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Heresy Project X+Y=J: Robert + Lyanna


wolfmaid7

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That's an interesting way to look at it, but it doesn't quite work. In Ned's previous chapter, we had "suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. " Prior examples of Ned referring to Rheagar are references to the past, and he doesn't really think about him. There, your distinction makes sense. This one though strikes me as being a bit harder to explain.

I'd say the most likely explanation is that GRRM made a mistake in using these two so similar phrases. He obviously had this notion in his head that part of the story he wanted to tell was Ned being suddenly reminded of Rhaegar, that the events of the present day would resonate with the events of the rebellion in Ned's mind. He used it twice, after all. The question then is why he chose to use that particular device in this particular place. Waving it aside just doesn't work -- it's obviously an important point that GRRM is making, something he'd thought about. 

.It easy to explain this with GRRM made a mistake but no he didn't.Think about the comparison to Rhaegar and Baelor the blessed and you have your answer.

This is exactly what I think. If you want a good example of how you can be reminded of someone (almost) daily without really remembering them or thinking about them too much, just go to your Facebook page. :)

No not in this case.

This is slightly less plausible than the love child of  Optimus Prime and Megatron being the great other. 

As usuall thank you for whatever it is you do when you post.

You have reminded me about my brother's friends when I was a teen (he is eight years older). I referred to them by their first names even though I barely knew them, I guess because that was how he talked about them.

She claims that Lyanna got pregnant at Harrenhal and that Jon was born way earlier than is usuall assumed, because Dany is not who she is and hence the 8-9 months period between their births refers to some other dates.

Somewhere along the ways, the logistic issues of this scenario got lost, and we need explanations for a lot of other connected issues, like:

- how Rhaegar became involved in the whole "abduction" mess

- where was Lyanna after HH and how she concealed her pregnancy

- where and how Lyanna disappeared if not with Rhaegar and why she never informed her family

- why the Starks thought that Rhaegar was responsible

- why Lyanna never returned to her family

- why Lyanna never informed Robert

- where Jon was the whole time and how he could be reasonably passed off for younger than Robb when he was way older

- who fathered that other child from Lyanna's "bed of blood" and what happened with it (and if there was even a time window that allowed for another conception so shortly after her first pregnancy)

And then there are, of course, issues connected to GRRM's way of writing, like the info dumps on a fourteen years old prince who never had any connection to any current major character, why Lyanna keeps being depicted with blue roses which have no connection to her child or lover, what's so crucial about Jon's parentage that is has to be kept not only from the book characters but from the readers, as well, and what is the payoff of him being Robert's illegitimate son when it gives him no special background (no "ice and fire", no claim to the throne), or what is the point of establishing Westerosi "genetics" that makes all of Robert's bastards look like him but have Jon look like Lyanna, and the like.

Read that part again in my essay Jon has attributes of Robert the two that matters in fact and it is that for a reason.If he (GRRM) made him look like Robert the typical Robert features that would be a dead give away wouldn't it.I swear you either didn't read  because this is all in the rebuttal or this is a distracting tactic?

No Jon is older because his narrative fits it.What most people did wrong is use Dany's assumed birth timeline as a variable to determine this.If you use Rhaella leaving when the person leaving wasn't Rhaella you have a problem.

Info dumps of Rhaegar have been in Dany's chapters info dumps of Robert's in Jon. Hey i told you all to check it out if you think i lied. Check and see how much time Robert appears in Jon chapter and the context.Go ahead and do it don't just make sweepingstatements.

Try to be brief, please. If you think that you are being misinterpreted, it has a lot to do with your way of writing.

Wrong: we have THREE statements:

3. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall

From Ned, fourteen years after his first statement. Produced on the way from the brothel where he saw another of Robert's bastards.

I don't think i'm being misinterpreted i think you are just intentionally being dense.I'm always in a hurry i don't have time to sit and actually edit alot  some of us have jobs that only afford us brief intervals. I'm always in the field.

What is wrong with your statement is it has nothing to do with Lyanna.Like i posted to the other guy who brought this up He (Robert) would forget all of them yes except the one that mattered.Validated by Ned.

"No sooner had those formalities of greeting been completed than the king had said to his host, “Take me down to your crypt, Eddard. I would pay my respects.” Ned loved him for that, for remembering her still after all these years.

Ned 1 agot

And I take everything from that story as truth until I find something that disproves that. Even though I suspect that the story is made up out of two events that got blended into one memory, I do believe that each of those statements is true.

 

The thing about Daenerys, though, is that her birth was a rather public event. If she was not born on Dragonstone during the storm, why was the fleet there, why did the garrison lie about her having been there, where did Rhaella's body suddenly come from (months after her death?)? All such things.. There are quite some problems with such a theory placing Dany's birth not only at another location, but also at a much earlier time. And meanwhile, the story as we are told is so easily explained, and symbolically as logically fits quite well.

For example...

 

I'd say a house owned by the Sealord of Braavos, as her memories describe a house, and the Sealord lives in something much larger than a house :) But the fact that there was a lemon tree could logically imply that there was someone powerful involved.. Either an indication that the house (had) belonged to someone more powerful, or an indication that someone powerful had visited the house for secret reasons (Oberyn, to sign the contract).

 

 

It is a similar situation as the presenting of the crown of the Queen of Love and Beauty. Ned doesn't mention how Rhaegar gives Lyanna the crown, Yandel does. Does that mean that Ned didn't see it? No, he definitly would have seen it. Yet he doesn't mention it, for whatever reason.

 

My point is, that Jaime doesn't mention Viserys doesn't mean Viserys wasn't there. And that Rhaella had been cloaked doesn't mean she wasn't the person Jaime saw leaving. Especially considering that we don't get a hint that Rhaella was elsewhere.

Then why go through the toruble as an author penning that in the first place.Just say Jamie saw Rhaella getting into the Royal wheelhouse and forget the extra description of her being "cloaked and hooded" .He didn't see her he expected it to be her for sure but he had no idea who was under that cloak.

Dany's birth wasn't public that entire event is shrouded and again she could have arrived there from Dorne and everthing else could be true.

Contextually it doesn't fit because you are comparing mundane elements to elements that are ambiguous and deliberately so.And or they would cause a careful reader to question in given that this story is one that manipulates perception and reality.

I still don't understand why Dany was lied to about her birth.  Assuming that Dany is the daughter of Rhaella and Aerys(which she is) then why does it matter when and where she is born?

Think about the whole marriage pact with Dorne and why it was neccessary that Viserys have a sister.

Sigh. 

Yes, people often do things they are not supposed to do. And when they do it, they don't think it's okay to do it just because they don't talk about it. Arys is concerned both about Arianne and what her father will think if he finds out, and he only has a sexual relationship with her and Doran is a stranger to him, albeit one in a position of power. In your scenario, Robert does what he is not supposed to do to the woman he loves, to the man whom he loves better than his brothers, and to their family. Those would be inhibitions even to someone like Robert, even if no-one ever found out. We know that Ned eventually found out, though - yet the text doesn't indicate any issue.

- Or, to take your scenario a bit further:

Let us presume that Robert indeed never married after Lyanna's death, until Sansa reached puberty. Robert proposed, Ned agreed, Sansa was thrilled, just like she was about Joffrey, but was also worried the same way Lyanna had been because of Robert's reputation, and reached the same conclusion like her. So, in this scenario, would Robert be okay with banging Ned's young daughter? Would Ned be okay with it because he knew Robert?.

"Somehow, he thought not" can indeed be used sarcastically, but for it to be a sarcasm, there would have to be context for it, and it's missing, as well as a reason. Why would Ned ridicule Rhaegar for not going to brothels, when he is being so disappointed with Robert for doing just that? And why does he even think of Rhaegar at all? - BTW, in your scenario, did Rhaegar even have sex with Lyanna at some later point?

Also, would you kindly elaborate on the points I posted above:

 

- how Rhaegar became involved in the whole "abduction" mess

- where was Lyanna after HH and how she concealed her pregnancy

- where and how Lyanna disappeared if not with Rhaegar and why she never informed her family

- why the Starks thought that Rhaegar was responsible

- why Lyanna never returned to her family

- why Lyanna never informed Robert

- where Jon was the whole time and how he could be reasonably passed off for younger than Robb when he was way older

- who fathered that other child from Lyanna's "bed of blood" and what happened with it (and if there was even a time window that allowed for another conception so shortly after her first pregnancy)

 
 

So... if I am getting it right, you assert that because Lyanna had sex with Robert a couple of times during the HH tourney, he would be faithful to her? And she would expect him to be faithful to her? For months?

 

Repeating the bolded doesn't make it any truer.

Look at the map. HH is nowhere close to the road to Riverrun, it would be a detour. 

Lyanna may have stayed at HH after the tourney, may have been visiting prior Brandon's wedding. And they may have been hidden right under everyone's noses at the place where she disappeared from, just like the Stark daughter and Bael.

Well, someone sent the Goldcloaks for him, and someone also killed Barra's baby girl. 

She most likely is.

Even if it wasn't Rhaella that Jaime saw, Viserys was old enough to remember his mother with a belly.

I would take the points you asked first because you asked nicely:D Let me ask you a question Ygrain. Forget what the singers say what the common story was.Based on the actions of people like Ned,Robert and Brandon do you think Lyanna was missing at all.I haven't written it up yet but i'll give you a sum to think of.Let's review the conversations by throwing them all on the ground letting them land and seeing when they fit what picture they form.

a. Them raising against the Targs to stop the murder of kids.

b.Him and Robert setting off to win a crown.

c. Ned after leaving the Keep in a cold rage after Tywn lays Rhaegar's dead did before Robert his internal monologue saying he rode off to figth the rest of the war.

What's missing Ygrain in all this?

d. Him in the crypt saying that he brings Lyanna flowers when he can as she was....fond of flowers.

Do you remember the arguement we were having about Lyanna and the roses and that she would have to be in a place that had access where someone who knew she liked them could get them to her?

Let's move now to Cat and Jamie's conversation.

a. Jamie saying that Brandon rode in the Keep and demanded Rhaegar come out and die

b.Cat's saying that Brandon rode off when he "heard about Lyanna"

We don't hear from Cat exactly what Brandon heard about Lyanna,but the end result is not him asking for her or her whereabouts but demanding Rhaegar come out and die.

c.We have Rhaegar's last conversation with Jamie after he returns from the South.His tone is off he speaks of his father being afraid of Tywin more than "their cousin Robert." Ok you just stole or ran off with "your cousin's" woman and you use a term of endearment for Robert one that's even stronger than how he refrred to your father as "your royal sire?"

I'm sorry but Rhaegar like the rest of the realm was in the dark no one knew Lyanna was missing until after it was over and that was the story that was told.Heck not even Robert knew she was missing or that Rhaegar "took her" until after.That was the story he was fed to.Sorry to say Rhaegar wasn't involved with her disapearance he became the scapegoat the Wicker man that which was sacrificed to accomplish a goal to bring the Targs down.

2. That's an unfair question and a biased one Ygrain it already favors Lyanna being with Rhaegar.But to answer she was in a place where there was a broken tower and roses nearby.And that gives us a few choices.How she concealed her pregancy well if she bolted to a secret place when she realized her tummy was getting a little pudge it would be easy.

3.What answer did you all come up with why she didn't tell her family? Oh that's right none.I will take a guess based on how the clues fit for me is that she was preggers,ashamed and did what young girls do in that situation.

4. Usage of "The Starks" is a loaded one we don't know what the Starks thought with regards to Lyanna disappearing. We know what Bran thought and he's parroting what he heard. We have no idea what Brandon thought or Ned thought on this.

5.Why she didn't tell her family same as 4

6.These are the type of questions that lead people to give stupid answers. I don't know why she didn't tell Robert i'm not psychic and we have no thoughts by Lyanna at all.We will find out i'm sure.

7. I believe Jon was at Starfall,that is where he was taken as a hostage until Ned made him a blood kin via the breast milk yo house Dayne. In that way there would be no vengence taken against them for Arthur's part in what went down.

8. Who said Lyanna's bed of blood was due to CB? That is your assumption based on your understanding of the text.It is not mine.I am of the belief that Lyanna was kilded in an altercation that saw her fataly wounded and Jon taken from her to Starfall where Ned retrieved him.

9.Ygrain i don't know if Robert would have  been faithful nor can you say for certainty that he wouldn't.We can't judge what could have been because it never was.I believe that in the time that they did have he never did and she saw that and if he did Ned would not think highly of Robert with respect to Lyanna. He said he would love her and be true and years later he says that Robert loved her with all his hear. He Ned was right.That Lyanna and Robert like a few couples at Harrenhall they hooked up in the biblical way.

10.As i said the story of her going missing is a bogus one so you can arge about that if you like.

11. We will never know what Viserys remembers about Rhaella's belly because we never got that.GRRM gave us what he gave us for a reason.

To your other query. The context isn't missing your just missing it. Look at the setting and what Ned's internal monlogue is about.

Aren't we still missing SLJ, TLJ and NAJ essays?

On to this one, a couple of disagreements and a few questions raised that I think need some expansion or clarification.

Bob is Ned's best friend, who he loves like a brother. Ned's far from boastful. Why wouldn't he tell his kids how great his bestie is?

You bring up the notion that it is meaningful that it is in Jon's chapters we see Robert particularly mentioned. I'm not sure this isn't an argument against the hypothesis. GRRM tends to sow clues at a distance.

GRRM's point is about social class. Consider the parts of the text between your highlights, and let's switch it around.

almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with  the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened.

almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with  the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened.

Rhaegar is as far away from being the stable-boy as it is possible to get. He is higher status than Robert, not lower. 

Nor is it remotely reasonable to consider Lyanna, the oldest daughter of the lord paramount of the North, in that low social stratum. Lyanna is alongside Cat Tully, Cersei Lannister and Elia Martell (and possibly Janna Tyrell, not sure about her age/eligibility) as the most eligible women in the seven kingdoms. 

But she says that Robert will never keep to one bed. Future tense. As in after they are married. When Ned objects that things will change after the marriage, Lyanna tells him that "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." 

This is Lyanna refuting the idea that offering up her bed to Robert would make the blindest bit of difference. 

While I find this part of the essay really fascinating, I also find it a bit confusing. While Robert clearly has horned god symbolism, it is Rheagar, not Robert, who crowns the may queen. Doesn't that make the sacred marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna? Isn't Rhaegar actually supplanting Robert's de facto position as horned god by crowning Rhaegar? Or indeed, giving him horns in a rather different manner. 

Ned's reaction to this mirroring is that he contrasts Robert with Rhaegar. Why, if Rhaegar has nothing to do with it, does Ned suddenly think of him right then, when we are told (erroneously, but that's another matter) that Ned hadn't thought about him in years? If we are to believe that Ned doesn't think about Rhaegar much, what triggered this contrast, if there's no contrast to be made?

This presupposes that Ned would think that the Lannisters would be a threat to Robert's bastards, but in that case, why does Ned have so much difficulty with the idea that the Lannisters would be a threat to Robert's bastards 14 years later, when he's trying to figure out who killed Jon Arryn, and when he confronts Cersei with it?

There's also the prior example of Mya Stone, Robert's first bastard, living happily with House Royce. Why wouldn't Ned just think of how Robert behaved with Mya, and let him know he'd raise Jon in the north? Robert would surely be more than happy with that arrangement. 

The identity of Jon's parents is the secret, the date of his birth is not. The time frame that GRRM gives us in this SSM is the same as what he's already given us, in a more round about way, in the text. Jon is said to have been conceived after Robb, a few months into the war. The war lasts a year, and Cat learns of Jon's birth while Ned is fighting the last battles of the war in the south. Dany is born almost nine months after the sack. We can draw the same conclusion that GRRM gives us here from the text, with a few weeks extra leeway at most. There's really no secret being revealed here at all.

 

Viserys' memory of black sails makes perfect sense when you recall that they were indeed smuggled OUT of Dragonstone, at night. He's just got the memories of this mixed up. Or possibly GRRM did. It's rather a minor thing to hang two complicated theories on.

A for lemon trees, poleboats and grasslands: can you explain how this has any bearing on Dany's name day? These are all things that arguably hint that Dany's childhood may not have been exactly what we have been told it is, but none of it has any bearing as far as I can see on where or when she was born. She doesn't remember her birth; thus any inaccuracies in her memory have no bearing on her birth. These are questions of where she was at the age of perhaps 2-5, not of her birth.

Another point that seems to get skipped over when discussing these possible discrepancies, is that there is another source of information. In the prologe to ACoK, Stannis confirms the outline of the story we have from Viserys:

Who is that babe, if not Dany? Then we have: 

 She's also referred to as Stormborn by Kevan and Arriane. 

This isn't just some confused story Viserys has told Dany, it's known across the seven kingdoms. 

And that, to me, is the biggest issue with this theory. There's a very good reason for believing that the timing of Dany's birth is exactly what we've been told. It's the standard history of events that's known everywhere. On the contrary, there is as far as I can see, no reason to think it might be something different apart from that a couple of people (one of them 7 at the time) have slightly vague memories of one day 14 years previously. 

1.We have your Stark essay coming up next.I don't think the TLJ is exactly that but as Feather put it more on who could have been behind her disappearance.The Ned Ashara was just a collection of quotes and Voice i think was suppose to put an essay together.

2. Your next point about why wouldn't he tells his kids.That's not what GRRM showed us though.Its very plausible Ned told all the kids about Robert greatest feats.Just as he could have told all the kids about the COTF and the LH.Yet that is not who he chose to do.He chose particular POV's to relay these info and we see as i explained Bran's arch connecting with Ned's story.Jon whether people want to admit it or not is being connected to Robert.

3. Kingmonkey read that stable boy quote again by me.I never said Rhaegar was the stable boy i said "Lyanna was" and that suits even though the gender has has been reversed.Also the notion of it not being appropriate to refer to a LPD as lower class consider this is exactly what Aerys did when Tywin proposed Cersie for Rhaegar.

4.Kingmonkey you are 100% correct Lyanna was speaking in future tense i never proposed when she had the conversation with Ned that they were shagging then. I simply said that connotatively she was alright with when it happened and whenever it would happen. In this case the future was at Harren hall.

5. With respect to the horned god and if Rhaegar crwoning her meant that he had sex with her.Well a couple of things, that would be a problematic scenario fro RLJ as his actions are indicating that sex "already happened" and from a mythical point of view that physically was indicated by the shield hanging in the tree which Prince Rhaegar found. That would be the moment he knew so he didn't have sex with her.

So because he crowned her in front of her brothers doesn't mean he crowned her,it had happened as indicated by the pole/laurel.As indicated by his role as the wicker man all this done after the act.And Rhaegar is far from the archetype and the narrative of that archetype as one can get.

6.As to why think of Rhaegar if he has nothing to do with the situation.I believe Rhaegar does play a part but it has nothing to do with him being Jon's father but what he did during the Harrenhall tourney.Rhaegar dissed Lyanna infront of her brothers for an act that was not lady like.Lyanna was a direct contrast to every maiden there in that she didn't act like a maiden.She didn't act like the delicate flower Elia was,or the maiden Ashara was. There is a reason why Rhaegar was compared to Baelor the blessed?

7.Let's look at what i said Lannisters in general narratively are the threat,Tywin would have been. He wouldbe the lord with ambition for a daughter.And Ned knew him- and what he would do enough to say when Robert was speaking about Robert Aryn going to foster with him-to say he would rather trust a child to a viper than to Tywin Lannister.

8 Kingmonkey everyone of you sidestep this like a Sidewinder in a desert. The theory is not resting on Visery's account.It is supporting evidence.The fact of the matter is Jon's parentage rests on that cloaked figure which Jamie saw as being Rhaella.You guys are wrong on that one and that some of you all are clinging to that is denial.Rhaella alreay left KL. That was a decoy.

9. Stannis doesn't confim anything and let's say Dany arrives at DS from say Dorne and she was 2yrs old she's still be considered a babe. By the way let's say for the sake of this arguement that Viserys mixed up which ship took him where.It doesn't change that Dany could have been brought from Dorne to DS and then smuggled with him to Bravos.So we can talk around this but there is reason to doubt this just looking at Dany alone.

a. Her memories are of Dorne her connections are there.

b. Big one that none of you can't dispute is that Rhaella wasn't who Jamie saw.

 

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.It easy to explain this with GRRM made a mistake but no he didn't.Think about the comparison to Rhaegar and Baelor the blessed and you have your answer.

No not in this case.

As usuall thank you for whatever it is you do when you post.

Read that part again in my essay Jon has attributes of Robert the two that matters and it is that for a reason.If he made him looklike Robert that would be a dead give away wouldn't it.

No Jon is older because his narrative fits it and because you all used the wrong variabes to determine this. One is flawed and that is Dany's birth.

Info dumps of Rhaegar have been in Dany's chapters info dumps of Robert's in Jon. Hey i told you all to check it out if you think i lied. Check and see how much time Robert appears in Jon chapter and the context.

And like i posted to the other guy who brought this up He would forget all of them yes except the one that mattered

"No sooner had those formalities of greeting been completed than the king had said to his host, “Take me down to your crypt, Eddard. I would pay my respects.” Ned loved him for that, for remembering her still after all these years.

Ned 1 agot

Then why go through the toruble as an author penning that in the first place.Just say Jamie saw Rhaella getting into the Royal wheelhouse and forget the extra description of her being "cloaked and hooded" .He didn't see her he expected it to be her for sure but he had no idea who was under that cloak.

Dany's birth wasn't public that entire event is shrouded and again she could have arrived there from Dorne and everthing else could be true.

Think about the whole marriage pact with Dorne and why it was neccessary that Viserys have a sister.

I would take the points you asked first because you asked nicely:D Let me ask you a question Ygrain. Forget what the singers say what the common story was.Based on the actions of people like Ned,Robert and Brandon do you think Lyanna was missing at all.I haven't written it up yet but i'll give you a sum to think of.Let's review the conversations by throwing them all on the ground letting them land and seeing when they fit what picture they form.

a. Them raising against the Targs to stop the murder of kids.

b.Him and Robert setting off to win a crown.

c. Ned after leaving the Keep in a cold rage after Tywn lays Rhaegar's dead did before Robert his internal monologue saying he rode off to figth the rest of the war.

What's missing Ygrain in all this?

d. Him in the crypt saying that he brings Lyanna flowers when he can as she was....fond of flowers.

Do you remember the arguement we were having about Lyanna and the roses and that she would have to be in a place that had access where someone who knew she liked them could get them to her?

Let's move now to Cat and Jamie's conversation.

a. Jamie saying that Brandon rode in the Keep and demanded Rhaegar come out and die

b.Cat's saying that Brandon rode off when he "heard about Lyanna"

We don't hear from Cat exactly what Brandon heard about Lyanna,but the end result is not him asking for her or her whereabouts but demanding Rhaegar come out and die.

c.We have Rhaegar's last conversation with Jamie after he returns from the South.His tone is off he speaks of his father being afraid of Tywin more than "their cousin Robert." Ok you just stole or ran off with "your cousin's" woman and you use a term of endearment for Robert one that's even stronger than how he refrred to your father as "your royal sire?"

I'm sorry but Rhaegar like the rest of the realm was in the dark no one knew Lyanna was missing until after it was over and that was the story that was told.Heck not even Robert knew she was missing or that Rhaegar "took her" until after.That was the story he was fed to.Sorry to say Rhaegar wasn't involved with her disapearance he became the scapegoat the Wicker man that which was sacrificed to accomplish a goal to bring the Targs down.

2. That's an unfair question and a biased one Ygrain it already favors Lyanna being with Rhaegar.But to answer she was in a place where there was a broken tower and roses nearby.And that gives us a few choices.How she concealed her pregancy well if she bolted to a secret place when she realized her tummy was getting a little pudge it would be easy.

3.What answer did you all come up with why she didn't tell her family? Oh that's right none.I will take a guess based on how the clues fit for me is that she was preggers,ashamed and did what young girls do in that situation.

4. Usage of "The Starks" is a loaded one we don't know what the Starks thought with regards to Lyanna disappearing. We know what Bran thought and he's parroting what he heard. We have no idea what Brandon thought or Ned thought on this.

5.Why she didn't tell her family same as 4

6.These are the type of questions that lead people to give stupid answers. I don't know why she didn't tell Robert i'm not psychic and we have no thoughts by Lyanna at all.We will find out i'm sure.

7. I believe Jon was at Starfall,that is where he was taken as a hostage until Ned made him a blood kin via the breast milk yo house Dayne. In that way there would be no vengence taken against them for Arthur's part in what went down.

8. Who said Lyanna's bed of blood was due to CB? That is your assumption based on your understanding of the text.It is not mine.I am of the belief that Lyanna was kilded in an altercation that saw her fataly wounded and Jon taken from her to Starfall where Ned retrieved him.

9.Ygrain i don't know if Robert would have  been faithful nor can you say for certainty that he wouldn't.We can't judge what could have been because it never was.I believe that in the time that they did have he never did and she saw that and if he did Ned would not think highly of Robert with respect to Lyanna. He said he would love her and be true and years later he says that Robert loved her with all his hear. He Ned was right.That Lyanna and Robert like a few couples at Harrenhall they hooked up in the biblical way.

10.As i said the story of her going missing is a bogus one so you can arge about that if you like.

11. We will never know what Viserys remembers about Rhaella's belly because we never got that.GRRM gave us what he gave us for a reason.

1.We have your Stark essay coming up next.I don't think the TLJ is exactly that but as Feather put it more on who could have been behind her disappearance.The Ned Ashara was just a collection of quotes and Voice i think was suppose to put an essay together.

2. Your next point about why wouldn't he tells his kids.That's not what GRRM showed us though.Its very plausible Ned told all the kids about Robert greatest feats.Just as he could have told all the kids about the COTF and the LH.Yet that is not who he chose to do.He chose particular POV's to relay these info and we see as i explained Bran's arch connecting with Ned's story.Jon whether people want to admit it or not is being connected to Robert.

3. Kingmonkey read that stable boy quote again by me.I never said Rhaegar was the stable boy i said "Lyanna was" and that suits even though the gender has has been reversed.Also the notion of it not being appropriate to refer to a LPD as lower class consider this is exactly what Aerys did when Tywin proposed Cersie for Rhaegar.

4.Kingmonkey you are 100% correct Lyanna was speaking in future tense i never proposed when she had the conversation with Ned that they were shagging then. I simply said that connotatively she was alright with when it happened and whenever it would happen. In this case the future was at Harren hall.

5. With respect to the horned god and if Rhaegar crwoning her meant that he had sex with her.Well a couple of things, that would be a problematic scenario fro RLJ as his actions are indicating that sex "already happened" and from a mythical point of view that physically was indicated by the shield hanging in the tree which Prince Rhaegar found. That would be the moment he knew so he didn't have sex with her.

So because he crowned her in front of her brothers doesn't mean he crowned her,it had happened as indicated by the pole/laurel.As indicated by his role as the wicker man all this done after the act.And Rhaegar is far from the archetype and the narrative of that archetype as one can get.

6.As to why think of Rhaegar if he has nothing to do with the situation.I believe Rhaegar does play a part but it has nothing to do with him being Jon's father but what he did during the Harrenhall tourney.Rhaegar dissed Lyanna infront of her brothers for an act that was not lady like.Lyanna was a direct contrast to every maiden there in that she didn't act like a maiden.She didn't act like the delicate flower Elia was,or the maiden Ashara was. There is a reason why Rhaegar was compared to Baelor the blessed?

7.Let's look at what i said Lannisters in general narratively are the threat,Tywin would have been. He wouldbe the lord with ambition for a daughter.And Ned knew him- and what he would do enough to say when Robert was speaking about Robert Aryn going to foster with him-to say he would rather trust a child to a viper than to Tywin Lannister.

8 Kingmonkey everyone of you sidestep this like a Sidewinder in a desert. The theory is not resting on Visery's account.It is supporting evidence.The fact of the matter is Jon's parentage rests on that cloaked figure which Jamie saw as being Rhaella.You guys are wrong on that one and that some of you all are clinging to that is denial.Rhaella alreay left KL. That was a decoy.

9. Stannis doesn't confim anything and let's say Dany arrives at DS from say Dorne and she was 2yrs old she's still be considered a babe. By the way let's say for the sake of this arguement that Viserys mixed up which ship took him where.It doesn't change that Dany could have been brought from Dorne to DS and then smuggled with him to Bravos.So we can talk around this but there is reason to doubt this just looking at Dany alone.

a. Her memories are of Dorne her connections are there.

b. Big one that none of you can't dispute is that Rhaella wasn't who Jamie saw.

 

Look, I think this theory has generated some good discussion and the Robert/Lyanna dynamic is interesting but I am really struggling with some of the above points.

It's true that in the past young engaged couples sometimes pre-empted the wedding night - it happened in my own family in the 1930's and 50's. However, these were romantic love matches freely entered into by both parties. I think that we are suckered into seeing the Robert/Lyanna betrothal as romantic because that's how Robert and to an extent Ned see it. In reality, it was a standard arranged match - Robert didn't woo Lyanna and go down on one knee with a diamond ring in hand, he asked Lyanna's brother to ask her father for her hand in marriage. There's no evidence that Robert's feelings were anything but one-sided. It's also likely that Lyanna's brothers were keeping an eye on her interactions with her betrothed (especially given his rep) and it was her other activities that slipped under the radar.

In the above mentioned family situations, people just got married and pretended the child was premature. Why on earth would Lyanna hide a pregnancy to a man who was approved by her family and who wanted to marry her? An illicit relationship and pregnancy makes much more sense as something to go into hiding for.

Robert idealises Lyanna and has her on something of a pedestal. I think that speaks to him seeing her as different to his other women and his continuing love reflects that she is someone he never got to enjoy or grow tired of as he did with all those others.

 Robert's comment that no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed is shown to be tragically ironic once Barristan refers to Rhaegar being called by that name. We know that Robert's own wife fantasizes about Rhaeger while Robert is fucking her.

We don't know for sure what killed Lyanna but we do know that she was weakened from fever and lying in her bed of blood - an expression that is used elsewhere to denote childbirth. If Rhaegar wasn't involved in her disappearance why was his best friend at the TOJ? Would Ned think so well of Arthur if Lyanna was mortally wounded when her child was taken hostage? Childbirth seems at lot less convoluted an explanation.

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8 Kingmonkey everyone of you sidestep this like a Sidewinder in a desert. The theory is not resting on Visery's account.It is supporting evidence.The fact of the matter is Jon's parentage rests on that cloaked figure which Jamie saw as being Rhaella.You guys are wrong on that one and that some of you all are clinging to that is denial.Rhaella alreay left KL. That was a decoy.

9. Stannis doesn't confim anything and let's say Dany arrives at DS from say Dorne and she was 2yrs old she's still be considered a babe. By the way let's say for the sake of this arguement that Viserys mixed up which ship took him where.It doesn't change that Dany could have been brought from Dorne to DS and then smuggled with him to Bravos.So we can talk around this but there is reason to doubt this just looking at Dany alone.

a. Her memories are of Dorne her connections are there.

b. Big one that none of you can't dispute is that Rhaella wasn't who Jamie saw.

 

You are making a case on no evidence. Jaime doesn't see Rhaella's face as she is taken away to the ship because she has been injured by her husband when he raped her. Jaime stands outside the door when this happens and has to be restrained from intervening by Darry. The impact of the scene is to tell the reader Dany is the child of this rape. It reinforces the vicious character Aerys has become with his descent into madness. That Rhaella is robed isn't evidence someone else took her place and she had already left King's Landing. A very difficult thing to do without the Kingsguard knowing it is so. You have made up a story out of whole cloth that the robed figure is someone else than Rhaella and now view your own story as canon. Amazing.

The idea she went to Dorne is just crazy. The last place Aerys would allow her to go is to Dorne. He has held Elia and her children as hostage to Dorne's "good behavior" for a long time. The absolute last place, short of the Eryie, Winterfell, or Riverrun, Rhaella would want to go, or Aerys would allow her to go is to Dorne. She then becomes the Martell's hostage in a battle for Elia and her children's freedom.

I don't know how many times it need be said, but here it is again, lemon trees do not equal Dorne. What it shows is Dany's childhood memories begin with a rather pampered existence courtesy of the Sealord of Braavos. We have documentary evidence in the marriage pact that show they were there, so that is hardly surprising.

Stannis story confirms the timeline of Daenerys's story. They leave just in front of Stannis's invasion of Dragonstone. All the parameters of Dany's story are confirmed in Stannis's account. As is the supporting evidence that the people of Dragonstone have just become Stannis's subjects and over the next seventeen years of his stay there he finds nothing to support your account or deny Daernerys's.

One should also remember that Robert is dissuaded in taking action to kill Viserys and Daenerys early in his kingship, but that he knows precisely where they are and who protects them.

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I'll try to resist the temptation to go into the problematic bits and counter-arguments for now, in many cases I'd just be repeating what others already said anyway. However, with all its flaws, there's a lot to take away from this essay:

1. I agree that it's important to have the 'sealord's cat' effect in mind when evaluating clues about Jon's parents and the rebellion (also for any theorising about ASoIaF, really). I'm sure GRRM put that into the books as much for our benefit than for Arya's. 

2. I like your approach in the beginning: Ned's Robert stories from Jon's PoV, combined with Jon enjoying stories of drinking/sex/etc does look like an intentional clue by GRRM.

As readers we sometimes ask ourselves the right questions  kind of i.e. ‘Why hasn't Ned thought of Rheagar in years if he’s Jon’s father’ when the question should be “has Ned ever thought and or talked about anyone in particular to Jon?” And moreover, how has GRRM constructed the narrative to convey this if it’s there? It’s a good question because deep down we know it’s unrealistic that Ned would be able to keep Jon’s father out of his thoughts, let alone FOR YEARS. That’s why we asked the question and knowing that we the readers aren’t clairvoyant absent Weirnet and glass candles, GRRM gives us the answers to the questions that we will be prone to ask in the text or he leaves the clues to lead us there. So what is the answer?

3. The other parallels between Jon and Robert. I think that half the patterns and parallels that fans discover are there without GRRM ever intending so, but these definitely seem worth thinking about.

4. It's a great idea to take a fresh look at the relationship of Robert and Lyanna. It's easy to jump to the conclusion that it was all superficial and nothing much happened between them, but let's make sure we don't just jump to conclusions. I agree that if they sort our the fidelity issue, Robert would be a pretty good match for Lyanna, so I could see her warming up to him enough that in the spring buzz of Harrenhal she had sex with him. It gets problematic after that (the running away, the timeline issue), but then I'm pretty hopeless at explaining magicians' tricks as well, yet they happen - maybe GRRM can pull all of that off in a credible way.

5. The laughing tree as a combined sigil for Robert and Lya is clever (although, technically that'd make the KotLT their kid :p). Not sure I believe it, but I like the idea a lot.

6. That the crowning of Lyanna might be a deliberate insult. Also supported by Sly Wren's wonderful thread about Bael parallels. However, I can't see Rhaegar doing that just because he had a sudden urge to be a total dick (which is basically what you seem to be suggesting). Not to mention several other things that are wrong with that section.

7. The Beltane parallels, although I don't feel qualified to evaluate these. At first glance, the Robert - Horned God and Lyanna - floral/winter goddess similarities are striking, not so much for Jon (except the 'corn king' shout-out). I could see Robert as mostly the 'Oak' and Jon as mostly the 'Holly' aspect (seeing that one ruled in the summer and the other, if he will ever rule, it'll have to be in the winter). I'm not familiar enough with Wicker Men, or this entire tradition, to really see how well Rhaegar and everything else fits. However, as a mostly clueless outsider, I'd think that if Harrenhal was a Beltane ritual, it must have gone wrong somewhere - winnter returns "with a vengeance", then death and destruction follows a little while later ... doesn't sound like the intended result of a spring ritual...

There's probably more, and not sure if all of the above makes sense, but I have to go.

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6. That the crowning of Lyanna might be a deliberate insult. Also supported by Sly Wren's wonderful thread about Bael parallels. However, I can't see Rhaegar doing that just because he had a sudden urge to be a total dick (which is basically what you seem to be suggesting). Not to mention several other things that are wrong with that section.

Do you have a link to that thread? I had been discussing Bael parallels with Sly Wren on another thread, but that thread got closed, and it was a very interesting discussion

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Read that part again in my essay Jon has attributes of Robert the two that matters in fact and it is that for a reason.

And as I told you before, that ONE occasion when Jon is displaying Robert's attributes is very much out of character for him.

If he (GRRM) made him look like Robert the typical Robert features that would be a dead give away wouldn't it.

You're still not getting the point. The point is not why Jon doesn't look like Robert but why, in the first place, GRRM created a rule about "seed is strong" by which he would write himself in a corner, from which he would escape by a cop out. That would be pretty much cheating - as if you were playing chess with normal rules and then, all of a sudden, you were told that pawns can also move backwards. There was absolutely no need for GRRM to bother with the whole "seed is strong" part, he could have had Ned figure it out due to other clues, or later introduce a character who would be undisputably Robert's but not look like him, so that we could see that the rule didn't work 100%. Yet, he did write that all of Robert's bastards were his carbon copy, why?

I swear you either didn't read  because this is all in the rebuttal or this is a distracting tactic?

Might I remind you how many times you had things explained over and over?

No Jon is older because his narrative fits it.What most people did wrong is use Dany's assumed birth timeline as a variable to determine this.If you use Rhaella leaving when the person leaving wasn't Rhaella you have a problem.

And if she was Rhaella, it fits even with the initial AGOT chapters, you can see that Jon is fourteen and Dany is not fourteen yet. Being cloaked and hooded =/= being automatically someone else. The story of Rhaella giving birth later on Dragonstone is corroborated by several source.

Info dumps of Rhaegar have been in Dany's chapters info dumps of Robert's in Jon. Hey i told you all to check it out if you think i lied. Check and see how much time Robert appears in Jon chapter and the context.Go ahead and do it don't just make sweepingstatements.

I don't have a problem with the amount of info dumps in the respective characters' chapters, it's just that they are not a proof of anyone's paternity, and given Dany's ties to Rhaegar and the lack of ties to Robert, and vice versa in Jon's chapters due to his own family history, it is hardly surprising.

What is wrong with your statement is it has nothing to do with Lyanna.Like i posted to the other guy who brought this up He (Robert) would forget all of them yes except the one that mattered.Validated by Ned.

"No sooner had those formalities of greeting been completed than the king had said to his host, “Take me down to your crypt, Eddard. I would pay my respects.” Ned loved him for that, for remembering her still after all these years.

Ned 1 agot

And why was she the only one that mattered? Because she was the only one that died, the only one that had been taken from Robert by another man, the only one that he ever had to fight for, the only one that he never got back, the only one that remained a pure unattainable ideal in his screwed life. That's why he remembers her after all those years. I could even go on and say "because she was the only one that he had never had" .

Then why go through the toruble as an author penning that in the first place.Just say Jamie saw Rhaella getting into the Royal wheelhouse and forget the extra description of her being "cloaked and hooded" .He didn't see her he expected it to be her for sure but he had no idea who was under that cloak.

She had to be hidden because she had been brutalized by Aerys, that's why.

Dany's birth wasn't public that entire event is shrouded and again she could have arrived there from Dorne and everthing else could be true.

This is an unsupported statement. Besides, royal birth were never a private event, to ensure legitimacy of the succession line. 

Dragonstone is a big castle full of people who didn't all go with Willem Darry and who would know if the queen was pregnant for nine months or if there suddenly appeared a baby overnight.

I would take the points you asked first because you asked nicely:D Let me ask you a question Ygrain. Forget what the singers say what the common story was.Based on the actions of people like Ned,Robert and Brandon do you think Lyanna was missing at all.I haven't written it up yet but i'll give you a sum to think of.Let's review the conversations by throwing them all on the ground letting them land and seeing when they fit what picture they form.

a. Them raising against the Targs to stop the murder of kids.

b.Him and Robert setting off to win a crown.

c. Ned after leaving the Keep in a cold rage after Tywn lays Rhaegar's dead did before Robert his internal monologue saying he rode off to figth the rest of the war.

What's missing Ygrain in all this?

d. Him in the crypt saying that he brings Lyanna flowers when he can as she was....fond of flowers.

Do you remember the arguement we were having about Lyanna and the roses and that she would have to be in a place that had access where someone who knew she liked them could get them to her

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Let's move now to Cat and Jamie's conversation.

a. Jamie saying that Brandon rode in the Keep and demanded Rhaegar come out and die

b.Cat's saying that Brandon rode off when he "heard about Lyanna"

We don't hear from Cat exactly what Brandon heard about Lyanna,but the end result is not him asking for her or her whereabouts but demanding Rhaegar come out and die.

Which is why many, myself included, believe that Brandon knew that Lyanna had gone willingly and that he went to challenge Rhaegar for dishonouring his sister, just like he had wanted at HH

 

c.We have Rhaegar's last conversation with Jamie after he returns from the South.His tone is off he speaks of his father being afraid of Tywin more than "their cousin Robert." Ok you just stole or ran off with "your cousin's" woman and you use a term of endearment for Robert one that's even stronger than how he refrred to your father as "your royal sire?"

Again, I don't see what your point here is. Robert is Rhaegar's cousin and he didn't exactly do anything wrong, he was forced into the rebellion by Aerys, in defence of his own life. Rhaegar doesn't really have a reason to hold a grudge against Robert.

I'm sorry but Rhaegar like the rest of the realm was in the dark no one knew Lyanna was missing until after it was over and that was the story that was told.Heck not even Robert knew she was missing or that Rhaegar "took her" until after.That was the story he was fed to.Sorry to say Rhaegar wasn't involved with her disapearance he became the scapegoat the Wicker man that which was sacrificed to accomplish a goal to bring the Targs down.

Well, but if Rhaegar was not involved, then why was he nowhere to be found when Aerys wanted him to explain what the mess was about? And why was Rhaegar gone for such a long time? And why did people start to think that he was involved, did anyone frame him? Who and how? And why do so many people, even such who would have had first-hand account of his version of events, like Barristan, believe it?

2. That's an unfair question and a biased one Ygrain it already favors Lyanna being with Rhaegar.But to answer she was in a place where there was a broken tower and roses nearby.And that gives us a few choices.How she concealed her pregancy well if she bolted to a secret place when she realized her tummy was getting a little pudge it would be easy.

Which place was it, how did she get her and who helped her stay safe and hidden?

And what about the time frame between HH and her disappearance?

And why is the place connected with Rhaegar's best pals if he was never involved?

3.What answer did you all come up with why she didn't tell her family? Oh that's right none.

Not sure what you mean here, are you talking about the RLJ scenario? See above - that her family knew and Brandon pulled a righteously angered elder brother stunt, because someone did with his sis what he had done with Barbrey.

.I will take a guess based on how the clues fit for me is that she was preggers,ashamed and did what young girls do in that situation.

Which is what, running away and letting their family think that they were being kidnapped and raped? I am not following. 

W4. Usage of "The Starks" is a loaded one we don't know what the Starks thought with regards to Lyanna disappearing. We know what Bran thought and he's parroting what he heard. We have no idea what Brandon thought or Ned thought on this.

Well, they suspiciously never enquired about her, did they. 

6.These are the type of questions that lead people to give stupid answers. I don't know why she didn't tell Robert i'm not psychic and we have no thoughts by Lyanna at all.We will find out i'm sure.

Well, but to claim that Lyanna did what young pregnant girls do you were psychic enough. As far as I know, young pregnant girls tell their boyfriend in the first place.

7. I believe Jon was at Starfall,that is where he was taken as a hostage until Ned made him a blood kin via the breast milk yo house Dayne. In that way there would be no vengence taken against them for Arthur's part in what went down.

WUT?

1) You don't make blood kin by milk

2) who got Jon to Starfall and how? 

3) as a hostage against whom and for what purpose?

8. Who said Lyanna's bed of blood was due to CB? That is your assumption based on your understanding of the text.It is not mine.I am of the belief that Lyanna was kilded in an altercation that saw her fataly wounded and Jon taken from her to Starfall where Ned retrieved him.

That's based on the text saying that bloody bed = birthing bed and that "women bear children from bed of blood". 

Who wounded Lyanna and why?

9.Ygrain i don't know if Robert would have  been faithful nor can you say for certainty that he wouldn't.We can't judge what could have been because it never was.I believe that in the time that they did have he never did and she saw that and if he did Ned would not think highly of Robert with respect to Lyanna. He said he would love her and be true and years later he says that Robert loved her with all his hear. He Ned was right.That Lyanna and Robert like a few couples at Harrenhall they hooked up in the biblical way.

And this completely ignores the development of Ned's assessment of Robert. As a young boy he said that Robert would be true to her, as a man grown he was happy that Robert still remembered her, and after spending several months in Robert's company and seeing what he had become, he says that Robert swears undying love and forgets it, and that Rhaegar wasn't doing what Robert does. In other words, he acknowledges that he was wrong and Lyanna got it right.

10.As i said the story of her going missing is a bogus one so you can arge about that if you like.

How did the bogus come into existence and why did it survive so long?

11. We will never know what Viserys remembers about Rhaella's belly because we never got that.GRRM gave us what he gave us for a reason.

See above about the rest of the Dragonstone staff.

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My husband has only watched the TV series and is on his second viewing, we're sort-of binging it -- 1-3 episodes a night. He's noticed some things from the TV series that I sort of overlooked, since I've read the books and just never thought it important.

First and foremost, he is absolutely convinced and certain that Robert+Lyanna=Jon. His reasons seem pretty upfront, and easy to overlook, I think.

1. Gendry & Jon. They have striking physical similarities in the TV series, especially that black shaggy hair.

2. Baratheon's are known for their black hair. This point is given to viewers while Jon Snow is at the wall, which for a viewer, seems important.

3. Personalities. Even in just the first few episodes, my husband quickly picked up on their how much their personalities resembled one-another's. As a book reader myself, this wasn't something I noticed, but my husband is convinced that they are very alike.

4. Melisandre. Just all of Melisandre. Actions, especially any and all interactions with Jon. Rhaegar was never King, Robert was. If Melisandre is interested in him for his bloodline, it's not because of Rhaegar. Her visions -- she sees Snow. Melisandre is convinced that Stannis is meant to be King, so there would be no reason for her to connect with Jon unless he was of Baratheon decent.

5. For show watchers, Rhaegar is rarely mentioned. A few conversations here and there, but certainly never anything that, for a show watcher, seems not to lead anywhere but, not all Targaryan's are nuts.

Perhaps the TV show plans to skew from the books on Jon Snow's parents. They've already pulled rather far away from some of the books as is, so maybe Jon is going to have two different outcomes as well.

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Roberts bastard kids DO look very similar to him. Having one that doesn't look like a Baratheon really makes Neds decision that Joff couldn't be Bobby's kid look less credible.

But that's the point - why write yourself into a corner in the first place? Why come up with some genetic "rule" to which your chief mystery doesn't fit? If Jon had at least blue-grey eyes like Benjen and was more muscular than lithe, there's nothing particularly revealing about that and there would be a connection.

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Read that part again in my essay Jon has attributes of Robert the two that matters in fact and it is that for a reason.If he (GRRM) made him look like Robert the typical Robert features that would be a dead give away wouldn't it.I swear you either didn't read  because this is all in the rebuttal or this is a distracting tactic?

 

 

What attributes of Robert does Jon have?

 

Jon is lithe and sinewy; Robert is large and brawny, strong enough to prefer to fight with a war hammer. Jon has brown hair and deep gray eyes; Robert has coal black hair and  blue eyes.

Descriptions of Robert's known bastards show the children have his traits.

[Ned} found himself thinking of Robert more and more. He saw the king as he had been in the flower of his youth, tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god. He heard his laughter in the dark, saw his eyes, blue and clear as mountain lakes

Renly was handsome as Robert had been handsome; long of limb and broad of shoulder, with the same coal-black hair, fine and straight, the same deep blue eyes, the same easy smile.

Yet Edric Storm was three inches taller and broader in the chest and shoulders. He was his father's son in that; nor did he ever miss a morning's work with sword and shield. Those old enough to have known Robert and Renly as children said that the bastard boy had more of their look than Stannis had ever shared; the coal-black hair, the deep blue eyes, the mouth, the jaw, the cheekbones. Only his ears reminded you that his mother had been a Florent.

The master called over a tall lad about Robb's age, his arms and chest corded with muscle. "This is Lord Stark, the new Hand of the King," he told him as the boy looked at Ned through sullen blue eyes and pushed back sweat-soaked hair with his fingers. Thick hair, shaggy and unkempt and black as ink. The shadow of a new beard darkened his jaw. "This is Gendry. Strong for his age, and he works hard

 Mya looked as tough as the old riding leathers she wore beneath her silvery ringmail shirt. Her hair was black as a raven's wing, so short and shaggy that Alayne suspected that she cut it with a dagger. Mya's eyes were her best feature, big and blue. She could be pretty, if she would dress up like a girl. Alayne found herself wondering whether Ser Lothor liked her best in her iron and leather, or dreamed of her gowned in lace and silk. Mya liked to say that her father had been a goat and her mother an owl, but Alayne had gotten the true story from Maddy. Yes, she thought, looking at her now, those are his eyes, and she has his hair too, the thick black hair he shared with Renly.

(Arya meeting Bella) The girl did have hair like the old king's, Arya thought; a great thick mop of it, as black as coal. That doesn't mean anything, though. Gendry has the same kind of hair too. Lots of people have black hair.

Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

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Along with looks, Jon Snow has almost no personality similarities with Robert Baratheon either. Robert is loud, blustery, thoughtless and self-indulgent. Jon is quiet, introspective, sensitive and introverted.

Hmmmm. Jon Snow's personality is very reminiscent of..... Rhaegar Targaryen.

 

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Just checking in again briefly but i will answer these when i get home. But one small thing i'll mention and we can talk about it when i get back.

Ygrain and Scorcher GRRM didn't right himself into a corner it would be silly to have Jon look exactly like Robert that would give away the secret.However i think most of you have gotten thrown by the attributes of Robert's kids as having to only "look" a certain way.

Plus i don't know why answer if you don't read the essay of which is labeld quite clearly and if a lot of people read it and got it then you can too. Read the part explicitly labeld

POINTS OF CONTENTION THAT WILL COME UP AND COUNTERS TO THEM

Almost every question that would come up as rebuttals i've addressed before hand and i've said if i didn't address them don't hesitate to ask.You will find what attributes Jon posses that is unique to Robert and why it is important that he looks like Starks.If he looked like Robert then not only would it not be a mstery but these atrributes wouldn't be clear.

Also read Parallels and connection Jon and Robert

You ever wonder why in the bible it shocked people that Sampson was strong? If he looked like Kai Greene or Phil Heath then there would be no question would there?

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Along with looks, Jon Snow has almost no personality similarities with Robert Baratheon either. Robert is loud, blustery, thoughtless and self-indulgent. Jon is quiet, introspective, sensitive and introverted.

Hmmmm. Jon Snow's personality is very reminiscent of..... Rhaegar Targaryen.

 

No Jon's personality is reminicent of Ned.

Plus i think your thoughts on Robert are biased.

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Ygrain and Scorcher GRRM didn't right himself into a corner it would be silly to have Jon look exactly like Robert that would give away the secret.However i think most of you have gotten thrown by the attributes of Robert's kids as having to only "look" a certain way.

Sigh. Still not getting it. No, of course GRRM couldn't have written Jon having Robert's looks, but if he wanted to make Jon Robert's son and look different than Robert, then he shouldn't have written all of Robert's bastards looking like him and shouldn't have made this family resemblance a plot point for establishing that none of Cersei's children were fathered by Robert. In other words, he shouldn't have cheated the rule that he himself had created and made plot-relevant.

Plus i don't know why answer if you don't read the essay of which is labeld quite clearly and if a lot of people read it and got it then you can too. Read the part explicitly labeld

Dear wolfmaid, as a support of a literary analysis, your "essay" is not doing a very good job, and that's why its points keep being found unsatisfactory. Constantly referring to it as if it was some holy writing does not strengthen your case in any way, rather the contrary, given how many times you were explained one and the same item over and over on many an occasion.

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Dear Ygrain it is doing very well hence the reason the only thing you csn say is its not doing well.

You have failed to come up with any intelligent counters to any points ive made and I know it must be frustrating.

When you come up to an answer as to why Jon demonstrates two attributes unique to Robert let me know.

Otherwise I will continue to say exactly what ive said. Yoy have no counter you were never in the game with the nonsensical arguement you presented.

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