Robb stark letter plays key role for jon ?

[Ice Turtle]

If Jon was not born a girl as expected there would be no need to name him after the original trio because he wouldn't fit in the two sisters one brother scenario anyway.

Actually it is still only a fan assumption that Rhaegar aimed for a second girl. It is clear that he though there must be three children, but it is never outright stated that it had to be two girls and one boy. Original Visneya was the oldest one, so if Rhaegar was so strict about that Rhaenys would be likely named after her as the firstborn.

[The Bold Wolf]

This is a huge assumption that lacks all real evidence. Was Rhaegar recreating the heads of the dragon? or was he just naming his children after Aegon and Rheanys, who loved each other? Also, would Rheagar name his son Viserys when his little brother already has that name?

Rhaegar married Ellia Martell because there wasn't a Targaryen female for him to wed, so could he just be naming his children Aegon and Rhaenys because he liked the idea of them being together like the first Aegon and Rhaenys, only married?

[RobOsevens]

28 minutes ago, Ice Turtle said:

If Jon was not born a girl as expected there would be no need to name him after the original trio because he wouldn't fit in the two sisters one brother scenario anyway.

Actually it is still only a fan assumption that Rhaegar aimed for a second girl. It is clear that he though there must be three children, but it is never outright stated that it had to be two girls and one boy. Original Visneya was the oldest one, so if Rhaegar was so strict about that Rhaenys would be likely named after her as the firstborn.

I'm not sure about this it may be Rhaegar's interpretation that there has to be three children and he may have misinterpreted things. Aemon seems to think so with the whole prince/princess translation of dragons.

[StarkofWinterfell]

1 hour ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Wait, so people reading 7 books that all contain POVs from Jon, are suddenly going to be confused about who Jon is because fof his Targaryen name?

The whole book is filled with subtle things that most people wont get. With out the internet who many people will get R+L=J? OR A+J=T? or the Gravedigger is the Hound, etc....

Of course Viserys wasn't a good guy. But having Jon named Viserys (or another male version of Visenya) is not naming him after Viserys III, it is after Visenya.

That is the disconnect. People will see Viserys Targaryen (assuming R+L=J is true) and not Jon Snow. POV chapters will be named "Viserys" and so on and so forth. People on this board are in the minority of the fanbase. The masses will not understand it, ergo GRRM won't go this route.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

1 hour ago, Ice Turtle said:

If Jon was not born a girl as expected there would be no need to name him after the original trio because he wouldn't fit in the two sisters one brother scenario anyway.

Actually it is still only a fan assumption that Rhaegar aimed for a second girl. It is clear that he though there must be three children, but it is never outright stated that it had to be two girls and one boy. Original Visneya was the oldest one, so if Rhaegar was so strict about that Rhaenys would be likely named after her as the firstborn.

Except that both Rhaegar and his mother Rhaella are named after Rhaeneys. Maybe that named meant something more to him than Visenya?

 

 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

30 minutes ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

That is the disconnect. People will see Viserys Targaryen (assuming R+L=J is true) and not Jon Snow. POV chapters will be named "Viserys" and so on and so forth. People on this board are in the minority of the fanbase. The masses will not understand it, ergo GRRM won't go this route.

Ergo GRRM wont go this route... lol. ok.

The last books chapters barely even used names, instead using weird monikers.

Most people are were not going to see R+L=J coming either, so GRRM was not going to do that?

[StarkofWinterfell]

24 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Ergo GRRM wont go this route... lol. ok.

The last books chapters barely even used names, instead using weird monikers.

Most people are were not going to see R+L=J coming either, so GRRM was not going to do that?

I'm still not convinced about R+L=J in almost a decade of research and reading. But it seems you've missed the point entirely.

It's not that people "won't see it coming," it is that it would be too confusing for the vast majority of readers to liken Jon to Viserys

[Lord Friendzone]

4 hours ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

I dont think this will be a happy ever after love story, I think this is a political marriage to prevent further war and to unite the two sides after the battle with the Others.

Jon will not want the Iron Throne, he will join with Daenerys and accept it to unite the realm.

It will be love, as Jon is part of her vision and he is "mount to love" or maybe it is Ghost. Political marriage is unlikely at this point.

Again, when there is viable option and competent ruler let's say. No need for him to enter the game, but will see.

To the point of his name. He might was intended to be given a different name, but it doesn't matter now. He is Jon until the end, it would confuse and annoy a good portion of fans. As I said he doesn't need to adopt his original name and if there is some to convince Dany or anyone. He needs proof like combination of Rhaegar's will, wedding cloak and harp or something else in the crypts and let's be honest something is there. Or maybe bonding with a dragon will be the key. Who knows, All he needs is this kind of evidence, to convince Dany and take on Targaryen as Jon Targaryen...and he's golden. If he'll choose to name himself differently it would be just so unlike Jon and it would be a bad move in general. There is no practical need for this unlike his surname, which would needed to be changed in order to rule.

[StarkofWinterfell]

4 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

It will be love, as Jon is part of her vision and he is "mount to love" or maybe it is Ghost. Political marriage is unlikely at this point.

Again, when there is viable option and competent ruler let's say. No need for him to enter the game, but will see.

To the point of his name. He might was intended to be given a different name, but it doesn't matter now. He is Jon until the end, it would confuse and annoy a good portion of fans. As I said he doesn't need to adopt his original name and if there is some to convince Dany or anyone. He needs proof like combination of Rhaegar's will, wedding cloak and harp or something else in the crypts and let's be honest something is there. Or maybe bonding with a dragon will be the key. Who knows, All he needs is this kind of evidence, to convince Dany and take on Targaryen as Jon Targaryen...and he's golden. If he'll choose to name himself differently it would be just so unlike Jon and it would be a bad move in general. There is no practical need for this unlike his surname, which would needed to be changed in order to rule.

Thank you! Finally some sense!

[Ice Turtle]

2 hours ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Except that both Rhaegar and his mother Rhaella are named after Rhaeneys. Maybe that named meant something more to him than Visenya?

 

 

That would again only mean that recreating the original trio wasn't what he aimed for.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

6 minutes ago, Ice Turtle said:

That would again only mean that recreating the original trio wasn't what he aimed for.

Why, how could Rhaegar be assured that all three of the kids would be born in the correct order/ sex? What if he had a boy first? He would have just said "fuck it? I dont need to have kids that save the world"?

Their ages and order of their births have zero to do with trying to re-create the Three Heads of the Dragon.

He is trying to re-create the Original Three heads and has a kid named Aegon and one named Rhaeneys. What was he going to name the third one? Bob?

[The Bold Wolf]

3 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Why, how could Rhaegar be assured that all three of the kids would be born in the correct order/ sex? What if he had a boy first? He would have just said "fuck it? I dont need to have kids that save the world"?

Their ages and order of their births have zero to do with trying to re-create the Three Heads of the Dragon.

He is trying to re-create the Original Three heads and has a kid named Aegon and one named Rhaeneys. What was he going to name the third one? Bob?

Rhaegar would have known all of the old Valyrian names, so literally any old Valryian name would suffice. 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

2 minutes ago, The Bold Wolf said:

Rhaegar would have known all of the old Valyrian names, so literally any old Valryian name would suffice. 

for the Third Head of the Dragon, when the first two are Aegon and Rhaeneys?

[The Bold Wolf]

2 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

for the Third Head of the Dragon, when the first two are Aegon and Rhaeneys?

I might be on board with you on this, if Viserys wasn't already a known character in the present day, and being Rhaegar's brother too. I'm sure GRRM wouldn't have named him Viserys,if he intended to have Jon's true name to be Viserys as well.

[Ice Turtle]

8 hours ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Why, how could Rhaegar be assured that all three of the kids would be born in the correct order/ sex? What if he had a boy first? He would have just said "fuck it? I dont need to have kids that save the world"?

Their ages and order of their births have zero to do with trying to re-create the Three Heads of the Dragon.

He is trying to re-create the Original Three heads and has a kid named Aegon and one named Rhaeneys. What was he going to name the third one? Bob?

Obviously he couldn't but that is the point. A lot of people assume that he believed based on prophecy that it would be that way.

If the birds order and sex have zero to do with success of three heads that it is even more likely that Rhaegar did not care for the names and simply wanted three children of any gender and choose the names based on entirely different criteria.

So what we are arguing about is if he was indeed trying to recreate original trio with matching names and gender or simply produce tree children. And as Visneya should have been a name of the older sister and nothing was stopping Rhaegar from naming his firsborn daughter after her,  the combination of Rhaenys and Aegon should be just coincidence a it is just as likely that Rhaegar might have named the third child Aemon, Daeron, Alysanne, Daena, Baleor or any other Targ and maybe even Stark name if Lyanna preferred it that way.

[Bastetcat]

On 2016. február 3. at 6:45 PM, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Rhaegar named his three kids after the original three heads of the Dragon: Aegon, Rhaeneys and Visenya

Viserys is the only male version of Visenya that we have seen in the books (other than Viserion the dragon).

Now, it is possible that Jon would have a different male version of Visenya, and GRRM has purposefully not shown the name before because he is saving it for Jon.

But, basically Rhaegar would have assumed that Jon would be a girl and named her Visenya, but knowing there was a chance that the baby was a boy, he told Lyanna that Viserys should be the boy's name.

Varys!

 

[Curled Finger]

I was going to just scan this but it got interesting, thanks!   I think it's clear that Rhaegar was attempting to fulfill prophesy through his children.  There was a time he believed he was TPTWP but he decided he was not.  Maybe because the next living sibling was a brother, who knows why.   At some point he became convinced his children were the 2nd coming of Aegon and his conquering sisters.   It is really interesting that he got the 1st 2 in correct birth order but chose to name the daughter out of order, Rhaenys was the younger sister.   The 3rd child was the whole point of running off with Lyanna, to produce a 2nd daughter.  Wonder what he would of thought of little Vito Targaryan? (Kidding)

[Curled Finger]

On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 7:59 AM, ser gerold said:

iam sure that jon will be back.when reading adwd i stumbled upon the passage where mormonts raven says "king" once and again says " jon snow".As jon recalls that the bird never said his full name before.It means two things , one is jon the true king to sit on the iron throne and the second thing is may be lady mormont and mallisters along with glover would show up on the wall holding robb's later to make him king as he is free from his vows once ressurected.only manderly knows rickon is alive and he is far away storm bound.So jon may become king this way in the books.

Sorry ser gerold, back on topic.   We aren't really certain exactly what Robb stated in his will.   I am hoping that there was a legitimization for Jon as a 2nd step in preparing him for the bombshell of his parentage. 

On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 2:17 PM, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Jon's journey is from humble beginnings to the King of Westeros, but there is a progression

Bastard of Winterfell Jon Snow > Brother of the Night's Watch Jon Snow > Lord Commander Lord Snow > King in the North/ King of the Trident Jon Stark > King of Westeros Viserys "Jon" Targaryen

As King Viserys Targ 4 stated, this is the progression this character is to make.   Jon has so many problems with who he is and wants to know about his mother.   Truth is, his mind will be blown when he finds out, so these baby steps are a much better way for him to establish his identify to himself before trying to for anyone else.   We may think he was a TOPS LC, but the men he oversaw thought he sucked.   They didn't get him at all and see how that worked out.   Jon Snow requires these incremental steps to his eventual greatness...maybe all Westeros requires it as well.

[Rob Storm]

If prophecy is at play then isn't the fact that Jon was a boy contradict the whole process?  I don't even know if I subscribe to this concept but isn't it more likely if all this prophecy is believed to be true then Daenerys could in fact be Rhaegar's third child and intended to be named Visenya.  Instead she was born in Dorne and given a Targaryen/Dornish name in Daenerys and raised for a few years with some lemon trees down south. 

[Lord Wraith]

12 minutes ago, Rob Storm said:

If prophecy is at play then isn't the fact that Jon was a boy contradict the whole process?  I don't even know if I subscribe to this concept but isn't it more likely if all this prophecy is believed to be true then Daenerys could in fact be Rhaegar's third child and intended to be named Visenya.  Instead she was born in Dorne and given a Targaryen/Dornish name in Daenerys and raised for a few years with some lemon trees down south. 

Rhaegar's naming scheme certainly would be looking for a Visenya. Some people theorize that Dany is the one born at the Tower of Joy. Since Rhaegar and Lyanna are both dead Daenerys makes sense as a name since she was the princess to marriage Dorne bringing it into the realm.