New Episode of Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire Podcast: The Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai

[LmL]

 

You can find the text of the essay on my wordpress page, and the audio production on my podcast page. 

 

The legend of Azor Ahai says that he cracked the moon when he forged Lightbringer. Does this make Azor Ahai "the bad guy?" He stabbed his wife too, and to work blood magic. Is blood magic heroic, or abomination?

And what's with this Bloodstone Emperor guy, who worshiped a black meteor during the Long Night? Is there a link between this black meteor, the meteors of the moon explosion, and the greasy black stone? And what does this tell us about the nature of Lightbringer?

Many months ago, when I first started yammering about comets and exploding moons, a mighty man known as Durran Durrandon said to me, "LmL, you know, you ought to take a look at the mythical associations of bloodstone (heliotrope), seems like some of this might have something to do with the Long Night / moon explosion stuff."  So, uh, yeah, it turns out Durran was on to something. George did not choose the name "Bloodstone Emperor" for the dude who supposedly caused the Long Night because it sounded cool... oh no. Bloodstone (heliotrope) has many mythical properties according to ancient man, and they fit very well into the tapestry of Long Night symbols and events which I am attempting to piece together.  From what I can determine, every single association of heliotrope / bloodstone tells us something about the Long Night, Azor Ahai, and Lightbringer.  In this essay I am comparing these mythical properties of bloodstone to the folklore and legends of the story to show how it all fits together, and in the process, I believe we can learn much about the magical flaming sword and the legendary "hero" who wielded it.

If you've read a previous essay of mine having to do with these subjects, you'll be happy to know that this is about 75% new material.  As I turn my essays into podcasts, I am essentially reworking them from the ground up, taking into account new insights and (hopefully) increased clarity of vision. 

If you've never read anything of mine, you should probably check out episode one ( text | podcast ) so you know what I am talking about... although it's up to you. It's your world, dawg.  

Some topics and ideas covered in this one:

• What is the nature of Lightbringer?
• What was Lightbringer made out of?
• the dual nature of the Lightbringer myth - killing and procreation, life and death, the sword and the torch
• the Bloodstone Emperor = Azor Ahai, the Amethyst Empress = Nissa Nissa
• stealing the fire of the gods: the monomyth of ASOIAF
• the solar king archetype (Azor Ahai): Jon Snow, Daenerys, Stannis, Beric, Aegon the Conqueror, Rhaegar, Bloodraven
• the moon maiden archetype (Nissa Nissa): Lyanna, Sansa, Ashara Dayne
• the celestial interpretation of the Tower of Joy scene
• what is the greasy black stone?
• Jon's black ice armor / burning red sword dream, explained
• the burning, blackened blood of fire-transformed beings
• Dawn and Lightbringer
• symbolic and literal meanings of "Blackfyre" and "shadow fire"
• the smoking tower and great stone beast vision, explained
• my best scratchy "undead Lord Beric" voice

Finally, here are links to Durran Durrandon's amazing essays:

• The Amethyst Empress Reborn  
• The Long Night and the Great Summer 
• Melisandre and the Night’s Queen 
• Jon and Beric: Fire Consumes. Cold Preserves

Thanks to everyone who has been a part of the process along the way!  If you've contributed to the conversations around my essays, then please feel proud of this podcast as a work which you helped achieve. Because you did, and it wouldn't exist without you.

(me ->)      (<- you)

 

[Bluetiger]

 

You can find the text of the essay on my wordpress page, and the audio production on my podcast page. 

 

The legend of Azor Ahai says that he cracked the moon when he forged Lightbringer. Does this make Azor Ahai "the bad guy?" He stabbed his wife too, and to work blood magic. Is blood magic heroic, or abomination?

And what's with this Bloodstone Emperor guy, who worshiped a black meteor during the Long Night? Is there a link between this black meteor, the meteors of the moon explosion, and the greasy black stone? And what does this tell us about the nature of Lightbringer?

Many months ago, when I first started yammering about comets and exploding moons, a mighty man known as Durran Durrandon said to me, "LmL, you know, you ought to take a look at the mythical associations of bloodstone (heliotrope), seems like some of this might have something to do with the Long Night / moon explosion stuff."  So, uh, yeah, it turns out Durran was on to something. George did not choose the name "Bloodstone Emperor" for the dude who supposedly caused the Long Night because it sounded cool... oh no. Bloodstone (heliotrope) has many mythical properties according to ancient man, and they fit very well into the tapestry of Long Night symbols and events which I am attempting to piece together.  From what I can determine, every single association of heliotrope / bloodstone tells us something about the Long Night, Azor Ahai, and Lightbringer.  In this essay I am comparing these mythical properties of bloodstone to the folklore and legends of the story to show how it all fits together, and in the process, I believe we can learn much about the magical flaming sword and the legendary "hero" who wielded it.

If you've read a previous essay of mine having to do with these subjects, you'll be happy to know that this is about 75% new material.  As I turn my essays into podcasts, I am essentially reworking them from the ground up, taking into account new insights and (hopefully) increased clarity of vision. 

If you've never read anything of mine, you should probably check out to episode one ( text | podcast ) so you know what I am talking about in this one.  

Some topics and ideas covered in this one:

• What is the nature of Lightbringer?
• What was Lightbringer made out of?
• the dual nature of the Lightbringer myth - killing and procreation, life and death, the sword and the torch
• the Bloodstone Emperor = Azor Ahai, the Amethyst Empress = Nissa Nissa
• stealing the fire of the gods: the monomyth of ASOIAF
• the solar king archetype (Azor Ahai): Jon Snow, Daenerys, Stannis, Beric, Aegon the Conqueror, Rhaegar, Bloodraven
• the moon maiden archetype (Nissa Nissa): Lyanna, Sansa, Ashara Dayne
• what is the greasy black stone?
• Jon's black ice armor / burning red sword dream, explained
• the burning, blackened blood of fire-transformed beings
• Dawn and Lightbringer
• symbolic and literal meanings of "Blackfyre" and "shadow fire"
• the smoking tower and great stone beast vision, explained
• my best scratchy "undead Lord Beric" voice

Finally, here are links to Durran Durrandon's amazing essays:

• The Amethyst Empress Reborn  
• The Long Night and the Great Summer 
• Melisandre and the Night’s Queen 
• Jon and Beric: Fire Consumes. Cold Preserves

Thanks to everyone who has been a part of the process along the way!  If you've contributed to the conversations around my essays, then please feel proud of this podcast as a work which you helped achieve. Because you did, and it wouldn't exist without you.

(me ->)      (

 

Another awesome episode Congrats LmL

[LmL]

Another awesome episode Congrats LmL

Thanks Blue Tiger, look forward to hearing your feedback!

[shmewdog]

LmL you are my favorite ASOIAF theorist.  In my mind everything you say is gospel.  Keep up the good work.

[Durran Durrandon]

Well, it is  about time. Just kidding, it looks like you'll have plenty of time to get these out before Winds of Winter comes out. I'm downloading this right now. I'll try to give it a listen as my children permit tomorrow. If is half as good as the last one,  I'm sure I'll love it, and thanks for the shout out.

[LmL]

LmL you are my favorite ASOIAF theorist.  In my mind everything you say is gospel.  Keep up the good work.

If it's a gospel I'm preaching, it must be one of the Nag Hammadi texts. Gospel of Judas, Book of Enoch, Gospel of Lucifer. Definitely talking about the Apocyrpha here. 

Thanks very much for the kind words, glad you're enjoying what I have to offer. Let me know what you think of the darkness contained therein.

[Sly Wren]

If it's a gospel I'm preaching, it must be one of the Nag Hammadi texts. Gospel of Judas, Book of Enoch, Gospel of Lucifer. Definitely talking about the Apocyrpha here. 

Or, could be an alternative gospel interpretation: Like The Gospel According to Star Wars, or Star Wars Jesus. Instead, "The Genesis of Ice and Fire." "The Book of Azor." 

I'd better stop . . . .

Back on point: CONGRATS!!! Well done!!!

We need pom-poms. . . . 

[LmL]

Or, could be an alternative gospel interpretation: Like The Gospel According to Star Wars, or Star Wars Jesus. Instead, "The Genesis of Ice and Fire." "The Book of Azor." 

I'd better stop . . . .

Back on point: CONGRATS!!! Well done!!!

We need pom-poms. . . . 

Thanks Sly Wren, that means a lot coming from you!  The "Bloodstone Compendium" title was made with this thinking in mind... Jade Compendium, Bloodstone Compendium. I'm like an old, slighty-crazy scholar from Qarth running around trying to tell anyone who will listen that Azor Ahai broke the moon who wrote a book of dubious merit. Heh. I'm Urrathon Nightwalker's more lucid younger brother (sorry about him, he was dropped on his head when he was young). 

I've actually written the next episode already, which is a continuation of this one about the various bloodstone ideas. I think I saved some of the best stuff for that one, including a breakdown of Sansa's "first flowering" nightmare experience in the Red Keep, which is a super-detailed celestial metaphor and explains the concept of "moon blood" which I think Mr. Martin is having a lot of twisted fun with. I'm all going to dissect the Oberyn vs the Mountain duel, which is really fantastic because it has almost every bloodstone idea in effect. Lastly, the heliotropium as a flower section has really rounded into form, which was something I was only sniffing at when I wrote the first version of the Bloodstone essay a long time ago. It's a really cool metaphor and I'm looking forward to laying it out.

Also, the House Dayne Part 2 History of Westeros podcast should be out later this month, and that's going to be a blast. 

Here's Part One of their House Dayne coverage, where I do the voices for Darkstar and a couple others. I'll be on camera and whatnot in the second part.

[LmL]

Well, it is  about time. Just kidding, it looks like you'll have plenty of time to get these out before Winds of Winter comes out. I'm downloading this right now. I'll try to give it a listen as my children permit tomorrow. If is half as good as the last one,  I'm sure I'll love it, and thanks for the shout out.

Yeah... after I was at first disappointed as a fan to hear the news of TWOW... for "LmL the blogger" I suppose it's a good thing. I think as a fan first, though, of course. 

As for the props, you're well deserving, and you're quite welcome. I mentioned you in the cast too. Can't wait to hear your reaction. I did a bit of voice acting on this one too... I can do a mean "strangled, reanimated guy" voice... just had to load the bong long enough to make it happen bro! Whew!

[Falcon2908]

Aww yiss

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

This is very good. I am about half way through and I really like it. 

[Equilibrium]

Nice to see this is going well. Congratulations.

I see you revised the essays (again :D), is there something new and exciting or just re-polishing and additional evidence. I will have to read it all again to remind myself about finer points and I didn't plan to do it now, but if something epochal is discovered I would like heads up so I can read it immediately.

 

 

 

[LmL]

Nice to see this is going well. Congratulations.

I see you revised the essays (again :D), is there something new and exciting or just re-polishing and additional evidence. I will have to read it all again to remind myself about finer points and I didn't plan to do it now, but if something epochal is discovered I would like heads up so I can read it immediately.

 

 

 

It's about 75% new material, honestly. I have new evidence but also new ideas all together. I think you'll have to read it. Or listen, if you prefer. Don't you want to hear me give the brotherhood without banners speech in my best "strangled and ressurected guy" voice?  I'm telling you... 

Theres some specultion about Dawn as it relates to LB that is like to get your feedback on, and I'm also taking a look at the idea of a "monomyth" of ASOIAF, which I think you'll enjoy. Also the idea of the LB meteors as being poison is a totally new concept.

There should be plenty to hold you attention.... but no rush, brother. Whenever you have your shit taken care of, hit it up. 

[White Ravens]

Congratulation on creating another episode for your podcast.  Your efforts are inspiring.  I took part in some of your early discussions about astronomy here on the forum, which is a subject that interests me quite a bit.  I will listen to them soon.  In the mean time I have a small nitpick:  When a meteor falls to the earth it then called a meteorite.  The Bloodstone Emperor worshiped a black stone that fell from the sky so it would be a meteorite. 

Sorry to be so pedantic. 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

I hardly come on here anymore because I'm bitter about three of my threads getting lost in the server change, but I am making an exception to say great job on the podcast!

Very high production quality, as per the last one, and also as per the last one great job cleaning up/clarifying the material for audio.

And congrats on your debut on History of Westeros!

 

A little while ago I was reading about the potential effects of Earth gaining or losing a moon, and in addition to seasons being affected (altered gravitational pull on Earth's axis = different seasons, either no seasons or more dramatic seasons) it also seems likely that tides would be vastly effected. That made me think of squisher/Deep Ones lore, and the many clues on Planetos that water level may have been different. And I wondered, was water level different or were *tides* different? Combined force of 2 moons could make for insane tides, meaning cities need to be farther inland and ocean based creatures would have more opportunities than with regular tides. If they built stuff at high tide, it would simply be always above the water now with just 1 moon.

You may well have already thought of this, but I thought I'd mention it.

I'm on board with 2 moons, just not sure if one was destroyed just before Long Night or earlier in prehistory.

[LmL]

I hardly come on here anymore because I'm bitter about three of my threads getting lost in the server change, but I am making an exception to say great job on the podcast!

Very high production quality, as per the last one, and also as per the last one great job cleaning up/clarifying the material for audio.

And congrats on your debut on History of Westeros!

 

A little while ago I was reading about the potential effects of Earth gaining or losing a moon, and in addition to seasons being affected (altered gravitational pull on Earth's axis = different seasons, either no seasons or more dramatic seasons) it also seems likely that tides would be vastly effected. That made me think of squisher/Deep Ones lore, and the many clues on Planetos that water level may have been different. And I wondered, was water level different or were *tides* different? Combined force of 2 moons could make for insane tides, meaning cities need to be farther inland and ocean based creatures would have more opportunities than with regular tides. If they built stuff at high tide, it would simply be always above the water now with just 1 moon.

You may well have already thought of this, but I thought I'd mention it.

I'm on board with 2 moons, just not sure if one was destroyed just before Long Night or earlier in prehistory.

Thanks Beth!! Any one element is up for debate, certainly - did the moon crack and drift off, turning invisible and black, or was it totally destroyed? It's even possible there was only one moon, which was decimated and then froze over to become the "ice moon." I don't think so, but we're decoding symbolism and metaphor so it's all quite subjective. I'm glad other people (such as yourself) are approaching the general idea of "mythical astronomy" from different angles and with different conclusions about various elements. That can only be good for the overall interpretation of George's in world mythos.  I especially enjoy your writing so it's always fun to see what you're cooking up. I also added a link to your blog on my page, which was actually long overdue. Congrats on all the fine work.

As for the tides, I absolutely think Martin is using that line of symbolism in relation to the moon drowning part of the LN disaster sequence. I think the "black and bloody tide" that Mel sees in ADWD is related to Oathkeeper's "waves of night and blood," and Drogon's egg as "black as a midnight sea" as well Jon's red "streaks of fire turning to rivers of black ice" scene that I talked about in the podcast. I think on a basic level, the red steals of fire triggered black tides, with those tides sometimes being symbolized by waves of blood, seas of blood, a bed of moon blood, etc etc. Going to talk a lot about moon blood in Part 2 of this essay / pod, and then I have another to rework which is all about the moon tides and floods. 

I hadn't considered the idea of wacky tides with two moons. The Ironborn are symbolized as a ride or iron tide a few times, as you know, so of course these tides could refer to Deep Ones or whatever was remembered as Deep Ones. Many legends of merlings and whatnot raiding from the sea, so I think they are a real phenomena, but they are so weird and far out that I haven't focused on them much yet. But since we have actual fish-like people to go along with all the legends, I think it's likely they do exist, some kind of acquatic humanoid that is. 

Do you think the pearl palanquin of te first God Emp might be a pale meteorite? The one which the pale fire swords of the pre-Bloodstone GEotD emperors? As for ascending to the stars, that's a common idea about dead kings from ancient cultures, notably Egypt. The Dothraki hold a similar belief, so it's hard to know if this part of the GEotD refers to anything physical ascending to heaven or just burning the dead emperors and watching the smoke ascend to heaven or whatever. Perhaps there's astral travel involved or something more magical. I'm not really sure. 

 

[LmL]

This is very good. I am about half way through and I really like it. 

Aww yiss

Thanks guys! Can't wait to get your reactions.   It's long so take your time, just come back when you're finished and let me know what you think. 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Do you think the pearl palanquin of te first God Emp might be a pale meteorite? The one which the pale fire swords of the pre-Bloodstone GEotD emperors? As for ascending to the stars, that's a common idea about dead kings from ancient cultures, notably Egypt. The Dothraki hold a similar belief, so it's hard to know if this part of the GEotD refers to anything physical ascending to heaven or just burning the dead emperors and watching the smoke ascend to heaven or whatever. Perhaps there's astral travel involved or something more magical. I'm not really sure. 

--Yeah, I basically do. That's why I put a picture of milk-glass up on my blog post--to show how much it looks like pearl. So I think the palanquin was not the meteorite per se, but whatever magical forging created Dawn (pale as milk-glass) was also used to make the palanquin (which looked like a pearl). Perhaps the magic in the palanquin was more diffuse and had a shorter half-life than Dawn, thus it was discarded sooner? Not sure. Or it was the same stuff but not magical for some reason...don't know, but feel like there is a connection between the materials. Also not sure if the difference between Dawn and LB is a matter of materials or method--like, are there red white and blue meteorites? Was one made from moon bits and another from some other kind of space rock? Or were they just forged differently?

This is getting off on a tangent, but I'm also thinking that original Dawn, the sword of the eponymous empire, was split in two, one smaller sword and one larger. I think Blackyre and Dark Sister were made in imitation of this, and of course it's mirrored in the fate of Ned's Ice. One sword was Original Ice/Current Dawn, the other became Lightbringer and is currently MIA.

But backing up any of that is so highly speculative I kind of just want to wait for Winds and see if it gives us more GEotD insight. Holding out a lot of hope for Dany's run in with the Dosh Khaleen!

[LmL]

--Yeah, I basically do. That's why I put a picture of milk-glass up on my blog post--to show how much it looks like pearl. So I think the palanquin was not the meteorite per se, but whatever magical forging created Dawn (pale as milk-glass) was also used to make the palanquin (which looked like a pearl). Perhaps the magic in the palanquin was more diffuse and had a shorter half-life than Dawn, thus it was discarded sooner? Not sure. Or it was the same stuff but not magical for some reason...don't know, but feel like there is a connection between the materials. Also not sure if the difference between Dawn and LB is a matter of materials or method--like, are there red white and blue meteorites? Was one made from moon bits and another from some other kind of space rock? Or were they just forged differently?

This is getting off on a tangent, but I'm also thinking that original Dawn, the sword of the eponymous empire, was split in two, one smaller sword and one larger. I think Blackyre and Dark Sister were made in imitation of this, and of course it's mirrored in the fate of Ned's Ice. One sword was Original Ice/Current Dawn, the other became Lightbringer and is currently MIA.

But backing up any of that is so highly speculative I kind of just want to wait for Winds and see if it gives us more GEotD insight. Holding out a lot of hope for Dany's run in with the Dosh Khaleen!

Those are really interesting ideas! I do think we will be seeing some sword magic in the next two books, it will be exciting to see what swords light on fire with what flame and if any missintones pop up. 

The milkglass - pearl connection might have merit, certainly. I think about the ghost grass near Asshai, glowing in the dark with the spirits of the dead, like a field of tombstones to the GEotD. They are huge blades of milkglass, like a field of Dawn swords. And if I am right that Asshai was the capital of the GEotD, then I think we have reason to see Dawn as aligned with the pre-BSE emperors and the lost life and technology of the GEotD. Thus strengthening the idea of the pearl's association with Dawn and the pale meteorite. 

We are going to talk about some of this on the HoW podcast, which should be fun.

[LmL]

Congratulation on creating another episode for your podcast.  Your efforts are inspiring.  I took part in some of your early discussions about astronomy here on the forum, which is a subject that interests me quite a bit.  I will listen to them soon.  In the mean time I have a small nitpick:  When a meteor falls to the earth it then called a meteorite.  The Bloodstone Emperor worshiped a black stone that fell from the sky so it would be a meteorite. 

Sorry to be so pedantic. 

Sorry raven brother, I responded to this earlier and the interwebs ate it. Yes, you were definitely one of the ones I was referring to when I said everyone who participated should feel proud of the podcast as they had a part i making it happen.  Great to see you around again, and I look forward to hearing your feedback. And thanks for the clarification; somewhere in the back if my head I knew there was a distinction. No harm in getting the vocabulary correct, my thanks.