Heresy Project X+Y=J: Robert + Lyanna

Wall Flower · January 14, 2016

Noooo Ygrain Lyanna didn't guard her cunt because her statement to Ned proves that she wasn't going to. Sex was already on the table my dear. Robert could only keep to one bed IF he had a bed to keep to IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Wolfmaid, this does sound a lot like you saying that Lyanna was prepared to have sex with Robert to keep him sweet - I just expressed it a bit more crudely.

In the Winterfell crypts Robert says 'I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her', which certainly suggests that Robert thought Rhaegar was doing something to Lyanna worth killing for before he met the prince on the Trident. I'm guessing it wasn't giving her a lift to the Silent Sisters Home for Unwed Mothers.

We don't know exactly what Brandon thought had happened to his sister but he was calling for Rhaegar to come out and die, not Robert. Cat remembers that he 'heard about Lyanna' and rode to KL. Maybe he thought Lyanna had gone willingly but confronted Rhaegar over the dishonour to his little sister and House Stark.

Both Robb and Jon as said to be 14 when AGOT opens, so not comparable with Theon, who I think is actually 19-20 at the start of the series.

I agree that hair is not the only determinant but all the bastards we see look like Robert, while Jon Snow looks like a Stark.

nanother · January 14, 2016

For the first part of your query it is 100% true culture dictates that the appropriate time for deflowering to take place is the marriage bed.We are on the same page there. The text indicates and i put the evidence upthread that it frequently doesn't happen.For one reason or the other there is a culture of noble women shagging outside of marriage. We see it several times in the text. We also see it is what Joff wanted to do with Sansa; shag her as soon as she had her moonblood and get her pregnant ofcourse he would have married her after he was sure she was pregant and i can see the logic in that.He'd be certain he married someone fertile and they could just play off the date no one would care because whose going to say something.
Which brings me back to Robert and Lyanna and why Ned would be upset and why that entire reasoning makes no difference or sense.Even if Ned suspected this is he going to ask Robert or Lyanna? You see the problem there? it would be innappropriate for him to ask that ;consider his response to Robert after Robert began to pry about Wylla. That's something you won't do because that in itself is a dishonor.
The next question is which one of the idiots, Robert or Lyanna is going to tell anyone they had sex at Harrenhall? Why would they do that? So you see why the question and the logic of Ned or any family member getting upset makes no sense?

The Dany part i'll come back to later......Ygrain and NLG i'll get back to you later as well. For the record i don't have a problem with disagreements hell i welcome it but its got to make sense and the rebuttal with Robert and why he wouldn't shag Lyanna doesn't make sense to its core.The above reason for the 100th time.
They are protected by " don't ask don't tell."
Until someone finds out which someone did.Then s**t might hit the fan.

I'd still like to hear your thoughts on the bolded (how you think the baby swapping happened). Actually, it'd be also helpful if you explained what you think happened with Lyanna after Harrenhal - that's another bit I find difficult to explain.

As for deflowering maidens outside marriage, yes it happens under certain circumstances, and I agree that Harrenhal might just be one of those circumstances for Robert and Lya. However, succumbing to the passion and desire amidst the buzz of spring is a far cry from ...

'I better shag his brains out if I want to keep the man I have no choice about marrying happy'

First off my goal is not to change your mind so that's out.
1. I think you are getting my statements mixed up with Ygrain's.I never said the 1st bolded statement nor was it ever my meaning so that's clearly you and Ygrain's assertion not mind.Robert isn't assuming any such thing.That was an emotional utterance." How many times do you thing he raped your sister,how many hundread of time."

It's not just Ygrain. That's more-or-less how I understood your OP as well, at least on first read. And I did think it was absurd and briefly wondered whether I should just stop reading.

From her statement comes the realization, think about it now that Lyanna knew she would have to and was willing to sleep with Robert from the get go…..Say wuh Wolfmaidare you serious? Keep in mind that Robert has been sexually active for a while and Lyanna knows that, do you think having that info she expected Robert to go without until they got married?Think about the little smile he gave Ned as well. Seriously! Did Robert abstain from sex after their betrothal, OR was he in fact “keeping to one bed-“Lya’s and he didn't have to abstain.From her conversation with Ned she was already putting that on the table. Robert could only keep to one bed if Lyanna was offering hers up for him.

That's very hard to understand any other way than Lya making a calculated choice to shag Robert at every opportunity, so that he has 'one bed' to 'keep to'. Or, if I wanted to be sarcastic, I could put it the same way Wall Flower did.

I think that if you want an honest debate, it'd be more productive to look at what you wrote and see why others might misunderstand you rather than go around accusing people of being willfully ignorant or incapable of critical thinking and calling their concerns nonsensical (no you didn't do any of that in this particular paragraph, and I haven't gotten to the end of the post yet, but there's enough of that in the posts I did read). This especially goes for anything you post from your phone and/or in a hurry, those can be really difficult to understand.

Looking at the wider context of the above paragraph, it gets less absurd, but somewhat confusing. I see 3 main factors, some combination of which might have been enough for Lyanna to consent to sex when Robert finally asked (at Harrenhal at the latest).

1. Robert maybe 'abstaining' for just long enough to impress Lyanna and gain her tentative trust

2. Lyanna actually growing to love Robert over time (whether he abstained or not)

3. Lyanna being so possessive as to 'dishonor' herself for even just a chance of Robert not sleeping around (whether she loves him or not)

3. wouldn't work on its own, but together with 1. and 2. it could possibly play a role. I don't know if you have a specific combination in mind, or if I'm even on the right track, because I don't see it summed up concisely.

wolfmaid7 · January 14, 2016

I'd still like to hear your thoughts on the bolded (how you think the baby swapping happened). Actually, it'd be also helpful if you explained what you think happened with Lyanna after Harrenhal - that's another bit I find difficult to explain.

As for deflowering maidens outside marriage, yes it happens under certain circumstances, and I agree that Harrenhal might just be one of those circumstances for Robert and Lya. However, succumbing to the passion and desire amidst the buzz of spring is a far cry from ...

It's not just Ygrain. That's more-or-less how I understood your OP as well, at least on first read. And I did think it was absurd and briefly wondered whether I should just stop reading.
That's very hard to understand any other way than Lya making a calculated choice to shag Robert at every opportunity, so that he has 'one bed' to 'keep to'. Or, if I wanted to be sarcastic, I could put it the same way Wall Flower did.
I think that if you want an honest debate, it'd be more productive to look at what you wrote and see why others might misunderstand you rather than go around accusing people of being willfully ignorant or incapable of critical thinking and calling their concerns nonsensical (no you didn't do any of that in this particular paragraph, and I haven't gotten to the end of the post yet, but there's enough of that in the posts I did read). This especially goes for anything you post from your phone and/or in a hurry, those can be really difficult to understand.
Looking at the wider context of the above paragraph, it gets less absurd, but somewhat confusing. I see 3 main factors, some combination of which might have been enough for Lyanna to consent to sex when Robert finally asked (at Harrenhal at the latest).
1. Robert maybe 'abstaining' for just long enough to impress Lyanna and gain her tentative trust
2. Lyanna actually growing to love Robert over time (whether he abstained or not)
3. Lyanna being so possessive as to 'dishonor' herself for even just a chance of Robert not sleeping around (whether she loves him or not)
3. wouldn't work on its own, but together with 1. and 2. it could possibly play a role. I don't know if you have a specific combination in mind, or if I'm even on the right track, because I don't see it summed up concisely.

The first bolded is exactly what i said happened.I get frsutrated because i do feel people are being willfully ignorant at times just to be difficult and that's honestly because they didn't read.I said in the essay with a transition of how Lyanna's quote about Robert not keeping to one bed is going to be explained with them being intimate and it was . I'm lookin at the essay right now at the transition so please understand by frustration and my belief that what you were about to do is exactly what people did.They read the first part and said that's it without going further.

Lets take for instance the entire "clues of intimacy" portion of this essay which is segued by Lyanna's quote and the conclusion was excatly # 2 . They grew to love each other over time something i said to keep in mind that they had time.

After each portion there is a sum after that portion there is this for that portion

Sum: Lyanna wed what was well known and loved about Robert (his laughter) to what signified home (Weirwood heart tree) on her shield. As we peel back the onion the picture emerges of two people who had history and a lot in common joined together for politics and despite the bride’s concern and the groom’s past they developed a mutually physical and emotional relationship. Love.

So i'm confused how you and a few others could say its not concise it makes me wonder how some could read it and tell me exactly what i said and why and certain people can't.

Anyways what i was putting forth had nothing to do with Lyanna shagging Robert to keep him from doing it with others.It happened and it did so naturall over time culminating in Harrenhall.

Also there seems to be an expectation that for characters who don't have a POV we are suppose to know exactly what they are thinking which we can never do.This is a simple case of them getting caught up in the atmosphere at the Tourney and it happened.

"It also explains the behavior exhibited by Robert toward the statue told to us from the POV of Ned. These quotes show something that is not seen by any other prospect no matter much you go through the text……physical and emotional INTIMACY."

I would have never put pieces such as the above if it wasn't about a mutually emotional and physical relationship.

wolfmaid7 · January 14, 2016

Nanother this piece i will do a separate post because i'm not sure what you were asking. The baby swap? Which baby swap?You mean between Aemon and Monster?

As to what happened to Lyanna after Harrenhall i think by the time she found out she was pregnant it was to late to do anything about it and the only thing left for her to do was to go into hiding and she had help.

Why wouldn't she tell her family is a given to me she was afraid.And i brought this up the case of Lord Rowan's daughter and Lord Stark's maiden daughter.They did something they knew socially was wrong and chose to pass the buck.Place the blame somewhere else or just not face the music.

Why she didn't tell Robert is something i believe lay in how she thought Robert would react and i think GRRM gave us that answer when Ned told Robert about Barra and her mother. What was Robert's reply?

" I thought the girl had more sense."

As if to say she would know better than to get pregnant.It echoes the mentality of the time as somehow the woman had control over that......I think she would have eventually told Robert though.Just not then.

Hold on a bit...

As to where Lyanna was. I don't know given the description i would say it was secluded and had a flower garden or near a place flowers could be brought to her to keep her comfortable and i believe Ned knew where she was and brought her flowers.That ritual continued after her death.

My interpretation of the bloody bed is different i don't think it was CB because its foundation had to do with the battles that men fought and died in.The battle was their bloody bed.It shouldn't be the bloody bed of women. Asha got chasitzed basically for this because she chose to act the role of men same as Brienne.Their bloody bed would most likely occur because of swords vs CB.This is the contrast and this is what i think happened to her( Lyanna).

About Barra's mother protecting her when the GC came.

"That. Not his fault, my lor - Tyrion. No. He never meant to kill the woman, that was her own doing. He warned her to stand aside and let him do his duty."
“Still... mothers and children, he might have expected she’d try to save the babe.” Tyrion
smiled.

Or even Elia who didn't have to die but tried to stand in the way of her child getting killed but was cut down.

She(Lyanna) died as a man trying to protect Jon and i don't think her foe(s) knew he was a she until it was too late.Jon was taken to Starfall ( because honerable Knights protect the innocent).

This could even work if Lyanna was kidnapped but not by Rhaegar,Aery's order yes. But going back to what i said earlier certain people didn't act as if she was missing when that reaction would have been expected.

nanother · January 14, 2016

Will respond to the previous one somewhat later (or a lot later, switching back and forth between emails and other stuff)

Nanother this piece i will do a separate post because i'm not sure what you were asking. The baby swap? Which baby swap?You mean between Aemon and Monster?

I mean Dany and whoever she might have been swapped with. Thanks

As to what happened to Lyanna after Harrenhall i think by the time she found out she was pregnant it was to late to do anything about it and the only thing left for her to do was to go into hiding and she had help.
Why wouldn't she tell her family is a given to me she was afraid.
Why she didn't tell Robert is something i believe lay in how she thought Robert would react and i think GRRM gave us that answer when Ned told Robert about Barra and her mother. What was Robert's reply?
" I thought the girl had more sense."
As if to say she would know better than to get pregnant.It echoes the mentality of the time as somehow the woman had control over that......
Hold on a bit...

Except Robert was totally in love with Lya and they were going to get married anyway, so why would she assume that? (and Ned said Robert 'doted on' Mya Stone). I'd understand her worrying about her father, but Robert? If hurrying the marriage up was possible at all, that would have been the obvious thing to do,

Gotta go now.

wolfmaid7 · January 14, 2016

Will respond to the previous one somewhat later (or a lot later, switching back and forth between emails and other stuff)
I mean Dany and whoever she might have been swapped with. Thanks
Except Robert was totally in love with Lya and they were going to get married anyway, so why would she assume that? (and Ned said Robert 'doted on' Mya Stone). I'd understand her worrying about her father, but Robert? If hurrying the marriage up was possible at all, that would have been the obvious thing to do,
Gotta go now.

Oh i see Dany.......

I don't think she was swapped with anyone per se. I'm of two minds on it, only slight variables that have me 50/50 on it and it's more how it flows better than the other.In a nutshell Dany is actually Rhaegar's daughter and she was who was passed off as Visery's sister.

Lyanna would and could assume that if Robert as in the case of Barra expected her( at 16) to be sensible about that and not get preggers.Which blows what happened at Harrenhall out the water.Her family would know how would that affect things socially and also politically if Robert was going to be King and that was already in the works.His heir would be not born from a marriage bed but a bed of lies and deceit.

I think all these things and more were probably running through her mind and she just panicked instead of just facing the music of what happened.

It happens today still girl gets pregnant its a sicky situation and it what's my family going to think and do what's the baby's father going to think and do? The fact that these people love you and we'll figure things out seldom come into play.

nanother · January 14, 2016

The first bolded is exactly what i said happened.I get frsutrated because i do feel people are being willfully ignorant at times just to be difficult and that's honestly because they didn't read.I said in the essay with a transition of how Lyanna's quote about Robert not keeping to one bed is going to be explained with them being intimate and it was . I'm lookin at the essay right now at the transition so please understand by frustration and my belief that what you were about to do is exactly what people did.They read the first part and said that's it without going further.
Lets take for instance the entire "clues of intimacy" portion of this essay which is segued by Lyanna's quote and the conclusion was excatly # 2 . They grew to love each other over time something i said to keep in mind that they had time.
After each portion there is a sum after that portion there is this for that portion
Sum: Lyanna wed what was well known and loved about Robert (his laughter) to what signified home (Weirwood heart tree) on her shield. As we peel back the onion the picture emerges of two people who had history and a lot in common joined together for politics and despite the bride’s concern and the groom’s past they developed a mutually physical and emotional relationship. Love.

Oops. I did miss a crucial word or two in that quote on re-read :blush:

OK, my bad there, apologies.

However, I maintain that the argument before (including the paragraph I quoted) did more to distract from that conclusion than to lead to it (as far as I'm concerned). So I'm not at all surprised that people not actively trying to agree with you don't get past those 'wtf' bits. I made the effort, because I'm going several extra miles to compensate for any RLJ bias I might have.

nanother · January 14, 2016

Oh i see Dany.......
I don't think she was swapped with anyone per se. I'm of two minds on it, only slight variables that have me 50/50 on it and it's more how it flows better than the other.In a nutshell Dany is actually Rhaegar's daughter and she was who was passed off as Visery's sister.

Lyanna would and could assume that if Robert as in the case of Barra expected her( at 16) to be sensible about that and not get preggers.Which blows what happened at Harrenhall out the water.Her family would know how would that affect things socially and also politically if Robert was going to be King and that was already in the works.His heir would be not born from a marriage bed but a bed of lies and deceit.
I think all these things and more were probably running through her mind and she just panicked.

Not if they get married in time. It's precisely running away that will ensure the kid will be a bastard. Also, I'm not sure I buy the panic argument. Say you have sex, say your next moon blood doesn't come, say your first reaction is panic - makes sense so far ... but then you sit down and realise that there's still time before anyone notices anything. Of course, it could be logistically difficult to get married in time (Robert and Ned would likely be in the Vale, this is no safe subject for ravens), so yeah, maybe she panicked and run away. But I'm strongly leaning towards either abduction or something else that kept her from reaching Robert.

My interpretation of the bloody bed is different i don't think it was CB because its foundation had to do with the battles that men fought and died in.The battle was their bloody bed.It shouldn't be the bloody bed of women. Asha got chasitzed basically for this because she chose to act the role of men same as Brienne.Their bloody bed would most likely occur because of swords vs CB.This is the contrast and this is what i think happened to her( Lyanna).

I heartily agree with this. I think there were enough parallels made between women/childbirth and men/battle throughout the book to set up this possibility. I'm sad to see that it keeps getting dismissed.

About Barra's mother protecting her when the GC came.
Or even Elia who didn't have to die but tried to stand in the way of her child getting killed but was cut down.
She(Lyanna) died as a man trying to protect Jon and i don't think her foe(s) knew he was a she until it was too late.Jon was taken to Starfall ( because honerable Knights protect the innocent).

Very possible.

This could even work if Lyanna was kidnapped but not by Rhaegar,Aery's order yes. But going back to what i said earlier certain people didn't act as if she was missing when that reaction would have been expected.

1. those bits can be explained away if necessary (though I think you're right to be suspicious of them)

2. she can be kidnapped or held captive while people still know (or think they know) where she is. See Tyrion/Eyrie for one, or Jaime in Riverrun.

wolfmaid7 · January 15, 2016

Not if they get married in time. It's precisely running away that will ensure the kid will be a bastard. Also, I'm not sure I buy the panic argument. Say you have sex, say your next moon blood doesn't come, say your first reaction is panic - makes sense so far ... but then you sit down and realise that there's still time before anyone notices anything. Of course, it could be logistically difficult to get married in time (Robert and Ned would likely be in the Vale, this is no safe subject for ravens), so yeah, maybe she panicked and run away. But I'm strongly leaning towards either abduction or something else that kept her from reaching Robert.

I heartily agree with this. I think there were enough parallels made between women/childbirth and men/battle throughout the book to set up this possibility. I'm sad to see that it keeps getting dismissed.
Very possible.
1. those bits can be explained away if necessary (though I think you're right to be suspicious of them)
2. she can be kidnapped or held captive while people still know (or think they know) where she is. See Tyrion/Eyrie for one, or Jaime in Riverrun.

First para and bolded that's the reason for me saying its possible she was abducted but has me leaning against that is again going back to Brandon and Ned's reaction especially. I will sync Cat and Jamie's recollection and how it appears.Cat says Brandon learned about Lyanna.It had already been established in the text that Lyanna was "kidnapped/Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna" yet this adds a bit of ambiguity to what exactly did Brandon hear. If he heard his sister was kidnapped by Rhaegar then the first thing one would expect is for him to enquire about her or demand her back. Instead he calls for Rhaegar to come out and die.

We then have Ned internal thoughts where he went to fight the last wars in the south.What's impossible is no one thought of her once and we can't forget from Ned's own mouth the reason they rose against the Targs was tho stop the murder of children.So again she wasn't even hinted about.These things make me believe that atleast Ned knew where Lyanna was and always was.

Not to say that the kidnapping isn't possibe but lets look on Rhaegar's side he never mentions Lyanna to anyone not once.Then we have the curious parting words with Jamie where his tone towards his reference to Robert is way off. You kidnap Lyanna or runoff with her and are all "my royal sire is more fearful of your father than he is of our cousin Robert." That is very off for someone who just kidnapped his cousin girlfriend or had anything at all to do with her disappearence.

Back to how easy it would have been for everything to be made ok if the marriage with Lyanna and Robert had happened sooner.This goes towards running away would ensure the child would be a bastard.I disagree on that because of Jon not being made in a marriage bed.See > "Why the secrecy if he's Robert's bastard." He would have that stigma no matter what if people knew and people would know and that has a lot to do with Robert having gone back to the Erie.

For someone thinking rationally and having all the variables with them they could pull the wool over everyone's eyes.

For instance what Joff tried to pull with, Sansa he was willing to have sex with her and get her preggers as soon as she had her moonblood.They ofcourse would easily be able to pull it off because Joff was right there and they could call a marriage and no one would think of it and even if anyone suspected no one would say anything.

i don't think Lyanna sat down and thought this through.We have seen it in this seres time and time again with girls making rash decisions because of that or the other.Arya and Sansa for one and a few others.Lyanna may not have realized she missed her moonblood we seen that happen especially if there is a lot going on we lose track of that.By the time she realized this is what's happening its all bad and all to late.Not going to tell daddy,and this is something you really don't want to put in raven mail for Robert.

I'm still of the belief based on Robert's reply about Barra that he may have had this expectation of Lyanna and voiced it for all the reasons laid out socially.Its damage control.

Kingmonkey · January 15, 2016

.It easy to explain this with GRRM made a mistake but no he didn't.Think about the comparison to Rhaegar and Baelor the blessed and you have your answer.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Is this about no woman wanting Baelor the blessed in her bed? Two problems with that.

First: "Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him." Operative word here, until. Rhaegar was only likened to Baelor as a child, but then something changed him. As an adult, he was no longer likened to Baelor. Nor can this really be a reference to Baelor's chastity, as this was Rhaegar as a child, being bookish.

Second: even if Ned did think of Rhaegar as being a bit of a Baelor, in contrast to Robert, that still doesn't answer the question as to why he would have thought of Rhaegar in that situation, rather than for example Baelor himself. Rhaegar is not on Ned's mind. Why think of him there?

1.We have your Stark essay coming up next.I don't think the TLJ is exactly that but as Feather put it more on who could have been behind her disappearance.The Ned Ashara was just a collection of quotes and Voice i think was suppose to put an essay together.

I was hoping NA would come together. TL I am hoping to see, Melisandra did some revisions in anticipation of it coming here.

2. Your next point about why wouldn't he tells his kids.That's not what GRRM showed us though.Its very plausible Ned told all the kids about Robert greatest feats.Just as he could have told all the kids about the COTF and the LH.Yet that is not who he chose to do.He chose particular POV's to relay these info and we see as i explained Bran's arch connecting with Ned's story.Jon whether people want to admit it or not is being connected to Robert.

We don't see it happening, but we don't see it not happening. There's no reason to assume that something one of Ned's children recalls Ned talking about was exclusive to that child. That's an unlikely circumstance unless there's some external reason to think it happened. Bran's PoV is where we hear about the COTF and the LH, but why assume that only Bran heard this stuff? It would be completely superfluous to have more than one PoV refer to the same information.

As for the question of PoVs, that's an interesting one. However, consider how we find out about Rhaegar through Jaime's PoV, and Ashara through Arya's, for example. GRRM builds his narrative up in layers, using multiple PoVs to give us different parts of a jigsaw puzzle. We should expect clues to Jon's parentage to come not from a single PoV, but from multiple ones. Thus we have the Bael story from Jon, the KoTL story from Bran, the Ashara story from Arya, and so on.

3. Kingmonkey read that stable boy quote again by me.I never said Rhaegar was the stable boy i said "Lyanna was" and that suits even though the gender has has been reversed.Also the notion of it not being appropriate to refer to a LPD as lower class consider this is exactly what Aerys did when Tywin proposed Cersie for Rhaegar.

I already answered that. Lyanna is at the peak of the Westerosi social strata. GRRM is talking about fictional characters overcoming a huge difference in social standing that never happened in reality. Princess and stableboy. Not Prince and joint most eligible noble woman in the entire realm.

Cersei was on the same social stratum as Lyanna, but Aerys' dismissal was not a bearing on real social distinctions, it was purely a put-down of Tywin. Rheager married Elia, who is also on the same social strata. In fact Lyanna, as the oldest daughter of a Lord Paramount, is closer to the prince's own social position than normal. Aerys' mother, for example, was of a lower social position than Lyanna, as had been the spouses of several kings before her. The only possible higher status coupling in Targ eyes would be with another Targ, but there wasn't one available.

We also have one very clear example that shows GRRM does not entirely avoid this trope: Duncan and Jenny. Jenny indeed could be considered the "stable boy" in that situation (her claim to be descended from ancient kings was not widely believed in court).

4.Kingmonkey you are 100% correct Lyanna was speaking in future tense i never proposed when she had the conversation with Ned that they were shagging then. I simply said that connotatively she was alright with when it happened and whenever it would happen. In this case the future was at Harren hall.

We can't exclude the possibility that Lyanna changed her mind, of course. However the context of this is quite clear: at the time she said it, Lyanna did not believe that sharing a bed with Robert would make Robert stay to one bed. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature". Our only textual evidence for Lyanna's attitude is entirely opposed to your suggestion that she would have slept with Robert to make him keep to one bed.

5. With respect to the horned god and if Rhaegar crwoning her meant that he had sex with her.Well a couple of things, that would be a problematic scenario fro RLJ as his actions are indicating that sex "already happened" and from a mythical point of view that physically was indicated by the shield hanging in the tree which Prince Rhaegar found. That would be the moment he knew so he didn't have sex with her.
So because he crowned her in front of her brothers doesn't mean he crowned her,it had happened as indicated by the pole/laurel.As indicated by his role as the wicker man all this done after the act.And Rhaegar is far from the archetype and the narrative of that archetype as one can get.

I'm still struggling with this. Rhaegar crowned her. Rhaegar was the guy with the pole/laurel. Robert did none of these things. So if it causes a problem for RLJ because this may be an indicator that they had already done the deed, wouldn't it be even more of a problem for Robert+Lyanna, when Robert never gives her the laurel?

It seems to me that if we look at HH with this symbolism, we are set up for Robert to be the Horned King, who marries the queen of May/moon maiden/whatever -- but Rhaegar supplants him. Robert should have been the one to crown Lyanna, but he was too busy drinking, and nobody was expecting Rhaegar to pick Lyanna as QoLaB. Rhaegar stole Robert's role as Horned King, by performing the part of the ritual that the Horned King should have performed. By extension, shouldn't we expect Rhaegar, rather than Robert, to be the one who gets the girl? As further evidence that Robert should be seen as having been supplanted in his role as the Horned King, consider his death by boar. The hunting of a boar is a common mythic theme for the horned king, yet Robert is killed by a boar. He's a failed Horned King.

It seems to me that this symbolism actually strengthens the case of RLJ, by echoing the story of Rhaegar taking Lyanna away from Robert in the way Rhaegar takes Robert's role in the May ritual.

6.As to why think of Rhaegar if he has nothing to do with the situation.I believe Rhaegar does play a part but it has nothing to do with him being Jon's father but what he did during the Harrenhall tourney.Rhaegar dissed Lyanna infront of her brothers for an act that was not lady like.Lyanna was a direct contrast to every maiden there in that she didn't act like a maiden.She didn't act like the delicate flower Elia was,or the maiden Ashara was. There is a reason why Rhaegar was compared to Baelor the blessed?

Answered above.

7.Let's look at what i said Lannisters in general narratively are the threat,Tywin would have been. He wouldbe the lord with ambition for a daughter.And Ned knew him- and what he would do enough to say when Robert was speaking about Robert Aryn going to foster with him-to say he would rather trust a child to a viper than to Tywin Lannister.

Certainly Ned would not want a bastard son of Robert's raised in the Lannister nest of vipers, but that's not the question. Would he believe that the Lannisters would be such a threat to Robert's bastards as to think it necessary to lie about Jon being Robert's son to protect him?

"I've also heard whispers that Robert got a pair of twins on a serving wench at Casterly Rock, three years ago when he went west for Lord Tywin's tourney. Cersei had the babes killed, and sold the mother to a passing slaver. Too much an affront to Lannister pride, that close to home."
Ned Stark grimaced. Ugly tales like that were told of every great lord in the realm. He could believe it of Cersei Lannister readily enough . . . but would the king stand by and let it happen? The Robert he had known would not have, but the Robert he had known had never been so practiced at shutting his eyes to things he did not wish to see.
AGoT Ch.35

The above (italics mine) show that Ned's belief is that Robert would not have allowed such harm to come to his bastard children. We also have this:

Cersei could not have been pleased by her lord husband's by-blows, yet in the end it mattered little whether the king had one bastard or a hundred. Law and custom gave the baseborn few rights. Gendry, the girl in the Vale, the boy at Storm's End, none of them could threaten Robert's trueborn children...
AGoT ch.30

Direct from Ned's own thoughts, Ned did not consider Cersei a threat to Robert's bastards. Tywin's name doesn't even come up in his consideration of the subject.

It's pretty clear that Ned did not think that there was any particular danger to Robert's bastards. That suggestion is clearly contradicted in Ned's own thoughts, so we're left with the question of why, in the Robert+Lyanna scenario, Ned didn't tell Robert.

Honestly I think you'd be making a more persuasive case here if you held that the kidnapping did happen as expected, and that Ned believed erroneously that Rhaegar was the father.

8 Kingmonkey everyone of you sidestep this like a Sidewinder in a desert. The theory is not resting on Visery's account.It is supporting evidence.The fact of the matter is Jon's parentage rests on that cloaked figure which Jamie saw as being Rhaella.You guys are wrong on that one and that some of you all are clinging to that is denial.Rhaella alreay left KL. That was a decoy.

There's literally zero evidence of this claim. Not everyone who wears a hood must necessarily be someone else in disguise. On the contrary, Rhaella is widely reported as being in Dragonstone, by people such as Stannis, who would have known.

9. Stannis doesn't confim anything and let's say Dany arrives at DS from say Dorne and she was 2yrs old she's still be considered a babe. By the way let's say for the sake of this arguement that Viserys mixed up which ship took him where.It doesn't change that Dany could have been brought from Dorne to DS and then smuggled with him to Bravos.So we can talk around this but there is reason to doubt this just looking at Dany alone.
a. Her memories are of Dorne her connections are there.
b. Big one that none of you can't dispute is that Rhaella wasn't who Jamie saw.

See the quote in my post where Alleras specifically describes Dany as born on Dragonstone before the fall, and the story is already known to Mollander. Her title Stormborn, well known in Westeros, tells us the same thing. Ned refers to Dany as a 14 year old girl, 14 years after the fall of Dragonstone. Literally account we've been given has Dany being born on Dragonstone, the idea that Stannis referred to her as a babe even though she was 2 makes no sense - he calls her a babe because, like everyone else, he thinks she was newly born on Dragonstone.

a. IF her memories are of Dorne, then this must be after her time on Dragonstone, not before it. Everyone agrees she was born on Dragonstone.

b. I have yet to see a case made for this, so I don't know how the case can be disputed. The only evidence for the claim that Jaime saw someone other than Rhaella is that she was wearing a hood so maybe she was someone else. The red priestess accompanying Stannis that Cat met had her face shadowed by a hood; does that mean that nobody can dispute it wasn't Melisandre that Cat saw? Obviously not.

Rhaella is widely attested to have been sent to Dragonstone on that day. Jaime met a woman he believed to be Rhaella, setting out for Dragonstone. She was hooded, so potentially could have been someone else, but her maids gave Jaime an explanation for that. Later, Rhaella was widely attested to be on Dragonstone, where she was meant to be. So where is the reason to think that everyone was wrong and it wasn't Rhaella?

Rhaenys_Targaryen · January 15, 2016

I'm behind on posting here, but quickly two small things:

Cersei was on the same social stratum as Lyanna, but Aerys' dismissal was not a bearing on real social distinctions, it was purely a put-down of Tywin. Rheager married Elia, who is also on the same social strata. In fact Lyanna, as the oldest daughter of a Lord Paramount, is closer to the prince's own social position than normal. Aerys' mother, for example, was of a lower social position than Lyanna, as had been the spouses of several kings before her. The only possible higher status coupling in Targ eyes would be with another Targ, but there wasn't one available.
We also have one very clear example that shows GRRM does not entirely avoid this trope: Duncan and Jenny. Jenny indeed could be considered the "stable boy" in that situation (her claim to be descended from ancient kings was not widely believed in court).

How was Shaera Targaryen of a lower social position than Lyanna? Do you perhaps mean Aerys's grandmother, Lady (and later Queen) Betha Blackwood?

As to Duncan and Jenny.. that one is indeed closer to the stableboy story. But with a very bitter ending, as Duncan first lost his right to the crown, prophecy next made its appearance, and all ended in fire, with Duncan and others close to him dead...

There's literally zero evidence of this claim. Not everyone who wears a hood must necessarily be someone else in disguise. On the contrary, Rhaella is widely reported as being in Dragonstone, by people such as Stannis, who would have known.
See the quote in my post where Alleras specifically describes Dany as born on Dragonstone before the fall, and the story is already known to Mollander. Her title Stormborn, well known in Westeros, tells us the same thing. Ned refers to Dany as a 14 year old girl, 14 years after the fall of Dragonstone. Literally account we've been given has Dany being born on Dragonstone, the idea that Stannis referred to her as a babe even though she was 2 makes no sense - he calls her a babe because, like everyone else, he thinks she was newly born on Dragonstone.
a. IF her memories are of Dorne, then this must be after her time on Dragonstone, not before it. Everyone agrees she was born on Dragonstone.
b. I have yet to see a case made for this, so I don't know how the case can be disputed. The only evidence for the claim that Jaime saw someone other than Rhaella is that she was wearing a hood so maybe she was someone else. The red priestess accompanying Stannis that Cat met had her face shadowed by a hood; does that mean that nobody can dispute it wasn't Melisandre that Cat saw? Obviously not.
Rhaella is widely attested to have been sent to Dragonstone on that day. Jaime met a woman he believed to be Rhaella, setting out for Dragonstone. She was hooded, so potentially could have been someone else, but her maids gave Jaime an explanation for that. Later, Rhaella was widely attested to be on Dragonstone, where she was meant to be. So where is the reason to think that everyone was wrong and it wasn't Rhaella?

The thing with Rhaella is, that if she left on another day as Jaime believes she did, it cannot have gone unnoticed. No matter whether she left earlier or later, her maids will have known. People will have seen her.

That she was wearing a hood, considering the injuries she had, is not out of the ordinary.

Kingmonkey · January 15, 2016

I'm behind on posting here, but quickly two small things:
How was Shaera Targaryen of a lower social position than Lyanna? Do you perhaps mean Aerys's grandmother, Lady (and later Queen) Betha Blackwood?

Indeed I did. I keep forgetting Jaehaerys.

As to Duncan and Jenny.. that one is indeed closer to the stableboy story. But with a very bitter ending, as Duncan first lost his right to the crown, prophecy next made its appearance, and all ended in fire, with Duncan and others close to him dead...

Dammit Rhaenys, you're right. Just what happened to Rhaegar. I guess Lyanna was the stable-boy after all!

Rhaenys_Targaryen · January 15, 2016

Indeed I did. I keep forgetting Jaehaerys.

That poor guy

Dammit Rhaenys, you're right. Just what happened to Rhaegar. I guess Lyanna was the stable-boy after all!

Well, she did enjoy horseback riding On a more serious note, the stable-boy thing is of course about a lower class person and an upper class person running off together and everything somehow working out in the end.

With the Lyanna scenario, of course, that is absolutely not what happened. A war was the result, and the deaths of so many people, including those two who started it all. Nor can Lyanna really be considered to be lower class than Rhaegar, in the sense that the trope requires. In a different scenario, where Elia was not available, and Robert and Lyanna had not (yet) been betrothed, Lyanna might have very well been chosen as a bride for Rhaegar, had Aerys had had the patience to wait a few more years.

wolfmaid7 · January 15, 2016

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Is this about no woman wanting Baelor the blessed in her bed? Two problems with that.
First: "Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him." Operative word here, until. Rhaegar was only likened to Baelor as a child, but then something changed him. As an adult, he was no longer likened to Baelor. Nor can this really be a reference to Baelor's chastity, as this was Rhaegar as a child, being bookish.
Second: even if Ned did think of Rhaegar as being a bit of a Baelor, in contrast to Robert, that still doesn't answer the question as to why he would have thought of Rhaegar in that situation, rather than for example Baelor himself. Rhaegar is not on Ned's mind. Why think of him there?
I was hoping NA would come together. TL I am hoping to see, Melisandra did some revisions in anticipation of it coming here.
We don't see it happening, but we don't see it not happening. There's no reason to assume that something one of Ned's children recalls Ned talking about was exclusive to that child. That's an unlikely circumstance unless there's some external reason to think it happened. Bran's PoV is where we hear about the COTF and the LH, but why assume that only Bran heard this stuff? It would be completely superfluous to have more than one PoV refer to the same information.
As for the question of PoVs, that's an interesting one. However, consider how we find out about Rhaegar through Jaime's PoV, and Ashara through Arya's, for example. GRRM builds his narrative up in layers, using multiple PoVs to give us different parts of a jigsaw puzzle. We should expect clues to Jon's parentage to come not from a single PoV, but from multiple ones. Thus we have the Bael story from Jon, the KoTL story from Bran, the Ashara story from Arya, and so on.
I already answered that. Lyanna is at the peak of the Westerosi social strata. GRRM is talking about fictional characters overcoming a huge difference in social standing that never happened in reality. Princess and stableboy. Not Prince and joint most eligible noble woman in the entire realm.
Cersei was on the same social stratum as Lyanna, but Aerys' dismissal was not a bearing on real social distinctions, it was purely a put-down of Tywin. Rheager married Elia, who is also on the same social strata. In fact Lyanna, as the oldest daughter of a Lord Paramount, is closer to the prince's own social position than normal. Aerys' mother, for example, was of a lower social position than Lyanna, as had been the spouses of several kings before her. The only possible higher status coupling in Targ eyes would be with another Targ, but there wasn't one available.
We also have one very clear example that shows GRRM does not entirely avoid this trope: Duncan and Jenny. Jenny indeed could be considered the "stable boy" in that situation (her claim to be descended from ancient kings was not widely believed in court).
We can't exclude the possibility that Lyanna changed her mind, of course. However the context of this is quite clear:  at the time she said it, Lyanna did not believe that sharing a bed with Robert would make Robert stay to one bed. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature". Our only textual evidence for Lyanna's attitude is entirely opposed to your suggestion that she would have slept with Robert to make him keep to one bed.
I'm still struggling with this. Rhaegar crowned her. Rhaegar was the guy with the pole/laurel. Robert did none of these things. So if it causes a problem for RLJ because this may be an indicator that they had already done the deed, wouldn't it be even more of a problem for Robert+Lyanna, when Robert never gives her the laurel?
It seems to me that if we look at HH with this symbolism, we are set up for Robert to be the Horned King, who marries the queen of May/moon maiden/whatever -- but Rhaegar supplants him. Robert should have been the one to crown Lyanna, but he was too busy drinking, and nobody was expecting Rhaegar to pick Lyanna as QoLaB. Rhaegar stole Robert's role as Horned King, by performing the part of the ritual that the Horned King should have performed. By extension, shouldn't we expect Rhaegar, rather than Robert, to be the one who gets the girl? As further evidence that Robert should be seen as having been supplanted in his role as the Horned King, consider his death by boar. The hunting of a boar is a common mythic theme for the horned king, yet Robert is killed by a boar. He's a failed Horned King.
It seems to me that this symbolism actually strengthens the case of RLJ, by echoing the story of Rhaegar taking Lyanna away from Robert in the way Rhaegar takes Robert's role in the May ritual.
Answered above.
Certainly Ned would not want a bastard son of Robert's raised in the Lannister nest of vipers, but that's not the question. Would he believe that the Lannisters would be such a threat to Robert's bastards as to think it necessary to lie about Jon being Robert's son to protect him?
The above (italics mine) show that Ned's belief is that Robert would not have allowed such harm to come to his bastard children. We also have this:
Direct from Ned's own thoughts, Ned did not consider Cersei a threat to Robert's bastards. Tywin's name doesn't even come up in his consideration of the subject.
It's pretty clear that Ned did not think that there was any particular danger to Robert's bastards. That suggestion is clearly contradicted in Ned's own thoughts, so we're left with the question of why, in the Robert+Lyanna scenario, Ned didn't tell Robert.
Honestly I think you'd be making a more persuasive case here if you held that the kidnapping did happen as expected, and that Ned believed erroneously that Rhaegar was the father.
There's literally zero evidence of this claim. Not everyone who wears a hood must necessarily be someone else in disguise. On the contrary, Rhaella is widely reported as being in Dragonstone, by people such as Stannis, who would have known.
See the quote in my post where Alleras specifically describes Dany as born on Dragonstone before the fall, and the story is already known to Mollander. Her title Stormborn, well known in Westeros, tells us the same thing. Ned refers to Dany as a 14 year old girl, 14 years after the fall of Dragonstone. Literally account we've been given has Dany being born on Dragonstone, the idea that Stannis referred to her as a babe even though she was 2 makes no sense - he calls her a babe because, like everyone else, he thinks she was newly born on Dragonstone.
a. IF her memories are of Dorne, then this must be after her time on Dragonstone, not before it. Everyone agrees she was born on Dragonstone.
b. I have yet to see a case made for this, so I don't know how the case can be disputed. The only evidence for the claim that Jaime saw someone other than Rhaella is that she was wearing a hood so maybe she was someone else. The red priestess accompanying Stannis that Cat met had her face shadowed by a hood; does that mean that nobody can dispute it wasn't Melisandre that Cat saw? Obviously not.
Rhaella is widely attested to have been sent to Dragonstone on that day. Jaime met a woman he believed to be Rhaella, setting out for Dragonstone. She was hooded, so potentially could have been someone else, but her maids gave Jaime an explanation for that. Later, Rhaella was widely attested to be on Dragonstone, where she was meant to be. So where is the reason to think that everyone was wrong and it wasn't Rhaella?

No its not about Robert's statement. Its about the characterization of Rhaegar compared to Baelor.You are right in saying that Rhaegar did change in order to probably fullfil the idealization of TPTWP.But i'm speaking of Baelor's idea about a woman how they should dress and act.Here is where i believe Rhaegar remained constant and is like Baelor and in flows with what he did to Lyanna at Harrenhal.Which was not about admiration but a form of mockery.

As to why think of Rhaegar then and there it was a sarcastic thought and that in itself is an explanation given the surroundings.I don't know why Ned would think of Baelor when Rhaegar suits just fine and his (Rhaegar's) actions is an experiance that Ned shared by having been on the recieving end.

Yeah the Ned Ashara would have been a nice addition and i'm still hoping Voice or anyone for that matter could build on the quotes Voice put together.I myself am just to busy and with this new Zika virus causing havoc i might be traveling again soon.

Warning: If anyone is preggers and they know anyone who is and they are thinking about heading to the Caribbean or Latin America for warmer climate this winter....Do not go.

To your question about the Crowning the answer is no.Because the Crowning in this story is a separate issue and it has nothing to do with the ritual directly.The Crowning just identifies Lyanna as the goddess figure.It doesn't matter who gives her the Circlet. In real life and a lot of Traditions its the high priest/ess who may be the head of the coven or her father.Its a declaration that says this maiden is a woman and fertile.

The fact that Rhaegar had the pole with Circlet on it again doesn't matter .First because while he matches two other archetypes at the ritual he doesn't match the horned god and as the ritual continues nothing he does indicates that he usuped Robert. He infact follows the arch of the Wicker man closely.

Secondly,Rhaegar couldn't steal Robert's role to crown Lyanna because that wasn't Robert's role he already did what he was suppose to do which was do the sacred marriage indicated by the maypole as already having taken place.Rhaegar's role and his second archetype is that of the chorus the one(s) to recite what happen. Though in life the reteeling of this is done in happiness and hope.Its not done hear for the same reason hence one of the difference.

You don't understand the story hence the reason you would see Robert's death by bore as him failing.No actually.It was his time to set so his son to rise and it was a beautiful imagery presented by George.Robert's having worn green doublet with earth smudged to it symbolizing that the torch had been passed. The horned god is suppose to die and rise again same blood same line.So no i'm sorry it doesn't do anything for RLJ because Robert's end was suppose to happen and it happen by the hand of really no man.The hunt took him out.

Yes he would at the point in time of seeing Tywin lay dead children at Robert's feet.But i think you are missing the point i made.The Lannisters as i said just happened to be that face anyone with ambition for a daughter/neice/grandaughter would be a threat.A legitimized bastard would be Robert's heir and no woman married to Robert might take kindly to having her kids play second fiddle to a bastard.Hell even the Faith might have something to say about that.

And Robert what would he say to use Varys train of thought Robert would say " let the Mofos try to kill my son." We keep thinking as if these people weren't penned to be more or less realistic.Ned was wrong in that he never gave Robert a choice because he took the choice away from him the moment he saw who surrounded Robert.That choice was made in the heat of anger for Ned and he never looked back.And over time it would be nuts to think that Ned's own feeling for Jon didn't get in the way. Jon became his.

Kingmonkey noooo Stannis wouldn't have known anything of a sort how? People would have told them that?Everything we hear is given to us second hand and its not much.Plus as i said Dany could still have been brought from somewhere else to Dragonstone and all else hold true. But the fact is we hear nothing about Rhaella and we certainly can't vouch for here being pregant at all because that's all hearsay.

I have no problems with the kidnapping angle being the case though i really doubt it . I think what i'm saying is persuasive not to you but it is. You don't behave the way Ned,Brandon did if Lyanna was missing.Could be she was kidnapped but i'm saying Rhaegar had nothing to do with her disappearance one way or the other.

Kingmonkey seriously though if that is all GRRM wanted to us to come away with he would have never took the time to describe Rhaella's garb.Jamie saw Rhaella clombing into the Royal wheelhouse and that would have been the end of it.But no he placed an element in meant to have us question if it was her.

Cersie when she dressed up all hooded and passed of as a peasent girl or was it a wench to see Jamie.Jon snow having the NW members raise their hood so their face could be seen by the wildlings and this is just a couple.These are done so no one could see who is beneath.

This is another stretch and another missing of the subtle. Jamie gives no time period between him hearing Rhaella scream in her rooms from Aery's rape to the time he saw that figure leave. He said said he saw Rahella after that when she left for Dragonstone. So what was the time frame??? We have no clue.

And also a Hood and cloak is over kill for hiding bruises on her arms and thighs her medieval dress would be quite suffice. King monkey it wasn't her.

Everyone believes she was born on Dragonstone because that is what they were led to believe.Were they all there?

I'm behind on posting here, but quickly two small things:
How was Shaera Targaryen of a lower social position than Lyanna? Do you perhaps mean Aerys's grandmother, Lady (and later Queen) Betha Blackwood?
As to Duncan and Jenny.. that one is indeed closer to the stableboy story. But with a very bitter ending, as Duncan first lost his right to the crown, prophecy next made its appearance, and all ended in fire, with Duncan and others close to him dead...

The thing with Rhaella is, that if she left on another day as Jaime believes she did, it cannot have gone unnoticed. No matter whether she left earlier or later, her maids will have known. People will have seen her.
That she was wearing a hood, considering the injuries she had, is not out of the ordinary.

No they wouldn't have, consider the story of Daenys and Baelor the Blessed. He locked her up in a tower and how did she get out? Rhaella had two Septon sleep with her day and night if she wanted to pull a fast one baby dress up as a septon etc she could.

See post to Kingmonkey about that.

1. Injuries didn't need a hooded cloak to hide

2. There's no time period given between "Rhaella" getting raped and tyhe figure leaving for DS.

Indeed I did. I keep forgetting Jaehaerys.
Dammit Rhaenys, you're right. Just what happened to Rhaegar. I guess Lyanna was the stable-boy after all!

Yeah she was the stable boy- ergo Rhaegar didn't run off with her.

That poor guy
Well, she did enjoy horseback riding On a more serious note, the stable-boy thing is of course about a lower class person and an upper class person running off together and everything somehow working out in the end.
With the Lyanna scenario, of course, that is absolutely not what happened. A war was the result, and the deaths of so many people, including those two who started it all. Nor can Lyanna really be considered to be lower class than Rhaegar, in the sense that the trope requires. In a different scenario, where Elia was not available, and Robert and Lyanna had not (yet) been betrothed, Lyanna might have very well been chosen as a bride for Rhaegar, had Aerys had had the patience to wait a few more years.

No that quote wasn't about that RT you putting sauce on dry rice.That's not what that quote was about.

And yes she is in a lower class than Rhaegar and it does fit .He a prince would not run off with someone beneath him.

1. He married royalty

2. His father refused to marry him to Cersie because he saw Tywin as a servant

3. Look who the Lannisters see themselves( as lions) compared to others and see how Dany(as a Dragon) see herself. We think all this postering Lions not bowing to Lambs and Dragons fracking everyone comes from!!!

For goodness sake Rhaegar reffered to Jamie as a crutch,a crutch !!!

Nuff said.

The Ned's Little Girl · January 15, 2016

Rhaella is widely attested to have been sent to Dragonstone on that day. Jaime met a woman he believed to be Rhaella, setting out for Dragonstone. She was hooded, so potentially could have been someone else, but her maids gave Jaime an explanation for that. Later, Rhaella was widely attested to be on Dragonstone, where she was meant to be. So where is the reason to think that everyone was wrong and it wasn't Rhaella?

You've hit the nail squarely on the head with what I think is the biggest problem with all of these series of essays, with the exception of the R+L=J one.

Assertions are made (it wasn't Rhaella it was a decoy, there were no fresh flowers near the tower of joy, Lyanna was banging Robert to keep him faithful to her because "if your main aint banging you he banging someone" [which is debatable at best]).

But when these assertions are questioned, the questions are ignored, or the assertions are simply repeated with emphasis - frequently including accusations of bias, willful ignorance, lack of creative thinking or intellectual dishonesty.

When GRRM wants readers to doubt what they read, he always seeds those doubts with clues and hints in the text. I've asked repeatedly to see these hints from the text which would support those doubts. They have not been forthcoming.

Therefore I echo your question: "So where is the reason to think that everyone was wrong and it wasn't Rhaella?"

wolfmaid7 · January 16, 2016

You've hit the nail squarely on the head with what I think is the biggest problem with all of these series of essays, with the exception of the R+L=J one.
Assertions are made (it wasn't Rhaella it was a decoy, there were no fresh flowers near the tower of joy, Lyanna was banging Robert to keep him faithful to her because "if your main aint banging you he banging someone" [which is debatable at best]).
But when these assertions are questioned, the questions are ignored, or the assertions are simply repeated with emphasis - frequently including accusations of bias, willful ignorance, lack of creative thinking or intellectual dishonesty.
When GRRM wants readers to doubt what they read, he always seeds those doubts with clues and hints in the text. I've asked repeatedly to see these hints from the text which would support those doubts. They have not been forthcoming.
Therefore I echo your question: "So where is the reason to think that everyone was wrong and it wasn't Rhaella?"

1. Lyanna was not banging Robert to keep him faithful you keep saying that and i keep telling you no that is not what the essay says.The essay says and i quote Lyanna and Robert like a few couples at Harrenhall got caught up in the atmosphere and they had sex.The sum from the essay is below.

Sum: Lyanna wed what was well known and loved about Robert (his laughter) to what signified home (Weirwood heart tree) on her shield. As we peel back the onion the picture emerges of two people who had history and a lot in common joined together for politics and despite the bride’s concern and the groom’s past they developed a mutually physical and emotional relationship. Love.

That quote by me was directed at something Ygrain said about exepecting a husband to be faithful and that went off in a tangent and i have no idea how it got there.So please stop saying something i didn't say especially when i came back and told you 6 times or so that's not it.Its coming off as really dishonest by continually ignoring.Again stop with this tactic its getting old.

There was nothing to stop them from having sex except social expectations which are continually dismissed for one reason or the other;circumstances and mutual feelings create the situations for it.Lyanna wasn't going to withold herself from him because at that point, time had passed between the bethrothal and Harrenhall...Time enough as i said in the freaking essay for Lyanna's feelings to change and or remain the same.And she didn't deny him because she grew to love him simple as that.Not because she wanted to keep him from sexing anyone else that is stupid. If Robert wanted to bang someone else he would.He didn't. Look at Cersie's characterization of Robert " He wanted to be loved so he went where he got it." She called it a sickness that Tyrion had as well. You have the entire "clues of intimacy portion" That deals with Robert's behavior how intimates talked about Robert and hislove for Lyanna his own actions and words the whole "KOTLT" part and you and Ygrain come away with i said Lyanna banged Robert because she didn't want him to eff other women.....That entire thing and you call me dishonest while trying to make this into something its not.This is one of the reasons here i didn't waste my time answering....These underhandedness

Again Ned's little girl the dishonesty is on your part.And i really am not going to answer people who choose to use that tactic. You see how simple Nanother got an answer and reading the context saw it or how Kingmonkey got his answer.I echo my same statements and its not and insult but critical thinking is something you don't posses and that's what it is.

So i answered your first already,now to your second.

Rhaella was a decoy because GRRM the author has placed an element in here that should make the careful reader question who is under the cloak.He has emplyed it before but alas you never paid mind to it:

a.Cersie with Jamie

2.Daenys and Baelor

3.Jon with the nights watch

All utilized an act of concealment by hood and cloak or dressing up as someone else.

There was jo fresh floweres at the tower of joy a critical mind would have suss that out instead of coming up with potpouri and seed transplantation.

If it was there it would have been mentioned because it would be something out of sorts with the region.

The reason to think that everyone is wrong about Rhaella is that they don't have all the picture as we should have if we questioned the right thing. So Jamie tells everyone Aerys packed Rhaella off with Viserys for DS because that is the false info that was spread.And because Jamie thinks that's who he saw because that is what he heard was happening.

What everyone knows is based on that false assumption Ned's little girl.....And that is why everyone is wrong.

If you want to seriously talk lets do so .Any more questions?

Wall Flower · January 16, 2016

The Knight of the Laughing Tree as a reference to Robert seems rather obscure - how would a reader arrive at that conclusion? The only statement about Robert by Lyanna that the author gives us is her expressing doubts about his fidelity on the very evening of her betrothal. Why would we assume that she changed her mind, when there doesn't seem to be any hint of that in the text? Meera's KOLT story doesn't show them interacting as a couple - Lyanna is sniffling over Rhaegar's song, while Robert is engaged in a drinking contest with another man and then boasts about unmasking the KOLT (oblivious to the fact that it is Lyanna herself). Where is the author showing any closeness between them?

Isn't there a contradiction in your argument that Lyanna came to love Robert enough to give way to her passions but didn't trust her own betrothed enough to send word that she was pregnant. Would she really think it was better for her child to be unquestionably a bastard (and an unacknowledged one at that) rather than a child born a little too soon after the marriage? When Lysa Arryn became pregnant out of wedlock, she seems to have hoped that her father would allow her to marry Littlefinger, while Ashara went home to her family and even old Barristan is aware of her 'dishonour' at Harrenhall and her pregnancy. Surely, Lyanna is in a much stronger position than either Lysa or Ashara if she is pregnant to her approved betrothed? Yet, you're arguing that Lyanna is the one who ran off in a blind panic.

As I said previously, I think that you're missing the irony of Robert saying that 'no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed'. We know for sure that Cersei wanted Rhaegar in her bed, why not Lyanna?

So with the cloaked woman not being Rhaella, you're trying to cast doubt on Dany's date of birth to get round the author saying that she is 8-9 months younger that Jon? So what do you think happened to Rhaella and who's Dany?

In any case, Dany's date of birth is only one pointer to Jon Snow's age. Why do people in Winterfell accept him as the same age as Robb? Why does no-one notice that he is actually up to a year older as he would have to be if conceived at Harrenhall? Cat mentions Jon still having a wetnurse when she arrived in Winterfell. If she noticed the wetnurse, why did she not notice Jon being older than Robb (rather than younger as she clearly think him to be)?

Where does Ned say that there were fresh roses at the TOJ? He says that the room smelled of blood and roses but the only roses that are specifically mentioned are the ones that fall dead and black from Lyanna's hands. Most people interpret this as being the dried remnants of the Harrenhall crown, given to Lyanna by Rhaegar. In any case, the TOJ isn't in the desert - why can't there be roses there?

The Ned's Little Girl · January 16, 2016

That quote by me was directed at something Ygrain said about exepecting a husband to be faithful and that went off in a tangent and i have no idea how it got there.So please stop saying something i didn't say especially when i came back and told you 6 times or so that's not it.Its coming off as really dishonest by continually ignoring.Again stop with this tactic its getting old.

Ummm... the quote I used was what you put in your post. I was quoting you.

If what you said was not what you meant, then that's on you, not on me.

Again Ned's little girl the dishonesty is on your part.And i really am not going to answer people who choose to use that tactic. You see how simple Nanother got an answer and reading the context saw it or how Kingmonkey got his answer.I echo my same statements and its not and insult but critical thinking is something you don't posses and that's what it is.

Again with the insults.

These kinds of comments don't help your arguments.

nanother · January 16, 2016

First para and bolded that's the reason for me saying its possible she was abducted but has me leaning against that is again going back to Brandon and Ned's reaction especially. I will sync Cat and Jamie's recollection and how it appears.Cat says Brandon learned about Lyanna.It had already been established in the text that Lyanna was "kidnapped/Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna" yet this adds a bit of ambiguity to what exactly did Brandon hear. If he heard his sister was kidnapped by Rhaegar then the first thing one would expect is for him to enquire about her or demand her back. Instead he calls for Rhaegar to come out and die.
We then have Ned internal thoughts where he went to fight the last wars in the south.What's impossible is no one thought of her once and we can't forget from Ned's own mouth the reason they rose against the Targs was tho stop the murder of children.So again she wasn't even hinted about.These things make me believe that atleast Ned knew where Lyanna was and always was.
Not to say that the kidnapping isn't possibe but lets look on Rhaegar's side he never mentions Lyanna to anyone not once.Then we have the curious parting words with Jamie where his tone towards his reference to Robert is way off. You kidnap Lyanna or runoff with her and are all "my royal sire is more fearful of your father than he is of our cousin Robert." That is very off for someone who just kidnapped his cousin girlfriend or had anything at all to do with her disappearence.
Back to how easy it would have been for everything to be made ok if the marriage with Lyanna and Robert had happened sooner.This goes towards running away would ensure the child would be a bastard.I disagree on that because of Jon not being made in a marriage bed.See > "Why the secrecy if he's Robert's bastard." He would have that stigma no matter what if people knew and people would know and that has a lot to do with Robert having gone back to the Erie.
For someone thinking rationally and having all the variables with them they could pull the wool over everyone's eyes.
For instance what Joff tried to pull with, Sansa he was willing to have sex with her and get her preggers as soon as she had her moonblood.They ofcourse would easily be able to pull it off because Joff was right there and they could call a marriage and no one would think of it and even if anyone suspected no one would say anything.
i don't think Lyanna sat down and thought this through.We have seen it in this seres time and time again with girls making rash decisions because of that or the other.Arya and Sansa for one and a few others.Lyanna may not have realized she missed her moonblood we seen that happen especially if there is a lot going on we lose track of that.By the time she realized this is what's happening its all bad and all to late.Not going to tell daddy,and this is something you really don't want to put in raven mail for Robert.
I'm still of the belief based on Robert's reply about Barra that he may have had this expectation of Lyanna and voiced it for all the reasons laid out socially.Its damage control.

Will have to agree to disagree on Lyanna running away - I think it's extremely unlikely. However, I don't think I've come across any theory that satisfactorily explains Lyanna's disappearance, so I'm not going to hold it against yours.

I'm also fairly sure that Rheagar was involved in some way - if not kidnapping then something else. Someone from the royal family certainly is: the three KG tied to Lya's fate via Ned's dream AND they're away from the royal family they were supposed to protect - don't think you can get around that any other way than assuming that either Aerys or Rhaegar commanded them to be there (with Rhaegar being more likely). If not for Lyanna herself, then for some other plot that Lya got caught up in (something to do with Ashara?)

The thing with Rhaella is, that if she left on another day as Jaime believes she did, it cannot have gone unnoticed. No matter whether she left earlier or later, her maids will have known. People will have seen her.
That she was wearing a hood, considering the injuries she had, is not out of the ordinary.

We've seen a number of examples of people being smuggled in/out of the RK, or hiding in the RK, most of the time thanks to Varys's knowledge of the secret tunnels. No doubt he was already making use of those back then, and no doubt he was already making plots involving the Targaryen kids (he does claim tho have smuggled Aegon out). So, while I'd also be fine with the hooded-cloaked woman being Rhaella, I can very well believe that he was involving Rhaella in one such plot; although ATM I have a hard time seeing how that could work to make Dany older than she is.

If we want to assume that Jon was conceived at Harrenhal, then he's at least 9 months older than he's thought to be, probably closer to a year, or more, dunno exactly. So if we want to age up Dany to keep the age distance, she can't possibly be Rhaella's child - she'd have to have been born around, or before the supposed 'flight to Dragonstone'. If we still want her to be a Targaryen, then she'd have to be Aerys or Rhaegar's bastard, the mother maybe Ashara? Anyhow, from this point on, I don't see how 'Rhaella' not being Rhaella would matter in any of this. As long as Dany is not hers and was born before the 'flight', it doesn't seem to matter WRT Dany's age. Unless I'm missing something obvious?

It seems to me that if we look at HH with this symbolism, we are set up for Robert to be the Horned King, who marries the queen of May/moon maiden/whatever -- but Rhaegar supplants him.

I was thinking along these lines ... I said it earlier that I get the impression that this 'spring ritual' went wrong ... maybe Rhaegar tried to usurp the role of the Horned God (who's the Usurper now?). For most of his life he posed as this saviour figure, tPtwP, arguably a Sun figure, even though in the end he decided it wasn't him after all.. He went against his own nature to become a warrior so that he can match the archetype. There's nothing to say he wouldn't try to pose as the 'Horned God' figure as well. He might have decided that as this mighty 'sun warrior', he was the prefect partner for the 'goddess' in a spring ritual. And booooom, he screws it up, and winter returns. Dunno, it's probably utter crackpot. I'm really out of my depth with this stuff.

Rhaenys_Targaryen · January 16, 2016

No they wouldn't have, consider the story of Daenys and Baelor the Blessed. He locked her up in a tower and how did she get out? Rhaella had two Septon sleep with her day and night if she wanted to pull a fast one baby dress up as a septon etc she could.
See post to Kingmonkey about that.
1. Injuries didn't need a hooded cloak to hide
2. There's no time period given between "Rhaella" getting raped and tyhe figure leaving for DS.

I think you are mixing several stories here. Baelor locked Daena (not Daenys) in the Maidenvault, and she escaped, yes. We know that, at least on one of the three occasions, she had help.

Daena's escapes would have lasted only a short period of time - she always returned to the Maidenvault. Rhaella sneaking off would hav ebeen for a period of nine months. Kind of difficult to have that go unnoticed.

What does Rhaella dressing up as a septa have got to do with anything?

1. Proud women (like royalties) are usually not that fond of showing injuries their husbands gave them to the whole wide world. Same thing applies for Rhaella.

2. Did I claim there was? No, so why you make this remark, I don't know. We do know that Darry was still present for the night Daenerys presumably was conceived, and that Darry marched with Rhaegar to the Trident, which would have taken about two weeks, since the journey in the opposite directions lasts just as long as that. And we can assume that Aerys would have send Rhaella away as soon as possible, to keep his new heir safe with one of his own (Rhaella) to watch over him.

Since you say "Rhaella", are you claiming that the woman raped by Aerys the night Chelsted was burned was not Rhaella either?

No that quote wasn't about that RT you putting sauce on dry rice.That's not what that quote was about.
And yes she is in a lower class than Rhaegar and it does fit .He a prince would not run off with someone beneath him.
1. He married royalty
2. His father refused to marry him to Cersie because he saw Tywin as a servant
3. Look who the Lannisters see themselves( as lions) compared to others and see how Dany(as a Dragon) see herself. We think all this postering Lions not bowing to Lambs and Dragons fracking everyone comes from!!!
For goodness sake Rhaegar reffered to Jamie as a crutch,a crutch !!!
Nuff said.

Is that not the trope? And besides, we have seen a girl running away from an unwanted marriage. Alys Karstark.

1. Who Rhaegar first married doesn't matter in regards to what Lyanna's station of birth is. She's one of the highest born girls in the realm, and girls of her station (and even of a lower station), have been known to be highborn enough to marry a prince or crown prince. Seems to me that their birth is of similar enough station.

2. And you very well know why Aerys said just that. Had Aerys not been jealous of Tywin, Cersei would have very much been on the table as a marriage candidate..

3. Your first sentence shows us clearly how highly these people all see themselves. Which kind of agrees with my point, but ok. Your second sentence makes no sense.

Rhaegar referring to Jaime as a crutch doesn't mean a thing in regards to his station of birth. Jaime was a hostage, no matter which way you turn it, and Aerys was extremely paranoid. Rhaegar did not dare take his father's hostage with him, as Aerys would not want such a thing. Having Jaime as a hostage in the Red Keep was one of the few things making Aerys feel any bit secure. Hence, the use of the word crutch.

If Dany was not born on Dragonstone, where does Westeros get its info from? Somehow, the information spread from Dragonstone. And that would be the people who witnessed Rhaella give birth. Who saw their Queen Dowager pregnant for nine months, with their new King newly crowned (which would have been done in front of those present at Dragonstone).

We've seen a number of examples of people being smuggled in/out of the RK, or hiding in the RK, most of the time thanks to Varys's knowledge of the secret tunnels. No doubt he was already making use of those back then, and no doubt he was already making plots involving the Targaryen kids (he does claim tho have smuggled Aegon out). So, while I'd also be fine with the hooded-cloaked woman being Rhaella, I can very well believe that he was involving Rhaella in one such plot; although ATM I have a hard time seeing how that could work to make Dany older than she is.
If we want to assume that Jon was conceived at Harrenhal, then he's at least 9 months older than he's thought to be, probably closer to a year, or more, dunno exactly. So if we want to age up Dany to keep the age distance, she can't possibly be Rhaella's child - she'd have to have been born around, or before the supposed 'flight to Dragonstone'. If we still want her to be a Targaryen, then she'd have to be Aerys or Rhaegar's bastard, the mother maybe Ashara? Anyhow, from this point on, I don't see how 'Rhaella' not being Rhaella would matter in any of this. As long as Dany is not hers and was born before the 'flight', it doesn't seem to matter WRT Dany's age. Unless I'm missing something obvious?

Yes, and in all of those cases, the absence of said person is noticed. That's the thing. If Rhaella left the Red Keep earlier than Jaime believes she did, those people who interacted with her every day (like her maids, and her servants) would have known about it.

And if Rhaella left at a later point in time, those same people will have known about it, because she'd still be in the castle.

That's my point.

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