BBC's War & Peace [SPOILERS FOR THE SERIES]

[Zorral]

I didn't know this, even when I taught War and Peace, but it lifts all my history hairs now that I do know.  John Quincy Adams was the U.S. minister to Russia before during and after the French invasion.  They were as close to intimates in the czar and czarina's circles as outsiders could be.  The czar evidently even had designs on Catherine Louisa's sister's virtue when she visited, which created quite a social and diplomatic quicksand for them all to navigate.  (John Quincy's number 1 priority was to get the U.S. ships captured by both the French and British, and embargoed from all the trade ports by both France and the UK, to be allowed to free to trade.  He reported first hand the invasion to the U.S., and left early in order to negotiate the Treaty of Ghent that ended the War of 1812 in the U.S.

 

He left Catherine Louisa behind in Russia.  Then -- wtf was he thinking!!!! -- post the defeat of Napolean after the failed Russian quest, he told Catherine to come and join him -- in Paris -- across war-torn northern Europe, in winter, without any male escort, with a small child and a maid and unreliable coach driver.  She also had to raise all the money and make all the arrangements herself.  She did it.  She survived, but somewhere in her soul she never quite forgave him for this, or so it seems to me.  MMV.

 

 

[dog-days]

On 1/27/2016 at 10:28 AM, HelenaExMachina said:

The way the show portrayed it too (again having not read the book I don't know how accurate this is) it seemed like they were trying to emphasise the social status too. Natasha is flattered by the attentions of Helene (who seems to be her social superior? Is that correct?) and her brother, and I think that, combined with her naivety and the (supposed, though I'm not really feeling it myself) raw sexual attraction of Anatole she just can't resist.

Yes, that's a good point. I loved Helene's pressing of the unwilling Natasha. "Oh, but you must, you must! You're not going to make me sad, are you? Oh do  stay!" That kind of horrible manipulative line. I've met people who do that. 

Forgot to mention the bit I liked the most - Natasha dancing. They got the atmosphere just right. The sense of wildness and sincerity that broke out then. Tolstoy would perhaps view it as Natasha's true Russian nature showing through the Europeanized manners of the aristocracy. 

The young actor playing Nikolai has been doing a fine job. It's a difficult role to cast, since, like Natasha, the character grows up through it. As - I think it was Walda - was writing about the book's Dolokhov, Nikolai has a mixture of traits that aren't normally put together. Certainly not in mainstream US/UK cultural representations. On the one hand, a brash and rather brutish young man. Likes horses, hooch and whores. On the other, capable of shows of great tenderness and feeling that at least according to present day social mores, might be viewed as unmanly. The way he embraced Natasha and Sonya on the troika, for example. 

Zorral, thanks for that. I had no idea JQ Adams spent time in Russia, and still less that he obliged his wife to make her own way back through a war. 

[Zorral]

Well, actually not a war, since the war was over, the Brits had won.  But something equally perilous to a woman and small child the aftermath of many battles, where famine and banditry are rife.  In winter.

The child was President John Adams's grandson, Francis Adams, who was Lincoln's minister to Saint James during the U.S. Civil War, charged with many weighty affairs geared to keeping the Brit government sitting hard on the minority but wealthy textile owners who wanted to keep southern cotton coming in -- and to make money by shipbuiliding ironclads for the south.  But the south didn't have any credit once emancipation took place ... and the British public was anti-slavery and pro-abolition anyway.

Francis Adams was Henry Adams's father, he who wrote the definitive histories of the Jefferson and Madison administrations.  Henry was his father's private secretary on that mission, just as John Quincy had been John Adams's private secretary.  From all this family background and family archive as both actors in and recorders from front seats as history, one can see why Henry's histories are so important.

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, dog-days said:

Yes, that's a good point. I loved Helene's pressing of the unwilling Natasha. "Oh, but you must, you must! You're not going to make me sad, are you? Oh do  stay!" That kind of horrible manipulative line. I've met people who do that. 

Forgot to mention the bit I liked the most - Natasha dancing. They got the atmosphere just right. The sense of wildness and sincerity that broke out then. Tolstoy would perhaps view it as Natasha's true Russian nature showing through the Europeanized manners of the aristocracy. 

The young actor playing Nikolai has been doing a fine job. It's a difficult role to cast, since, like Natasha, the character grows up through it. As - I think it was Walda - was writing about the book's Dolokhov, Nikolai has a mixture of traits that aren't normally put together. Certainly not in mainstream US/UK cultural representations. On the one hand, a brash and rather brutish young man. Likes horses, hooch and whores. On the other, capable of shows of great tenderness and feeling that at least according to present day social mores, might be viewed as unmanly. The way he embraced Natasha and Sonya on the troika, for example. 

When it comes to casting, I am really satisfied. Of course, they look rather different than in original story, but as I said, I see it as the modern interpretation of the archetypes these characters represent. Who would be better suited to play a naive Russian girl than a girl who played Cinderella, with her curly hair, pasty face and innocent look? Look at the twins. You don't even to see what they are doing, by their facial expression, you can see that they are up to no good.So, even though they are not copycats of how Tolstoy imagined them, they do fit very nicely in what we expect them to be - a silly girl, a depressed aristocrats etc.

As for songs, I like that they are in Russian and I also enjoyed the dance scene. The thing is that it truly represent how different these two Russias were at the time. You had the court - Moscow and St. Petersburg Russia with all the glam of the European courts and its own extravaganza with incredible chandeliers and gold plating. On the other hand, Tolstoy enjoys showing us the other side of Russia - the rustic, cold, untameable, wild and in many ways, free-spirited. And he dedicates his time to show both sides of it. It was really nice to see the homage to it, since it is there for reason. To tell us the story about the country, and its people who goes to extreme in both wealth and poverty and the way how people expresses their emotions.

The show may not have the Russian soul (after all, it is BBC production) but it most certainly does it fair share to depict the Russian coexistence between civilization and wilderness.

[HexMachina]

Yes, I feel they are doing a good job with showing the contrast of the "traditional" and more wild/rural Russia versus the rich upper society life of Moscow/St. Petersburg. Agree on Natasha's dance, that was very well done, very atmospheric and a reminder of her youth (and from that, one takes the presumption of inexperience and so on) before she is faced with running in high society alongside Helene. No wonder the poor girls head was turned!

i agree that the casting in general has been great IMO, though again from the view of someone who hasn't read it yet. Standouts for me are definitely Lily James and Tuppence Middleton though. The way Middleton is playing Helene seems completely in keeping with the character (as I understand her) because everything about her is seductive and manipulative - everything she does, everything she says. 

Overall I've been impressed with the series so far. I'll probably start the book once it's over.

[Veltigar]

4 hours ago, Pliskin said:

That was the best episode of the show, you mean.

Natasha's corruption and fall was shot as a breathtaking thriller.

? Aside from the visual comparison of Anatole to the earlier seen wolf, which was neatly done,  I didn't think there was much to it. She turned at the drop of a hat from loving hunky Andrei to shifty looking Anatole. There was no depth there, everything about it was way to rushed. And tension wasn't there as well. I haven't read the novel and I knew she would never elope with the guy. 

[HexMachina]

Well I was really impressed this episode. I know I still it most every week, but this one truly did stand out to me. Very different in tone from all of the previous episodes, emotionally draining and exceptionally bleak at the end. Those final scenes in the wounded tent were...much more vivid than I had expected. I especially liked how they seemed to show that in the face of the brutal horrors of war, petty squabbles are irrelevant (I mean the reconciliation of Dolokhov/Petrushka and Andrei/Anatole here btw). 

I also thought Princess Marya was impressive in this episode. I liked the actress before now, but I think the fact she was give plenty of material this episode sold me.

I think there were some things that bothered me while I was watching but I can't think what they were just now. I'll post again if I remember 

[Mladen]

Just a moment of admiration and love for the music... That was masterfully done and the looming tome throughout the episode was truly making it special. It was truly outstanding. 

As for Marya, I always has seen her as one of the heroines of Tolstoy's prose. His female characters tend to be a bit idealistic, but where most of them are idealistic in terms of how "pure and innocent" they are, Maria possesses a true, rustic soul of Russian girl. She can be ideal woman, perfect wife, but the simplicity that woman has can never match the innocent doe-eyed Natashas for megalomaniacs like Tolstoy. So, yeah, she is truly impressive and the character is perhaps one of the most endearing in entire series.

Overall, this is truly shaping into a wonderful adaptation. And luckily we got episode dedicated to "war" part of the novel. And it was beautifully done.

[Veltigar]

Finally caught up. It was a nice episode. Although I admit that my fire for this series might have gone out a bit. The battle scenes were really good though. Really liked Napoleon and I really wished we could get more Dolokhov. 

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, Veltigar said:

Finally caught up. It was a nice episode. Although I admit that my fire for this series might have gone out a bit. The battle scenes were really good though. Really liked Napoleon and I really wished we could get more Dolokhov. 

Luckily for you, we only have one episode left

[HexMachina]

2 hours ago, Risto said:

Luckily for you, we only have one episode left

We do? Damn, that crept up on me. How disappointing. I hope something relatively good replaces it...*not hopeful* 

[Mladen]

25 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

We do? Damn, that crept up on me. How disappointing. I hope something relatively good replaces it...*not hopeful* 

Well, it has only 6 episodes... We have seen Episode 5, so the finale is this Sunday. At least, for us Europeans

[Jack Bauer 24]

4 hours ago, Veltigar said:

Finally caught up. It was a nice episode. Although I admit that my fire for this series might have gone out a bit. The battle scenes were really good though. Really liked Napoleon and I really wished we could get more Dolokhov. 

Although I'm still enjoying it I feel the same way.

[Iskaral Pust]

I've seen three eps so far in the US and I'm really enjoying it. Adaptations are tricky and this is more Natasha-centric than the book, but for obvious reasons within the medium. They do still capture Tolstoy's underlying depiction of Russian cultural ideals in his characters, thankfully without being as heavy handed as Downton Abbey.

Helene is very well cast, Lily James does a good job in a role for which she is a little too old, Sonya is badly miscast and too mousy and insipid, and Anatole is grievously miscast as an ugly, leering lout. Some of the secondary characters are doing quite well - the Rostovs, Bolkonskys and the elder Kuragin. In the first two eps I was rolling my eyes at the cartoonish evil of Anatole and Dolokhov.

The military campaign is under-represented. They still have nods at how the changing morale and attitude of the Russian people were manifest in the army, but a pretty big omission from the tale.

[HexMachina]

I'm still watching the final episode,but just want to say hats off to Tuppence Middleton because i thought she was great. Though now I've finished watching I can't help but feel Helene's story seemed very rushed. Would I be correct in assuming it is elaborated on more in the novel? 

This winter march is very well done too. I feel icy just watching it. 

Eta; some more thoughts after watching the whole episode.

Found myself really rooting for Bezukhov when he was trying to help the peasantry in a burning Moscow. And his tante reactions with the peasant and his dog were very well done IMO. 

Natasha and Andrei meeting again and making amends was sweet but made his death all the more tragic. And unfortunately I just did not sense any chemistry at all between Natasha and Bezukhov. 

I feel like Sonya was really handed the short straw, in the sense that she really got nothing in the end. And this just seemed to get glossed over as "oh I'm used to it by now," which was a bit of a shame. 

I liked Nikolai and the Princess coming together. But again, I feel they rushed through the conflict Nikolai had over feeling like a charity case.

Overall I reall loved the finale, and the series as a whole, but I think this episode in particular was perhaps the most glaringly obvious for suffering due to time constraints. Still, very happy with the series and it's been a great way to kick off my TV year  

[Jack Bauer 24]

That was a beautiful finale.

[Walda]

On 25/1/2016 at 6:15 PM, dog-days said:

Oops! (Really? When I use the link, it's definitely not Mel Ferrer as Prince Andrei. The hair is the wrong colour. I find most of the Natasha actresses difficult to tell apart tbh.) 

Sorry, my mistake. It's Bonderchuk's version, and that beautiful acting is Lyudmila Savelyeva. I've seen the 1956 American War and Peace now, and there is no mistaking the two.

Poor Audrey Hepburn looks like this: and they dance a Victorian waltz, not the 1805 version. The whole thing reminds me of That Hamilton Woman, no matter how hard they try, and they try really hard, they are still stuck in the Hollywood Studio system and it shows, in everything. Stilted and horrible to look at, especially in contrast to the beautiful, luminous '66 version.

Also, the 'coping saw' in episode two is a draw knife. It seems a bit peculiar that he has put his billet in the lathe before using this - I would have thought a vice or a shaving horse would have been more to the purpose, but to each his own, and I'm glad to get a glimpse of the lathe, anyway.

Loving what I'm seeing of this version so far.

So many beautiful scenes, well acted, and, for all its minor (or, in the case of the Bourbon émigré with the Légion d'honneur, not so minor) errors, it is far from a travesty, and there are some lovely period pieces among the anachronisms (and some of them are beautiful to look at, even if they are not authentically 1805 or 1812).

 

[Mladen]

It was beautifully ended and I have to say that I have been overwhelmingly satisfied with how this have turned out to be. We already spoke about how entirely military campaign has been underused, but with the focus on Pierre and Natasha and what they have been through, one does understand it. They were able to depict some wonderful things about Tolstoy prose and even though it is not an entire testimony of life in 1800s Russia, it most certainly represent the story of one man's journey to happiness. Does that make this adaptation superficial? No. It just makes it what it always was. And that is why I have profoundly loved this.

I especially liked how production served as the background for Tolstoy's prose. As a realist, Tolstoy loved to go into infinite descriptions of the world around us, and with impactful shots, the entire series had that sense. It may have felt a bit rushed in terms that you don't have the time to absorb every little detail, but it did show what it intended. This episode also had a beautiful and striking contrast in aesthetics completely tearing down entire thing into ash, smoke and dust. From the pristine halls and frivolous balls to the dirt, pain and horror, it truly made a nice transition.

Overall, great deal of fun. And that music was amazing. Loved every tune of it. Cast did a great work and the two MVPs of this episode are the guys playing Pierre and Nikolai. Great ending to a great adaptation.