Heresy Project X+Y=J: Robert + Lyanna

[wolfmaid7]

Arighty then its time for another essay in the series we are almost done one more to go and then a special essay by Feather and then the reflections thread.

 

""R"'+L =J

By  Wolfmaid7

 it was plainly a tomcat, yet the Sealord said 'her,' and that is what the others saw. Are you hearing?"

Arya thought about it. "You saw what was there."

“Opening your eyes is all that is needing. The heart lies and the head plays tricks with us, but the eyes see true. Look with your eyes. Hear with your ears. Taste with your mouth. Smell with your nose. Feel with your skin. Then comes the thinking, afterward, and in that way knowing the truth. Syrio Florel”

 

Syrio’s lesson to Arya is an important one to keep in mind when reading this series. It indicates how much of GRRM’s story focuses on observation and perception. What people see and why they see it determines what conclusion they draw. “We see the world not as it is, but as we wish it to be, or as we were conditioned to see it (Stephen Corey).” This is not only true of the characters in the story but of readers as well. This is no fairy tale or a Grimm tale but a realistic one which requires us to look a little deeper and pass the surface when it comes to human behavior and what we are being told and why.

As readers we sometimes ask ourselves the right questions  kind of i.e. ‘Why hasn't Ned thought of Rheagar in years if he’s Jon’s father’ when the question should be “has Ned ever thought and or talked about anyone in particular to Jon?” And moreover, how has GRRM constructed the narrative to convey this if it’s there? It’s a good question because deep down we know it’s unrealistic that Ned would be able to keep Jon’s father out of his thoughts, let alone FOR YEARS. That’s why we asked the question and knowing that we the readers aren’t clairvoyant absent Weirnet and glass candles, GRRM gives us the answers to the questions that we will be prone to ask in the text or he leaves the clues to lead us there. So what is the answer?

“The king was a great disappointment to Jon. His father had talked of him often: the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, the fiercest warrior of the realm, a giant among princes.”

 

At times GRRM intentionally in certain characers first pov chooses  to give us revelations about that characters future arch and connections to the speaker. Jon, is the only one of the Stark kids whom Ned talked of Robert to and quite a bit that we are privy to. We see this method in the “story” content the author chooses to show us of Ned’s “fireside musings” with Bran. The stories that Bran calls to mind for instance, is intimately connected to his future arch.

“He seemed not at all the man who would sit before the fire in the evening and talk softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest (Bran 1).”

 

This is not to say it was the only story Ned told Bran or that Bran was alone when he told it, but it’s what the author chose to have Bran alone convey.And with subsequent character POVs we see an increase in thses contents as the connection gets frequent and stronger. Likewise, Jon tells of Ned speaking about Robert to him and as we continue reading one realizes a lot of info dumps about Robert occurs in Jon’s chapters, more than any other prospect and together they are mentioned in other POVs together a fair amount of time. I shit you not check it out. But like Bran these aren't radom;the purpose it seems from a narrative view is to give insight about Robert to Jon but also to establish that there are links between them. We start with what Ned tells him, what he observes and what others tell him about Robert.How he was,is and how he’s changed.

But think about this.Why tell Jon stories about Robert's greatest achievement,exhalting Robert before Jon's eyes when you (Ned) are suppose to be his father? Don't forget Ned kicked ass during RR so shouldn't the stories be Ned centric instead of  Robert centric? It begins to make sense as to why; unable (by choice or promise) to tell the truth Ned did the next best thing. He told of Robert’s badassary to Jon, talking Robert up to him above everyone one else, ALL PRINCES( For those of you missing it,that includes Rhaegar as well). We also get Jon speaking to Benjen about Ned taking Robert to the crypts. So the author establishes Jon’s familiarity with a connection between Robert and Lyanna which is important on a personal level. Robert is not far removed from Jon. He’s better positioned to be identifiable to Jon as much as Rhaegar is far removed from him, but connected and identifiable to Dany for example.

So, you may have guessed by now that this theory postulates that Robert and Lyanna were Jon’s parents. This essay will delve into clues, symbolism, parallels, themes, events before and during Harrenthall that connects Robert and Lyanna romantically, Jon to both Robert and Lyanna and ultimately connecting all three. I apologize in advance, but the ToJ isn’t going to be discussed in this essay, it’s not going to tell us who Jon’s parents are imo from the clues i gathered.

                                                                  Where misconceptions begin ………….and should end

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “<snip>, but he assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”--GoT, pg. 379.

 

We could all agree that the above quote indicates that Lyanna had concerns about Bob’s ability to be faithful regardless of love. Noteworthy though is her familiarity with him, for she addresses him not as “Robert Baratheon” but “Robert” so he was no stranger to her. We should also note when the timing of this conversation took place; which was the night Lyanna found out she was to wed Robert. So consider, Robert and Lyanna knew each other prior to the arrangement and additionally, they were betrothed for a while before Lya went missing.

The WB pg.127 indicates that Robert and Lyanna had been “long” betrothed so there was time enough for this concern about Robert’s fidelity to be proven, or not.Furthermore this notion that Lyanna didn’t want the marriage is baseless.Nothing in her statement indicated this. She expressed a  belief,that Robert couldn't keep docking his cock in one port.This belief would be normal given Robert's past but I want you all to consider this when thinking about if Lyanna wanted the marriage or not. GRRM has showed us characters time and time again expressing not wanting a marriage. Sansa; Dany,Brandon,Alys all voiced not wanting to get married.It would be nothing and was for them to say that.Yet, Lyanna didn't .Her words didn't even go there in her talk with Ned.It was focused on one thing.

                                                                                                    The politics of marriage

GRRM has showed us outcomes of several arranged marriages in this series. E.g. Cat and Ned grew to love each other, when initially they didn’t. Dany and Drogo grew in love. Then we have Robert and Cersei, who were disastrous. No matter the outcome, all of these couples hooked up to secure alliances. It was expected of them and they understood the stakes involved. From the main text and the World book, we know alliances were made through;BraCat ,JoLys and RoLya.A power block on the rise.

"The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though ... there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together ... but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southern ambitions <snip> ADWD Chpt 38.

 

Brandon the wild wolf despite how he felt about Barbrey was going to marry Cat. Like him Lyanna would know how important this alliance was to her family and her place in securing it as she was taught.

The take away from this: Duty to family, and if you’re lucky you just might grow in love. All this brings me to these two quotes from GRRM.

“And then there are some things that just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with  the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy………”

 

“And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the middle Ages<snip>they have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know. I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.”

 

GRRM has raised an important issue here about class structure and expectations of those who live in it. We also know that GRRM is known for playing with roles be it gender and or status to get a point across. In this case Lyanna is the stable boy and the peasant girl. She is nobility yes, royalty no and her status compared to Rhaegar is less.If we take GRRM's quotes contexually in conjuction with the below quotes there's no indication from Robert and Ned that Lyanna and Robert weren’t going to get married had she not died. Meaning Ned’s internal thought and even Robert’s words didn’t betray that they thought she did anything that put a stop to her marriage and in effect halting two others.

Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride. (AGOT,Ned).

“We were meant to rule together. If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood.”

Sum: Given GRRM’s quotes, along with the social, political and emotional stakes and ideologies involved in Westeros it’s unlikely that Lya bolted from her betrothal to Robert for Rhaegar. And it’s just as unlikely that Rhaegar ran off with or abducted her.

                                                                                                                A perfect match

One of the reasons Robert is dismissed as being Jon’s father is the image of Robert as this drunk, fat womanizer. Lyanna could never love him “for who could ever love a beast.” People forget that Robert, miles from ever having been perfect was a far cry from the man he’d become.

“I remember Robert as he was the day he took the throne, every inch a king," he said quietly. "A thousand other women might have loved him with all their hearts. What did he do to make you hate him so?"

 

“Sweet one,” her father said gently, “listen to me. When you’re old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord whose worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong.

 

Note: The man Ned is describing as the perfect match for Sansa has all of Robert’s good qualities.Robert was a catch, to quote Ned “muscled like a maiden’s fantasy“ a gentle giant with a big heart.If fidelity wasn't an issue and it wasn’t, sparks would fly.Robert and Lyanna had a lot in common even down to their personalities.

About Lyanna:

"'You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave. "Ned to Arya (I 215).

“The crowning of the Stark girl who by all accounts was a wild and boyish thing…… (WB, pg137).

“He [Brandon] loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. ADWD chpt 38.

 “That evening there was to be a feast in Harrenhal, to mark the opening of the tourney, and the she-wolf insisted that the lad attend. He was of high birth, with as much a right to a place on the bench as any other man. She was not easy to refuse…..”Bran,asos

 

About Robert:

“He (Ned) was no Jon Arryn, to curb the wildness of his king and teach him wisdom. Robert would do what he pleased, as he always had, and nothing Ned could say or do would change that (AGOT,Ned.Chp 12).”

“He’s only a boy,” Ned said awkwardly. He had small liking for Prince Joffrey, but he could hear the pain in Robert’s voice. “Have you forgotten how wild you were at his age?” Agot Ned.”

“I am heartily sick of secrets and squabbles and matters of state, Ned. It's all as tedious as counting coppers. Come, let's ride, you used to know how. I want to feel the wind in my hair again." He kicked his horse back into motion and galloped up over the barrow, raining earth down behind him (AGOT,Ned Chpt 12).

“Gods," he swore, laughing, “It feels good to get out and ride the way a man was meant to ride! I swear, Ned, this creeping along is enough to drive a man mad." He had never been a patient man, Robert Baratheon AGOT,Ned,chpt 12).”

“His leg was throbbing so badly he was almost blind with pain. Or perhaps it was grief that fogged his eyes. He lowered himself to the bed, beside his friend. “Why do you always have to be so headstrong? agot?”

 

 

                                                   Clues to an intimate relationship between Robert and Lyanna  

 Robert and Ned wouldn’t be dead for a while,so its fortunate for us we have a lot of firsthand information something no other prospect gives.What was said,done etc with regard to Lyanna and or Robert is not down to opnion and non inside information.It can be corroberated by us the readers.

    1.       Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all hisheart.Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride. (AGOT,Ned).

     2..       “He’s still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen year old.”  How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna AGOT, Bran, Pg.83……Snap

    3.       "We both know your wedding was a mummer's farce. A year ago you were scheming to make the girl one of Robert's whores.""A year ago I was scheming to make the girl Robert's queen,"

    4.  Renly had seemed anxious to know if the girl reminded him of anyone, and when Ned had no answer but a shrug, he had seemed disappointed. The maid was Loras Tyrell's sister Margaery, he'd confessed, but there were those who said she looked like Lyanna. "No," Ned had told him, bemused.”

 

We have actual information directly attesting to Robert’s feelings for Lyanna.We know he loved her and to try and argue against that at this point is being uneccessarily difficult.It is to Robert's actions and words among other things we must look to decipher the extent of any hypothetical relationship.

This offer did surprise him. “Sansa is only eleven.” Robert waved an impatient hand. “Old enough for betrothal. The marriage can wait a few years.” The king smiled

I added the visual smiley to show what that looked like as if to say the marriage itself isn't going to stop anything if its going to happen Ned.And one way or the other that would be right as we will see later down with what was going to happen had Sansa not been rescued.Moving on.

     “The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown ... it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe ... and mine again, as she was meant to be.”

 

Pay attention to how Robert refers to getting Lya back safe “mine again” The idea of “mine” comes up a couple of times in this series and is one of endearment that speaks of emotional and or physical intimacy i.e.

“She pushed him back against the trunk of a tree and kissed him, full on the lips right there in the midst of the ragged column. <Snip>. He kissed her back despite all that. When they finally broke apart, Ygritte was flushed. "You're mine," she whispered. "Mine, as I'm yours.”

 

“He is mine.” She rose to her feet. “They all tried to take him from me. My lord father, my husband, your mother…Catelyn most of all. She liked to kiss my Petyr too, oh yes she did (asos,Sansa).

 

So we moved from information given to us first hand and even looked at Robert's behavior as and indicator as to where his relationship lay and the above implies that is wasn't one-sided.Can that case be made stronger though?

 

       “She was more beautiful than that,” the king said after a silence. His eyes lingered on Lyanna’s face, as if he could will her back to life. <Snip> “Ah, damn it, Ned, did you have to bury her in a place like this?” His voice was hoarse with remembered grief.”<Snip>. “The king touched her cheek, his fingers brushing across the rough stone as gently as if it were living flesh (”Ned agot)."

 

I would say yes.It explains the behavior exhibited by Robert toward the statue told to us from Ned's pov and all these quotes show something that is not seen by any other prospect no matter much you go through the text……physical and emotional INTIMACY.

 

         “And Cersei... I have Jon Arryn to thank for her. I had no wish to marry after Lyanna was taken from me, but Jon said the realm needed an heir.”

 

         “Her {Cersei’s} eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, <snip>. “The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.”Ned thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep.—Ned,GoT, pg. 480.------

 

 

This quote given to us by Cersie is an interesting one and the arguement can be made that Robert could be grieving for the physically unrealized when it comes to Lyanna, which is the weakest of the arguments given the context and intensity, or he could have been reenacting what he did with Lyanna by calling out her name in bed screwing Cersie, too drunk to realize it wasn’t her.I hope you all see it though ?  What prompted Ned thinking about Lyanna,pale blue roses and wanting to weep....Robert having sex with "Lyanna"

 

 Let’s now look at another quote and its connotation.

 

 “Oh, Cersei is lovely to look at, truly, but cold . . . the way she guards her cunt, you'd think she had all the gold of Casterly Rock between her legs."

 

What's good about Robert is that we know a lot about him and who he was via his intimates and what we have seen ourselves.Its been established that Robert isn't use to being denied.So its not a shock that he seems taken aback by Cersie withholding pussy.But Robert’s reaction itself is a clue ,Cersie was the only woman to be selfish with her "Punani", which in itself is a hint that Lyanna “didn’t guard her cunt from Robert” she wasn't cold towards him,which brings me to the only statement made by Lyanna concerning Robert. The ultimate tidbit.

 

 “Robert will never keep to one bed,” It’s something that got overlooked the moment Lya uttered those famous words,and it got turned into she didn’t love Robert or want to marry him none of which is even hinted at. From her statement comes the realization, think about it now  that Lyanna knew she would have to and was willing to sleep with Robert from the get go…..Say wuh Wolfmaid are you serious? Keep in mind that Robert has been sexually active for a while and Lyanna knows that, do you think having that info she expected Robert to go without until they got married?Think about the little smile he gave Ned as well. Seriously! Did Robert abstain from sex after their betrothal, OR was he in fact “keeping to one bed-“Lya’s and he didn't have to abstain.From her conversation with Ned she was already putting that on the table. Robert could only keep to one bed if Lyanna was offering hers up for him.Not at some "appropriate time" set by others, look at what Ned tells her in the context of her statement and the entire conversation:

"I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter,...

So was there stipulation by Lyanna as to  when Robert would be keeping to one bed? No,which is part of the point sex would occur when it occurs whether they were married or just bethored .Additionally, Robert having a child before wouldn't be a big deal to Lyanna if she had no feelings for him.How many women have become step mothers to children of Lords in Westeros and have no gripe. Robert having a child with "some girl" affected her a bit more than it should.Lyanna was a tad jealous he had been with some girl and knocked her up.A little territorial are we?

As a comparison we see this with Arya when it came to Gendry:

Arya was taken aback by the fury in his voice. <snip>. "Go away. I want to drink this wine in peace. Then maybe I'll go find that black-haired girl and ring her bell for her."

"But . . . "

"I said, go away. M'lady."

Arya whirled and left him there. A stupid bullheaded bastard boy, that's all he is. He could ring all the bells he wanted, it was nothing to her.

Righhhht Arya it was nothing to you.

So,knowing Robert's appetite as Lyanna did,what are the odds that during the entire betrothal Robert never made "the move?" He had sex with a 15yr old prostitute and got her preggers and he was an out of shape grown ass man at that time.Robert wasn't going to suffer from blue balls and Lyanna already knew ,accepted and was willing when it came to married or not that was part of the deal.Therefore,what do we think would happen given the variables of a willing girl and a virile male?

The Coat of Arms worth a thousand words.

Remember I brought up paying attention to who GRRM chooses to convey info verbally or visually through? Let’s look at, IMO a set up and reveal by the author that begins in an Arya and Jon conversation. Keep in mind the TKOTLT story with this part. I think some good evidence has been put forth already that Lyanna is TKOTLT so i won't press that.

“Perhaps you should wed Tully to Stark in your arms. A wolf with a fish in its mouth “That made her laugh. “Besides if a girl can’t fight why should she have a coat of arms?” Jon to Arya---Agot.

 

“he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. “Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her( Arya,agot).

 

But then they heard a roar. 'That's my father's man you're kicking,' howled the she-wolf."

 

"A wolf on four legs, or two?”. “Two," said Meera. "The she-wolf laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all.

 

“But the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face (asos,Bran).”

 

“He (Robert) laughed uproariously, and even Ned smiled, remembering. This was the boy he had grown up with, he thought; this was the Robert Baratheon he'd known and loved.”

 

“Gods," he swore, laughing, “It feels good to get out and ride the way a man was meant to ride! (AGOT,Ned Chpt 12).”

 

“Robert ... He is in my dreams as well. Laughing. Drinking. Boasting. Those were the things he was best at. Those, and fighting. (Stannis about Robert).

 

“He heard his laughter in the dark, saw his eyes, blue and clear as mountain lakes. “Look at us, Ned," Robert said. "Gods, how did we come to this?"Agot,Ned ,Chpt 58.

 

“Is that any way to speak to your King? He let go, his laughter sudden as a storm. ”Ah danm you Ned….”

 

“Robert succeeded him as Lord of Storm’s End and grew to be one of the finest Knight’s in the Seven Kingdom………-a warrior so strong and fearless that many hailed him the Laughing Storm reborn WB,pg,230.

 

“The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said ... but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots,<snip> ASOS,Jon.

 

“I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father (AGOT, Ned, pg.43).

 

Sum: Lyanna wed what was well known and loved about Robert (his laughter) to what signified home (Weirwood heart tree) on her shield.If we peel back the the onion the picture emerges that there was mutual feelings between Robert and Lyanna and it wasn't this crazy epic love at firstsight BS.It was probably the most awkward thing ever given how they started out.....They knew each other through Ned was his best friend and her brother.

                                                        Mythic parallel and theme: Connections Robert, Lyanna and Jon.

Sex and love sounds good but it doesn't neccessarily mean pregnancy will occur but so this is where identifying a link will give credence to them having a baby.

"The way the world is made. The truth is all around you, plain to behold. The night is dark and full of terrors, the day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good." She took a step toward him. "Death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere, the war……. "The war, “she affirmed……

 

“There is two onion Knight Not seven, not one, not a hundred or a thousand. Two. The war has been waged since time began (ASOS,Davos Chpt 25)."  

 

GRRM incorporated several world mythologies in his story and some of these myths overlap in the lives of some of the characters but sometimes we get a gem that is very unique to certain characters and events. One such myth has very strong allusions that Jon’s parents are Robert and Lyanna.This isn't an exact match down to evey detail.It can't be there's stuff that happenes in real that isn't even there and other variations and diversions are present but the gist is still there and fits perfectly.

We look toward a ritual that was recreated by the author at Harrenhal. In many pagan traditions, Beltane the third holiday on the “wheel of the year” is a major fertility festival between spring and summer. Certain characters in this story are acting out or have acted out the Wheel of the Year as well as an important ritual called “The grand rite” aka “the sacred marriage”. Central to the Beltane ritual are two figures. The Horned god,a solar god whose dual aspect Oak(e.g. Cernunnous,Green man) and Holly king(e.g Corn king,Santa Claus) rules summer and winter respectively. In some traditions he is one person with two parts to his nature. He recieves a mortal wound,dies and is born again with the help of the goddess to continue the cycle. In other traditions the two aspects are brothers that are in an eternal war and they are killed in their turn to indicate which half of the year will be dominant and which brother is ruling. The Horned god is a natural hunter, warrior, fertile, virile and wild. He is life, death and rebirth.The masculine energy at the feast and is machismo personified. He has the honor of mating with the goddess who is also a dual deity floral/winter. At the “grand rite” couples hooking up is common but it is the above coupling that is important because from their union the horned god (Oak +Holly) is conceived anew birthed and hidden until the fullness of time has come for him to emerge.

The Players and how they line up                                                               

The above is a summary of Beltane, a snap shot of what goes on, who’s important. So how does that relate this story?Well GRRM has labled our players and the event for us.

Horned god: “He found himself thinking of Robert more and more. <Snip> tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his Warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god. Agot,Ned,Chpt 58.”

 

“Robert? Robert was hunting. That was his custom. Whenever my time was near, my royal husband would flee to the trees with his huntsmen and hounds. When he returned he would present me with some pelts or a stag’s head, and I would present him with a baby.”

 

 “He laughed and slapped his own ample stomach a thump. “And the girls, Ned!” he exclaimed, his eyes sparkling.”

 

Here George has given us the imagery of Robert as both aspect of the Oak and Holly.We get the bad ass  horned warrior in his youth and the jolly fat man with sparking eyes and rosy cheeks..bascally Santa

The goddess: “The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. ACOK Theon.

 

“”Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him.”Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

 

The maiden crowned with a halo of flowers is the typical imagery for the goddess at Beltane and this is what Lyanna represents.

A Wicker Man: “Seventeen and new to knighthood, Rhaegar Targaryen had worn black plate over golden ring mail when he cantered onto the lists. Long streamers of red and gold and orange silk had floated behind his helm, like flames. AFFC,Cersie.

 

“The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him”

 

The Wicker man a product of modern paganism based off *ehem* sketchy origin (blood sacrifice) but in a ritualistic context he is the working of sympathetic magic. The purpose is to change what the effigy represents and hinder its power. Both Rhaegar and Aerys would fit the Wicker man archetype.They represent an era,order, system that needed to be changed and was with their deaths.

"A maying"( lovers going off at Beltane to have sex): “There’s nothing like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, words or kisses maybe more, but where’s the harm in that Spring had come-Harwin to Arya-(ASOS,Arya)

 

"Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. (Meera Reed).

 

Good times, good wine, ceremony, pageantry,some fighting  and sex.

" And when the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark daughter of the Lord of Winterfell,the queen of love and beauty ,placing the garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance,......"

If you look a smidge deeper than the superficial belief that lance equates penis,lance dropping laurel in Lyanna's lap means sex and baby; the crowning itself is another representation in the Beltane ritual.If you identified Rhaegar's lance with the laurel dangling as a symbolic representation for the Maypole then you are correct.And it to is also part of the Beltane dialogue that signifies that the sacred marriage has happened the horned god and goddess have mated.This goes had in hand with what i presented before as proof that Lyanna and Robert were intimately involved.I would also like to point out an interesting fact of all the houses the Baratheon's via the female line of Elanai are the only ones to said to come from the line of gods.

                                                                                                              Jon Snow     thou art the babe!!

“Jon remained standing. “It’s my father, isn’t it?” The Old Bear tapped the letter with a finger. “Your father and the king,” he rumbled.”

 

 Going back to “Beltane at Harrenhal.”Based on the roles GRRM has placed everyone in, Lyanna and Robert did have a son that continues in the same arch of the horned gods Oak and Holly King archetype Ned’s chapter when Robert dies and Jon chapter when he gets the news flows directly into after each other.I put Robert's death scene because its the image of him as the Green man fallen that's important.Here's a couple of quotes to show the progression and passing of the torch so to speak.

“This is not Winterfell', he told him as he cut his meat with fork and dagger. ‘On the Wall, a man gets only what he earns. You're no ranger, Jon, only a green boy with the smell of summer still on you.”

 

The king still wore his boots. Ned could see dried mud and blades of grass clinging to the leather where Robert’s feet stuck out beneath the blanket that covered him a green doublet lay on the floor, slashed open and discarded, the cloth crusted with red-brown stains. The room smelled of smoke and blood and death.

 

“He would play the game to its conclusion. He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont's raven muttered across the room. "Corn,” the bird said, and, "King, “and, "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow.” That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall.

 

In addition to the mythical connection between Jon Lya and Robert, let’s look at another visual by GRRM that further 

“Tell him that when you see him, milord, as it. . . as it please you (meaning the choice was Ned’s to tell the king about Barra).Tell him how beautiful she is.”

 

“I will,” Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.<snip>She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? “Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert’s bastards?”

 

“Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then…”(GOT,Ned 1).

 

So follow me here : A young girl mirroring Lyanna holding Robert’s bastard extracting a promise from Ned. I mean sometimes its in our faces.

                                                                                             Parallels and connections Jon and Robert

Echoes and parallels between comparative subjects are best made with similar experiences and choices that are actually present vs what we think may have happened and there are a lot of comparative echoes of Robert and Jon’s experiences and nature.

1.”He swallowed nervously and said, “Jon, could there be honor in a lie, if it were told for a … a good purpose?”

 

“It would depend on the lie and the purpose, I suppose.” Jon looked at Sam. “I wouldn’t advise it. You’re not made to lie, Sam.”----Jon Snow to Sam Tarly

 

2.“Robert slapped Ned on the back.”Ah, say that I'm a better king than Aerys and be done with it. You never could lie for love nor honor, Ned Stark. -----Robert Baratheon to Ned Stark

 

-          Here we have Jon and Robert speaking to their best friends on honor, lies and how seemingly horrible they are at lying. We know that Ned and Sam kept something from their pals.

 

3.“We all know what my brother would do. Robert would gallop up to the gates of Winterfell alone, break them with his Warhammer, and ride through the rubble to slay Roose Bolton with his left hand and the Bastard with his right…..”

 

4. “This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words <snip>.“The Night’s Watch will make for Hardhome. I ride to Winterfell alone…….. I have my swords, thought Jon Snow, and we are coming for you, Bastard.”

 

-          Well what Robert would have done, is what Jon was on his way to doing before he got shanked.

 

5."I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves."

 

6. ” Jon took the letter back. “Why would he help us now? <Snip> “Well,” said Sam, “That would bring scorn down upon House Lannister.” “It’s death and destruction I want to bring down upon House Lannister, not scorn.” Jon lifted up the letter. (Jon to Sam affc.)

 

-          Robert and Jon emotionally go too far there thoughts of revenge aren’t singular.

 

7.“It was the king's voice that put an end to it . . . the king's voice and twenty swords. Jon Arryn had told them that a commander needs a good battlefield voice, and Robert had proved the truth of that on the Trident. He used that voice now. "STOP THIS MADNESS," he boomed, "IN THE NAME OF YOUR KING!"

 

8.“He has a lord’s voice, Jon thought. His father had always said that in battle a captain’s lungs were as important as his sword arm. “It does not matter how brave or brilliant a man is, if his commands cannot be heard,”

 

“The wall will stop them," Jon heard himself say. He turned and said it again louder. "The wall will stop them. <snip> they cannot pass. THEY CANNOT PASS!"

 

-          Linked by the use of the same lessons thought by Arryn and its execution.Robert used that battle commander's voice on the Trident.Jon used it on the Wall.

 

9.“there was no one to stop Jon drinking as much as he had a thirst for to the raucous delight of the youths around him, who urged him on every time he drained a glass. They were fine company, and Jon relished the stories they were telling, tales of battle and bedding and the hunt.”

 

10.“After all had been seated, toasts were made, thanks were given and returned, and then the feasting began. Jon had started drinking then, and he had not stopped.”

 

“He said little, looking out over the hall with hooded eyes, seeing nothing. Two seats away, the king had been drinking heavily all night. His broad face was flushed behind his great black beard. He made many a toast, laughed loudly at every jest, and attacked each dish like a starving man,”(agat,Jon 1).

 

-          This is a bit of visual parallelism going on here and some mirroring with Jon making an observation about Robert’s state and actions while being in said state and doing the same thing himself.

 

1.“I’ve watched you fight. It’s not training with you. Put a good edge on your sword, and they’d be dead meat; you know it, I know it, they know it (Jon,AGOT).”    

 

2.“The song of steel on steel woke a hunger in Jon. It reminded him of warmer, simpler days, when he had been a boy at Winterfell matching blades with Robb….(Jon ADWD).”

 

3.“In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. "Jon, enough," Halder was shouting, "he's down, you disarmed him. Enough!"

 

4.He (Rhaegar) never liked the song of swords the way Robert did or Jamie Lannister (Dany,acok)”

 

5.“Seven hells Ned I want to hit someone.”Robert to Ned Agot.

 

6.He remembered Brandon’s laughter, and Robert’s berserk valor in the melee, the way he laughed as he unhorsed men left and right.”

 

-          What do we fans label Jon? The Beserker,now we know where he gets it from.

 

Parallels and connections Jon and Lyanna

“Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away.”

 

“Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride.”

 

 “They shoved him down every time he tried to rise, and kicked him when he curled up on the ground. But then they heard a roar. 'That's my father's man you're kicking,' howled the she-wolf."<Snip>"The she-wolf laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all.”

 

“………..Jon took a step forward…….”.Halder stop”. The Bastard wishes to defend his lady love, so we shall make an exercise of it. Rat, Pimple, help our Stone Head here.” Rast and Albett moved to join Halder. “Three of you ought to be sufficient to make Lady Piggy squeal. All you need do is get past the Bastard.” “Stay behind me,” Jon said to the fat boy.”

Why the secrecy if he’s Robert’s bastard?

“Still, she was struck again by how strangely men behaved when it came to their bastards. Ned had always been fiercely protective of Jon,….”

 

So what if he’s Robert’s bastard the man has several of them .Well, for any lord, lady, father, uncle ambitious for a daughter, niece to be Robert’s new bride Jon would be a threat if anyone knew including Robert because it is highly likely he would want him at court. In this case it would have been the Lannisters who would feel threatened if Jon were legitimized.The way the narrative works the Lannisters( Cersie) is still a threat to all Robert's children.

“Once, after that sorry business with the cat, he (Robert) had made some noises about bringing some baseborn daughter of his to court. “Do as you please," she'd told him, "but you may find that the city is not a healthy place for a growing girl.”(AFFC,Cersie).

 

“There was another bastard, a boy (Gendry), older. I took steps to see him removed from harm's way...but I confess, I never dreamed the babe would be at risk. A base born girl, less than a year old, with a whore for a mother, what threat could she pose?” "She was Robert’s that was enough for Cersei it would seem (Tyrion&Varys ACOK).

 

 “Cersei could not have been pleased by her lord husband's by-blows, yet in the end it mattered little whether the king had one bastard or a hundred. Law and custom gave the baseborn few rights. Gendry,  the girl in the Vale, the boy at Storm's End, none of them could threaten Robert's trueborn children.”

 

“He gave Ned a sideways glance. “I’ve also heard whispers that Robert got a pair of twins on a serving wench at Casterly Rock, three years ago when he went west for Lord Tywin's tourney. Cersei had the babes killed, and sold the mother to a passing slaver. Too much an affront to Lannister pride, that close to home."

 

“He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war…………. You are no Tywin Lannister, to slaughter innocents."

 

“Your Robert got me with child once,” she said, her voice thick with contempt. “My brother found a woman to cleanse me .AGOT---Cersie to Ned.

 

“Catelyn Tully was a mouse, or she would have smothered this Jon Snow in his cradle. Instead, she's left the filthy task to me (AFFC Cersie).”

 

And the way the narrative works it’s still the Lannisters in the form of Cersie whose kids aren’t Robert’s.

 

 In addition to possible physical harm we have to think about the stigma. Legitimized or not the stain of bastardry remains as well as the belief about them. Except this would be throughout the realm.

“The old High Septon told my father that king's laws are one thing, and the laws of the gods another. Trueborn children are made in a marriage bed and blessed by the Father and the Mother, but bastards are born of lust and weakness, he said. King Aegon decreed that his bastards were not bastards, but he could not change their nature. The High Septon said all bastards are born to betrayal”---Egg to Dunk.

 

“Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said; their nature was wanton and treacherous. Once Jon had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father he could as good a true son as Robb Stark.” ---Jon Snow.

 

 “You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard’s name . . . you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned (AGOT,Cat).

 

“If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? Ned.”

 

Sum: Jon’s life and emotional well-being would have been at risk if Robert or anyone knew.Robert would want him at court putting him in harm’s way and the stigma ascribed to him as a bastard would be worse at court. I think Lyanna’s promises did have to do with Jon though it was probably general i.e. “raise and protect my son as if he was your own. “But it was actually Ned who decided what what the fulfilment of that looked like

 

Timelines and nameday throwaways

And now we come to it, the seeming spoke in the wheel ,the one thing when any prospect for Jon’s father is brought up they are immediately met with nope the timeline is wrong.I will state that i don't think the popular view is correct because it was derived from information that is incorrect.First,GRRM in his wisdom gave us sound sage advice below because it is in the story and narrative that the answers will be found without hurting heads trying to calculate every bit of movement which is flawed in its subjective interpretation.

“The reason I am never specific about dates and distances is precisely so that people won't sit down and do this sort of thing. My suggestion would be to put away the ruler and the stopwatch, and just enjoy the story.—GRRM” www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Chronology_and_Distances

 

Conventional thinking puts Jon’s birth 1 month give or take of the sack of KL (Citadel). I however believe that Jon is actually older than he or we think he is because the narrative supports it..He was veiwed and treated as younger than Robb because it was easier for everyone to think that way given Cat and Robb status. The social beliefs created an environment for this subterfuge to be successful but when you take all the bits together one gets the entire picture that Ned has been lying by omission and just letting people draw their own conclusions without giving anything away.

“And yet there was that one time . . . what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, <snip>. Yours was . . . Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"…… She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like . . . "

 

“I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men. “Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn.""I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child.(Ned,agot”)

 

“He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew…

 

“He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence (agot,Cat.Chpt 6).”

 

With these quotes we already see people’s perception is off. Cat it seems arrived at her own conclusions regarding when Ned had his moment and Ned never validated or refuted what she thought. Just like he never validated or refuted Cersie’s accusation. His conversation with Robert also adds nothing as to when Jon was conceived or born except that he dishonored himself and Cat in the sight of gods and men and that has more to do with him calling Jon his son for all to see. So how does one logically pin point when Jon was born from this.Ohhhh yes the "big tamale" The “major evidence” used to support Jon being born 1 month or so in relation to the Sack.So lets get to it then:

“I'm trying to figure out how Jon's day of birth fits in the timeline of the war, and assumed you wouldn't just tell me when he was exactly born. (Based on his answer it would seem he actually did or did he?).In his first chapter at the Wall, Jon reflects that his name day passed a fortnight before. I assume this was his 15th one. Dany's 14th name day was at the end of her chapter, on the far side of the Dothraki Sea.

 

Now, if this was after Jon's chapter -- and (apparent) name day, it could be concluded, that Jon was born more than 1 year before Dany, and at least 3 months before Queen Rhaella left King's Landing.<snip>

 

"All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.”

 

“She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. They said that storm was terrible.”

 

 Consider,the questioner's query is based on the belief that certain info is accurate.First remember GRRM himself has made Jon’s parentage a secret. Putting clues in the series, his 98 letter and his tight lipped interviews on the matter. So in light of the preceding, why would he give it away with this ssm? I don’t think he did because he knew the conclusion which was going to be drawn would be false and that’s because Dany wasn’t born when she thought.We will spend pages on this i'm sure, but my hypothesis is based on clear anomalies below.

1. Jamie’s account of the Dragonstone departure.( The cloaked woman leaving for DS in the day)

2. Visery’s account of fleeing to Dragonstone.( Midnight flight from KL,and Black sails )

3. Dany’s memories.( Lemontree,Poleboats and grasslands).

Some will believe the above are something to question and some will believe nothing is there.This is a matter again of some viewing certain things as clues to which i'll say it will be settled by GRRM.But the above are considerably more than reasonable doubt to question Dany's name day.

The Bastard contingency

So what does the narrative indicate with regards to Jon.Ned, whether he actively thought to do this or not ended up doing one of the best things he could do to maintain Jon’s secrecy and at the same time appease the more curious minds. The man denied nothing and acknowledged nothing whatever people thought and why they thought it became Jon’s cove.And we come back to what i mentioned at the start -perception v reality.Cat wanted her children’s place to be secure so she convinced herself he Jon was younger and more importantly that belief was superimposed on Jon.He believed it. 

“Take me with you when you go back to the Wall,” Jon said in a sudden rush <snip>“I am almost a man grown,” Jon protested. “I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children. “That’s true enough,” Benjen said with a downward twist of his mouth.”

 

“He’d heard it said that bastards grow up faster than other children; on the Wall, you grew up or you died.”

 

This could be used two ways, (1) explain bastard children who were older being dubbed younger to ensure they have less of an opportunity to inherit. And or cover why they are a bit more mature by turning it into a negative against them.

 We also have Jon himself doing what I’m proposing happened to him, passing off an older baby for a younger one so their is precedence. Gilly’s baby and  Dalla’s .We don’t know if they are weeks apart, months or a year that’s not important in comparison to the blinders people put on when someone in authority says “thus is the case” Jon said Monster was Aemon and so he was. No one really paid attention to how they looked physically.Why would they,too much shit was happening around them.

“Her eyes were red and puffy, but the boy was in her arms, bundled tight. Whether it was her boy or Dalla’s he could not be sure. He had only seen the two together a few times. Gilly’s boy was older, Dalla’s more robust, but they were close enough in age and size so that no one who did not know them well would be able to easily tell one from the other. Jon ADWD. 

Sum: The basis for establishing Jon's nameday cannot be used as a definiative when it in itself is most likely false.Cat's belief is one based on the preservation of her children's status.We have an entire culture and social belief that acts as a protective shield for true born from Bastards born before.Lastly,we have precedence which indicates unless you are really looking nobody gives a s**t if i'm a person in authority and i say my child is a year when he's actually 2.3mths.He's that age. I dare you to call me a liar and risk your head. 

                                                             Points of contention that will come up and counters to them

1. Jon doesn’t have black hair like the rest of Robert’s bastards nor does he have Robert's muscular built.What's up with that?

"The seed is strong, Jon Arryn had cried on his deathbed, and so it was. All those bastards, all with hair as black as night. Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago,...Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon's tome as a large and lusty lad boar with a full head of black hair. ... No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding before the coal.”

 

     A. Gendry remembers that his mom had yellow hair

     B.   Barra’s mother ….Had light red hair

    First, I will say that the phrase “the seed is strong” isn’t limited or exclusive to hair color, jaw line and broad shoulders.Ned just happened to zero in on that one trait. What is being observed by Ned and told to us is the outcome between the black hairs of Baratheons with the gold hair of the Lannisters, only. Therefore its incorrect to exclude Jon based on his dark brown hair. Those of you familiar with genetics should get this.And i will add this we get no description of Cassana Eastermont but we do get a description of a kin of hers

Ser Andrew Estermont stood a head taller, with a spade-shaped beard and shaggy brown eyebrows.

 

2. Ned said Robert didn’t know Lyanna he only saw her beauty not the iron so Robert couldn’t have loved her “neener, neener.”

 

      A. Actually Ned said: “You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert.”

In addition to the several quotes dismissing that notion we should understand context.Ned is simply pointing out the difference in their relationship with the same woman. His knowledge and intimacy as a sibling will be different to Robert’s knowledge and intimacy as the intended.Robert didn't see Lyanna's iron side because he probably did nothing to warrant it.

3. And how about Bella and Gendry if Robert loved Lya so much explain Bella and Gendry he sired them when Lyanna was missing.What do you say to that?

Well actually no i'm going to throw a wrench in that notion.

"I'm a king's daughter myself. “Arya knew she was being mocked. "You are not."

 

"Well, I might be." When the girl shrugged, her gown slipped off one shoulder. "They say King Robert fucked my mother when he hid here, back before the battle. Not that he didn't have all the other girls too, but Leslyn says he liked my ma the best."

 

A.    This is a rumor that has its foundation in Robert’s reputation and the fact that he was at the Stoney Sept. You can tell this by the latter bolded perceived idea of Robert. Bella herself is not even buying this but it’s good for business pitching your banging one of Robert’s bastards.

B.    Given that Gendry was born in KL it would no doubt be some time after Robert had come there and made himself king. Logically, based on what was going on and considering the emotional hit Robert was about to take. He most likely went to a tavern in KL after he found out about Lyanna’s death and he never left.

4. I don't care she was willing and he was horny Robert and Lya wouldn’t have sex before they got married it’s against custom

    A. Righhhhhhht because no one else ever did or thought about it.Plus they would be stupid to blab don't you think?    

“Mother says I’m still to marry you so you’ll stay here and obey. AGOT, 743”

“I’ll get you with child as soon you’re able.”…….”When do you think you’ll be able to have children?”Pg 747.

 

Yes,” Septa Scolera echoed, “and you must feel so much lighter now, clean and innocent as a maid on the morning of her wedding. “I fucked Jaime on the morning of my wedding, the queen recalled.

 

“He would have served up my maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden’s blood on his cock the night he claimed me (adwd Barbrey).

 

Robb and Jeyne Westerling had sex before they got married. The “ole” Marvin Gay treatment

 

5.    Robert’s genes are just so strong and Jon has nothing from him.I aint buying it Wolfy.

Well if we get hung up on the hair,jaw and shoulder the obvious Bob trait you might miss it.

1.“Ours is the Fury.”

Robert's anger is well known and legendary and so is Jon's to the point that we the fans have nick named it i.e waking the Dragon or him going Berserker.That's Robert's temperment.They get angry very fast. As Theon said of Jon he is qick to percieve a slight...Just like Robert.There is several more examples but you all get the point it think.

“He snatch up his breastplate from the ground and threw at Selmy in a wordless fury. (Robert)

 

"Gods," the king swore, the word exploding out of him as if he could barely contain his fury. "You mean it, damn you."(Robert)

 

“Stop it!” Jon snapped angrily. The other boys fell silent, taken aback by his sudden fury.(Jon)

 

Jon had vaulted onto the table, dagger in his hand. Pyp made a grab for him, but he wrenched his leg away,<snip>..but Sam threw himself between them and before Jon could get around him, Pyp was on his back clinging like a monkey, and Grenn was grabbing his arm while Toad wrenched the knife from his fingers. ...AGoT

 

“ He sat on the bench and buried his head in his hands. Why am I so angry? He asked himself, but it was a stupid question. Lord of Winterfell. I could be the Lord of Winterfell. My father’s heir (Jon asos).

 

The Seed is strong

So remember I told you to keep in mind that the above phrase means more than hair etc? “Seed” also means progeny/offspring,so reading this again with that in mind we have “the progeny/offspring” is strong.And yes George actually subs children for seed in the narrative i.e Arriane in the "Princess in tower" chpt refers to herself as her father's seed.

About Gendry

The master called over a tall lad about Robb's age, his arms and chest corded with muscle

 

"This is Gendry. Strong for his age, and he works hard.

 

"You saw the boy. Such a strong boy. Those hands of his, those hands were made for hammers.

 

About Mya

“She found Mya Stone waiting impatiently with Lothor Brune and Mord. She must have come up in the bucket to see what was taking us so long. Slim and sinewy, Mya looked as tough as the old riding leathers she wore beneath her silvery ringmail shirt.”

 

About Edric

“Edric is a sturdily attractive youth, with jet-black hair and deep blue eyes.”(

 

Of those we are sure are Roberts, his strength and physical features are stamped unto them. Jon exhibits exceptional strength as well but unlike the others in his case it is more noticeable because he doesn’t have the Baratheon built that would explain his physical strength. Which is IMO what GRRM intended to show as a contrast. You look at the others and because of their built its obvious they are strong no big deal.George removes the obvious physicality which makes his streangth pop.We as fans notice his strength and we talk about it because it shouldn't be .Look at all of them together.

“Lord Robert was wounded by the Dragon Prince in combat yet in the end Baratheon’s ferocious strength brought on by his thirst to avenge the shame brought upon his stolen betrothed proved the greater ,WB. pg 129.

 

“He’d had a giant’s strength too, his weapon of choice a spiked iron warhammer that Ned could scarcely lift.”

 

 “I was always strong . . . no one could stand before me, no one.”--Robert to Ned

 

“ Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half-brother was strong and fast.

 

“When the wildling fell the mare bolted, but somehow Jon managed to grab her mane with his off hand and vault himself onto her back……

 

It was all he could do to force himself back to his feet and climb onto her back. How did I ever mount her before, without saddle or stirrups, and a sword in one hand? That was another question he could not answer Jon asos.”

 

Ser Alliser seized Jon by the arm. Jon yanked away and grabbed the knight by the throat with such ferocity that he lifted him off the floor.

 

Jon Snow grasped the spear that bore Garth Greyfeather's head and wrenched it violently from the ground. "Pull down the other two," he commanded, and four of the crows hurried to obey….

 

“To the men struggling with the spears Snow said, "Take the heads and burn them.”

 

“Iron Emmett was a long, lanky young ranger whose endurance, strength, and swordsmanship were the pride of Eastwatch. Jon always came away from their sessions stiff and sore, and woke the next day covered with bruises, which was just the way he wanted it.

 

We know what Jon did to poor Em.People...JON IS ROBERT'S BASTARD.

                                                                                                                                       PART 2

Rhaegar’s Pekong: Pekong is a form of social commentary with a hidden insult or shaming creatively, it can be an extreme form of teasing.

 

Rhaegar’s actions with the crowning  isn’t necessary for making a case for Robert as Jon daddy. I don’t believe they are linked directly. The crowning as i will show actually had more to do with her “state of purity” at the time.I think it important to explain IMO what Rhaegar’s actions at the Tourney were about, what it was saying and the consequences. It’s easy to think especially where roses are involved somehow it’s about romance or admiration. We see in the case of Loras and Sansa as well as the Bael story that doesn’t hold true always.There’s always another motive behind the scenes. The same here,it  had naught to do with admiration, love at first sight, politics(though politics could work) or prophecy. It was simply Rhaegar’s wit on steroids, shaming Lyanna for her behavior. What Rhaegar did had cultural significance to the Starks that should be taken into consideration. Given Rhaegar’s bookish nature it’s not unreasonable to think that he may have encountered the tale of Bael and the Stark maiden before and pulled it from his memory bank when he found out Lyanna and Robert had banged at the tourney.Ehhh the politics aspect.Its possible he was "advised "to do that without ever having known what that would mean in relation to the Starks who were visibly upset.Its possible someone else used Rhaegar's actions and made a power play of their own.This could also have been Rhegar's version of his cousin and his woman kissing underneath a tree and it backfired.For me it was a series of unfortunate events that "someone else" capitalized on, which started with Rhaegar when he went all Baelor the blessed and dissed Lyanna for un-lady like conduct.We'll talk more about this i'm sure.

Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again (asos,Dany.Chpt 8).

There's a lot of interpretation with respect to the Bael the bard story and needless to say i don't agree with the common thinking on it.Or should i say there are aspects of the story really important that gets swept aside.I want to draw attention to one fact that when it came to Bael and the Stark maiden it takes two to tango.Sure Bael banged her to stick it to LS However,she was even more shady than Bael.Remember Daeron's ( another singer)story about his encounter with the Lord Rowan's daughter.This is for another essay but this is what kind of happened in Lyanna's case. Brandon's declaration is at the Red Keep is a big clue to that.

“Be that as it may, what’s certain is Bael left the child in payment for the rose he plucked unasked --Ygritte to Jon (ACOK,Jon).” Contextually, the rose does not signify a baby, but the Stark maiden’s virginity and Bael deflowered her. Per Ygritte’s tale:

 

“He (Lord Stark) followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast." "Bael had brought her back?" "No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle.”

 

 Bael didn’t take her, but what he did take was rare indeed. Her maiden’s head.

 

“, but the old chronicles of Winterfell say nothing of him (Bael). Whether this was due to the defeats and humiliation he was said to have visited upon them (including, according to one improbable story deflowering a Stark maiden and getting her with child) WB pg, 149.”

 

Fun fact: A girl’s Hymen before getting torn looks like an inverted flower? This is where the term “deflower” originated.

I think it’s important to see that there is a difference between a blue rose and a crown of blue roses and a baby. Also, But to add a little symbolism behind the crown its common in Beltane rituals as the adornment of the goddess in her maiden untouched form. We will continue in the vein that blue rose is linked to the Stark girl’s virginity in verse her unblemished state and sync that with the crown which is just a bigger emphasis on that state.Rhaegar laying the crown of blue roses in Lya's lap in front of her brothers calling back to that unfortunate tale implied that Lya was no maiden thus deflowering had already occurred. He gave her a symbol of what she no longer was ,so making her a maiden again.Now if the Stark boys saw this as an insult,and they clearly did how would Lyanna -coming from the same cultural background and household- interpret this gesture from Rheagar? We see a contrast with Sansa here and who reached out and took the rose from Loras However, Lyanna didn’t touch or grasp the crown and go all groupie.So what was she doing probably steering at it in shock and humiliation until Ned removed it and boy was he writhing inside.Though Ned wasn’t overtly expressive as Brandon, his description was very telling.

“Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife………….. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, as blue as frost. Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals, the thorns lay hidden….. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke……-GoT, pg. 631.

 

Note: Thorns have a few meaning in real and none positiive .As you know a thorny crown is tied to a rather famous event in our world as a mockery to Jesus the Christ. As the Romans mocked Jesus as King of the Jews with their Crown of thorns, Rhaegar’s gesture mocked Lyanna as a maiden. It was sharp and it was cruel…… It hurt.Worse for him his actions drew blood, first blood.

"That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses (Richard Lonmouth who was also a close friend and squire to Rhaegar also he was a Storm lander (Hmmm) each swore they would unmask him,<snip>. But the next morning,<snip>. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished. The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree.

The blue bolded is how we know sex had happened it verifies the interpretation of what Rhaegar did and goes hand in hand with the myth. A tree was the original maypole .When couples went off "A maying" sky and green canopy were their tent and other things *ehem* hung from the branches.George could have just said  Rhaegar found nothing when they looked for TKOTLT but he chose this imagery and put it linguistically that way.

Another Fun Fact: A girl's hymen is also reffered to as her "shield"

Harwin’s paints a "festive" atmosphere at the tourney (keep in mind the great rite). Robert and Lya like a lot of other couples “hooked up” at the Tourney it simple as human nature and being horny in an atmosphere that warmed the blood. The obvious question is how did Rhaegar know? He guessed, a friend told him, someone saw ,he saw ,Robert drunk let it slip; take your pick.I'm thinking and its possible when Rhaegar found the shield that was his clue.So,on the last day of the Tourney he dropped the 411, a reference only the Starks would get. It was the truth cleverly wrapped, that alluded to a previous shame in Stark history.                        

                                                                                                                         Spot the Ghost Grass

This part is strictly for fun you don't have to read it or even play along ,but Ghost grassing is basically like confirmation bias.Nothing more to go on than i have to believe it first and that's how it will fit.Some of these i might consider to be confirmation bias,others maybe not.What do you guys think what would you guys choose from below?

“I failed you, Robert, Ned thought. He could not say the words. I lied to you, hid the truth. I let them kill you.”AGOT,Ned Chpt 58.

 

-Ned lied to Robert about Jon being Ned’s and Wylla’s. The truth he hid, that Jon was Robert's by Lyanna

 "Fathers are like that," he admitted as he pinned the folds with a silver clasp. "Tell him he should be pleased. As many times as I've fucked you, you're likely with child. It's not every man who has the honor of raising a king's bastard."ACOK,Theon Chpt 11

 

Seeing as Theon’s entire internal monologue consisted of Ned and Robert conquest of Pyke It’s so clearly  ironic as Ned was raising Robert's son.

“My son, how could I have made a son like that Ned………..“It would not trouble me if the boy was wild, <snip>Agot Ned.”

 

“Thorne staggered back, rubbing the marks Jon’s fingers had left on his neck. “You see for yourselves, brothers. The boy is a wildling.” Jon,Asos.

 

-Robert’s son who the author cleverly had Thorne refer to as a wilding is on the Wall...Jon Snow

 “His father was observing all the courtesies, but there was tightness in him that Jon had seldom seen before. He said little, looking out over the hall with hooded eyes, seeing nothing. Two seats away, the king had been drinking……………Father took the king down to the crypts this afternoon.

 

“She was more beautiful than that,” the king said after a silence. His eyes lingered on Lyanna’s face, as if he could will her back to life.”

 

- Ned was nervous because Jon and Robert were in the same room for the first time. Robert knows Lya’s face intimately so there is a possibility he would have seen a bit of Lya in Jon. You know because Jon looks like Arya and Arya looks like Lyanna. By the way Jon your father went to visit your mother.

“That’s the real king of this castle right there,” one of the gold cloaks had told her. “Older than sin and twice as mean. One time, the king was feasting the queen’s father, and that black bastard hopped up on the table and snatched a roast quail right out of Lord Tywin’s fingers. Robert laughed so hard he like to burst. You stay away from that one, child.”

 

“The wildling pulled off the band from his left arm and tossed it at Jon, then did the same with its twin upon his right. "Your first payment. Had those from my father and him from his. Now they're yours, you thieving black bastard."

 

“The Black Bastard of the wall, one man had called him. Even Jon would never know Blind Beth, i bet. That made her sad.”

 

The real king,that black bastard,Robert's child. And Robert's black bastard is a thief to.He stole Tywin's chicken,Tourmond's gold band and Ygritte to.LMAO,I almost couln't  finish that one...I'm sorry.

Any of you ever see a mammoth climb a wall?" He laughed, and Pyp and Owen and half a dozen more laughed with him. "They're nothing, they're less use than our straw brothers here, they can't reach us, they can't hurt us, and they don't frighten us, do they?"................................................

Any man who wastes an arrow will need to climb down and fetch it back, do you hear me?"

 

."I do," shouted Owen the Oaf. "I hear you, Lord Snow."

Jon laughed, laughed like a drunk or a madman, and his men laughed with him.

He laughed like a drunk or a madman well look at that.Additionally,Jon may have had the somber face of the Starks but his father's joyfoul essence.Sam notes after Ygritte died that Jon seldom smiled.We see a few moments of him laughing with Sam,Grenn and the others and even Arya in connecting needle to him associated Needle with his smile.

In conclusion:  It has been said that clues in this series supports one man as Jon’s father. No other combination stands up against  it.You decide. I’ve shown that Robert and Lyanna most definitely were sexually involved and the clues highlighted could also support mutual love between them. Additionally the essay has showed connections between Robert/Jon, Lyanna /Jon and even found the common thread that connects all three thematically in and out of verse. The need for secrecy when it came to Jon was quite clear and still is relevant to the story emotionally, politically and magically if Jon is revealed to be the son of Robert Baratheon and Lyanna Stark.

Thank you all for reading and for participating.

[SFDanny]

As usual, Wolfmaid, you get the timeline questions all wrong. The timeline Martin sets out of Jon being born "eight or nine months" before Daenerys does not tell us who are Jon's parents. It only puts forward severe concerns about the viability of certain combinations. This combination is one of them. With Lyanna being "kidnapped" well before the rebellion starts. News of the abduction reaches Brandon on his way to Riverrun and he and his party ride to King's Landing, there to be taken prisoner with the rest of his party and summons sent to their fathers to come to the capital for trial, then the trials occur and the men are all killed with the exception of Brandon's squire, and Aerys sends his demand to Jon Arryn and Jon calls his banners. From this point it is about a year until the sack of King's Landing.  Shortly before King's Landing Rhaella and Viserys flee to Dragonstone and "nine moons" later Daenerys is born there in the midst of a huge storm that destroys the royal fleet. So you are asking the reader to believe in a pregnancy that last well over a year in length.

What these basic facts tell us is not who are Jon's parents, but that people we know are together, or can be together, during the time period of about three months into the war are much more likely candidates than those whose proximity to each other can only be explained through convoluted and unsupported ideas. So, if, for instance, we can reasonably see a way to put Ned and Wylla together - which is not a problem - then they have a greater probability of being candidates than candidates we know to be on opposites sides of the rebellion  - such as Robert and Lyanna.

For your idea to work, we not only have to ignore the textual evidence for the timing of Daenerys's birth, but we have to rewrite the "abduction" of Lyanna by Rhaegar. If these things are true, and you show nothing to doubt they are, then we have to imagine in your scenario how Robert and Lyanna come together some three months into the rebellion, conceive Jon, and then Robert and Lyanna for some reason travel back to their respective sides for him to take up his role of general in the rebellion and she to become Rhaegar's captive again. This strains the reader's sense of believability well beyond the breaking point.

Not only this, but we are asked then to believe Robert never makes the connection of Jon's birth and his tryst with Lyanna. Ned, of course, would hide this from his friend to protect Jon from the Lannisters. Nonsense. 

Many hours have been spent arguing various possible scenarios to explain who could be Jon's parents. The timeline and proximity does not eliminate any of the possible scenarios for which there are clues in the text - Rhaegar and Lyanna, Ned and Wylla, Ned and Ashara, or Ned and the Fisherman's daughter. It does help eliminate the more tin foil hat ideas that periodical comes up in these pages for anything but kicking around the most crackpot ideas the more bored of us come up with. Robert and Lyanna, Howland and Lyanna, Ned and Lyanna, and a few more like this fall squarely into crackpot territory.

I'll leave the whole idea of Robert and Lyanna loving each other, and the total distortion of Lyanna's remarks to Ned about Robert's nature to another post. Tomorrow starts early, goodnight. 

[Black Crow]

As usual, Wolfmaid, you get the timeline questions all wrong.

Just as a point of information. As I understand it these essays are not written by Wolfmaid herself, but rather are being re-posted from elsewhere. A by-line identifying the real author would be helpful.

[wolfmaid7]

As usual, Wolfmaid, you get the timeline questions all wrong. The timeline Martin sets out of Jon being born "eight or nine months" before Daenerys does not tell us who are Jon's parents. It only puts forward severe concerns about the viability of certain combinations. This combination is one of them. With Lyanna being "kidnapped" well before the rebellion starts. News of the abduction reaches Brandon on his way to Riverrun and he and his party ride to King's Landing, there to be taken prisoner with the rest of his party and summons sent to their fathers to come to the capital for trial, then the trials occur and the men are all killed with the exception of Brandon's squire, and Aerys sends his demand to Jon Arryn and Jon calls his banners. From this point it is about a year until the sack of King's Landing.  Shortly before King's Landing Rhaella and Viserys flee to Dragonstone and "nine moons" later Daenerys is born there in the midst of a huge storm that destroys the royal fleet. So you are asking the reader to believe in a pregnancy that last well over a year in length.

What these basic facts tell us is not who are Jon's parents, but that people we know are together, or can be together, during the time period of about three months into the war are much more likely candidates than those whose proximity to each other can only be explained through convoluted and unsupported ideas. So, if, for instance, we can reasonably see a way to put Ned and Wylla together - which is not a problem - then they have a greater probability of being candidates than candidates we know to be on opposites sides of the rebellion  - such as Robert and Lyanna.

For your idea to work, we not only have to ignore the textual evidence for the timing of Daenerys's birth, but we have to rewrite the "abduction" of Lyanna by Rhaegar. If these things are true, and you show nothing to doubt they are, then we have to imagine in your scenario how Robert and Lyanna come together some three months into the rebellion, conceive Jon, and then Robert and Lyanna for some reason travel back to their respective sides for him to take up his role of general in the rebellion and she to become Rhaegar's captive again. This strains the reader's sense of believability well beyond the breaking point.

Not only this, but we are asked then to believe Robert never makes the connection of Jon's birth and his tryst with Lyanna. Ned, of course, would hide this from his friend to protect Jon from the Lannisters. Nonsense. 

Many hours have been spent arguing various possible scenarios to explain who could be Jon's parents. The timeline and proximity does not eliminate any of the possible scenarios for which there are clues in the text - Rhaegar and Lyanna, Ned and Wylla, Ned and Ashara, or Ned and the Fisherman's daughter. It does help eliminate the more tin foil hat ideas that periodical comes up in these pages for anything but kicking around the most crackpot ideas the more bored of us come up with. Robert and Lyanna, Howland and Lyanna, Ned and Lyanna, and a few more like this fall squarely into crackpot territory.

I'll leave the whole idea of Robert and Lyanna loving each other, and the total distortion of Lyanna's remarks to Ned about Robert's nature to another post. Tomorrow starts early, goodnight. 

SFDanny i will answer you tommorrow but first these questions.

1. What textual evidence is there for Dany's birth are you talking about? All info comes from Viserys and his accounts are what is being used to dismiss her "stated" birth

2. You misrepresented the whole Lannister as a threat so read that again.Given what Ned saw in Darry's throne room and the fact that Robert would be surrounded by Lannisters.Ummm no he'd keep his nephew away from that.

3. Nope i'm saying as i said in the essay Dany was not born when she thinks she was.So there's no need for any year long pregnancies SFDanny.I also put in the essay why Rhaegar abducting Lyanna didn't happen starting with GRRM's quotes.There's no proof Rhaegar abducted Lyanna or had anything to do with her disappearence.There is only what people believe.

[wolfmaid7]

Just as a point of information. As I understand it these essays are not written by Wolfmaid herself, but rather are being re-posted from elsewhere. A by-line identifying the real author would be helpful.

This one is by me its at the start.

[Ygrain]

Cersei was the only woman that guarded her cunt from Robert, so Lyanna must have succumbed.

Sorry but I find this reasoning completely flawed.

Nor do I find your interpretation of Lyanna accepting Robert for what he was convincing, her "love cannot change a man's nature" is an expression of reservation. - Besides, what exactly makes you believe that Lyanna would dishonour her family by having premarital sex, albeit with her betrothed? Or that Robert would dishonour both his betrothed as well as his best friend's family by deflowering her before marriage? - BTW, where did you say this tryst took place? I get a bit lost in all the red text.

[wolfmaid7]

Cersei was the only woman that guarded her cunt from Robert, so Lyanna must have succumbed.

Sorry but I find this reasoning completely flawed.

Nor do I find your interpretation of Lyanna accepting Robert for what he was convincing, her "love cannot change a man's nature" is an expression of reservation. - Besides, what exactly makes you believe that Lyanna would dishonour her family by having premarital sex, albeit with her betrothed? Or that Robert would dishonour both his betrothed as well as his best friend's family by deflowering her before marriage? - BTW, where did you say this tryst took place? I get a bit lost in all the red text.

Noooo Ygrain Lyanna didn't guard her cunt because her statement to Ned proves that she wasn't going to. Sex was already on the table my dear. Robert could only keep to one bed IF he had a bed to keep to IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Robert's reaction to Cersie that's telling its not something he's ever experianced before.No woman had ever said no to him.If he'd been shot down before,Cersie's behavior wouldn't be a big deal Ygrain.Think critically about ths hun.

No its not an expression of reservation,its her saying what she said before a different way.....Her belief that he wouldn't keep to one bed which he could only do if she was willing to whenever.

I can't believe you asked me the bolded.Ygrain you didn't read the essay you glimpsed it because i said very clearly why they did have sex and i said plainly where the.

So read and get back to me when you read it.I have quotes to back up under each heading.

[Ygrain]

Noooo Ygrain Lyanna didn't guard her cunt because her statement to Ned proves that she wasn't going to. Sex was already on the table my dear. Robert could only keep to one bed IF he had a bed to keep to IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Lyanna was Robert's betrothed at this point, so yes, sex was on the table - AFTER the wedding. Being betrothed =/= hopping to the bed with the betrothed as if they were already married. A girl was supposed to be a maiden on the wedding night.

On the other hand, betrothed men are supposed to, at least in theory, honour their engagement and not sleep around (can't resist the pun, no stag parties), which is what Ned is trying to convince Lyanna about, and she states that once a womanizer, always a womanizer. She is concerned with Robert's fidelity and doesn't believe that he would remain faithful to her, even if she is going to keep her end of the bargain, i.e. have sex with him AFTER the marriage.

Also, you haven't explained why Ned seems alright with Robert shagging his little sister.

 

Robert's reaction to Cersie that's telling its not something he's ever experianced before.No woman had ever said no to him.If he'd been shot down before,Cersie's behavior wouldn't be a big deal Ygrain.Think critically about ths hun.

Robert's reaction to Cersei is telling as to the usual response to his sexual ADVANCES. In no way does it indicate that Robert ever made such advances towards Lyanna.

No its not an expression of reservation,its her saying what she said before a different way.....Her belief that he wouldn't keep to one bed which he could only do if she was willing to whenever.

And in this case, the whenever mean AFTER the wedding.

I can't believe you asked me the bolded.Ygrain you didn't read the essay you glimpsed it because i said very clearly why they did have sex and i said plainly where the.

Oh, sure I read your "Beltane Harrenhal". I just couldn't believe you would insist that Cat would consider a toddler younger than her newborn. The tourney was 281, Lyanna supposedly abducted in 282, Jon born in 283... so you posit that the date of birth is wrong and that Jon was born a whole year earlier and everyone at Winterfell just put on blinders? And where was Jon for the whole duration of the Rebellion and what about Lyanna's bed of blood after its end? Do you think that she had another child in between? 

BTW, have you noticed that for your timeline to work, you need to discredit the word of the author, the identity of a character, the statement of the book as well as the credibility of the plot? Not particularly reassuring for your theory.

So read and get back to me when you read it.I have quotes to back up under each heading.

You sure have a lot of quotes. They just don't mean what you claim they do. Hun.

 

Re: the supposed intimacy between Lyanna and Robert:

Calling your betrothed who is your brother's bestie by name is not a sign of lovers' intimacy. 

[purple-eyes]

Lyanna was Robert's betrothed at this point, so yes, sex was on the table - AFTER the wedding. Being betrothed =/= hopping to the bed with the betrothed as if they were already married. A girl was supposed to be a maiden on the wedding night.

On the other hand, betrothed men are supposed to, at least in theory, honour their engagement and not sleep around (can't resist the pun, no stag parties), which is what Ned is trying to convince Lyanna about, and she states that once a womanizer, always a womanizer. She is concerned with Robert's fidelity and doesn't believe that he would remain faithful to her, even if she is going to keep her end of the bargain, i.e. have sex with him AFTER the marriage.

Also, you haven't explained why Ned seems alright with Robert shagging his little sister.

 

Robert's reaction to Cersei is telling as to the usual response to his sexual ADVANCES. In no way does it indicate that Robert ever made such advances towards Lyanna.

And in this case, the whenever mean AFTER the wedding.

Oh, sure I read your "Beltane Harrenhal". I just couldn't believe you would insist that Cat would consider a toddler younger than her newborn. The tourney was 281, Lyanna supposedly abducted in 282, Jon born in 283... so you posit that the date of birth is wrong and that Jon was born a whole year earlier and everyone at Winterfell just put on blinders? And where was Jon for the whole duration of the Rebellion and what about Lyanna's bed of blood after its end? Do you think that she had another child in between? 

BTW, have you noticed that for your timeline to work, you need to discredit the word of the author, the identity of a character, the statement of the book as well as the credibility of the plot? Not particularly reassuring for your theory.

You sure have a lot of quotes. They just don't mean what you claim they do. Hun.

 

Re: the supposed intimacy between Lyanna and Robert:

Calling your betrothed who is your brother's bestie by name is not a sign of lovers' intimacy. 

just two cents, lyanna did not have problem to have sex with a married man and a father of two. So her attitude on premarriage sex may not be so strict as you thought. She had wolf blood as brandon and brandon was also confirmed to take whatever he wanted on physical relationship. So it is not out of character that she slept with robert just for fun and her wild wolf blood and had a bed with him so that she knew robert would not keep to her bed, ok? She had a bed with robert, but robert got a bastard, now she knew he would not stick to her bed, this is very logic. 

And timeline wise, lyanna certainly had enough time to birth two children or even four children. 

Otherwise why did we see so many theories on dany meera griff are her children? 

It is also very rare that she died on the first childbirth. We only had cases like women died on second or third pregnancies. She is supposed to be very strong and healthy, she may just had two pregnancies over the time. 

And she and rhaegar supposed to be gone in early 282, but jon was born in late 283. He was conceived early 283. Just like robb. 

Did lyanna or rhaegar have fertility issue? 

Not likely based on rhaegar's record, so a first pregnancy is surely possible. 

Rhaegar needed to wait for her to get ready to conceive. 

 

 

[wolfmaid7]

Lyanna was Robert's betrothed at this point, so yes, sex was on the table - AFTER the wedding. Being betrothed =/= hopping to the bed with the betrothed as if they were already married. A girl was supposed to be a maiden on the wedding night.

On the other hand, betrothed men are supposed to, at least in theory, honour their engagement and not sleep around (can't resist the pun, no stag parties), which is what Ned is trying to convince Lyanna about, and she states that once a womanizer, always a womanizer. She is concerned with Robert's fidelity and doesn't believe that he would remain faithful to her, even if she is going to keep her end of the bargain, i.e. have sex with him AFTER the marriage.

Also, you haven't explained why Ned seems alright with Robert shagging his little sister.

 

Robert's reaction to Cersei is telling as to the usual response to his sexual ADVANCES. In no way does it indicate that Robert ever made such advances towards Lyanna.

And in this case, the whenever mean AFTER the wedding.

Oh, sure I read your "Beltane Harrenhal". I just couldn't believe you would insist that Cat would consider a toddler younger than her newborn. The tourney was 281, Lyanna supposedly abducted in 282, Jon born in 283... so you posit that the date of birth is wrong and that Jon was born a whole year earlier and everyone at Winterfell just put on blinders? And where was Jon for the whole duration of the Rebellion and what about Lyanna's bed of blood after its end? Do you think that she had another child in between? 

BTW, have you noticed that for your timeline to work, you need to discredit the word of the author, the identity of a character, the statement of the book as well as the credibility of the plot? Not particularly reassuring for your theory.

You sure have a lot of quotes. They just don't mean what you claim they do. Hun.

 

Re: the supposed intimacy between Lyanna and Robert:

Calling your betrothed who is your brother's bestie by name is not a sign of lovers' intimacy. 

Ygrain the quotes mean exactly what i think they mean because they infer that.You also mis quoted me.i said her reference to Robert by his first name indicates familiarity.She knew him and well.

By the way hun i don't need to discredit the author.Desperate for stuff to say huh?

I just need to analyze his characters belief that's it.The other stuff seriously is grasping at straws. I will post more on that later but you have to do way better Ygrain. 

Ok i'm back and to answer you in more detail.

1. There is a rebuttal portion for a reason and it answers this question as i knew it would come up. What a girl or boy should do isn't always done several quotes above pointed to a culture of that not happening.Dishonor only occurs if one party breaks confidence and spills the beans.Lyanna nor Robert would be sooooo stupid to talk about what they did.

2. Robert would dishonor Lyanna by speaking about banging her,anyone which includes Ned.Ned would also never ask Robert " Dude you banging my sister?" And he would never ask Lyanna that either it would be inappropriate.

3. There is a reason why i stated to pt attention when Lyanna made her statement because her initial feelings about Robert's fidelity is mute when time is taken into consideration.They were bethrothed long enough where Robert would sink or swim in that department.But the point is there is only one way to know and that entailed Lyanna sleeping with him.You can't not sleep with a guy and then complain he's sleeping with someone else...duh.It only works if their banging and he sleeps with other women...Then he's not keeping to one bed.

4. Robert's reaction is directly related to her guarding her pussy that's what throws him.The way she guards her cunt as if it is gold.That she is cold.He's never had this from a woman that's why her behavior confuses him that's why he's mentioning it.

5. Your reason is flawed Ygrian you can't prove Jon was born in 283 that's what we are arguing? You can't use a premise in refute to prove itself.....Seriously.

6.What Cat notice or doesn't is irrelevant i don't think you read anything.What she chooses to believe for self preservation is stronger than that. And the basis ofcourse as i pointed out is

a. The need for her and her kids to be secure in their inheritance

b. A culture that says crap like bastards grow up faster because they are bastards.

6. Your claim that i have to discredit GRRM's claim is hogwash and totally just wrong. GRRM said Jon is 8-9 month older that Dany.That is 100% true.That Dany was born 9 mths after "her mother" arrived on DS is false because

a. Foundation is based on the figure Jamie saw getting into the wheelhouse.If you want to say GRRM just felt like throwing in for style that she was cloaked and hooded when he could have simply said " Jamie saw Rhaella getting into the wheelhouse " and not even take the time to mention that the figure was hooded and cloaked i can only reaffirm my earlier statement and say.Yeah some of you guys most definitely just miss subtle clues like that.It just goes over your heads.

[wolfmaid7]

Lyanna was Robert's betrothed at this point, so yes, sex was on the table - AFTER the wedding. Being betrothed =/= hopping to the bed with the betrothed as if they were already married. A girl was supposed to be a maiden on the wedding night.

On the other hand, betrothed men are supposed to, at least in theory, honour their engagement and not sleep around (can't resist the pun, no stag parties), which is what Ned is trying to convince Lyanna about, and she states that once a womanizer, always a womanizer. She is concerned with Robert's fidelity and doesn't believe that he would remain faithful to her, even if she is going to keep her end of the bargain, i.e. have sex with him AFTER the marriage.

Also, you haven't explained why Ned seems alright with Robert shagging his little sister.

 

Robert's reaction to Cersei is telling as to the usual response to his sexual ADVANCES. In no way does it indicate that Robert ever made such advances towards Lyanna.

And in this case, the whenever mean AFTER the wedding.

Oh, sure I read your "Beltane Harrenhal". I just couldn't believe you would insist that Cat would consider a toddler younger than her newborn. The tourney was 281, Lyanna supposedly abducted in 282, Jon born in 283... so you posit that the date of birth is wrong and that Jon was born a whole year earlier and everyone at Winterfell just put on blinders? And where was Jon for the whole duration of the Rebellion and what about Lyanna's bed of blood after its end? Do you think that she had another child in between? 

BTW, have you noticed that for your timeline to work, you need to discredit the word of the author, the identity of a character, the statement of the book as well as the credibility of the plot? Not particularly reassuring for your theory.

You sure have a lot of quotes. They just don't mean what you claim they do. Hun.

 

Re: the supposed intimacy between Lyanna and Robert:

Calling your betrothed who is your brother's bestie by name is not a sign of lovers' intimacy. 

Ygrain the quotes mean exactly what i think they mean because they infer that.You also mis quoted me.i said her reference to Robert by his first name indicates familiarity.She knew him and well.

By the way hun i don't need to discredit the author.Desperate for stuff to say huh?

I just need to analyze his characters belief that's it.The other stuff seriously is grasping at straws. I will post more on that later but you have to do way better Ygrain. 

[wolfmaid7]

just two cents, lyanna did not have problem to have sex with a married man and a father of two. So her attitude on premarriage sex may not be so strict as you thought. She had wolf blood as brandon and brandon was also confirmed to take whatever he wanted on physical relationship. So it is not out of character that she slept with robert just for fun and her wild wolf blood and had a bed with him so that she knew robert would not keep to her bed, ok? She had a bed with robert, but robert got a bastard, now she knew he would not stick to her bed, this is very logic. 

And timeline wise, lyanna certainly had enough time to birth two children or even four children. 

Otherwise why did we see so many theories on dany meera griff are her children? 

It is also very rare that she died on the first childbirth. We only had cases like women died on second or third pregnancies. She is supposed to be very strong and healthy, she may just had two pregnancies over the time. 

And she and rhaegar supposed to be gone in early 282, but jon was born in late 283. He was conceived early 283. Just like robb. 

Did lyanna or rhaegar have fertility issue? 

Not likely based on rhaegar's record, so a first pregnancy is surely possible. 

Rhaegar needed to wait for her to get ready to conceive. 

 

 

Yeah the bolded is the reasoning that just screams hyprocritical on an epic level and thank you for pointing it out.

Also, and it goes back to the timeline the basis for which Jon's birth timeline is derived is flawed monumentally flawed.The author put so much hints in this that Dany was not born on DS and she was not born 9mths after Rhaella left KL because the figure that Jamie saw was not her.

[Wall Flower]

Wolfmaid, it's clear you've put a lot of work into this and are heavily invested. However, I think there are significant problems with your theory and it doesn't stack up anywhere near as convincingly as R+L = J.

I'm really confused about the timeline issue - I seem to recall GRRM indicating that Jon was born around the time of the sack of KL which would conclusively rule out Robert as father. For Jon to have been conceived at Harrenhall, he would need to be significantly older that Robb who was conceived during the rebellion. You've suggested Catelyn was deceiving herself but surely, as a new mother herself, she would have to be completely delusional not to see such a big developmental difference between the two boys. Would other people at Winterfell not notice?

I think you're missing what Meera's story is telling us about the Tourney - Lyanna sniffling over another man's song while her betrothed engages in a drinking contest and boasts about unmasking a mystery knight who he is unaware is probably his own fiancee. There is no suggestion of any passionate connection between Robert and Lyanna at all.

I have to say that I also don't really get the 'keeping to one bed' arguments, which seem really convoluted compared to the more obvious interpretation that Lyanna thought Robert was a womaniser by nature and unlikely to change even when she was the one sharing his bed. The fact that Ned and Lyanna are having the conversation at all suggests to me that she didn't react with enthusiasm to the announcement of her betrothal and Ned seems to be doing his best to sell Robert to a doubtful buyer. Ned remembers Lya's words after trawling through brothels, etc meeting and hearing about Robert's many bastards. Surely what Ned's thinking is 'Seven hells, Lya was right!'. We might see her concerns as jealousy in a modern relationship but in this instance it may simply reflect doubts over the man chosen for her (not by her).

While I take your point about the 'gold giving way to the coal', all of Robert's bastards seem to look like him while we know that one of Rhaegar's children strongly resembled her Dornish mother. I think Bella is Robert's child as that makes sense of Arya's unconsciously amusing reflection that Bella had the same hair as the old king but that didn't mean anything as Gendry did too. Jon seems to be all Stark but is a thoughtful observant introvert, totally unlike the extrovert Lyanna and the very extrovert Robert.

It's understandable that Ned would keep Jon being Rhaegar's child a secret from Robert - we see Ned's dismay about how much Robert still hates every dragonspawn - but it would be unconscionable to keep Robert's own child from him. Robert didn't marry Cersei immediately, so could Ned really have seen the Lannisters as a danger to Robert's bastard? He did have clear evidence, however, about how much danger any child of Rhaegar's would be in (including from Robert himself).

BTW I hate to be called 'hun' (or 'love', the Australian equivalent).

 

[purple-eyes]

Wolfmaid, it's clear you've put a lot of work into this and are heavily invested. However, I think there are significant problems with your theory and it doesn't stack up anywhere near as convincingly as R+L = J.

I'm really confused about the timeline issue - I seem to recall GRRM indicating that Jon was born around the time of the sack of KL which would conclusively rule out Robert as father. For Jon to have been conceived at Harrenhall, he would need to be significantly older that Robb who was conceived during the rebellion. You've suggested Catelyn was deceiving herself but surely, as a new mother herself, she would have to be completely delusional not to see such a big developmental difference between the two boys. Would other people at Winterfell not notice?

I think you're missing what Meera's story is telling us about the Tourney - Lyanna sniffling over another man's song while her betrothed engages in a drinking contest and boasts about unmasking a mystery knight who he is unaware is probably his own fiancee. There is no suggestion of any passionate connection between Robert and Lyanna at all.

I have to say that I also don't really get the 'keeping to one bed' arguments, which seem really convoluted compared to the more obvious interpretation that Lyanna thought Robert was a womaniser by nature and unlikely to change even when she was the one sharing his bed. The fact that Ned and Lyanna are having the conversation at all suggests to me that she didn't react with enthusiasm to the announcement of her betrothal and Ned seems to be doing his best to sell Robert to a doubtful buyer. Ned remembers Lya's words after trawling through brothels, etc meeting and hearing about Robert's many bastards. Surely what Ned's thinking is 'Seven hells, Lya was right!'. We might see her concerns as jealousy in a modern relationship but in this instance it may simply reflect doubts over the man chosen for her (not by her).

While I take your point about the 'gold giving way to the coal', all of Robert's bastards seem to look like him while we know that one of Rhaegar's children strongly resembled her Dornish mother. I think Bella is Robert's child as that makes sense of Arya's unconsciously amusing reflection that Bella had the same hair as the old king but that didn't mean anything as Gendry did too. Jon seems to be all Stark but is a thoughtful observant introvert, totally unlike the extrovert Lyanna and the very extrovert Robert.

It's understandable that Ned would keep Jon being Rhaegar's child a secret from Robert - we see Ned's dismay about how much Robert still hates every dragonspawn - but it would be unconscionable to keep Robert's own child from him. Robert didn't marry Cersei immediately, so could Ned really have seen the Lannisters as a danger to Robert's bastard? He did have clear evidence, however, about how much danger any child of Rhaegar's would be in (including from Robert himself).

BTW I hate to be called 'hun' (or 'love', the Australian equivalent).

 

i just want to say, if Lyanna had sex with robert before her abduction (sometime in the first half of 282), then this baby will be born in the early of 283. which is about half year older than robb. And it is totally possible. 

 

[Ygrain]

 

1. There is a rebuttal portion for a reason and it answers this question as i knew it would come up. What a girl or boy should do isn't always done several quotes above pointed to a culture of that not happening.Dishonor only occurs if one party breaks confidence and spills the beans.Lyanna nor Robert would be sooooo stupid to talk about what they did.

 Now I am confused - you posit that Ned knew Robert was Jon's father, so he must have learned at least ex post. Yet, still no beef with Robert knocking up Lyanna when she was fourteen.

BTW, if Lyanna got preggers at HH, how come no-one noticed the considerable bumper that she had before she went missing?

2. Robert would dishonor Lyanna by speaking about banging her,anyone which includes Ned.Ned would also never ask Robert " Dude you banging my sister?" And he would never ask Lyanna that either it would be inappropriate.

So, murder is not a crime if no-one finds out?

3. There is a reason why i stated to pt attention when Lyanna made her statement because her initial feelings about Robert's fidelity is mute when time is taken into consideration.They were bethrothed long enough where Robert would sink or swim in that department.But the point is there is only one way to know and that entailed Lyanna sleeping with him.You can't not sleep with a guy and then complain he's sleeping with someone else...duh.It only works if their banging and he sleeps with other women...Then he's not keeping to one bed.

That's nonsense. If someone is promised to you, you are fully entitled to expect him to be faithful to you and not sleep around, even if you are not having sex with him, regardless if its due to social restrictions, health condition of whatever.

4. Robert's reaction is directly related to her guarding her pussy that's what throws him.The way she guards her cunt as if it is gold.That she is cold.He's never had this from a woman that's why her behavior confuses him that's why he's mentioning it.

And as I said above, the prerequisite for his reaction is making a sexual advance towards the woman. And that requires him to be a complete D-bag towards his best friend's younger sister and her family.

5. Your reason is flawed Ygrian you can't prove Jon was born in 283 that's what we are arguing? You can't use a premise in refute to prove itself.....Seriously.

Prove that he wasn't.

6.What Cat notice or doesn't is irrelevant i don't think you read anything.What she chooses to believe for self preservation is stronger than that. And the basis ofcourse as i pointed out is

a. The need for her and her kids to be secure in their inheritance

b. A culture that says crap like bastards grow up faster because they are bastards.

Cat gave birth to five children. Please, state where she believes that a newborn bastard's physical and mental development is comparable to that of a one year old toddler, or where Luwin states so. He was talking about mental development. No-one ever makes such a ridiculous claim.

6. Your claim that i have to discredit GRRM's claim is hogwash and totally just wrong. GRRM said Jon is 8-9 month older that Dany.That is 100% true.That Dany was born 9 mths after "her mother" arrived on DS is false because

a. Foundation is based on the figure Jamie saw getting into the wheelhouse.If you want to say GRRM just felt like throwing in for style that she was cloaked and hooded when he could have simply said " Jamie saw Rhaella getting into the wheelhouse " and not even take the time to mention that the figure was hooded and cloaked i can only reaffirm my earlier statement and say.Yeah some of you guys most definitely just miss subtle clues like that.It just goes over your heads.

Or you are reading into it something that is simply not there, and twist the author's words around so that they fit your preconception. If Jon was conceived at HH, he would be born before the Rebelion or shortly into it. What are the notable events to which GRRM relates the the birth dates of these two characters that allow him, who doesn't keep exact timelines, to narrow down the period between their births from one year to 8-9 months?

Plus, if you claim that Dany was not born when she was born, it opens a can of new issues. For your theory to work and keep the 8-9 months time lag, Dany needs to be born at the end of the Rebellion or shortly afterwards. That means Rhaella was not the mother, because there is no way her pregnancy would have escaped attention. A woman of her age, who has had several stillbirths and miscarrriages, would need a maester's care from the beginning of the pregnancy. If it's not Rhaella, though, then who and what textual evidence do we have?

[sciteacher]

i just want to say, if Lyanna had sex with robert before her abduction (sometime in the first half of 282), then this baby will be born in the early of 283. which is about half year older than robb. And it is totally possible. 

 

What you say is true--but that baby could not have been Jon Snow.

Catelyn is troubled because Ned brought home a bastard boy about Jon's age, definitely born during their marriage. Jon is said to have been slightly younger than Robb; he was not much older, certainly not several months older.  We know when Catelyn conceived Robb--on their wedding night. She recalls that Ned impregnated her the night he took her maidenhead. She knows because Ned left to rejoin the rebellion the next day.

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

 

A lot of people underestimate the vast physical and developmental differences in babies during the first two years of life. Two months age difference results in very different skills, size differences, and behaviors.

A two month old can hold their head up and is starting to push up when lying on their tummy.

A three month old can push up on their elbows for a time and might be able to roll over from front to back.

A six month old can roll over both ways, is starting to sit, and might be rocking back and forth on hands and knees. 

An eight month old can pull themselves up to stand and hang on; they can sit up by themselves and stay that way without support. They can crawl.

Catelyn wasn't trying to convince herself of anything about Jon's age. If Jon appeared to be older than Robb, she would have been much happier--it would have meant he was conceived before she and Ned were married.

 

[wolfmaid7]

What you say is true--but that baby could not have been Jon Snow.

Catelyn is troubled because Ned brought home a bastard boy about Jon's age, definitely born during their marriage. that'said to have been slightly younger than Robb; he was not much older, certainly not several months older.  We know when Catelyn conceived Robb--on their wedding night. She recalls that Ned impregnated her the night he took her maidenhead. She knows because Ned left to rejoin the rebellion the next day.

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

 

A lot of people underestimate the vast physical and developmental differences in babies during the first two years of life. Two months age difference results in very different skills, size differences, and behaviors.

A two month old can hold their head up and is starting to push up when lying on their tummy.

A three month old can push up on their elbows for a time and might be able to roll over from front to back.

A six month old can roll over both ways, is starting to sit, and might be rocking back and forth on hands and knees. 

An eight month old can pull themselves up to stand and hang on; they can sit up by themselves and stay that way without support. They can crawl.

Catelyn wasn't trying to convince herself of anything about Jon's age. If Jon appeared to be older than Robb, she would have been much happier--it would have meant he was conceived before she and Ned were married.

 

the text disagree's with you actually.Luwwin's statement that Jon parrot's back to Benjen infers that something about Jon caused that to be raised prompting the old "he's a bastard that's why" argument. The ideology about bastards actually works in favor of keeping them behind and any positive or trait that could cause anyone to suspect is turned around.

Aemon steelsong and monster disagrees with you.People see what they want instead of what's there.Can anyone tell the difference? That coupled with what someone in authority says makes prying doubful.

then there's this the entire visual of a 6month vs a year doesn't hold.Why? How old was Robb when they finally arrived at Winterfell? 

There's a curious quote from Cat i'll post lster she had her doubts.

Ygrain ill reply to you later.

[Luna Longmoon]

Ok, first off, love this theory, but I have a couple of questions and one comment.  My son gained weight quickly and was constantly being mistaken fir several months old at 6 weeks and a year at seven months, so considering we don't know how long it took for cat to arrive in winterfelll where Jon and wet nurse were in residence and the fact that cat likely did not want to spend any time, possibly avoiding jon when he was little and the precident of gilly and dalla' s baby swap; I would say possible.  However, are we saying that Raegar was being witty and mocking with the crown but later realized she was the future mother of his third child so kidnapped her, waited till Jon was born and she died miscarry ing raegar' s kid or is there another explanation for her disappearance and death? 

[wolfmaid7]

 

 Now I am confused - you posit that Ned knew Robert was Jon's father, so he must have learned at least ex post. Yet, still no beef with Robert knocking up Lyanna when she was fourteen.

BTW, if Lyanna got preggers at HH, how come no-one noticed the considerable bumper that she had before she went missing?

So, murder is not a crime if no-one finds out?

That's nonsense. If someone is promised to you, you are fully entitled to expect him to be faithful to you and not sleep around, even if you are not having sex with him, regardless if its due to social restrictions, health condition of whatever.

And as I said above, the prerequisite for his reaction is making a sexual advance towards the woman. And that requires him to be a complete D-bag towards his best friend's younger sister and her family.

Prove that he wasn't.

Cat gave birth to five children. Please, state where she believes that a newborn bastard's physical and mental development is comparable to that of a one year old toddler, or where Luwin states so. He was talking about mental development. No-one ever makes such a ridiculous claim.

Or you are reading into it something that is simply not there, and twist the author's words around so that they fit your preconception. If Jon was conceived at HH, he would be born before the Rebelion or shortly into it. What are the notable events to which GRRM relates the the birth dates of these two characters that allow him, who doesn't keep exact timelines, to narrow down the period between their births from one year to 8-9 months?

Plus, if you claim that Dany was not born when she was born, it opens a can of new issues. For your theory to work and keep the 8-9 months time lag, Dany needs to be born at the end of the Rebellion or shortly afterwards. That means Rhaella was not the mother, because there is no way her pregnancy would have escaped attention. A woman of her age, who has had several stillbirths and miscarrriages, would need a maester's care from the beginning of the pregnancy. If it's not Rhaella, though, then who and what textual evidence do we have?

Lets take your "gripe" bit by bit for a second.

Ygrain your confusing yourself and what your asking makes no sense.Why would he have a beef with Robert for this when he already knows Robert's appetite himself. He knows how sexual Robert is,it would be crazy for Ned to think that Robert is going to wait how ever long before he and Lyanna gets married without having sex .he has no reason at all to ever be upset with Robert he himself have said.

" Robert has never been patient."

Robert has always been a man with a huge appetite who knew how to take his pleasure." 

So it's kind of silly to think he would then somehow expect Robert to somehow abstain???That is madness right there.You have better luck keeping water in a sieve.

Let's see a lithe girl like Lyanna who was tomboyish wouldn't show big as someone bigger than her would.She could hide in big clothes especially if she like dressing in guys clothing like Arya did. And Lastly,why would anyone notice if she bolts when she begins to show?

Ygrain you really grasping at some weird straws.Murder carries consequences if one is caught.It being a crime has nothing to do with you not being punished if no one knows you did said crime. Likewise Lyanna and Robert are protected from any consequences as long as no one knew and they kept there mouths shut.You know just like the other examples i gave in the rebuttal sections of a few people who actually were smart enough not to blab about their sexual escapades.

Another nonsense reply Ygrain i dare you to tell your husband/wife or boyfriend/girlfiend i'm no longer going to have sex with you and i expect you to be faithful.First of all you wouldn't tell them that because you wouldn't risk that they would step out on you. Here's a saying that's well knows " If YOU ain't sleeping with your man,bet your money someone else is."Secondly,that any person would expect someone to be deprived and do nothing to help is ridiculous and it further validates what i'm saying.What's a stupid thing to do is for anyone to expect Robert to go without,to make a match with someone who is already experianced and then pull the plug for X amount of time........Ygrain this fails completely.

What are you going on about with Cat? I never said such a foolish thing.So i can't answer you.

According to Jon in his first chapter of AGOT speaking to Benjen Luuwin says this: " Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children."

Think about this Ygrain. Tell me under what circumstances,what statement made would have merited this reply from Luwin? Someone noticed something about Jon asked a question and this was the response he gave to appease whether he believed it or not.It did its job.There's is an ideology about bastards that makes such things believeable.Its the Sealord's Cat all over again.Something is clear and a person in a postion of trust and authority gives a reason and it is believed.Simple as that.

No i'm not reading into something that not there.As to what notable event that happens to keep time and events......Ohhhh this is going to get good...I'm glad you asked that Ygrain.....The seasons or more specifically the Weather.Is the picture coming into focus better...*cough* Oak /Holly kings.

 

Ok, first off, love this theory, but I have a couple of questions and one comment.  My son gained weight quickly and was constantly being mistaken fir several months old at 6 weeks and a year at seven months, so considering we don't know how long it took for cat to arrive in winterfelll where Jon and wet nurse were in residence and the fact that cat likely did not want to spend any time, possibly avoiding jon when he was little and the precident of gilly and dalla' s baby swap; I would say possible.  However, are we saying that Raegar was being witty and mocking with the crown but later realized she was the future mother of his third child so kidnapped her, waited till Jon was born and she died miscarry ing raegar' s kid or is there another explanation for her disappearance and death? 

Welcome Goldenstorm wolf. I agree with you i would have probably been a while before Cat could bring herself to face her insult.A bit further in the Politics of Marriage section i referenced two quotes form GRRM about the importance of the royal and noble class to adhere to matches that were made for them because there was more at stake than their feelings/likes/dislikes etc.In some cases the match was a good one in others no.

Its something i will talk about a bit later when i'm done cooking dinner ( tofu fajitas anyone?) But the question to ask before we put Rhaegar with Lyanna is if he had anything to do with her disappearence? I do not believe Rhaegar was a scapegoat.He was guilty of blabbing about his cousin's woman but he was innocent of anything having to do with her going missing.

The key to that is both Brandon, Ned and Rhaegar's behavior and things they said and didn't say.

As i said i'll speak more on this in a bit.

[sciteacher]

the text disagree's with you actually.Luwwin's statement that Jon parrot's back to Benjen infers that something about Jon caused that to be raised prompting the old "he's a bastard that's why" argument. The ideology about bastards actually works in favor of keeping them behind and any positive or trait that could cause anyone to suspect is turned around.

Aemon steelsong and monster disagrees with you.People see what they want instead of what's there.Can anyone tell the difference? That coupled with what someone in authority says makes prying doubful.

then there's this the entire visual of a 6month vs a year doesn't hold.Why? How old was Robb when they finally arrived at Winterfell? 

There's a curious quote from Cat i'll post lster she had her doubts.

Ygrain ill reply to you later.

The text absolutely supports what I say.

I'm not sure I completely understand your first point, but it seems you are pointing to his statement: Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children. I'm not sure what you think that means, but it doesn't mean they actually do age faster or that anyone tries to hold them back. It means that no one coddles and spoils them. They often aren't given the training and education the legitimate children are given. They can even be teased and taunted. As a result, they need to learn to stand up for themselves, the fend for themselves. They have to be savvy and mature.

Gilly and Dalla's babies were "of an age" --you'd have to watch them closely to figure out which was the older.

Sam and Gilly stood nearby. Her eyes were red and puffy, but the boy was in her arms, bundled tight. Whether it was her boy or Dalla's he could not be sure. He had only seen the two together a few times. Gilly's boy was older, Dalla's more robust, but they were close enough in age and size so that no one who did not know them well would be able to easily tell one from the other.

And a six month old versus a one year old?

A six month old is just beginning to sit up, they make sounds when they hear sounds (maybe not the same sound, there are many they can't make yet). They're just starting to sit alone and if you lift them up to their feet they will bounce, but they can't stand yet.  They'll look at you when you play games like peek a boo and smile, but they don't play back.

A one year old will hand you a book to get a story, they are walking, they follow simple directions (give me the spoon), they are beginning to speak at least trying to say words if not using a few. They play games (peek a boo) and help you dress them.

As far as how old Robb was when Catelyn returned to Winterfell, we don't really know. We know she came there "When the wars were over at last" and she says that she and Ned were separated for a year after their marriage.