A+J=T v.8

[UnmaskedLurker]

1 minute ago, purple-eyes said:

Actually, Kingswood battle can possibly happen in late 280. 

Jaime was 15 when he was knighted. 

He was born 276. 

He could be 15 years old in 280 too. 

I am not following your math. He was born in 266 (I assume 276 was a typo -- and you meant 266). He first turns 15 some time in 281. Whether he was born on the first or last day of 266 does not matter. He turns 15 at some time during 281 -- the oldest he can be during 280 is 14 (you do not "round up" people's ages so at 14-1/2 he is still 14 and not 15). (266 + 15 = 281). He technically remains 15 until he turns 16 -- which is some time in 282. So if all we know is that he become KG when he is 15 then it must be during 281 or 282.

BUT -- RT points out that he is made KG during the tourney that is known to have taken place during 281. So mystery solved -- Jaime become KG in 281.

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

The passage from Storm suggests that Jaime didn't go and present himself to Aerys to ask him.

He remembered that night as if it were yesterday. They spent it in an old inn on Eel Alley, well away from watchful eyes. Cersei had come to him dressed as a simple serving wench, which somehow excited him all the more. Jaime had never seen her more passionate. Every time he went to sleep, she woke him again. By morning Casterly Rock seemed a small price to pay to be near her always. He gave his consent, and Cersei promised to do the rest.

Yeah, but what was 'the rest', exactly? Her telling Aerys that her twin brother wanted to join the Kingsguard? Or her telling Aerys that her brother wanted to present himself to him so that he could tell him that he wanted to join the Kingsguard? Aerys telling Tywin that Jaime - a minor at this point - would join his KG without ever asking the king himself to grant him that honor (prior to Harrenhal, that is) seems to be somewhat strange.

After all, if there was no informal agreement between Aerys and Jaime that Jaime would join the Kingsguard Tywin could actually have taken steps to prevent Jaime from going to Harrenhal (say, by abducting him on the road or simply not allowing him to go there and imprison him at Casterly Rock). If the legal contract between Jaime and Aerys only began with the investiture at Harrenhal, the Aerys couldn't even have complained - after all, up to the point of Jaime swearing his vows he wasn't yet a Sworn Brother of Kingsguard, and he could not be forced to swear that oath if he had changed his mind between KL and Harrenhal (or Tywin had forced him to change his mind).

[purple-eyes]

2 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I am not following your math. He was born in 266 (I assume 276 was a typo -- and you meant 266). He first turns 15 some time in 281. Whether he was born on the first or last day of 266 does not matter. He turns 15 at some time during 281 -- the oldest he can be during 280 is 14 (you do not "round up" people's ages so at 14-1/2 he is still 14 and not 15). (266 + 15 = 281). He technically remains 15 until he turns 16 -- which is some time in 282. So if all we know is that he become KG when he is 15 then it must be during 281 or 282.

BUT -- RT points out that he is made KG during the tourney that is known to have taken place during 281. So mystery solved -- Jaime become KG in 281.

Oh, I thought if he was born in 266, then in 280, he could be 14, or 15. Am I wrong on this?

Just like If somebody was born in 200, then in 202, he can be 2 Or 3. Right? 

I am not that good on math on age, I do admit. 

 

 

[purple-eyes]

Jaime was raised to KG in 281, sure. Tourney happened in 281. 

But his knighthood maybe in late 280. When he was 15. 

If tourney is in feb, battle happened in dec. 

he can still be 15 for both. 

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

Just now, purple-eyes said:

Oh, I thought if he was born in 266, then in 280, he could be 14, or 15. Am I wrong on this?

Just like If somebody was born in 200, then in 202, he can be 2 Or 3. Right? 

I am not that good on math on age, I do admit. 

 

 

Sorry, it does not work that way. Let's use a real world example. Assume someone is born on January 1, 2000. That person turns 1 on January 1, 2001, and turns 2 on January 1, 2002. So in 2002, that person is 2 the entire year. Now let's look at someone born on December 31, 2000. That person also is born in 2000, but turns 1 on December 31, 2001, and turns 2 on December 31, 2002. So during 2002, that person is 1 for almost the entire year, until the last day of the year when the person become 2. In other words, during 2002, a person born in 2000 is either 1 or 2 -- but cannot yet be 3.

So if Jaime is born in 266, he turns 15 some time during 281 and turns 16 some time during 282. Something that happens when Jaime is 15 will happen either during 281 or 282.

[Roddy Darwin]

Hey guys, sorry if this has been covered already, I don't really keep up with these threads (although I'm one of them people changed their mind about the theory after reading the World Book and I'm all with yall now).

Anyway, have you seen this?

https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2016/01/21/the-complete-notablog-asoiaf-resource/

In particular, that one is particularly interesting to the A+J=T imo:

Well, I made my appearance on Sheep Island a few hours ago, cleverly disguised as Tyrion the Imp for a reading and Q&A session at Bantam’s virtual bookstore. Only this version of Tyrion could fly! Ah, if only the Tyrion in the books could fly, what mischief he will… ah… could… ah, never mind.

(TL;DR: that's GRRM talking about he went to a Second Life event as a Tyrion character)

[Lord Lannister]

11 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

IIRC -- It was after his kidnapping in connection with the Defiance of Duskendale when Aerys started to act really crazy and paranoid.

Paranoid, I'll grant you. The beginnings of the crazy bit seemed to be there before with his schemes like building a second wall north of The Wall, conquering Braavos and building an aqueduct to bring water to Dorne's desert.

[UnmaskedLurker]

13 hours ago, Roddy Darwin said:

Hey guys, sorry if this has been covered already, I don't really keep up with these threads (although I'm one of them people changed their mind about the theory after reading the World Book and I'm all with yall now).

Anyway, have you seen this?

https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2016/01/21/the-complete-notablog-asoiaf-resource/

In particular, that one is particularly interesting to the A+J=T imo:

 

(TL;DR: that's GRRM talking about he went to a Second Life event as a Tyrion character)

Welcome to A+J=T. 

I believe that quote has been reference -- but I never get enough of it. Of course, GRRM might only be teasing those of us who think that Tyrion is a Targ bastard and will bond with a dragon. But the quote does seem to add even more fuel to the fire (as the world book obviously did).

[A spoon of knife and fork]

5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Paranoid, I'll grant you. The beginnings of the crazy bit seemed to be there before with his schemes like building a second wall north of The Wall, conquering Braavos and building an aqueduct to bring water to Dorne's desert.

I think he was always a bit "touched" as well as cruel and selfish, much like Viserys.  There's not much unbiased evidence he was a good person ever TBH, Just that he was better at hiding it.  Even Barristan (who has every reason to want Aerys to come across well) only says "he could be charming in his youth" which is faint praise.

Also the pro-Lannister historians would want to paint a picture that Aerys was a good and decent fellow when Tywin and he were friends/allies, but then he changed and got way worse to Tywin had no choice but to abandon him.  So it's not that surprising. 

I do think he was way more paranoid after Duskendale (understandably) and that his filter was stripped away so he was lashing out cruelly Much more often.

i just don't think it's likely that his time in Duskendale would "cause" him to suddenly become entitled cruel and viscous if before he was a caring individual.  Paranoid, sure.   

[Lord Varys]

18 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

I think he was always a bit "touched" as well as cruel and selfish, much like Viserys.  There's not much unbiased evidence he was a good person ever TBH, Just that he was better at hiding it.  Even Barristan (who has every reason to want Aerys to come across well) only says "he could be charming in his youth" which is faint praise.

Also the pro-Lannister historians would want to paint a picture that Aerys was a good and decent fellow when Tywin and he were friends/allies, but then he changed and got way worse to Tywin had no choice but to abandon him.  So it's not that surprising. 

I do think he was way more paranoid after Duskendale (understandably) and that his filter was stripped away so he was lashing out cruelly Much more often.

i just don't think it's likely that his time in Duskendale would "cause" him to suddenly become entitled cruel and viscous if before he was a caring individual.  Paranoid, sure.   

The early 'mad ideas' were just symptoms of him being eccentric. Those projects would have been insanely expensive, but they could have been done. After all, this is a world in which castles like Harrenhal can be built in four decades...

Aerys was certainly no 'nice guy' in his youth, but he wasn't cruel, either. He was capricious royal prick, a self-involved king who took what he wanted, and didn't care all that much about the feelings of other people (especially about the feelings of all the women he deflowered and then threw away). But there is no sign that he was particularly cruel in the 260s or the early 270s. That came when his lapses grew more frequent, and grew particularly worse after Duskendale.

Other Targaryens had natural sadistic tendencies (Maegor, Daemon, Aerion), but Aerys had no such tendencies. He only became fascinated by fire during when his madness reached the final stages, and his cruel tendencies seemed to be completely connected to the fascination for fire. We don't read anything about him ever personally torturing somebody (like Maegor did), whipping messengers with his own hands (like Daemon did), or chastising traitors with his own hand (like Aerion did, in THK). Aerys eventually just liked the sight of people burning - which seems to have to do more with his deteriorating mental health than a trait he consciously developed.

In fact, you can even make a case that the way he clawed at Rhaella during those rapes wasn't Aerys being consciously sadistic but Aerys suffering from delusions of being a living dragon, taking his pleasure on his 'dragon spouse' or 'devouring his enemies in his dragon form'. Unlike many other cruel people in Westeros Aerys can honestly claim that he was physically sick and would never have done much of the things he did if he had not suffered from an unspecified mental illness (possibly some form of schizophrenia). 

The younger Aerys actually wanted to look good and just and all, and thus most likely would have been prone to be a more lenient judge than Tywin used to be, especially when Aerys wanted to make Tywin look bad. After all, Aerys II wanted to be 'Aerys the Great' or 'Aerys the Wise', not 'Aerys the Cruel' or 'Aerys the Mad'...

[A spoon of knife and fork]

28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The early 'mad ideas' were just symptoms of him being eccentric. Those projects would have been insanely expensive, but they could have been done. After all, this is a world in which castles like Harrenhal can be built in four decades...

Aerys was certainly no 'nice guy' in his youth, but he wasn't cruel, either. He was capricious royal prick, a self-involved king who took what he wanted, and didn't care all that much about the feelings of other people (especially about the feelings of all the women he deflowered and then threw away). But there is no sign that he was particularly cruel in the 260s or the early 270s. That came when his lapses grew more frequent, and grew particularly worse after Duskendale.

Other Targaryens had natural sadistic tendencies (Maegor, Daemon, Aerion), but Aerys had no such tendencies. He only became fascinated by fire during when his madness reached the final stages, and his cruel tendencies seemed to be completely connected to the fascination for fire. We don't read anything about him ever personally torturing somebody (like Maegor did), whipping messengers with his own hands (like Daemon did), or chastising traitors with his own hand (like Aerion did, in THK). Aerys eventually just liked the sight of people burning - which seems to have to do more with his deteriorating mental health than a trait he consciously developed.

In fact, you can even make a case that the way he clawed at Rhaella during those rapes wasn't Aerys being consciously sadistic but Aerys suffering from delusions of being a living dragon, taking his pleasure on his 'dragon spouse' or 'devouring his enemies in his dragon form'. Unlike many other cruel people in Westeros Aerys can honestly claim that he was physically sick and would never have done much of the things he did if he had not suffered from an unspecified mental illness (possibly some form of schizophrenia). 

The younger Aerys actually wanted to look good and just and all, and thus most likely would have been prone to be a more lenient judge than Tywin used to be, especially when Aerys wanted to make Tywin look bad. After all, Aerys II wanted to be 'Aerys the Great' or 'Aerys the Wise', not 'Aerys the Cruel' or 'Aerys the Mad'...

This is mostly consistent with my view of him.  "Capricious royal prick" also describes Viserys and Aerion pretty well.  Also as you say, his ideas were pretty ridiculously useless, ultimately.  .  

And yeah him raping and abusing his wife  and the cruel and thoughtless way he treated other women throughout his life had nothing to do with fire (the dragon analogy... Maybe?  My guess is he always wants to do that, but he has .  He was a prick.  If you don't want to call that "cruelty" I guess that's your perogative.

Im not sure there's good evidence that Aerys had symptoms of schizophrenia.  His paranoia is within the parameters of someone who went through something he did (especially because people were against him ultimately - due to his behavior).  i think Aerys was like several other Targs, a sadistic psychopath with too much power.  Early on, he was able to act "pro-socially".  Later on he stopped caring about what other people thought.  He derived sexual pleasure from fire and from burning people. That's a specific kind of sexual sadism and doesn't have anything to do with schizophrenia AFAIK.  If someone has that kind of sexual interest and they are a psychopath with absolute power and no longer any desire to appear normal, then yes, some people might get burned alive. 

btw I agree with the sentiment that  we should somewhat pity someone with a mental disorder that does evil things more than if they were completely sane and did the same thing.  It applies equally to psychopaths and schizophrenics. But neither should be allowed obviously to have the power to harm others. 

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

This is mostly consistent with my view of him.  "Capricious royal prick" also describes Viserys and Aerion pretty well.  Also as you say, his ideas were pretty ridiculously useless, ultimately.  .  

And yeah him raping and abusing his wife  and the cruel and thoughtless way he treated other women throughout his life had nothing to do with fire (the dragon analogy... Maybe?  My guess is he always wants to do that, but he has .  He was a prick.  If you don't want to call that "cruelty" I guess that's your perogative.

Im not sure there's good evidence that Aerys had symptoms of schizophrenia.  His paranoia is within the parameters of someone who went through something he did.  i think Aerys was like several other Targs, a sadistic psychopath with too much power.  Early on, he was able to act "pro-socially".  Later on he stopped caring about what other people thought.  He derived sexual pleasure from fire and from burning people. That's a specific kind of sexual sadism and doesn't have anything to do with schizophrenia AFAIK.  If someone has that kind of sexual interest and they are a psychopath with absolute power and no longer any desire to appear normal, then yes, some people might get burned alive. 

btw I agree with the sentiment that  we should somewhat pity someone with a mental disorder that does evil things more than if they were completely sane and did the same thing.  It applies equally to psychopaths and schizophrenics. But neither should be allowed obviously to have the power to harm others. 

The whole back and forth between sane episodes and those 'mad lapses' is pretty consistent with the episodes of one of the better documented mad kings from Germany. For instance, check the story of Ludwig II's younger brother King Otto of Bavaria (who never ruled because he was already considered insane by the time his brother died): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Bavaria

Some Hapsburg emperors during the 19th century had similar symptoms. I'm especially talking about the paranoia and the loss of hygiene parts.

The parallels to Aerys become especially striking if you compare this stuff to Yandel's description of Aerys' behavior during the tourney of Harrenhal. A man switching between mad laughter, weeping, and rage for no apparent reason is neither a sane nor a healthy man, regardless what he does during his more sane/seemingly lucid episodes (his brain would still be afflicted by the overall sickness just as a demented person is still demented despite the fact that she suddenly remembers something or recognizes somebody she had previously forgotten).

Whether Aerys ever heard voices or suffered from hallucinations isn't clear yet. I'd not rule it out, though, especially not since his illness may actually have a magical quality to it. Dany is only not considered to be a madwoman because her dreams, visions, and hallucinations culminated in a working spell. But who is to say that the same 'innate magic/destiny/whatever' that called out to Dany didn't also call out to Aerys and Aerion, and some of the other Targaryens? If the Targaryens truly have actual dragon blood in their veins, then the idea that they could transform themselves physically into real dragons isn't completely impossible.

Sure, Aerys' princely upbringing and early rise to royal power would also have had a tremendous effect on his personality and character. But one should keep in mind that he actually suffered from a physical sickness, too. When I talked about 'cruelty' I specifically meant harsh and cruel judgments, burning people alive, and stuff like that. In Aerys' case this seemed to have been solely an affect of his declining mental health, not something that was part of the sane and healthy he seems to have been as a child and a youth.

Kings using other people as tools for their pleasure is a common thing - both in this series as well as in real life. Aerys certainly resembled Aegon the Unworthy somewhat in the mistress department, but it doesn't seem as anyone criticized or scolded him for that (not even Yandel does, actually, he just tells about it). Apparently the feelings of women do not much concern the men of Westeros, especially not those who become royal whores (for whatever reason).

But who knows? Perhaps a completely healthy Aerys wouldn't have been such a prick towards women and Tywin later on? We don't know that, we can't know it. Aerys' changeability in his youth - the fascination for great projects he abandons shortly thereafter as well as his many affairs - could actually be an early symptom of his mental disorder. If that was the case, then a healthy Aerys would have been a completely different person.

A completely sane Aerys wouldn't have become Aerys the Wise, of course, because he was apparently also not the sharpest knife in the box, but he would have been a decent enough monarch, most likely more fondly remembered than Aerys I (who was bookish recluse) and Maekar I (who was not very likable/approachable), and Jaehaerys II (who was a sickly and disfigured man).

And then there is Duskendale. I'm convinced that Aerys' madness would have taken a completely different turn if there had been no Duskendale. It may not have manifested as (strongly) as mad paranoia, nor might there have been such a strong/prevalent strain of cruelty against the evil traitors he subsequently saw everywhere. Yes, he had some mad lapses involving torture and executions prior to Duskendale, but they were seldom compared to what he did later, and always connected to a particular real world issue he saw as tragedy or crime (the deaths of his many young children).

[A spoon of knife and fork]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

I never said Aerys was sane.  I said he was a psychopath.  Psychopaths are unable to feel empathy which means that they have a mental disorder since people generally feel empathy.  Maybe the issue here is something about the definition of sane?  

I'm also still not seeing how anything you're saying is inconsistent with my proposal about Aerys which is :

1) he's an entitled jerk with too much power and sadistic/psychopathic tendencies and has always been that way, much along the lines of Aerion, Viserys, Joffery, etc. 

2) His behavior got worse after Duskendale because he became more paranoid and took less trouble to appear normal.

I actually just read the wiki on Prince/King Otto, that's interesting.  What intrigues me is that it is unclear there whether Otto (or his older brother) were insane at all.  Like in this case it depends on who you ask.  To me, Aerys is "mad" in the same way that Viserys or Aerion were. They are megalomaniacal.  They are uncaring and lack empathy.  They are fully capable of understanding right and wrong, they just don't have the emotional controls normal humans have which prevent them from hurting others - they lack empathy.  They can act well when it suits them - they know how to do it.  But if it doesn't suit them for whatever reason, they'll ignore it.  

I also think that Tywin was a sadist and psychopath, by the way.  He was just extremely good at hiding it and only expressing it when it was politcally correct to do so.  He could pull this off, due to his high intelligence.  Aerys (and Viserys and Joffery) was a bit of an idiot so wasn't as good at it.

This is also why I think there's no way Dany will be "mad".  She has none of the tendencies these characters showed from a young age - her thoughtful concern for others is much more in line with other Targaryens.  

[ravenous reader]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

A completely sane Aerys wouldn't have become Aerys the Wise, of course, because he was apparently also not the sharpest knife in the box

 

1 hour ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

I also think that Tywin was a sadist and psychopath, by the way.  He was just extremely good at hiding it and only expressing it when it was politcally correct to do so.  He could pull this off, due to his high intelligence.  Aerys (and Viserys and Joffery) was a bit of an idiot so wasn't as good at it.

What is the evidence for the impression that Aerys was not that intelligent (even pre-mental deterioration)?

If that's true, I find it amazing that people still believe that Aerys is more likely than Tywin to be Tyrion's biological father. Intelligence has a high genetic heritability. And I just don't buy that Tyrion's higher-than-average intelligence came through the nondescript Joanna's line alone-- or, alternatively, as expressed by the 'nurture-trumps-nature' crowd, soley through a strong desire to emulate Tywin, in order to compensate for his dwarfism. Cersei spent a lifetime trying to emulate Tywin (in order to challenge her gender-assigned role in society)-- and despite all her efforts, that didn't seem to have increased her IQ, emotional or other!

[UnmaskedLurker]

35 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

 

What is the evidence for the impression that Aerys was not that intelligent (even pre-mental deterioration)?

If that's true, I find it amazing that people still believe that Aerys is more likely than Tywin to be Tyrion's biological father. Intelligence has a high genetic heritability. And I just don't buy that Tyrion's higher-than-average intelligence came through the nondescript Joanna's line alone-- or, alternatively, as expressed by the 'nurture-trumps-nature' crowd, soley through a strong desire to emulate Tywin, in order to compensate for his dwarfism. Cersei spent a lifetime trying to emulate Tywin (in order to challenge her gender-assigned role in society)-- and despite all her efforts, that didn't seem to have increased her IQ, emotional or other!

So if IQ is so genetically driven, why is Cersei so dumb? She has Tywin as a father and so should be smart. And Joanna is Tywin's first cousin, so a large portion of their ancestors are the same people.

Rhaegar is described as quite intelligent, and he certainly has Aerys as a father. So Aerys clearly is capable of giving birth to a very intelligent person.

Of all the evidence regarding whether Tywin or Aerys is Tyrion's father, I don't see how Tyrion's intelligence is a particularly strong piece of evidence one way or the other.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

40 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

 

What is the evidence for the impression that Aerys was not that intelligent (even pre-mental deterioration)?

If that's true, I find it amazing that people still believe that Aerys is more likely than Tywin to be Tyrion's biological father. Intelligence has a high genetic heritability. And I just don't buy that Tyrion's higher-than-average intelligence came through the nondescript Joanna's line alone-- or, alternatively, as expressed by the 'nurture-trumps-nature' crowd, soley through a strong desire to emulate Tywin, in order to compensate for his dwarfism. Cersei spent a lifetime trying to emulate Tywin (in order to challenge her gender-assigned role in society)-- and despite all her efforts, that didn't seem to have increased her IQ, emotional or other!

I always got the impression that Tyrion's smarts were due to his time spent reading, and over compensation for his lack of physical strength he had to be smart.

It was very much a nurture type trait, he was shunned so he spent all of his time with his nose in a book, and then used that to out smart evevryone he could.

[ravenous reader]

14 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

So if IQ is so genetically driven, why is Cersei so dumb? She has Tywin as a father and so should be smart. And Joanna is Tywin's first cousin, so a large portion of their ancestors are the same people.

Rhaegar is described as quite intelligent, and he certainly has Aerys as a father. So Aerys clearly is capable of giving birth to a very intelligent person.

Of all the evidence regarding whether Tywin or Aerys is Tyrion's father, I don't see how Tyrion's intelligence is a particularly strong piece of evidence one way or the other.

Good arguments.

I guess you've revealed my latent prejudice: I don't believe Tywin is Cersei's father..!

First cousins only share 12.5% genetically. And Aerys' endowment (if he really had a low IQ pre-mental deterioration) should have dumbed things down.

I have no answer to your argument regarding Rhaegar. But, as you say, he was 'quite' intelligent (like Jon perhaps...?) Tyrion and Tywin are described as super-intelligent. That degree has always struck me as significant.

When it comes to arguments about paternity and secret lineages, we are prepared to weight the significance of physical characteristics like hair and eye color, but strangely not intelligence or temperament. Why not?

[UnmaskedLurker]

1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

Good arguments.

I guess you've revealed my latent prejudice: I don't believe Tywin is Cersei's father..!

First cousins only share 12.5% genetically. And Aerys' endowment (if he really had a low IQ pre-mental deterioration) should have dumbed things down.

I have no answer to your argument regarding Rhaegar. But, as you say, he was 'quite' intelligent (like Jon perhaps...?) Tyrion and Tywin are described as super-intelligent. That degree has always struck me as significant.

When it comes to arguments about paternity and secret lineages, we are prepared to weight the significance of physical characteristics like hair and eye color, but strangely not intelligence or temperament. Why not?

Largely because that is how GRRM is writing this story. The evidence regarding the Baratheon "children" were their lack of dark hair. Joffrey and Tommen are not described as more like Jaime than Robert in temperament, personality or intelligence. Jon seems to have a temperament at least as much like Ned as like Rhaegar. 

And Rhaegar is described to be just as intelligent as Tywin or Tyrion. He was quite bookish -- and described as excelling at everything he tried. GRRM simply does not seem to be following your preferred path of making biological children taken after their biological parents so closely in terms of temperament or intelligence. 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

 

What is the evidence for the impression that Aerys was not that intelligent (even pre-mental deterioration)?

If that's true, I find it amazing that people still believe that Aerys is more likely than Tywin to be Tyrion's biological father. Intelligence has a high genetic heritability. And I just don't buy that Tyrion's higher-than-average intelligence came through the nondescript Joanna's line alone-- or, alternatively, as expressed by the 'nurture-trumps-nature' crowd, soley through a strong desire to emulate Tywin, in order to compensate for his dwarfism. Cersei spent a lifetime trying to emulate Tywin (in order to challenge her gender-assigned role in society)-- and despite all her efforts, that didn't seem to have increased her IQ, emotional or other!

Well in addition to what the others have said about in-universe stuff, I believe the data about genetic heritability of intelligence is problematic.

even twin studies (the best of the best) make some assumptions which X are almost certainly false.

we also know for a fact that a given individual can improve their score on an IQ test through practice. 

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

I never said Aerys was sane.  I said he was a psychopath.  Psychopaths are unable to feel empathy which means that they have a mental disorder since people generally feel empathy.  Maybe the issue here is something about the definition of sane?  

I'm also still not seeing how anything you're saying is inconsistent with my proposal about Aerys which is :

1) he's an entitled jerk with too much power and sadistic/psychopathic tendencies and has always been that way, much along the lines of Aerion, Viserys, Joffery, etc. 

2) His behavior got worse after Duskendale because he became more paranoid and took less trouble to appear normal.

I actually just read the wiki on Prince/King Otto, that's interesting.  What intrigues me is that it is unclear there whether Otto (or his older brother) were insane at all.  Like in this case it depends on who you ask.  To me, Aerys is "mad" in the same way that Viserys or Aerion were. They are megalomaniacal.  They are uncaring and lack empathy.  They are fully capable of understanding right and wrong, they just don't have the emotional controls normal humans have which prevent them from hurting others - they lack empathy.  They can act well when it suits them - they know how to do it.  But if it doesn't suit them for whatever reason, they'll ignore it.  

I also think that Tywin was a sadist and psychopath, by the way.  He was just extremely good at hiding it and only expressing it when it was politcally correct to do so.  He could pull this off, due to his high intelligence.  Aerys (and Viserys and Joffery) was a bit of an idiot so wasn't as good at it.

This is also why I think there's no way Dany will be "mad".  She has none of the tendencies these characters showed from a young age - her thoughtful concern for others is much more in line with other Targaryens.  

Hm. Aerys seems to have formed too many lasting relationships to be a full-blown psychopath - one of the main criteria in the relationship department of the psychopath checklist involves many short-lived marriage-like relationships. For Aerys this isn't really the case. His affairs weren't people he lived with, but simply romantic/sexual conquests during a time when he sexually very active.

Now, perhaps that's not a nice thing to do with/to young women - on the other hand, he was a prince and then a king, with real power. Such people have an amount of power that inevitably makes you believe you are special because people believe you are special/a celebrity. That is very strange world and can bring out the worst in people even if they are actually quite nice. Was Aerys treating his lovers badly? We don't know, actually, aside from the one he executed, of course. Did he force women into relationships with him (like Aegon the Unworthy did with Merry Meg) or were all of his mistresses willing participants in this game of getting royal favors this way? We don't know.

But more importantly, Aerys had sort of stable and lasting friendships involving men (Tywin and Steffon, and apparently also good and long-standing working relationships with many of his courtiers). That is not the sign of a real psychopath. A real psychopath would have sucked Tywin dry and thrown him away as soon as he was done with him - which would have been much earlier than the Aerys we know was, nor would a real psychopath had Tywin leave the way he did. He would have accused him of treachery and burned him alive like he later burned Lord Rickard.

Instead, the relationship between Tywin and Aerys is much more like a love-hate-relationship, essentially a marriage gone bad, not a relationship were one person involved doesn't have any feelings for the other person at all. I actually imagine young Tywin and Aerys as being as close as young Robert and Ned. And just as they are pretty apart fifteen years later, Tywin and Aerys drifted apart - but I still things both had unresolved with each other until the very end and there was a part deep within either man who thought of the other as his friend.

And Viserys certainly doesn't qualify as a sadist or psychopath, either. He has just severe problems with himself, his lot in life, and his relationship with his sister. Viserys would have been a great king, and he wasn't a sympathetic guy, but he wasn't a cruel person or madman, either. He just couldn't deal with the situation he was in, he had no empathy for Dany, and losing her to Drogo was a huge issue for him he never properly addressed or admitted to anyone. There were chances for to reconcile with his sister, but neither she or he understood how it could have worked.

Joffrey is even a more interesting case. Is he truly evil/sadistic, or just a 12/13-year-old bully who can command armies? That is actually difficult to determine.

I'd agree that it is unlikely that Dany becomes mad in a cruel/sadistic way (like Maegor the Cruel, for instance) but insofar as her father's cruelty was caused by his mental illness she could suffer the same or a similar fate. When I'm talking madness I did not mean the cruel acts but the mental issues leading to them - those suggests that Maegor was a psychopath with sadistic tendencies, Daemon a sadist prone to mood swings, Aerion possibly another type of sadistic nutcase (at least late in life). If Dany also ends hearing voices, seeing things that aren't there, or begins to suffer lapses where she behaves strangely out of character, she could become a second Aerys, too.

I don't think this is very likely, of course, but it is a fate any Targaryen could suffer if their mad tendencies are essentially a genetically transferred disease, possibly being caused by their 'dragon genes'. I think having a dragon can perhaps help deal with those issues because I think the mad tendencies are actual a result of 'the dragon blood' part in a Targaryen trying to bond with a dragon which isn't there. If that need is fulfilled, there won't be any need to develop delusions an unnatural/unhealthy obsession/fascination with fire and stuff. Dany should be whole now, with Drogon as her dragon.

As to Aerys not being a very smart guy:

That's based on what Yandel says about him, mostly, but we know that not all Targaryens are very exceptional in mind and body - some are. And many traits skip a generation or two. Aerys doesn't have to be as smart as Rhaegar just as Aerys and Jaehaerys II don't have to be as great warriors as Rhaegar, Aegon V, Maekar, or Baelor Breakspear.