I need help understand the idea of fAegon...

[purple-eyes]

Keep the show out of it, it completely scrapped the whole prophecy angle, and may therefore take a completely different take on the whole thing.

yeah, but for such an important thing like "tywin is not Tyrion's father, the mad dragon king is!", i would say show will include it. 

like aegon. he was out of show, this pretty much confirmed he is fake. 

[ANNALISVETH]

I believe that like Aegon I with his two sisters/wives Visenya and Rhaenys make the "the dragon has three heads" I think that now is the opposite of that, so it will be Daenerys Targaryen and two males. Since the first was Aegon I (Male) and Visenya and Rhaenys (two females)

[Lord Varys]

yeah, but for such an important thing like "tywin is not Tyrion's father, the mad dragon king is!", i would say show will include it. 

like aegon. he was out of show, this pretty much confirmed he is fake. 

Well, you can think what you want, of course, but the show isn't an indicator for what's important in the books. Just like my personal preferences aren't important for that, either, even if I'd adapting the books for a TV show.

Aegon being in or out of the show doesn't prove anything in any direction just as Stannis' or Selmy's premature deaths didn't prove anything. The showrunners do what they want, not what makes sense in relation to the story the books are telling. The best example for that would be to keep the valonqar part of the valonqar prophecy out of the valonqar prophecy. They obviously do not want Jaime or Tyrion to kill Cersei.

[bent branch]

yeah, but the show basically provided zero clue for tyrion to be aerys's bastard. 

If this is so important, we will know something from the show. 

 

 

Basing anything in the books by what happens in the show is always a mistake.

Well very possibly and more than likely but she is assuming there, it's nothing she fully understood, Jorah mentioned the sigil of her house and Aegon and his sisters. So Dany assumes that it must be something along those lines, and she may be right. But again it is a guess on her part, as is weather she can trust them or not. It is also designed to continue the themes that Dany often feels alone and like she can't trust anyone on a personal level, her desire for family.

Of course she is assuming. Everyone in the story who thinks they have figured out a prophecy is making some kind of assumptions. But it is still clear she believes there are two Targaryens out in the world.

[ChillyPolly]

If fAegon isn't really Aegon, son and heir to Rhaegar, then what was the point of Dany's vision when Rhaegar tells her there must be one more?

Wouldn't Aegon's death at the hands of Gregor mean that "there must be two more".

Possibly.  But it is possible that Baby Aegon is still out there, but FAegon is not that person.

Here's what I think happened.  I heard it from another eclectus parrot, and it must be true, because eclectus parrots never lie.

When Baby Aegon was smuggled away, he was put in the protection of his Uncle, Prince Doran Martell.  Doran Martell's favorite sport his to hang out at the Water Gardens, watch naked children, ponder the fact that they are hard to tell apart, and otherwise ponder baby-swapping schemes.

Baby Aegon was maybe 1 or 2 years old when he was smuggled to Doran.  Meanwhile, Doran's own second son, Quentyn Martell, was about the same age.  Doran's wife, Melario, was a Norvosi Noblewoman, of the blood of Old Valyria.  Hence, Doran found himself with 2 children, of about the same age, both of mixed Martell/Valyrian heritage.

As the children aged, Baby Aegon began to darken, and look less like a Targ, and take more after his dumpy-looking mother.  Meanwhile, Quentyn Martell started to grow into a Golden Boy, taking after his Norvosi mother.

Meanwhile, Doran was struggling to keep peace with his Bannermen, the Yronwoods, who were outraged by the murder of Lord Yronwood by the Red Viper.  To keep the peace, Doran promised to foster his own son, Quentyn, as a "blood price".  This of course made Melario really upset.

In the end, however, Doran decided not to send his own son to the Yronwoods, but another child in its place.  He began to raise the infants to switch their newly formed identities.  Quentyn became Aegon and Aegon became Quentyn.  In place of his son, he sent his nephew to the Yronwoods.  Meanwhile, Quentyn became "Young Griff" and went to Essos to prepare to claim the Iron Throne, under the tutelage of Lord Connington, and Septa Lemore (who is, of course, Melario of Norvos in disguise, raising her own son).

When Doran sent Quentyn to Dany, it was with the expectation that he would probably fail.  Most of his eggs were in another basket - that of his real son.

And of course, like all sensible people, I believe Quentyn "the Frog" Martell (Baby Aegon), who dreams of fire and blood, to still be alive, hanging out with Viserion in a well-stocked abandoned pyramid, and generally having an easier time of it than Dany did after her first dragon-riding experience.

[FuzzyJAM]

It's worth noting that Dany is the only person in the books (that I recall, anyway) to work out any mystical nonsense (presumably!) correctly, regarding the Sun's son.  

What exactly that tells us is debatable.  

[Ser Creighton]

Basing anything in the books by what happens in the show is always a mistake.

Of course she is assuming. Everyone in the story who thinks they have figured out a prophecy is making some kind of assumptions. But it is still clear she believes there are two Targaryens out in the world.

No not assuming based off the prophecy, assuming based off what Jorah said. She had no idea what the three heads of the dragons were, she asked Jorah and his answer was the sigil of her house and it represents Aegon and his sisters. She herself did not understand the prophecy, she didn't gain anything herself the information came from Jorah.

Much the same way same gained information from Aemon though he did not know the question. Aemon repeats to him some of what he had discussed with Rhaegar including the Prince that was promised and the Dragon with three heads, though he is to old to be one of them as he tells us. Through that moment the reader learns that Dany's vision does in fact have a foundation, it reflects Rhaegar's own beliefs, Aemon confirms this but Dany is not privy to this information either. She has no information on a Prince that was promised or a prophecy about waking the dragons. Which is much safer for her if you understand the dangers of prophecy which he demonstrates with Mel.

 

[purple-eyes]

Possibly.  But it is possible that Baby Aegon is still out there, but FAegon is not that person.

Here's what I think happened.  I heard it from another eclectus parrot, and it must be true, because eclectus parrots never lie.

When Baby Aegon was smuggled away, he was put in the protection of his Uncle, Prince Doran Martell.  Doran Martell's favorite sport his to hang out at the Water Gardens, watch naked children, ponder the fact that they are hard to tell apart, and otherwise ponder baby-swapping schemes.

Baby Aegon was maybe 1 or 2 years old when he was smuggled to Doran.  Meanwhile, Doran's own second son, Quentyn Martell, was about the same age.  Doran's wife, Melario, was a Norvosi Noblewoman, of the blood of Old Valyria.  Hence, Doran found himself with 2 children, of about the same age, both of mixed Martell/Valyrian heritage.

As the children aged, Baby Aegon began to darken, and look less like a Targ, and take more after his dumpy-looking mother.  Meanwhile, Quentyn Martell started to grow into a Golden Boy, taking after his Norvosi mother.

Meanwhile, Doran was struggling to keep peace with his Bannermen, the Yronwoods, who were outraged by the murder of Lord Yronwood by the Red Viper.  To keep the peace, Doran promised to foster his own son, Quentyn, as a "blood price".  This of course made Melario really upset.

In the end, however, Doran decided not to send his own son to the Yronwoods, but another child in its place.  He began to raise the infants to switch their newly formed identities.  Quentyn became Aegon and Aegon became Quentyn.  In place of his son, he sent his nephew to the Yronwoods.  Meanwhile, Quentyn became "Young Griff" and went to Essos to prepare to claim the Iron Throne, under the tutelage of Lord Connington, and Septa Lemore (who is, of course, Melario of Norvos in disguise, raising her own son).

When Doran sent Quentyn to Dany, it was with the expectation that he would probably fail.  Most of his eggs were in another basket - that of his real son.

And of course, like all sensible people, I believe Quentyn "the Frog" Martell (Baby Aegon), who dreams of fire and blood, to still be alive, hanging out with Viserion in a well-stocked abandoned pyramid, and generally having an easier time of it than Dany did after her first dragon-riding experience.

nowhere said mellario has valyria blood.  

are you confusing with Lady Nym? her mom was of old valyria blood. 

 

[purple-eyes]

Well, you can think what you want, of course, but the show isn't an indicator for what's important in the books. Just like my personal preferences aren't important for that, either, even if I'd adapting the books for a TV show.

Aegon being in or out of the show doesn't prove anything in any direction just as Stannis' or Selmy's premature deaths didn't prove anything. The showrunners do what they want, not what makes sense in relation to the story the books are telling. The best example for that would be to keep the valonqar part of the valonqar prophecy out of the valonqar prophecy. They obviously do not want Jaime or Tyrion to kill Cersei.

stannis and selmy and also loraq would surely die. show just made it quicker to save some budget or fit their own plots. 

but the ending would be similar. 

even for sansa line, you still can expect she will eventually face the same fate. 

This show has a lot of changes, sure. 

but just like in LOTR, no matter how we change the plot of faramir  (they changed a lot, like how he met frodo and sam), he will survive and become the steward of gondor and serve Aragorn. 

[Lord Wraith]

Possibly.  But it is possible that Baby Aegon is still out there, but FAegon is not that person.

Here's what I think happened.  I heard it from another eclectus parrot, and it must be true, because eclectus parrots never lie.

When Baby Aegon was smuggled away, he was put in the protection of his Uncle, Prince Doran Martell.  Doran Martell's favorite sport his to hang out at the Water Gardens, watch naked children, ponder the fact that they are hard to tell apart, and otherwise ponder baby-swapping schemes.

Baby Aegon was maybe 1 or 2 years old when he was smuggled to Doran.  Meanwhile, Doran's own second son, Quentyn Martell, was about the same age.  Doran's wife, Melario, was a Norvosi Noblewoman, of the blood of Old Valyria.  Hence, Doran found himself with 2 children, of about the same age, both of mixed Martell/Valyrian heritage.

As the children aged, Baby Aegon began to darken, and look less like a Targ, and take more after his dumpy-looking mother.  Meanwhile, Quentyn Martell started to grow into a Golden Boy, taking after his Norvosi mother.

Meanwhile, Doran was struggling to keep peace with his Bannermen, the Yronwoods, who were outraged by the murder of Lord Yronwood by the Red Viper.  To keep the peace, Doran promised to foster his own son, Quentyn, as a "blood price".  This of course made Melario really upset.

In the end, however, Doran decided not to send his own son to the Yronwoods, but another child in its place.  He began to raise the infants to switch their newly formed identities.  Quentyn became Aegon and Aegon became Quentyn.  In place of his son, he sent his nephew to the Yronwoods.  Meanwhile, Quentyn became "Young Griff" and went to Essos to prepare to claim the Iron Throne, under the tutelage of Lord Connington, and Septa Lemore (who is, of course, Melario of Norvos in disguise, raising her own son).

When Doran sent Quentyn to Dany, it was with the expectation that he would probably fail.  Most of his eggs were in another basket - that of his real son.

And of course, like all sensible people, I believe Quentyn "the Frog" Martell (Baby Aegon), who dreams of fire and blood, to still be alive, hanging out with Viserion in a well-stocked abandoned pyramid, and generally having an easier time of it than Dany did after her first dragon-riding experience.

Interesting, Bran Vras wrote something similar about it awhile ago. About Quentyn being a fake not him necessarily being Aegon. The Quentyn quest was set up to fail IMO.  Baby switching has become a thing in this story whether people want to accept it or not. I do like this version however. Give your parrot friend a cracker from me.

I always figured that Doran found a young boy that looked similar to him and send him to the Yronwoods.  He then sent Quentyn to live in Norvos with Mellario. Also I had an amusing crackpot idea that he could be Daario but that is a discussion for another time.

nowhere said mellario has valyria blood.  

are you confusing with Lady Nym? her mom was of old valyria blood. 

 

Norvos is a Valyrian colony it is highly possible even probably that Mellario had Valyrian ancestors.

[purple-eyes]

Interesting, Bran Vras wrote something similar about it awhile ago. About Quentyn being a fake not him necessarily being Aegon. The Quentyn quest was set up to fail IMO.  Baby switching has become a thing in this story whether people want to accept it or not. I do like this version however. Give your parrot friend a cracker from me.

I always figured that Doran found a young boy that looked similar to him and send him to the Yronwoods.  He then sent Quentyn to live in Norvos with Mellario. Also I had an amusing crackpot idea that he could be Daario but that is a discussion for another time.

Norvos is a Valyrian colony it is highly possible even probably that Mellario had Valyrian ancestors.

all nine cities are the colonies of valyrian. 

As far as we know, only in Lys and Volantis, these closest two cities had a lot of valyrian blood.

in fact, all three children of Doran did not look like to have valyrian blood. 

Even nym had pale white skin from her mom.  

[Lord Wraith]

all nine cities are the colonies of valyrian. 

As far as we know, only in Lys and Volantis, these closest two cities had a lot of valyrian blood.

in fact, all three children of Doran did not look like to have valyrian blood. 

Even nym had pale white skin from her mom.  

As I said its possible since he have no idea what Mellario looked like. Also from the stories we can see when Dornish and Valyria blood mixes some times they look Dornish. Such as Baelor Breakspear or Rhaenys. Other times they look Valyrian. I just "the seed is flexible" in these unions.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I am not so sure that the magic has a choice in what people see and don't see. On his best days I don't think Martin could write rules to make things in his world work. It's magic, it is a plot device, and the magic is Martin and Martin showed you what he wanted you to see, just like he tells you what he wants you to know.

I suppose it depends of the person casting the magic or the person asking. Cersei's future was exactly as it was predicted to her, but due to her choices. Also, Melisandre gets rights visions: she sees them wrong.

Dany wanted to know about her path: she was given info about her past and future, and what she needed to look for. The magic chooses the way to tell her, for whatever reason. Dany didn't ask for Rhaegar: whatever magic allowed this chose Rhaegar to tell her information she needed.

not necessarily targaryens, I guess. 

I do doubt if GRRM will make tyrion a targ. 

I think they do have to be Targaryens to be a head of the dragon. I know there is a lot of resistance to this idea, but I think it is clear there must be three Targaryens of some type to make three heads because Targaryens are the dragons.

IICR, Martin commented that the Heads (or the riders?) didn't need to be Targaryens. What he meant, I understand it as him saying that they didn't need to be named TARGARYEN, only having the blood. Possible candidates then:

Jon
Dany
Stannis
Shireen
Aegon (even if he's a Blackfyre)
Arianne
Trystane
The Sand Snakes
Plumm
Gendry
 

It's worth noting that Dany is the only person in the books (that I recall, anyway) to work out any mystical nonsense (presumably!) correctly, regarding the Sun's son.  

What exactly that tells us is debatable.  

Well, to be fair, that was easy

[John Doe]

I suppose it depends of the person casting the magic or the person asking. Cersei's future was exactly as it was predicted to her, but due to her choices. Also, Melisandre gets rights visions: she sees them wrong.

Dany wanted to know about her path: she was given info about her past and future, and what she needed to look for. The magic chooses the way to tell her, for whatever reason. Dany didn't ask for Rhaegar: whatever magic allowed this chose Rhaegar to tell her information she needed.

 

I don't think you can compare Melisandres visions to those in the HOTU as what Mel sees is what really happens, one way or another. So in her case, if Rhaegar said that in one of her visions, the person she saw probably said that in RL, but it might turn out he wasn't Rhaegar and she mixed him up.

[3legImp]

There is no reason to believe the vision was something that happened either.Nope, we don't know that. There is also the possibility that is half true.She knows there must be three Dragons around. So, yeah, could be even Stannis.Nope. Rhaegar said there would be one more, but there is no indication he told Elia "we need to have one more" or "I need to have one more". As far as we know, he could have even considered Viserys to be a third head.The fact he found out Elia couldn't have any more kids didn't imply he needed another woman. Rhaegar first thought he was the Prince, then, he thought it was Aegon. If he was told Elia wouldn't give him more children, maybe he thought he wasn't meant to be the father of such children or that the three heads didn't need to be all siblings: wouldn't be the first time he realised he was wrong (and looks like he would have been right). We are just assuming this. If Rhaegar had lived a few more months he would have known that his mother was having a third child and a probably third head. 

Did Rhaegar never find about his mother's pregnancy with Dany?

[purple-eyes]

 

Did Rhaegar never find about his mother's pregnancy with Dany?

 

he had a little bit time to know before his death. 

but he may not care though. 

[purple-eyes]

I suppose it depends of the person casting the magic or the person asking. Cersei's future was exactly as it was predicted to her, but due to her choices. Also, Melisandre gets rights visions: she sees them wrong.

Dany wanted to know about her path: she was given info about her past and future, and what she needed to look for. The magic chooses the way to tell her, for whatever reason. Dany didn't ask for Rhaegar: whatever magic allowed this chose Rhaegar to tell her information she needed.

 

IICR, Martin commented that the Heads (or the riders?) didn't need to be Targaryens. What he meant, I understand it as him saying that they didn't need to be named TARGARYEN, only having the blood. Possible candidates then:

Jon
Dany
Stannis
Shireen
Aegon (even if he's a Blackfyre)
Arianne
Trystane
The Sand Snakes
Plumm
Gendry
 

Well, to be fair, that was easy

hard to say. he may mean a true non-targ can ride a dragon. 

because we already know a person without name of targaryen can ride a dragon, such as those velaryons and dragon seeds. 

 

[bent branch]

No not assuming based off the prophecy, assuming based off what Jorah said. She had no idea what the three heads of the dragons were, she asked Jorah and his answer was the sigil of her house and it represents Aegon and his sisters. She herself did not understand the prophecy, she didn't gain anything herself the information came from Jorah.

Much the same way same gained information from Aemon though he did not know the question. Aemon repeats to him some of what he had discussed with Rhaegar including the Prince that was promised and the Dragon with three heads, though he is to old to be one of them as he tells us. Through that moment the reader learns that Dany's vision does in fact have a foundation, it reflects Rhaegar's own beliefs, Aemon confirms this but Dany is not privy to this information either. She has no information on a Prince that was promised or a prophecy about waking the dragons. Which is much safer for her if you understand the dangers of prophecy which he demonstrates with Mel.

 

From chapter 63-ACOK:

..."The dragon has three heads," she sighed. "Do you know what that means, Jorah?"

"Your Grace?" The sigil of House Targaryen is a three-headed dragon, red on black."

"I know that. But there are no three-headed dragons."

"The three heads were Aegon and his sisters."

"Visenya and Rhaenys," she recalled. "I am descended from Aegon and Rhaenys through their son Aenys and their grandson Jaehaerys."

This is the conversation between Jorah and Dany on this subject. Jorah obviously didn't tell Dany anything she didn't already know. You'll notice, he also didn't tell her that the interpretation of the prophecy was that there were two other Targaryens out there if she could find them. What the quotes show from ACOK and ASOS is that after thinking about it, Dany decided that the scene with Rhaegar meant there were two other "dragon heads", i.e. Targaryens out there if she could find them. And yes, Dany could be influenced by the various things you mentioned, but none of these things change the fact that at this point, she appears to believe there are two other Targaryens. I don't see why it makes a difference if Dany made this interpretation immediately or after some reflection.  

[ChillyPolly]

nowhere said mellario has valyria blood.  

are you confusing with Lady Nym? her mom was of old valyria blood. 

No.  I'm going by the World Book, which says that Great Norvos was founded by Valyria as a result of a religious schism, and also says that Norvos maintained its ties to Valyria by intermarriage.

Another interesting detail:  Norvoshi women shave their heads and wear wigs.  So if Melario of Norvos had Valyrian hair coloring, we would not know it.

[Lord Varys]

stannis and selmy and also loraq would surely die. show just made it quicker to save some budget or fit their own plots. 

but the ending would be similar. 

even for sansa line, you still can expect she will eventually face the same fate. 

This show has a lot of changes, sure. 

but just like in LOTR, no matter how we change the plot of faramir  (they changed a lot, like how he met frodo and sam), he will survive and become the steward of gondor and serve Aragorn. 

That goes against what George has said on the subject. He said that there will be characters that die in the show but are alive in the books and vice versa. If that's true then show deaths or survivals mean effectively nothing. It can be that there are similarities but we no longer have any reason that this is a general rule.

Even if Stannis, Aegon, and other pretenders eventually are defeated we don't have to assume they will have to die in the process. Say, Aegon could easily eventually be defeated by Dany in battle but she could decide to spare his life, and he might fight (and die or survive) at her side in the battle against the Others.

And if you check the LotR movies there is no confirmation/indication that Faramir and Éowyn actually married, or that the office of the Steward survived the ascension of Aragorn. Just because you want to believe that doesn't make it so, and anyone who has only seen the movies would certainly not believe that.