I need help understand the idea of fAegon...

[Han Lotion]

If fAegon isn't really Aegon, son and heir to Rhaegar, then what was the point of Dany's vision when Rhaegar tells her there must be one more?

Wouldn't Aegon's death at the hands of Gregor mean that "there must be two more". Assuming Rhaegar was talking  directly to Dany and not to Ellia (Dany notes that at this point she thinks Rhaegar might be breaking the fourth wall). If Rhaegar was talking to Elia...then is he saying Dany is the "third"? Or is he hinting to Dany that the key to discovering the "third" is his harp? (which many have suspected is buried with Lyanna) Rhaegar immediately pulls the strings on his harp after saying there must be one more. Almost simultaneously. He doesn't play it he just casually swipes his fingers across it for no reason.

This whole thing gets a bit muddied when you consider that if Dany's vision was actually a glimpse of the past then Rhaenys would have been alive as well (meaning 3 heads=R+A+Dany or harp clue). But if what Dany saw in the House of the Undying was actually more like a spiritual vision then it seems Rhaegar is implying "Aegon is real, Dany is 1of3 and that his harp holds a clue as to who the 3rd head of the dragon is". 

 

*But this would have to mean fAegon is really Rhaegar's son.

[The Glad King]

You have good points here. I am new to this forum (although I have wandered around in the past), so I am not that familiar with the evidence for fAegon. However, it seems that it would make a lot of sense to have Aegon as the third head of the dragon. If we go by the theory that lightbringer is actually a metaphor for dragons, and that Jon is Azor Ahai reborn, then it would also make sense that he would be the third head. To be honest though, I am not too crazy about having Aegon as the third head, since I dislike the character because of his sense of entitlement. There is another theory that Tyrion could be the third head, which I personally like better (which doesn't make it a better theory).  

[FuzzyJAM]

Rhaegar thought his children (Rhaenys, Aegon) were two heads of the dragon and he needed one more (obviously Jon) to complete the prophecy.  That's the ostensible meaning of the vision, and I see no reason to imagine that's not what we're to take from it.  Rhaenys, at least, is dead.  So his beliefs as to who the three heads would be (even assuming the idea of three heads is right at all) is wrong.  His ideas are not an accurate guide.  If one of the heads could be his sister, another could just as easily be a distant cousin (i.e. a Blackfyre).

If it's a third wall breaking vision, Rhaegar could just as easily be saying that Dany needs to find another head because, while his spirit knows one will be her and another his as yet unrevealed son, he doesn't know the third.  Or whatever.  At any rate, even that is easily workable with a fake Aegon theory.  

[JonCon's Red Beard]

First, what Dany saw isn't  necessary what really happened in that bedroom between Rhaegar and Elia. Maybe part of it was true, maybe it was all designed by the magic that created the vision. The only thing we should know is that whatever magic was, it wanted Dany to know that Rhaegar had one more child. Many people have interpreted this as Rhaegar wanting to have another child, but as far as we know, the magic is telling Dany that Rhaegar simply had a third kid not that Rhaegar pursued that third child.

Even if you believe Aegon is true or not, it's irrelevant. Aegon, dead or alive, is Rhaegar's second child: the vision doesn't contradicts that. But if Dany interprets the vision accurately she will know that there is one more Targaryen kid somewhere and Jon showing up to say he's Rhaegar's son won't be a lie.

[purple-eyes]

First, what Dany saw isn't  necessary what really happened in that bedroom between Rhaegar and Elia. Maybe part of it was true, maybe it was all designed by the magic that created the vision. The only thing we should know is that whatever magic was, it wanted Dany to know that Rhaegar had one more child. Many people have interpreted this as Rhaegar wanting to have another child, but as far as we know, the magic is telling Dany that Rhaegar simply had a third kid not that Rhaegar pursued that third child.

Even if you believe Aegon is true or not, it's irrelevant. Aegon, dead or alive, is Rhaegar's second child: the vision doesn't contradicts that. But if Dany interprets the vision accurately she will know that there is one more Targaryen kid somewhere and Jon showing up to say he's Rhaegar's son won't be a lie.

to be fair, at that moment there is no jon or dany. 

Rhaegar is talking about his own third kid for sure. 

He is basically saying that he will have one more child and he must have one more child. 

But then he was told that elia can not give him one more. 

So he left and turned to lyanna. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

to be fair, at that moment there is no jon or dany. 

Rhaegar is talking about his own third kid for sure. 

He is basically saying that he will have one more child and he must have one more child. 

But then he was told that elia can not give him one more. 

So he left and turned to lyanna. 

Nope. We have no indication that whatever Rhaegar said there is what the real Rhaegar really said. Remember Dany also saw things that didn't happen, such as Rhaego being alive. Considering this is the only moment in which we saw Rhaegar, this have made people take for granted that he really said the things he said there, "wanting another child". But we don't know. 

Visions often want to tell people something. Everything Dany sees there is something she needs to know, and she needs to know that Rhaegar had a third child. That's it. Believing Rhaegar WANTED that child or PURPOSELY impregnated a woman to have a "third head" is only our assumption.

"He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

Look at how Rhaegar says "there must be one more". He's not saying "I must be sure there is one more" or "I have to have one more" or "I need to have one more kid". That could be easily being vision!Rhaegar telling Dany that House Targaryen needs three people in order to succeed, or that's why he also clarifies that "the dragon has three heads".

And, even if it was indeed Rhaeger, he's not specifying that this "one more" has to be a kid of his. He's only saying House Targaryen needs one more "head" to be complete, and Dany, who is a Targaryen, fits.

 

 

[purple-eyes]

Nope. We have no indication that whatever Rhaegar said there is what the real Rhaegar really said. Remember Dany also saw things that didn't happen, such as Rhaego being alive. Considering this is the only moment in which we saw Rhaegar, this have made people take for granted that he really said the things he said there, "wanting another child". But we don't know. 

Visions often want to tell people something. Everything Dany sees there is something she needs to know, and she needs to know that Rhaegar had a third child. That's it. Believing Rhaegar WANTED that child or PURPOSELY impregnated a woman to have a "third head" is only our assumption.

"He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

Look at how Rhaegar says "there must be one more". He's not saying "I must be sure there is one more" or "I have to have one more" or "I need to have one more kid". That could be easily being vision!Rhaegar telling Dany that House Targaryen needs three people in order to succeed, or that's why he also clarifies that "the dragon has three heads".

And, even if it was indeed Rhaeger, he's not specifying that this "one more" has to be a kid of his. He's only saying House Targaryen needs one more "head" to be complete, and Dany, who is a Targaryen, fits.

 

 

there is no reason to believe this vision is something which did not happen like rhaego. 

They were all alive at that point. It was a true history event. 

Yes, from the whole book point, rhaegar is certainly "telling" dany there is one more (jon). 

Although this had another issue that how about the third head (tyrion)? Dany needs to find two more heads at this point. Not one. 

But for rhaegar at that moment, he surely talked with elia that he will have one more kid. He thought it is his destiny, father of three dragon heads. ( of course he was wrong, dany is mother of three real dragon heads) 

Then he found that elia can not have one more, so he turned to lyanna for this kid, who had caught his eyes before in tourney. 

 

 

 

 

[Ser Creighton]

First, what Dany saw isn't  necessary what really happened in that bedroom between Rhaegar and Elia. Maybe part of it was true, maybe it was all designed by the magic that created the vision. The only thing we should know is that whatever magic was, it wanted Dany to know that Rhaegar had one more child. Many people have interpreted this as Rhaegar wanting to have another child, but as far as we know, the magic is telling Dany that Rhaegar simply had a third kid not that Rhaegar pursued that third child.

Even if you believe Aegon is true or not, it's irrelevant. Aegon, dead or alive, is Rhaegar's second child: the vision doesn't contradicts that. But if Dany interprets the vision accurately she will know that there is one more Targaryen kid somewhere and Jon showing up to say he's Rhaegar's son won't be a lie.

Now the magic is plotting? It is, it's own entity with a mind and will and plans? So Dany is force sensitive, a true Jedi, or wait her colors are black and red, not a Jedi and Jon's colors are blue soooooo, or wait his are black and red as well. In fact he runs around in a black outfit all the time and he was burned. Oh man sith lord.

I am not so sure that the magic has a choice in what people see and don't see. On his best days I don't think Martin could write rules to make things in his world work. It's magic, it is a plot device, and the magic is Martin and Martin showed you what he wanted you to see, just like he tells you what he wants you to know.

Dany's next chapter at the Harbor tells you just what she thought of everything and how much sense it made to her. She wanted to know what was up with all the threes, why so many visions, what is the Song of Ice and Fire (She is the only character to have the series title appear in their chapters), what are the three heads of the dragon? She had no clue about any of it.

Visions are by and large symbolic, Rhaegars was a bit different and so was that of her father in that they were far more literal, and speaking. We see this with the future Martin uses symbolism because he does not want you to know but still wants to lay a clue down, but the past is different and we see this with Bran, it far more literal, the past is set "the ink is already dry" and you can see and hear what happened, not so much the future, the future changes. Dany saw the past, and the future and the near future, there is no real current present, time moves forward.

Martin planned Aegon going back to the Mummers dragon at least, and probably always, sure he only has a couple of chapters and they revolve around someone else, and he did not show up until the last book, but Martin has some plan for him or else he would not be in the books. Man Robert got Rhaegar and Stannis is getting Aegon, why is Stannis always getting short changed? His rival is still in puberty, this blue eyed king must face his Dragon, a teenager... who flips tables... and does not want to eat his vegetables. Though honestly what kind of teenage boy passed on the Lemore morning bathing ritual? Oh wait... never mind.

[The Knight of Night]

Well, either Lil Griff is indeed Aegon or what she saw doesn't mean anything because Aegon had his head smashed so he definitely wasn't the PTWP, which would mean that vision was false or just flat out wrong.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

there is no reason to believe this vision is something which did not happen like rhaego. 

There is no reason to believe the vision was something that happened either.

They were all alive at that point. It was a true history event. 

Nope, we don't know that. There is also the possibility that is half true.

Yes, from the whole book point, rhaegar is certainly "telling" dany there is one more (jon). 

Although this had another issue that how about the third head (tyrion)? Dany needs to find two more heads at this point. Not one. 

She knows there must be three Dragons around. So, yeah, could be even Stannis.

But for rhaegar at that moment, he surely talked with elia that he will have one more kid. He thought it is his destiny, father of three dragon heads. ( of course he was wrong, dany is mother of three real dragon heads) 

Nope. Rhaegar said there would be one more, but there is no indication he told Elia "we need to have one more" or "I need to have one more". As far as we know, he could have even considered Viserys to be a third head.

Then he found that elia can not have one more, so he turned to lyanna for this kid, who had caught his eyes before in tourney. 

The fact he found out Elia couldn't have any more kids didn't imply he needed another woman. Rhaegar first thought he was the Prince, then, he thought it was Aegon. If he was told Elia wouldn't give him more children, maybe he thought he wasn't meant to be the father of such children or that the three heads didn't need to be all siblings: wouldn't be the first time he realised he was wrong (and looks like he would have been right). We are just assuming this. If Rhaegar had lived a few more months he would have known that his mother was having a third child and a probably third head. 

[purple-eyes]

There is no reason to believe the vision was something that happened either.

Nope, we don't know that. There is also the possibility that is half true.

She knows there must be three Dragons around. So, yeah, could be even Stannis.

Nope. Rhaegar said there would be one more, but there is no indication he told Elia "we need to have one more" or "I need to have one more". As far as we know, he could have even considered Viserys to be a third head.

The fact he found out Elia couldn't have any more kids didn't imply he needed another woman. Rhaegar first thought he was the Prince, then, he thought it was Aegon. If he was told Elia wouldn't give him more children, maybe he thought he wasn't meant to be the father of such children or that the three heads didn't need to be all siblings: wouldn't be the first time he realised he was wrong (and looks like he would have been right). We are just assuming this. If Rhaegar had lived a few more months he would have known that his mother was having a third child and a probably third head. 

 

for the historical events, those visions did look true. Like viserys and Aerys. 

he said "they will be one more" because he believed dragon has three heads. he got two now, so he is going to have one more. It was destined to have one more, in his mind. At that moment, surely he was implying that Elia would give him one more, the third head. 

However, after he found Elia can not give him one more, so this dream would not come true. then he would try to make it come true, thus he turned to Lyanna for the third kid. 

 

 

[bent branch]

Now the magic is plotting? It is, it's own entity with a mind and will and plans? So Dany is force sensitive, a true Jedi, or wait her colors are black and red, not a Jedi and Jon's colors are blue soooooo, or wait his are black and red as well. In fact he runs around in a black outfit all the time and he was burned. Oh man sith lord.

I am not so sure that the magic has a choice in what people see and don't see. On his best days I don't think Martin could write rules to make things in his world work. It's magic, it is a plot device, and the magic is Martin and Martin showed you what he wanted you to see, just like he tells you what he wants you to know.

Dany's next chapter at the Harbor tells you just what she thought of everything and how much sense it made to her. She wanted to know what was up with all the threes, why so many visions, what is the Song of Ice and Fire (She is the only character to have the series title appear in their chapters), what are the three heads of the dragon? She had no clue about any of it.

Visions are by and large symbolic, Rhaegars was a bit different and so was that of her father in that they were far more literal, and speaking. We see this with the future Martin uses symbolism because he does not want you to know but still wants to lay a clue down, but the past is different and we see this with Bran, it far more literal, the past is set "the ink is already dry" and you can see and hear what happened, not so much the future, the future changes. Dany saw the past, and the future and the near future, there is no real current present, time moves forward.

Martin planned Aegon going back to the Mummers dragon at least, and probably always, sure he only has a couple of chapters and they revolve around someone else, and he did not show up until the last book, but Martin has some plan for him or else he would not be in the books. Man Robert got Rhaegar and Stannis is getting Aegon, why is Stannis always getting short changed? His rival is still in puberty, this blue eyed king must face his Dragon, a teenager... who flips tables... and does not want to eat his vegetables. Though honestly what kind of teenage boy passed on the Lemore morning bathing ritual? Oh wait... never mind.

Actually, Dany did get one message from the HotU very clearly (ASOS-Chapter 71):

The dragon has three heads. There are two men in the world who I can trust, if I can find them. I will not be alone then. We will be three against the world, like Aegon and his sisters.

So Dany knows there are two more Targaryens out there if she can just find them.

[Jon Snow Nothing]

There is no reason to believe the vision was something that happened either.

Nope, we don't know that. There is also the possibility that is half true.

She knows there must be three Dragons around. So, yeah, could be even Stannis.

Nope. Rhaegar said there would be one more, but there is no indication he told Elia "we need to have one more" or "I need to have one more". As far as we know, he could have even considered Viserys to be a third head.

The fact he found out Elia couldn't have any more kids didn't imply he needed another woman. Rhaegar first thought he was the Prince, then, he thought it was Aegon. If he was told Elia wouldn't give him more children, maybe he thought he wasn't meant to be the father of such children or that the three heads didn't need to be all siblings: wouldn't be the first time he realised he was wrong (and looks like he would have been right). We are just assuming this. If Rhaegar had lived a few more months he would have known that his mother was having a third child and a probably third head. 

 

I was going to reply the exact thing!

The "heads" didn't need to be brothers and sisters.

The reason most people think Aegon is fake, among other things, is the involvement of Illyrio and Varys (very suspicious) and the boy looks and act too young to be Aegon.

 

[purple-eyes]

 

Actually, Dany did get one message from the HotU very clearly (ASOS-Chapter 71):

So Dany knows there are two more Targaryens out there if she can just find them.

not necessarily targaryens, I guess. 

I do doubt if GRRM will make tyrion a targ. 

[bent branch]

not necessarily targaryens, I guess. 

I do doubt if GRRM will make tyrion a targ. 

I think they do have to be Targaryens to be a head of the dragon. I know there is a lot of resistance to this idea, but I think it is clear there must be three Targaryens of some type to make three heads because Targaryens are the dragons.

[Lord Varys]

There is pretty good evidence that Dany's vision of Rhaegar is actually a true vision from the past considering the fact that the other concrete vision from the past - Aerys II talking to Rossart about the burning of KL - was confirmed to be accurate by Jaime's memory. The man remembers the same words Dany heard in the vision almost verbatim.

Dany feeling/thinking that Rhaegar is looking at her in the vision is interpretation but may be essentially accurate. After all, if Tyrion and Jon Snow are the other two dragon heads, she'll turn out to be the third in any case, at least in the sense that she was the one who was born last.

Aegon as a dragon head or the promised prince certainly is a possibility, but as a of yet merely Rhaegar's interpretation. It doesn't have to be accurate. After all, the man once believed he was the promised savior, but eventually changed his mind.

By the way: There is no proof that Rhaegar ever thought Princess Rhaenys was a dragon head. He could have thought his own younger brother, Prince Viserys, was the other heads besides Aegon. In light of the fact that Maester Aemon reveals to Sam that apparently no one ever thought to look for a girl as the promised prince, there is little reason to assume that anyone would consider a girl to be important in this whole prophecy business.

Especially in light of Kevan remembering that Rhaegar wanted sons.

[purple-eyes]

I think they do have to be Targaryens to be a head of the dragon. I know there is a lot of resistance to this idea, but I think it is clear there must be three Targaryens of some type to make three heads because Targaryens are the dragons.

yeah, but the show basically provided zero clue for tyrion to be aerys's bastard. 

If this is so important, we will know something from the show. 

 

 

[Lord Varys]

yeah, but the show basically provided zero clue for tyrion to be aerys's bastard. 

If this is so important, we will know something from the show.

Keep the show out of it, it completely scrapped the whole prophecy angle, and may therefore take a completely different take on the whole thing.

[Beorn Snow]

Prophecies aren´t fullfilled the way we expect them to be.

And frankly I don´t know if they will be fullfilled at all, and whether I should care.

[Ser Creighton]

 

Actually, Dany did get one message from the HotU very clearly (ASOS-Chapter 71):

So Dany knows there are two more Targaryens out there if she can just find them.

Well very possibly and more than likely but she is assuming there, it's nothing she fully understood, Jorah mentioned the sigil of her house and Aegon and his sisters. So Dany assumes that it must be something along those lines, and she may be right. But again it is a guess on her part, as is weather she can trust them or not. It is also designed to continue the themes that Dany often feels alone and like she can't trust anyone on a personal level, her desire for family.