Ashara Dayne

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I highly doubt this can serve as a convincing reason in a fantasy world. 

I think it is pretty clear that she had some sort of love affair and pregnancy with somebody. 

She left the court due to this. 

 

We're supposed to believe so.

We've been told she was the prettiest girl of her time, and highly popular, but that doesn't imply she actually had an affair.

[Jon Snow Nothing]

If my theory is correct, she was participate of helping Rhaegar, as well as Arthur. She could have felt guilty that it all leaded to her brother (and many others) dying, including Elia and the children. Survivor's guilt can lead to depression, and depression can lead to suicide.

How do you think she participated in helping Rhaegar? Arthur was probably there when the "abduction" happened, but what could Ashara do to help them? I can't help but think that Ashara is alive, or was alive for a time after the "suicide". Arthur could died in battle, just like Rhaegar, she should not blame herself of this. But if the child that was smashed to death was hers, maybe she did have a reason to commit suicide...

[FuzzyJAM]

We have two mystery babies already (Jon and Aegon - even if Aegon is fake, he's still a mystery baby) so the idea of yet another one seems very meh.  I doubt she was ever pregnant and if she was she surely had a miscarriage.  

If it turns out that Ned and Ashara equals Dany or some shit I'm not going to be happy.  The way she's talked about is definitely odd for an "unimportant" dead person, so there's surely something. . .but so far, nothing I've heard that would make her more than a curiosity sounds good.  Septa Lemore is maybe just passable, I guess, but in that case Tyrion's boat has three dead people on it.  Fuck that.  

[JonCon's Red Beard]

How do you think she participated in helping Rhaegar? Arthur was probably there when the "abduction" happened, but what could Ashara do to help them? I can't help but think that Ashara is alive, or was alive for a time after the "suicide". Arthur could died in battle, just like Rhaegar, she should not blame herself of this. But if the child that was smashed to death was hers, maybe she did have a reason to commit suicide...

Geographically, ToJ is very close to Starfall and I'm quite positive this is not a coincidence. As it has also being hinted in both books and by Martin that Arthur had some sort of involvement in Rhaegar trying to remove Aerys: maybe they planned it all from the beginning and Rhaegar was supposed to stay in ToJ recruiting Lords to his cause. If so, someone had to prepare the place for a Prince and three Kingsguards to stay, and that was probably someone close to Arthur and Rhaegar: Ashara. Asrhara could have been (or was supposed to be) the go-between for the group, as they were in hiding and couldn't just pop out to any near settlement to ask for news.

Everything we assume about Ashara is just that: assumptions. People heard of a pretty popular women who was probably lusted by many men and we are assuming she slept with one of them. Why would she? There is no real evidence of that except what people who never actually knew her has said. Like, Barristan knew for certain she was pregnant? He saw her with a belly? He knew that she indeed had sex? or Barristan, being Barristan, assumed that the rumours of a woman having to leave in a hurry were caused by a dishonourable pregnancy because that's how he perceives the world?

The idea of Ashara being pregnant has been placed in our heads as only rumours and we've taken thema s facts. People just assume that because Ned probably had a crush on her and Brandon spoke on his favour, one of them slept with her. Could it be that Ashara like neither of them and didnt' even want to sleep with anyone? Like, she couldn't have a choice? Maybe she thought Brandon was a player and Ned was an idiot. Why we assume that because they liked her she liked them back? I mean, yeah, it's very possible she got pregnant by one of them, I've myself believed so: but now I'm more inclined to believe it was nothing but a rumour.

 

[Jon Snow Nothing]

We have two mystery babies already (Jon and Aegon - even if Aegon is fake, he's still a mystery baby) so the idea of yet another one seems very meh.  I doubt she was ever pregnant and if she was she surely had a miscarriage.  

If it turns out that Ned and Ashara equals Dany or some shit I'm not going to be happy.  The way she's talked about is definitely odd for an "unimportant" dead person, so there's surely something. . .but so far, nothing I've heard that would make her more than a curiosity sounds good.  Septa Lemore is maybe just passable, I guess, but in that case Tyrion's boat has three dead people on it.  Fuck that.  

Dany is the only (surviving) person we can be sure to be daughter of Aerys and Rhaella. That's why Martin made Aerys rape his wife, otherwise people would be questioning her parentage too. But Martin being Martin had to make Barristan Selmy think about Ashara's eyes, and how they resemble Dany's eyes I wonder what JonCon would say about Dany's eyes too - enough of purple, violet, and lilac eyes. This doesn't prove anything, not even that Aegon is fake.

Yes, too many babies, not counting the wildlings ones...

[Jon Snow Nothing]

Geographically, ToJ is very close to Starfall and I'm quite positive this is not a coincidence. As it has also being hinted in both books and by Martin that Arthur had some sort of involvement in Rhaegar trying to remove Aerys: maybe they planned it all from the beginning and Rhaegar was supposed to stay in ToJ recruiting Lords to his cause. If so, someone had to prepare the place for a Prince and three Kingsguards to stay, and that was probably someone close to Arthur and Rhaegar: Ashara. Asrhara could have been (or was supposed to be) the go-between for the group, as they were in hiding and couldn't just pop out to any near settlement to ask for news.

Everything we assume about Ashara is just that: assumptions. People heard of a pretty popular women who was probably lusted by many men and we are assuming she slept with one of them. Why would she? There is no real evidence of that except what people who never actually knew her has said. Like, Barristan knew for certain she was pregnant? He saw her with a belly? He knew that she indeed had sex? or Barristan, being Barristan, assumed that the rumours of a woman having to leave in a hurry were caused by a dishonourable pregnancy because that's how he perceives the world?

The idea of Ashara being pregnant has been placed in our heads as only rumours and we've taken thema s facts. People just assume that because Ned probably had a crush on her and Brandon spoke on his favour, one of them slept with her. Could it be that Ashara like neither of them and didnt' even want to sleep with anyone? Like, she couldn't have a choice? Maybe she thought Brandon was a player and Ned was an idiot. Why we assume that because they liked her she liked them back? I mean, yeah, it's very possible she got pregnant by one of them, I've myself believed so: but now I'm more inclined to believe it was nothing but a rumour.

 

Ok, I think I understand her involvement in your theory, but why kidnapping Lyanna had anything to do with deposing Aerys? Or you think the tower of joy have nothing to do with R + L = J? If she was only trying to help to remove Aerys from the throne she should not feel guilty at all.

Hmmm, I think if Ashara was not pregs she wouldn't let everybody think she was, right?

[purple-eyes]

The point is, if ashara did not get pregnant at all, there would be no rumor about her child, her still born, her love story spreading so much. 

Every rumor related to her had a child in it. Cersei, cat, Barri. Plus those soldiers of ned. You name it. 

It is highly unlikely that she "died as a virgin". 

 

[FuzzyJAM]

Yes, too many babies, not counting the wildlings ones...

I knew I was forgetting one.  But Monster at least has the decency to be a fairly quick reveal at only a week or three.

So yeah, if we have a fourth hidden baby in the series I think we might be reaching shark jumping territory.  

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Ok, I think I understand her involvement in your theory, but why kidnapping Lyanna had anything to do with deposing Aerys? Or you think the tower of joy have nothing to do with R + L = J? If she was only trying to help to remove Aerys from the throne she should not feel guilty at all.

We don't know for certain that Lyanna was kidnapped either.

My theory is that Rhaegar was planning to remove Aerys from even before meeting Lyanna Stark, and having to move to ToJ happened after he realised Varys was meddling into his business (he convinced the King to assist to the Tourney). On his way to Dorne, he met Lyanna. Whatever happened between them there, and how she ended up going with him is what we still don't know.

Hmmm, I think if Ashara was not pregs she wouldn't let everybody think she was, right?

Because there is no much she can do. Also, we don't know if she was aware of people saying so. Remember that people probably started to pointing her as possible mother of Jon once Ned returns with the baby, and that's probably not much after she killed herself. Then, people started to "tie the dots": Ned visited, Ned had a son, Ashara killed herself, hence, she was pregnant.

There is also a chance that the Daynes circulated the rumour (or didn't bother on shutting it down) of her killing herself after losing her daughter because the truth would be dangerous: they were participants of Rhaegar's plot. Remember how many of the Targ loyalists ended up (the Darrys and the Conningtons).

[Jon Snow Nothing]

We don't know for certain that Lyanna was kidnapped either.

My theory is that Rhaegar was planning to remove Aerys from even before meeting Lyanna Stark, and having to move to ToJ happened after he realised Varys was meddling into his business (he convinced the King to assist to the Tourney). On his way to Dorne, he met Lyanna. Whatever happened between them there, and how she ended up going with him is what we still don't know.

Because there is no much she can do. Also, we don't know if she was aware of people saying so. Remember that people probably started to pointing her as possible mother of Jon once Ned returns with the baby, and that's probably not much after she killed herself. Then, people started to "tie the dots": Ned visited, Ned had a son, Ashara killed herself, hence, she was pregnant.

There is also a chance that the Daynes circulated the rumour (or didn't bother on shutting it down) of her killing herself after losing her daughter because the truth would be dangerous: they were participants of Rhaegar's plot. Remember how many of the Targ loyalists ended up (the Darrys and the Conningtons).

Well, Ser Barristan seemed to be so sure that Ashara was pregnant.

I don't know, there is so much mystery about this tower of joy. It's funny because there is a Tarot card name The Tower. But this is another theory - not exactly a theory but an ideia I had long ago.

I think we can be sure that Rhaegar was surely wanting to remove Aerys? Wasn't the tourney of Harrenhal where the Lords would decide what to do? Or was that only madness from Aerys? Anyway, I think Varys had something to do with Aerys being "mad" (another no-theory, just an ideia). I remember in the books, somewhere, it was mentioned that there are lots of poisons, one of them has the effect of driving a man crazy.

If Ashara was pregnant, she would be pregnant at the same time Elia was, they would give birth at the same time (more or less). When she "died", the babies would have been at least nine months old?

But anyway, Ashara being guilty of everything and killing herself I can't agree, but if she had something to hide from Robert B., surely Ned would not help her like he did with Lyanna (assuming Jon is really her son).

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Well, Ser Barristan seemed to be so sure that Ashara was pregnant.

Barristan wasn't close to her. Also, Ashara was a handmaid of Elia and Elia lived in Dragonstone. Barristan lived in KL.

I don't know, there is so much mystery about this tower of joy. It's funny because there is a Tarot card name The Tower. But this is another theory - not exactly a theory but an ideia I had long ago.

I think we can be sure that Rhaegar was surely wanting to remove Aerys? Wasn't the tourney of Harrenhal where the Lords would decide what to do? Or was that only madness from Aerys? Anyway, I think Varys had something to do with Aerys being "mad" (another no-theory, just an ideia). I remember in the books, somewhere, it was mentioned that there are lots of poisons, one of them has the effect of driving a man crazy.

There are some clues indicating that Rhaegar was trying to remove Aerys in the World Book. Also, when Martin was asked if Arthur was up to something, he implied we would find out. Besides Jaime remembering how Rhaegar wanted to call for a Council, the World Book hints at Rhaegar being a political player more than the books.

If Ashara was pregnant, she would be pregnant at the same time Elia was, they would give birth at the same time (more or less). When she "died", the babies would have been at least nine months old?

If Ashara was pregnant after Harrenhal, her baby was probably one year old, the same Aegon had when he "died".

But anyway, Ashara being guilty of everything and killing herself I can't agree, but if she had something to hide from Robert B., surely Ned would not help her like he did with Lyanna (assuming Jon is really her son).

She wasn't guilty of "everything", only of her being involved in the Rebellion. At the end, Rhaegar's plan ended up with many people dying, including her friends and her brother.

[Jon Snow Nothing]

There are some clues indicating that Rhaegar was trying to remove Aerys in the World Book. Also, when Martin was asked if Arthur was up to something, he implied we would find out. Besides Jaime remembering how Rhaegar wanted to call for a Council, the World Book hints at Rhaegar being a political player more than the books.

Am I mistaken to remember that Aerys was not supposed to go the tourney and ended up being there because Varys told him that Rhaegar was planning something against him? I am re-reading the books slowly, I read them all a long time ago, so some things are not very clear and might be my imagination (like the poison that could drive a man crazy).

My husband was listening to me debating about Ashara and Selmy and he said something I hadn't think of. JonCon says that Aegon has different eyes from Rhaegar, and Selmy says that Daenerys has eyes the color of Ashara's. That might be a trick from Martin, like if we think, the Lannisters also don't have the same shade of green eyes. So Aegon can be really Aegon, and Dany and Ashara having the same eyes was just a way Martin found to link Selmy to Daenerys (as a daughter he could have had with Ashara).

[Ben zo Xand]

1) No one. That's a rumor that was spread. 

2) Yes. Both her and the child are alive. The gossip is that she was raped, the child die upon birth and she killed herself.

3) The father of the Baby (Girl) is Rhaegar.

4) Lyanna was not "abducted" she left willingly with Rhaegar. (I think they truely love each other but we will know soon enough) Bradon Stark is a Stark and Stark's are men of Honor.

5) He's actually Rhaegar best friend. He was protecting one of Rhaegar son's (Jon) and Lyanna at the Tower of Joy.

6) Yes. She is Quaithe.

[Ben zo Xand]

Well, Ser Barristan seemed to be so sure that Ashara was pregnant.

I don't know, there is so much mystery about this tower of joy. It's funny because there is a Tarot card name The Tower. But this is another theory - not exactly a theory but an ideia I had long ago.

I think we can be sure that Rhaegar was surely wanting to remove Aerys? Wasn't the tourney of Harrenhal where the Lords would decide what to do? Or was that only madness from Aerys? Anyway, I think Varys had something to do with Aerys being "mad" (another no-theory, just an ideia). I remember in the books, somewhere, it was mentioned that there are lots of poisons, one of them has the effect of driving a man crazy.

If Ashara was pregnant, she would be pregnant at the same time Elia was, they would give birth at the same time (more or less). When she "died", the babies would have been at least nine months old?

But anyway, Ashara being guilty of everything and killing herself I can't agree, but if she had something to hide from Robert B., surely Ned would not help her like he did with Lyanna (assuming Jon is really her son).

Yes the plan was to remove Aerys. That seems true. Varys wants what is best for the land and Rhaegar it's that choice. So he is on his side. He went crazy on his own accord. He was not poison by Varys. He doesn't do that kind of stuff.

No Ashara gives birth almost 2 years after Elia gives birth to Aegon. The pregnancies that were around the same time (more or less) are Ashara's and Rhaella's.

She "killed" herself because she needs to protect her daughter. Because she believes on the prophecy and knows of the Long Night that is coming. She doesn't need Ned's help. The child was born with Targaryen features it needs to be hidden just like Aegon has.

[purple-eyes]

1) No one. That's a rumor that was spread. 

2) Yes. Both her and the child are alive. The gossip is that she was raped, the child die upon birth and she killed herself.

3) The father of the Baby (Girl) is Rhaegar.

4) Lyanna was not "abducted" she left willingly with Rhaegar. (I think they truely love each other but we will know soon enough) Bradon Stark is a Stark and Stark's are men of Honor.

5) He's actually Rhaegar best friend. He was protecting one of Rhaegar son's (Jon) and Lyanna at the Tower of Joy.

6) Yes. She is Quaithe.

sorry i laughed. 

so rhaegar raped Ashara? or he fell in love with Ashara too?

Or when Lyanna is pregnant in toj, rhaegar is bored, so he got Ashara from nearby to warm his bed? then he gave her a baby girl?

 

[purple-eyes]

Yes the plan was to remove Aerys. That seems true. Varys wants what is best for the land and Rhaegar it's that choice. So he is on his side. He went crazy on his own accord. He was not poison by Varys. He doesn't do that kind of stuff.

No Ashara gives birth 1 year (or so) after Elia gives birth to Aegon. The pregnancies that were around the same time (more or less) are Ashara's and Rhaella's.

She "killed" herself because she needs to protect her daughter. Because she believes on the prophecy and knows of the Long Night that is coming. She doesn't need Ned's help. The child was born with Targaryen features it needs to be hidden just like Aegon has.

we absolutely do not know about this. 

only thing we can confirm is that Tourney is in 281, and Aegon was born in 281. And Dany was born in 283. there are two years between rhaella's pregnancy and Elia's pregnancy. 

[Curled Finger]

As to the rumor of Ashara's pregnancy it really is just a rumor not unlike the Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna rumor.  And Lyanna said nothing to refute the tale.   Not even to her family. I have to agree with the consensus that the Daynes were very much involved in Rhaegar's plot to remove Aerys from power.  The Daynes are likely entrenched in all the prophesy Rhaegar was studying.   I don't think Rhaegar was a dummy.   As to Barristan's recounting of Ashara Dayne...Meera and Jojen know every single man she danced with at Harrenhall, presumably from the tales their father told them, or perhaps their MOTHER?   It would be heartbreaking to learn that it was some child of Ashara's who was switched to die in place of Aegon.   That's just morbid and cruel.   Of all the possibilities for beautiful Ashara's secret identity,  her running off with a homely little crannogman is so sweet--I'd take that small piece of happy ending for both of them in this miserable story.   Not long ago someone had the clever idea that Lyanna was the Stark Ashara turned to.   That would give Lyanna and Ashara a closeness and each of them an ally for their part in the deceptions about to play out.  

All that aside, we don't actually know anything other than Ashara was beautiful, a Dayne, and in attendance a the tourney at Harrenhall.

 

[Ben zo Xand]

sorry i laughed. 

so rhaegar raped Ashara? or he fell in love with Ashara too?

Or when Lyanna is pregnant in toj, rhaegar is bored, so he got Ashara from nearby to warm his bed? then he gave her a baby girl?

 

I smiled :).

I don't know what character Rhaegar is in your imagination. But he doesn't rape women or Brandon for that matter... much less Highborn women. Rhaegar didn't fell in love with Ashara. They were all fulling their "destiny". (Is my believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna love each other. True Love. I don't think she dies on child birth. It's more suicide. IMO. I might be wrong but we will see)

Again read more about the characteristics of Rhaegar. He doesn't make women warm his bed. He doesn't do all this kind of shit. He is a gifted boy driven to a cause.

[Ben zo Xand]

we absolutely do not know about this. 

only thing we can confirm is that Tourney is in 281, and Aegon was born in 281. And Dany was born in 283. there are two years between rhaella's pregnancy and Elia's pregnancy. 

Yes it's actually 2 years. I corrected that. We do know that Ashara and Rhaellas were to be due on late 283 or so. We don't know the specific dates but after TOJ. Ned returns the Sword of the Morning to Ashara and then heads north after Ashara kills herself with a Boy named Jon.

[purple-eyes]

I smiled :).

I don't know what character Rhaegar is in your imagination. But he doesn't rape women or Brandon for that matter... much less Highborn women. Rhaegar didn't fell in love with Ashara. They were all fulling their "destiny". (Is my believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna love each other. True Love. I don't think she dies on child birth. It's more suicide. IMO. I might be wrong but we will see)

Again read more about the characteristics of Rhaegar. He doesn't make women warm his bed. He doesn't do all this kind of shit. He is a gifted boy driven to a cause.

I assume you mean that he wanted to have three heads. he had two with his wife then her womb was ruined, so he tried to make it with Ashara, ELia's lady in waiting. he had sex with Ashara but did not love her, just use her as a womb, but the daugher was stillborn, then he did not bother to try again with Ashara, in stead he fell in love with Lyanna, so he abandoned Ashara to pursue Lyanna, right?

All right, so he abandoned his wife and two young children, he made Ashara pregnant and gave her a baby due to some destiny. then he fell in love with Lyanna and ran away, left a bloody war for his mad daddy to deal with so he killed the father and bother of her lover. then he left his lover to fight and try to kill his lover's another brother plus her totally innocent fiancee. 

Such a gifted boy.