Would you like an AFFC/ADWD like split of Winds?

[Ser Didymus]

The problem is that 1) the split is insane because Jon, Dany and Tyrion are 3 of the most important characters and to have nothing of them and instead get stuck with 100 Brienne chapters where she travels around looking for the red headed gal....a bunch of random, pointless Dorne chapters,  all of which adds up to a jumble of nothingness in terms of a novel....

That's why people were livid.

Brienne had 8 chapters in AFFC.  Eight...  all of which further developed the post-Wo5K world these characters have been forced to live in.  Brienne meets Randyll Tarly, Septon Merribald, the Elder Brother and his grave digger, Gendry, the BWB, Lady Stoneheart and a variety of lesser characters in her travels.  if you got nothing out of those chapters besides "i'm looking for a highborn maid of three-and-ten, with a fair face and auburn hair..." then i am surprised/impressed that you even made it that far into the book series. 

[Cas Stark]

Brienne had 8 chapters in AFFC.  Eight...  all of which further developed the post-Wo5K world these characters have been forced to live in.  Brienne meets Randyll Tarly, Septon Merribald, the Elder Brother and his grave digger, Gendry, the BWB, Lady Stoneheart and a variety of lesser characters in her travels.  if you got nothing out of those chapters besides "i'm looking for a highborn maid of three-and-ten, with a fair face and auburn hair..." then i am surprised/impressed that you even made it that far into the book series. 

The only thing out of all of that which is of any real significance is Stoneheart, and that could have been done in a Jamie POV.  The elder brother and gravedigger could have been introduced some other way.  As for her meeting Gendry, Tarly, the future high sparrow, eh, none of that is really important or central to the story.  She does nothing of any importance to the main story until she gets captured by Stoneheart.  She never should have been a POV character in the first place.  Ditto for Arys Oakheart, the Damphair, Areo Hotah and Quentyn Martell.

[Ser Didymus]

we expected Feast to pick up right where Storm left off and when it didn't, well just lucky for GRRM that was still the relative early stages of social media.

he could get away with it now, short term, but that would risk a massive boycott of DoS when/if that comes out as social media is much less forgiving in 2016 than it was in 2005.

"social media" is nothing but the PEOPLE who use it.  PEOPLE are less forgiving now because they have an outlet for their frustrations (social media) without the accountability to necessitate real thought behind their words (anonymity).  

[Ser Didymus]

The only thing out of all of that which is of any real significance is Stoneheart, and that could have been done in a Jamie POV.  The elder brother and gravedigger could have been introduced some other way.  As for her meeting Gendry, Tarly, the future high sparrow, eh, none of that is really important or central to the story.  She does nothing of any importance to the main story until she gets captured by Stoneheart.  She never should have been a POV character in the first place.  Ditto for Arys Oakheart, the Damphair, Areo Hotah and Quentyn Martell.

her chapters felt very similar to the "Knight of the Seven Kingdoms" stories, as i believe was the intent of the author.  "it's not about the destination, but the journey instead."  character development is an end unto itself.

you're choosing to assign ultimate value to the character of Lady Stoneheart, whereas i see a wealth of literary value in Brienne's chapters, well outside of the "central plot" of ASOIAF.

 because the series is far from complete, we don't even know what kind of impact Lady Stoneheart will have.... she could be the least important character mentioned by the end of the story (although i highly doubt that will be the case).

if given the chance to ask GRRM a question about ASOIAF, i would need to ask him if there are any characters he regrets making POVs, and likewise, if there were characters he wished he had given POV chapters to...

 

[Good Guy Garlan]

Brienne had 8 chapters in AFFC.  Eight...  all of which further developed the post-Wo5K world these characters have been forced to live in.  Brienne meets Randyll Tarly, Septon Merribald, the Elder Brother and his grave digger, Gendry, the BWB, Lady Stoneheart and a variety of lesser characters in her travels.  if you got nothing out of those chapters besides "i'm looking for a highborn maid of three-and-ten, with a fair face and auburn hair..." then i am surprised/impressed that you even made it that far into the book series. 

Why is Merribald so important? Oh, that's right, it's that monologue that people like to pretend was written by William Faulkner's ghost. The monologue that spoonfeeds the reader what has been increasingly obvious for four books: that war sucks and turns men into monsters. Oh my god, so original, no other writer ever made that point before!

And I'm assuming the Elder Brother is a different character than Merribald, because they're such remarkable characters that I can't tell them apart. But I guess the EB was important because in that chapter Martin may or may not have brought back yet another character from the dead, even though he criticized Tolkien from bringing back ONE character. Guess death ain't what it used to be, huh?

And how could I forget Nimble Dick, Ser Creighton and the shield painting girl! Oh, shield painting girl, I grew to love you so much. I literally can't imagine the series without you or the rest of those classic secondary characters introduced in Brienne's marvelous chapters! 

I am surprised anyone with even the slightest taste for good literature made it this far into a series that so clearly peaked in the third book. 

[Cas Stark]

her chapters felt very similar to the "Knight of the Seven Kingdoms" stories, as i believe was the intent of the author.  "it's not about the destination, but the journey instead."  character development is an end unto itself.

you're choosing to assign ultimate value to the character of Lady Stoneheart, whereas i see a wealth of literary value in Brienne's chapters, well outside of the "central plot" of ASOIAF.

 because the series is far from complete, we don't even know what kind of impact Lady Stoneheart will have.... she could be the least important character mentioned by the end of the story (although i highly doubt that will be the case).

if given the chance to ask GRRM a question about ASOIAF, i would need to ask him if there are any characters he regrets making POVs, and likewise, if there were characters he wished he had given POV chapters to...

 

He's writing novels.  Full Stop.

Thus, when you string together a random series of POVs that share nothing in common thematically, and please, don't tell me it's about the travails of war because that is just an excuse, when those random POVs just hang out there on the page, and they are all building up to nothing, there is no story arc at all, either within the individual POVS or in the novel itself, except for Cersei, then the idea that 'character development is an end in itself' is not relevant.

If he wanted to develop Brienne, he could have written a novella or some short stories.

He supposedly was writing a novel.  That generally has a progression, a theme, something that holds it together and when you come to the end, you feel that yes, it ended, it has wrapped up it's main points and themes whatever they are.

What A Feast for Crows is, is not a novel, but is, again, a random series of POVs that Martin strung together because he was frustrated that he was already lost in the weeds and couldn't get out.  He's still lost in the weeds as far as I can tell.

**The stoneheart chapter is important not necessarily because of stoneheart but because it's going to lead up to a decision of Brienne or Jamie that will be a critical turning point in their story.

[Richard Writhen]

He specifically stated in one of the front or end pieces that the splitting would stop in TWOW.

[Ser Didymus]

He's writing novels.  Full Stop.

Thus, when you string together a random series of POVs that share nothing in common thematically, and please, don't tell me it's about the travails of war because that is just an excuse, when those random POVs just hang out there on the page, and they are all building up to nothing, there is no story arc at all, either within the individual POVS or in the novel itself, except for Cersei, then the idea that 'character development is an end in itself' is not relevant.

If he wanted to develop Brienne, he could have written a novella or some short stories.

He supposedly was writing a novel.  That generally has a progression, a theme, something that holds it together and when you come to the end, you feel that yes, it ended, it has wrapped up it's main points and themes whatever they are.

What A Feast for Crows is, is not a novel, but is, again, a random series of POVs that Martin strung together because he was frustrated that he was already lost in the weeds and couldn't get out.  He's still lost in the weeds as far as I can tell.

**The stoneheart chapter is important not necessarily because of stoneheart but because it's going to lead up to a decision of Brienne or Jamie that will be a critical turning point in their story.

I'm a fan of these books.  I'm a fan of GRRM.

i don't prefer to spend my time insulting an author whose work i have been enjoying for years, and will continue to enjoy as i read new material and re-read the existing text.

there's just too much negativity around here.  that's why i have been full-time lurker and only a part-time commenter.  far too much opinion masquerading as fact.  far too many Cersei's calling the Kettleblacks.

 

[Perrin Stark]

He should just release Jon's resurrection chapter/s and that's it. That's the only thing I'd like to see before the show comes out, everything else I can wait for. 

[Cas Stark]

I'm a fan of these books.  I'm a fan of GRRM.

i don't prefer to spend my time insulting an author whose work i have been enjoying for years, and will continue to enjoy as i read new material and re-read the existing text.

there's just too much negativity around here.  that's why i have been full-time lurker and only a part-time commenter.  far too much opinion masquerading as fact.  far too many Cersei's calling the Kettleblacks.

 

To tell the truth that Feast and Dance are much inferior works to the first three novels is not an insult to the author, it's just the hard truth.  And yes I know there are people who claim they prefer these two novels and so on, but I have to believe those are not objective assessments, it's people who love Brienne and so Feast is their favorite book, because the critics were pretty unanimous that these were inferior books and an objective reader I don't see how they can NOT see that these books are seriously inferior, they are poorly structured, lack any coherence, and Dance especially is full of a ridiculous amount of filler and authorial tics.

[cutuphalfdead]

I for one think ADWD is the best of the series so far. So stop touting your opinion as fact.

[Ser Didymus]

To tell the truth that Feast and Dance are much inferior works to the first three novels is not an insult to the author, it's just the hard truth.  And yes I know there are people who claim they prefer these two novels and so on, but I have to believe those are not objective assessments, it's people who love Brienne and so Feast is their favorite book, because the critics were pretty unanimous that these were inferior books and an objective reader I don't see how they can NOT see that these books are seriously inferior, they are poorly structured, lack any coherence, and Dance especially is full of a ridiculous amount of filler and authorial tics.

it's insulting to assume the author's frustration.  it's insulting to say GRRM is "lost in the weeds."  it's insulting to refer to his book as a series of random POVs that would have nothing tying them together if not for the book binding.  

it's one thing to have an opinion.  it's another to believe that yours is the only valid opinion.

For the record:  Brienne is my least favorite POV character and AFFC is my least favorite book in the series (completed 5th read-through of the series back in the summer).  that doesn't mean i'm going to do everything in my power to tear GRRM down as an author, or impose my opinion on others as if it were scripture.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I'm a fan of these books.  I'm a fan of GRRM.

i don't prefer to spend my time insulting an author whose work i have been enjoying for years, and will continue to enjoy as i read new material and re-read the existing text.

there's just too much negativity around here.  that's why i have been full-time lurker and only a part-time commenter.  far too much opinion masquerading as fact.  far too many Cersei's calling the Kettleblacks.

 

I for one believe being a fan of an author does not equal being a yes man who confuses criticism with insults. More than praise, what authors need the most is harsh truths because that's how they improve. Do you think Gertrude Stein was all, "Oh, Ernest, this is amazing, everything's perfect, don't change a thing". In fact, I believe one of the reasons why Feast and Dance turned out the way they did was because Martin surrounded himself with people who preferred to act nice rather than speak their mind. 

What you want is a hive mind inside an echo chamber of infinite compliments towards Martin rather than people giving their opinion.

[Cas Stark]

it's insulting to assume the author's frustration.  it's insulting to say GRRM is "lost in the weeds."  it's insulting to refer to his book as a series of random POVs that would have nothing tying them together if not for the book binding.  

it's one thing to have an opinion.  it's another to believe that yours is the only valid opinion.

For the record:  Brienne is my least favorite POV character and AFFC is my least favorite book in the series (completed 5th read-through of the series back in the summer).  that doesn't mean i'm going to do everything in my power to tear GRRM down as an author, or impose my opinion on others as if it were scripture.

I don't get you.  We know the author is frustrated and we know he WAS frustrated with the writing of Feast and Dance.  He told us so himself.  He has just told us of his frustration with Winds.

I don't believe my opinion is the only valid opinion, but I can't really take seriously the people who think Feast and Dance were better than the first three.   Just like I can't take seriously people who think Daario is Euron or that Mance Raydar is Rhaegar or any of the other innumerable 'opinions' that people have about the books that I find to be crackpotish. 

GRRM is a writer.  Writers are not immune to criticism.  It is not insulting to criticize any novel, especially when the criticism is dealing with basics like structure, balance, theme, etc.  There is nothing personal there or insulting to the author.  In my OPINION.

And yes it is my further opinion that he is lost in the weeds, you act like I am the only person who has ever said this or who believes it. I'm not.  I don't see how it's insulting either.  Clearly, there is something wrong or Winds would be finished already.  It doesn't take, in my opinion, a rocket scientist to see that having added a whole new set of POVs and sub plots in Feast and Dance, where the writing took 2x longer than it had previously, that he is going to have trouble wrapping everything up in 2 books.

[Esa1996]

To tell the truth that Feast and Dance are much inferior works to the first three novels is not an insult to the author, it's just the hard truth.  And yes I know there are people who claim they prefer these two novels and so on, but I have to believe those are not objective assessments, it's people who love Brienne and so Feast is their favorite book, because the critics were pretty unanimous that these were inferior books and an objective reader I don't see how they can NOT see that these books are seriously inferior, they are poorly structured, lack any coherence, and Dance especially is full of a ridiculous amount of filler and authorial tics.

I kinda liked ADWD, but AFFC could've been cut entirely apart from the Jaime chapters (Not that they were that important either, but at least Jaime is an entertaining character) IMO. Quentyn should have been cut also so the ending could have been included.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

It does often feel to me that many chapters if AFFC/ADWD read like watching the "extended cut" version of the story, stuff that are somewhat interesting but ultimately rightly belongs on the cutting room floor.

I'm sure had Martin finished ASOIAF then 5 years later releases the extended cut with those chapters, I would have loved reading them as a fan.  I still love them but I have to agree he should have focused on writing the main story.

 

 

[Metopheles]

I really, really loved the outsider povs, Melisandre, Quentyn, Arys, Damphair(probably the most unique of all), .. these are characters that have a completely different agenda ad connection to the story. They have a very different insight into the bigger story and that is what made them great characters. 

Cersei is, and will always stay, my favourite pov in the series. The moment she had a pov, your entire view on the story changes. Beforehand you had mostly povs of "good" guys and in KL Tyrion and Sansa. Two povs who absolutely hate Cersei and the "baddies". So seeing the story from the other side, and the past events reflected as well from the villain, made it a great reading experience.

grrms big mistake was the omission of Jon or Dany. He should have had Jon in the story. Not until the ides of Marsh, but 2/3 of the story, same as with the other characters.

[Cas Stark]

I kinda liked ADWD, but AFFC could've been cut entirely apart from the Jaime chapters (Not that they were that important either, but at least Jaime is an entertaining character) IMO. Quentyn should have been cut also so the ending could have been included.

There goods parts in both books.  I thought Cersei's arc was hilarious and I loved Jamie's chapters also.  Brienne's chapter were dull as dishwater.  I loath all the Martell POVs.  Ironborn are more interesting to me, but why? Did we really need that?  Do we need Vic and the Damphair?  I doubt it. I thought the Theon chapters in Dance were spectacular.  Dance was okay but needed a serious edit.  I just reread the first 2 Tyrion chapters in Dance, and they could have  been cut in half, easily.  The same for Dany's chapters.  Even for Jon's chapters, which I generally liked in Dance.  I agree, unless those people who think Quentyn is not dead are right, then all of his POVs were a waste of time and space.

It seems very obvious to me that a good edit would have resulted in Feast/Dance as a single book and at least one of the major battles to be resolved.

So, back to the OPs question, since I thought the split was literally insane, I can't imagine what further damage a similar split would do to the rest of the series.

 

[Lord Varys]

There goods parts in both books.  I thought Cersei's arc was hilarious and I loved Jamie's chapters also.  Brienne's chapter were dull as dishwater.  I loath all the Martell POVs.  Ironborn are more interesting to me, but why? Did we really need that?  Do we need Vic and the Damphair?  I doubt it. I thought the Theon chapters in Dance were spectacular.  Dance was okay but needed a serious edit.  I just reread the first 2 Tyrion chapters in Dance, and they could have  been cut in half, easily.  The same for Dany's chapters.  Even for Jon's chapters, which I generally liked in Dance.  I agree, unless those people who think Quentyn is not dead are right, then all of his POVs were a waste of time and space.

It seems very obvious to me that a good edit would have resulted in Feast/Dance as a single book and at least one of the major battles to be resolved.

So, back to the OPs question, since I thought the split was literally insane, I can't imagine what further damage a similar split would do to the rest of the series.

You often give the impression you know where the story is headed. Did it cross your mind that Brienne, the Ironborn, and the Dornish characters as well as Melisandre and Connington were introduced as POVs for a reason? A reason that has to do with the planned story for the later books.

If it turns out that Brienne and all the other new POVs die soon then their stories in AFfC and ADwD were indeed a huge waste of time. But I'd be surprised if that was the case.

It may turn out that some of those characters are actually more important to the plot now than some of the core POVs from AGoT.

[The Fattest Leech]

 

If he wanted to develop Brienne, he could have written a novella or some short stories.

-snipped-

He did. It's called The Hedge Knight and then The Sworn Sword and then The Mystery Knight . AFFC was written about the middle part of these stories. Martin is an excellent short story writer and seemed to have been reliving those days when he wrote AFFC. This could have inturn inspired the way Brienne's story unfolded either subconsciously or because it was heavily hinted in Feast that Brienne is Dunk's granddaughter. George did say at this time we would see a Dunk heir and George loves him some parrallels. 

In thoroughly enjoyed these two books but man did they drag. They could have been one book by killing a few darlings as they popped up.