for period detail, but so far I'm not sure if we've had one that was just that gorgeous to look at. The metaphorical "chase" scene of Anatole pursuing Natasha and the real hunt were the stand outs for me this ep. (Though no way was that a pure bred wolf, it was an Alsatian with premature grey spots!). I'm happy to forgive this series its inclination to superficiality for the sake of its design and technique. 

The way the show portrayed it too (again having not read the book I don't know how accurate this is) it seemed like they were trying to emphasise the social status too. Natasha is flattered by the attentions of Helene (who seems to be her social superior? Is that correct?) and her brother, and I think that, combined with her naivety and the (supposed, though I'm not really feeling it myself) raw sexual attraction of Anatole she just can't resist.

[Scott_N]

19 hours ago, Risto said:

This is the problem that every single adaptation of Tolstoy work faces. They always seem so trivial and lightweight because the adaptations usually don't get into much detail regarding philosophical, religious and social aspect of Tolstoy's prose. Every single adaptation of Anna Karenina, for example, has adultery as the center of the story, but Levin is as much as hero as Anna is. So, I did expect in advance that this will be focused on Downton-ish side of the story with beautiful ballroom sets and costumes. 

Overall, yeah, I am enjoying this because it fits into my expectations - Bolkonsky/Rostova/Kuragins/Pierre story. I never thought it will include some socialist's aspects of Tolstoy prose

It probably won't swing me to continue with the show, but those are all fair points. 

[Walda]

Thankyou all for your less than impressed reviews. Special thanks,  and welcome Scott_N.

When I first saw the stills I thought that Dolokov was Anatole. In the book,

Spoiler

"like all infantry officers" Dolokov has no moustache.

he is not in any sense a prettyboy - he is and looks like a psychopathic thug, a stone killer and a clear headed calculating opportunist.

Spoiler

and it comes as a huge surprise when he bursts into tears after being wounded in the duel, thinking of how his adored angel mother and beloved hunchbacked sister will react when they learn how he almost died.

His mother explains to Nickolai Rostov what an elevated soul her darling Fedya has as she nurses him back to health, and Dolohov reveals his moral core as he foreshadows "I don't care a straw about anyone but those I love; but those I love, I love so that I would give my life for them, and the others I'd throttle if they stood in my way... I only care about them in so far as they are harmful or useful. And most of them are harmful, especially the women... if I still value my life it is only because I still hope to meet such a divine creature [ie. uncorrupted woman, that he has never seen in real life. W], who will regenerate, purify, and elevate me. But you don't understand it."

In the books, Anatole is gorgeous, and Helene's huge knockers are important to the plot (basically, Pierre is mesmerised by them whenever he is in her company, and only remembers she is stupid and he doesn't love her when he can't see them).

Anatole and Helene are both morons, but they know how to keep their mouths shut and be polite, if not how to keep it in their pants.

Spoiler

Their elder brother Hippolyte and their father are morons too, but without the looks or the sex. Hippolyte is really too light-headed and inbred to do courtesy properly either, much to his father's despair.

Callum Turner could be is a model, but they highlight the beady eyes and the big snoz and that unflattering haircut makes him look so stoatish it is hard to understand why Natasha can't recognise pure evil when she sees it and just run and hide.

My idea of what he should look like is ridiculously close to the manly good looks of this show's Andrei, only with blond hair (his sister is a blond, too - a latter day Helen of Troy, no less. They are like Jaime and Cersei, only Russian. Btw, I am sure GRRM stole Princess Marya's large, luminous and beautiful blue eyes - the only part of her that was truly beautiful, and her heavy tread and mulish manners, patchy blushes, and strange mix of idealism and innocence, for Brienne.).

Spoiler

It is Anatole, rather than Andrei, that sweeps Natasha off her feet with his smoking hot tender looks and incredibly romantic touch while dancing.

Also, in the books there is a bit of time between Andrei leaving, and handsome Anatole's courtship.

With this creepy looking Anatole, and such a dreamy romantic Andrei, it is hard to understand why Natasha would spend even half a second agonising over the choice, let alone chose Anatole.

Helena exMachina, you are right, Princess Helene is the Countess Bezukhova, wife of one of the wealthiest men in Russia, daughter of one of the Tsar's most trusted ministers, rumoured to be the current mistress of the Tsar himself, a famous society hostess in St Petersberg,  and celebrated beauty in Moscow. Natasha is just a pretty ingénue Helene has taken under her wing.

Did they show the Gothic courtship of Boris and Julie?

Spoiler

For me, that is probably the funniest part of the whole book - especially when Anatole came to visit. Although I do think Tolstoy is a bit hard on Julie "She adopted the tone of one who had suffered a great disappointment"  - as if losing her last brother to the war was a thing to be celebrated, because the wealth she inherited was all that could give a plain sexless spinster of 27 that no decent man could even feign an interest in,  a look-in with such prime manflesh as Boris and (the already secretly married) Anatole.

It seems to me that only the protective effect of her deludedly high opinion of herself prevents her from realizing how thoroughly disappointing and grimly gothic her love life truly is.

 

[Jack Bauer 24]

On 1/27/2016 at 8:08 PM, Veltigar said:

The most recent episode wasn't anything special imo. The hunting scene was breathtaking (they have done balls, battles and hunts now. I wonder what the next eye candy scene will depict), but aside from that I didn't really care all that much. I missed Paul Dano really and when he finally did come on, I thought he was a lot more enjoyable because he seemed to have found a spine he could use. Dolokhov's short appearance was nice, really like the actor. The whole plot point with Natasha falling for Antone was pretty dreadful though. It felt awfully rushed and was the main weakness this episode. 

Agreed about the Natasha plot. I found it cringe worthy and I really do enjoy the show.

[Pliskin]

That was the best episode of the show, you mean.

Natasha's corruption and fall was shot as a breathtaking thriller.