Ashara Dayne

[Jon Snow Nothing]

Hello, I'm new here and this is my first topic, sorry if this has been discussed multiple times, but I read the books a long time ago and only now I'm re-reading them.

Along with Rhaegar T. and Lyanna S., there is a character whose "mystery" I think it's quite interesting. Ashara Dayne was beautiful, one of the young companions of Princess Elia at court. She conquered Barristan's heart, but he was too shy to declare for her (and I can't see why he would, since he was a KG and couldn't get married).

So, what do you think happened to her?

1) Who dishonored her at the tourney at Harrenhal?

2) If she got pregnant, did she leave court? But how does Barristan know she had a stillborn daughter? Gossip?

3) Do you think the person who "dishonored" her was the father of her baby? Could it be Brandon Stark?

4) If it was Brandon Stark, do you think maybe the "abduction" of Lyanna, right before Brandon was going to get married to Catelyn, has something to do with it?

5) Arthur Dayne was a KG and one of the few people who could be called Rhaegar's friend. Do you think they would have tried to "repair" the situation?

6) Do you think she might be alive, since her body has never been found?

 

Sorry if it sounds confusing, I just wanted to read what do you guys think of this character. I have a feeling she's more important than we might think.

 

[Good Guy Garlan]

1) Howland Reed, but he didn't dishonor her, it was mutual. 

2) Yes, she left court and went to Starfall and she had a daughter but not a stillborn: Meera

3) I think everyone naturally suspected notorious ladies man Brandon, but it actually was Howland. As they say, the quiet ones are the worst.

4) This is a really interesting idea I haven't seen before

5) Maybe? I don't think he shed a tear when (and if) he heard what Aerys had done to Brandon.

6) If she is alive, she could be living in the Neck with Howland

 

[Raisin' Bran]

Like you I am also very new here and I do believe that these topics have been discussed repeatedly. Though I am not an expert by any means, I My understanding and opinions are such:

1) It could have been either Brandon or Eddard, though I lean toward Brandon as he was the more "confident" of the two and showed that he did not have any reservations about "dishonoring" maidens.

2) More than likely she left court. A stillborn child of a former companion of a princess would generate lots of gossip. While gossip does seem to be a quick way for word to spread.

3) The father also being the one dishonoring her is a short logical step.

4) I do not believe dishonoring Ashara would cause Lyanna to be abducted as payback against Brandon. Based on what the books tell us about Prince RT and Ser AD, that seems too juvenile for them.

5) I am not sure what you mean by "repair". 

6) That is one of the driving factors in her being discussed so much. Body never found must mean that she is still running around somewhere. I have my doubts, but it would seem that if she was truly dead, why is she mentioned so much in the text.

[purple-eyes]

Welcome. 

I think it is almost certain that brandon "dishonored" her and gave her a baby. She is likely willing though. 

What we know is,

1. brandon had wild wolf blood and he is used to taking whatever he wanted about women (canon). 

2. Ashara is not just beautiful, she is one of the most beautiful women in the world. So brandon is likely interested in her. 

3. She turned to a stark, who is not very possible to be our good, shy, quiet and plain looking Ned. 

4. Ned was sort of bitter or jealousy about brandon, ashara can be part of the reason. 

5. Brandon did not have "son" left. 

6. Ashara did leave the court, likely due to pregnancy. 

7. Barri can surely hear rumor about her. Even cersei and cat heard about her. It is a public rumor. 

8. Arthur must be angry if he knew it is brandon. But brandon died so quickly. So Arthur can not do that much. 

9. Arthur helped rhaegar to take lyanna actively. Maybe part of him wanted to avenge for his sister too. Not just simply following rhaegar. 

 

 

 

[purple-eyes]

Crackpot! 

Arthur knew brandon is a wild wolf and hot head from ashara. So he is likely to do something rashly and dangerous. Such as tried to duel with rhaegar. So arthur suggested rhaegar to hide in toj with lyanna in dorne. Arthur must be familiar with that area before he became KG. 

Then rhaegar can not be in red keep to help deal with brandon in a more peaceful way. 

So brandon and Rickard both died. 

This is revenge of house dayne! 

But then lyanna took revenge to arthur too. 

She did not try to do anything to prevent the battle and let Ned kill arthur! She is lover of rhaegar so she should have power over rhaegar's servants! But she did nothing. 

Then Ned revenge again by telling ashara everything then make her suicide! 

[Jon Snow Nothing]

Crackpot! 

Arthur knew brandon is a wild wolf and hot head from ashara. So he is likely to do something rashly and dangerous. Such as tried to duel with rhaegar. So arthur suggested rhaegar to hide in toj with lyanna in dorne. Arthur must be familiar with that area before he became KG. 

Then rhaegar can not be in red keep to help deal with brandon in a more peaceful way. 

So brandon and Rickard both died. 

This is revenge of house dayne! 

But then lyanna took revenge to arthur too. 

She did not try to do anything to prevent the battle and let Ned kill arthur! She is lover of rhaegar so she should have power over rhaegar's servants! But she did nothing. 

Then Ned revenge again by telling ashara everything then make her suicide! 

Hmmm... ok, but what could Lyanna do when everything happened so quickly? Who could predict Aerys to be so cruel?

I never quite understood why Brandon was seeking for Rhaegar (not Lyanna) in KL. If he believed she were abducted, why would Rhaegar bring her there?

There is something so wrong in this whole story. Even the "profecy" crazy Rhaegar doesn't sound very real to me. And that scene where Dany sees him talking to Elia, was this confirmed to be true? Because those visions could never have happened, right? Or might have happened differently. ETA: the vision where Dany sees her brother saying "but the draong has 3 heads" or something like that...

I don't think she'd commit suicide, I think she'd try to disappear from Westeros.

 

[Jon Snow Nothing]

Like you I am also very new here and I do believe that these topics have been discussed repeatedly. Though I am not an expert by any means, I My understanding and opinions are such:

1) It could have been either Brandon or Eddard, though I lean toward Brandon as he was the more "confident" of the two and showed that he did not have any reservations about "dishonoring" maidens.

2) More than likely she left court. A stillborn child of a former companion of a princess would generate lots of gossip. While gossip does seem to be a quick way for word to spread.

3) The father also being the one dishonoring her is a short logical step.

4) I do not believe dishonoring Ashara would cause Lyanna to be abducted as payback against Brandon. Based on what the books tell us about Prince RT and Ser AD, that seems too juvenile for them.

5) I am not sure what you mean by "repair". 

6) That is one of the driving factors in her being discussed so much. Body never found must mean that she is still running around somewhere. I have my doubts, but it would seem that if she was truly dead, why is she mentioned so much in the text.

Sorry, my English is awful   I was trying to say, by repair, something like, try to force Brandon to accept Ashara and the child. I'm quite certain that if her child is alive, Ashara's, it would have been born before Aegon's birth. And maybe the "stillborn" child was only a lie to stop people from gossiping.

[purple-eyes]

Sorry, my English is awful   I was trying to say, by repair, something like, try to force Brandon to accept Ashara and the child. I'm quite certain that if her child is alive, Ashara's, it would have been born before Aegon's birth. And maybe the "stillborn" child was only a lie to stop people from gossiping.

brandon was booked for cat, daughter of house tully. House dayne is a minor house even in dorne. 

I do not think they can do anything to change that and make brandon marry  ashara.

More important, brandon is happy or willing to marry cat. He never wanted to marry ashara. He is an irresponsible man. 

He asked rhaegar for a duel. This is to ask justice for lyanna. It is actually a reasonable request. He knows lyanna must be at control of rhaegar. So he had to deal with rhaegar firstly. 

 

 

 

[Ser Leftwich]

1) Brandon.

2) She did get pregnant, but went to Dragonstone with Elia. Ashara did not leave court because of the pregnancy. Barristan heard gossip from the comings and goings of people back and forth from Dragonstone to KL.

3) Yes, I believe Brandon was the father.

4) In a word, yes. I think there was some "hey Brandon, maybe you should marry Ashara" sentiment/discussion between one or more of Rhaegar, Ashara, Lyanna, and/or Arthur, possibly even Rickard Stark!

5) Yes, see #4.

6). No, she is absolutely dead. It is one of the truly tragic elements in the story.

Bonus answer = Ashara's baby was not stillborn on Dragonstone, Elia's was. They switched them. That is why she threw herself from the tower, she only learned of Aegon's death in KL from The Ned.

[Jon Snow Nothing]

1) Brandon.

2) She did get pregnant, but went to Dragonstone with Elia. Ashara did not leave court because of the pregnancy. Barristan heard gossip from the comings and goings of people back and forth from Dragonstone to KL.

3) Yes, I believe Brandon was the father.

4) In a word, yes. I think there was some "hey Brandon, maybe you should marry Ashara" sentiment/discussion between one or more of Rhaegar, Ashara, Lyanna, and/or Arthur, possibly even Rickard Stark!

5) Yes, see #4.

6). No, she is absolutely dead. It is one of the truly tragic elements in the story.

Bonus answer = Ashara's baby was not stillborn on Dragonstone, Elia's was. They switched them. That is why she threw herself from the tower, she only learned of Aegon's death in KL from The Ned.

I agree with you, but remember that Aegon had white blond hair. So maybe the father was not Brandon, but Aerys? Don't know for sure, but didn't they identify Aegon by the hair, because the rest of his face was unrecognizable?

I always thought that Elia having a second baby after the tourney was very suspicious. They should (and could) have waited a little more to have another child. But Elia was getting older, don't know... This theory has always been in my thoughts, that f(Aegon) or the believed to be true Aegon was Ashara's baby.

 

[purple-eyes]

1) Brandon.

2) She did get pregnant, but went to Dragonstone with Elia. Ashara did not leave court because of the pregnancy. Barristan heard gossip from the comings and goings of people back and forth from Dragonstone to KL.

3) Yes, I believe Brandon was the father.

4) In a word, yes. I think there was some "hey Brandon, maybe you should marry Ashara" sentiment/discussion between one or more of Rhaegar, Ashara, Lyanna, and/or Arthur, possibly even Rickard Stark!

5) Yes, see #4.

6). No, she is absolutely dead. It is one of the truly tragic elements in the story.

Bonus answer = Ashara's baby was not stillborn on Dragonstone, Elia's was. They switched them. That is why she threw herself from the tower, she only learned of Aegon's death in KL from The Ned.

what is the point to switch a stark baby and pretend him to be rhaegar's heir? 

Targaryen had enough still-born babies, they do not need to adopt one from a random person. 

This is just so impossible. 

 

 

[Jon Snow Nothing]

brandon was booked for cat, daughter of house tully. House dayne is a minor house even in dorne. 

I do not think they can do anything to change that and make brandon marry  ashara.

More important, brandon is happy or willing to marry cat. He never wanted to marry ashara. He is an irresponsible man. 

He asked rhaegar for a duel. This is to ask justice for lyanna. It is actually a reasonable request. He knows lyanna must be at control of rhaegar. So he had to deal with rhaegar firstly. 

 

 

 

Yes, but in King's Landing? Why would Rhaegar be there? Someone might have told him he was there with his sister? For Brandon to shout to the King that he wanted to kill his son? I understand he had "wolf's blood" but don't you think that was very stupid, even for Brandon?

I don't know if I understand what you mean by "Lyanna must be at control of Rhaegar"...

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

My theory is that she was never pregnant at all. She left KL because she was in charge of making the arrangements for Rhaegar to stay in ToJ, and gossipy people started that rumour. At the end, Ashara likely died a virgin, and Ned knew about it, hence, why he doesn't like to talk about it and stopped all the rumours about her because he really liked her.

[Light a wight tonight]

I really tend to doubt that Barristan is a reliable source. The Dornish are much less inhibited when it comes to sexual relationships, so if Ashara had a brief fling at Harrenhall she wouldn't necessarily feel dishonored, no matter what Barristan's view on the subject was. 

As to pregnancy, there's always moon tea, and tansy if things are too far advanced. That's been a constant thread throughout the story, with Lysa, Margaery, and who knows who else. It makes me doubt the whole stillborn daughter/suicide story. 

[Dorian Martell]

Hello, I'm new here and this is my first topic, sorry if this has been discussed multiple times, but I read the books a long time ago and only now I'm re-reading them.

Along with Rhaegar T. and Lyanna S., there is a character whose "mystery" I think it's quite interesting. Ashara Dayne was beautiful, one of the young companions of Princess Elia at court. She conquered Barristan's heart, but he was too shy to declare for her (and I can't see why he would, since he was a KG and couldn't get married).

So, what do you think happened to her?

1) Who dishonored her at the tourney at Harrenhal?

2) If she got pregnant, did she leave court? But how does Barristan know she had a stillborn daughter? Gossip?

3) Do you think the person who "dishonored" her was the father of her baby? Could it be Brandon Stark?

4) If it was Brandon Stark, do you think maybe the "abduction" of Lyanna, right before Brandon was going to get married to Catelyn, has something to do with it?

5) Arthur Dayne was a KG and one of the few people who could be called Rhaegar's friend. Do you think they would have tried to "repair" the situation?

6) Do you think she might be alive, since her body has never been found?

 

Sorry if it sounds confusing, I just wanted to read what do you guys think of this character. I have a feeling she's more important than we might think.

 

1: It does not matter who
2: She probably left court and barry could have found out from the prince of dorne or her brother, both of them were in the KG
3: does not matter 
4: no
5: no
6: no

[purple-eyes]

Yes, but in King's Landing? Why would Rhaegar be there? Someone might have told him he was there with his sister? For Brandon to shout to the King that he wanted to kill his son? I understand he had "wolf's blood" but don't you think that was very stupid, even for Brandon?

I don't know if I understand what you mean by "Lyanna must be at control of Rhaegar"...

 

rhaegar's seat is in DS, but he had his position in court. And his king and father is there. If rhaegar is not in KL, aerys should be the one who will summon rhaegar and answer for his action. If you want to find persistent, your first thinking must be White House. But obviously president would not stay there all the time. But that is his base. 

To be accurate. Brandon asked for a duel. He did not ask rhaegar out and die. He just did like little finger, want to have a duel for justice. Like oberyn with yronwood. It is not stupid. 

It is stupid to gather some men to attack red keep. Not asking a duel. 

Lyanna was taken by rhaegar. In reality, somebody abducted a girl. Of course gurl's family needs to check and negotiate or fight with the person who took her. 

What is the point to ask about her? She is obviously at the hands of rhaegar.  Rhaegar only can decide how to deal with her. 

[purple-eyes]

My theory is that she was never pregnant at all. She left KL because she was in charge of making the arrangements for Rhaegar to stay in ToJ, and gossipy people started that rumour. At the end, Ashara likely died a virgin, and Ned knew about it, hence, why he doesn't like to talk about it and stopped all the rumours about her because he really liked her.

then why would she commit suicide just because her brother died? 

Have we heard even one case in the history like that? 

[Jon Snow Nothing]

rhaegar's seat is in DS, but he had his position in court. And his king and father is there. If rhaegar is not in KL, aerys should be the one who will summon rhaegar and answer for his action. If you want to find persistent, your first thinking must be White House. But obviously president would not stay there all the time. But that is his base. 

To be accurate. Brandon asked for a duel. He did not ask rhaegar out and die. He just did like little finger, want to have a duel for justice. Like oberyn with yronwood. It is not stupid. 

It is stupid to gather some men to attack red keep. Not asking a duel. 

Lyanna was taken by rhaegar. In reality, somebody abducted a girl. Of course gurl's family needs to check and negotiate or fight with the person who took her. 

What is the point to ask about her? She is obviously at the hands of rhaegar.  Rhaegar only can decide how to deal with her. 

If I'm not mistaken, Brandon headed to KL immediately after knowing (or knowing what was told to him) and shouted for Rhaegar to "come out and die". Everybody in Westeros knew that the king was mad, so his behavior is very very stupid, imo.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

then why would she commit suicide just because her brother died? 

Have we heard even one case in the history like that? 

If my theory is correct, she was participate of helping Rhaegar, as well as Arthur. She could have felt guilty that it all leaded to her brother (and many others) dying, including Elia and the children. Survivor's guilt can lead to depression, and depression can lead to suicide.

[purple-eyes]

If my theory is correct, she was participate of helping Rhaegar, as well as Arthur. She could have felt guilty that it all leaded to her brother (and many others) dying, including Elia and the children. Survivor's guilt can lead to depression, and depression can lead to suicide.

I highly doubt this can serve as a convincing reason in a fantasy world. 

I think it is pretty clear that she had some sort of love affair and pregnancy with somebody. 

She left the court due to this.