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Heresy Project X+Y=J: Robert + Lyanna


wolfmaid7

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The text absolutely supports what I say.

I'm not sure I completely understand your first point, but it seems you are pointing to his statement: Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children. I'm not sure what you think that means, but it doesn't mean they actually do age faster or that anyone tries to hold them back. It means that no one coddles and spoils them. They often aren't given the training and education the legitimate children are given. They can even be teased and taunted. As a result, they need to learn to stand up for themselves, the fend for themselves. They have to be savvy and mature.

Gilly and Dalla's babies were "of an age" --you'd have to watch them closely to figure out which was the older.

Sam and Gilly stood nearby. Her eyes were red and puffy, but the boy was in her arms, bundled tight. Whether it was her boy or Dalla's he could not be sure. He had only seen the two together a few times. Gilly's boy was older, Dalla's more robust, but they were close enough in age and size so that no one who did not know them well would be able to easily tell one from the other.

And a six month old versus a one year old?

A six month old is just beginning to sit up, they make sounds when they hear sounds (maybe not the same sound, there are many they can't make yet). They're just starting to sit alone and if you lift them up to their feet they will bounce, but they can't stand yet.  They'll look at you when you play games like peek a boo and smile, but they don't play back.

A one year old will hand you a book to get a story, they are walking, they follow simple directions (give me the spoon), they are beginning to speak at least trying to say words if not using a few. They play games (peek a boo) and help you dress them.

As far as how old Robb was when Catelyn returned to Winterfell, we don't really know. We know she came there "When the wars were over at last" and she says that she and Ned were separated for a year after their marriage.

I'll take the last point first.I think we get a contrast between what Cat's thinks and what GRRM wants us to pay attention to in what she's saying.

"Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles."

This tells us that Cat ( not from Ned at that point) found out he fathered Jon.This is something she heard and what's more the time is not quite specific-On campaign- Which could have meant anytime since the war started and most definitely the fisherman's daughter falls in that.

If we use the Fisherman's daughter as just a rough idea Jon is definitely older than we think he is.

"Yet gladly would she have kissed the maester just then. His was the perfect solution. Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have. And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn’s own grandchildren for Winterfell."

Here Cat shows fears that Jon's kids would someday try to take WF or some crap from Robbs kids which makes no sense unless Jon was legitimized and even then that makes nosense he wouldn't be in line unless he was older.

But there is a quote that makes it seem also that Cat though Ned fathered Jon whenthey were apart for a year when he was off warring in the south. So Cat overall isn't sure and Ned as far as we know from his statement to Cat when she asked about Jon didn't talk to her about Jon at all.So she's really in the dark.It's just easier to have people treat Jon status wise how they see fit. If people want to put forth he's younger than RobbNed didn't contradict.He just let them think as they will.

Secondly, Luwin's statement here's one of the reasons i disagree with you.None of what you say applies to Jon.He got the same training,education and treatment like the rest of his siblings except. He was Robb's rival and best friend they had the exact same treatment barring the name.....He had the bastard title.He ate with them and Ned gave him the same emotional support and probably even more. According to Cat Ned was fiercely protective of Jon. He most definitely wasn't in a deficit expect that Lady Cat didn't want anything to do with him on a maternal level.....That's it.

Contextually the conversation with Benjen was of the physical persuation.

The term "of an age" is one we definitely can't use as any kind of proof because it is a matter or perception.Theon is said to be of an age with Jon and Robb and i think he was like 3yrs older at the time.

We can't use our mordern day developmental childhood criteria on a civilization that doesn't know what that is?So they won't be looking for who meets what milestone first and what if one of them does have some problem physically or emotionally.

 And as i stated this civilization will explain everything away supernaturally or because the father has strong /weak seed or some crap like that.It takes Tourmond to knock sense into Jon when it come to that kind of stinking thinking. But it remains in a society such as South of the Wall BS like that perpetuates for a reason and it is psychological against bastards.

Then Lastly, there's the issue of Cat's pride, having to deal with getting her new household,her own young son. I won't be suprised if she never paid attention to Jon until he was old enough to play with Robb.

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Sorry, are people seriously suggesting that Jon might be between 6-12 months older that Robb and no-one would notice because Westeros doesn't have baby health clinics? That nurses, maester and a new mother like Cat wouldn't notice such a significant difference in age? There is a reason that Varys and Illyrio waited until Aegon was 'five' before handing him over to JonCon - because even a confirmed  bachelor might have noticed that a younger child wasn't the same age Rhaegar's eldest son was supposed to be.

It's certainly possible that Jon may be older than he thinks but not to the extent that would allow him to have been conceived at Harrenhall. (he would be at least a year older than Robb in that case).

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The problem I have with this theory is you'd have to do mental gymnastic for it to fit. Not to mention, we'll have to assume GRRM outright lied about the timing of Jon's birth, Dany's birth, Lyanna's kidnapping, etc. Basically, for this to work, you'd have to throw out books and assume that everything we read so far is a lie and a misdirection by GRRM. 

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Ygrain your confusing yourself and what your asking makes no sense.Why would he have a beef with Robert for this when he already knows Robert's appetite himself. He knows how sexual Robert is,it would be crazy for Ned to think that Robert is going to wait how ever long before he and Lyanna gets married without having sex .he has no reason at all to ever be upset with Robert he himself have said.

" Robert has never been patient."

Robert has always been a man with a huge appetite who knew how to take his pleasure." 

So it's kind of silly to think he would then somehow expect Robert to somehow abstain???That is madness right there.You have better luck keeping water in a sieve

Because

1) A Lord of Robert's standing is not supposed to sate such appetites on his betrothed of Lyanna's standing

2)The bolded is exactly what Ned is trying to convince Lyanna about:

he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart.

This is in line with what Harwin says about Ned's hypothetical fling with Ashara:

When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there’s no stain on your father’s honor. There’s nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where’s the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged.

So, betrothal is binding, people are not supposed to sleep around when they are betrothed because honour. On the other hand, men have their needs and there are considerable double standards for men and women in Westeros, so it is considered normal for men not to keep this standard while women are supposed to be maidens until the wedding night. This is a huge issue, a woman is considered "soiled" if she loses her virginity, which means that she is not supposed to sleep even with her betrothed. The social taboo on this is pretty strong, and for Lyanna to break it, she would have to be rather unprincipled.

Now, you are perfectly correct that Robert was not patient and knew how to sate his appetites, but we also have the wild wolf Brandon, never shy about what he wanted, yet he never makes a move towards Cat, who is smoking hot, considers Brandon smoking hot, yet it is only Ned who gets her maidenhead.

Let's see a lithe girl like Lyanna who was tomboyish wouldn't show big as someone bigger than her would.She could hide in big clothes especially if she like dressing in guys clothing like Arya did. And Lastly,why would anyone notice if she bolts when she begins to show?

This is nonsense. Being tomboyish has nothing to do with how much they are going to show in pregnancy, that depends on a lot of factors.

And again, this is Westeros. People sleep naked and are tended to by servants when they are dressing up or taking a bath. Noble girls also start menstruating when they are 12-13, Sansa tells us, and due to the hygienic conditions of a castle, lack of menstruation would also be noticed. No private bathrooms, no disposable sanitary pads or tampons which you discreetly pack and throw into the bin.

Ygrain you really grasping at some weird straws.Murder carries consequences if one is caught.It being a crime has nothing to do with you not being punished if no one knows you did said crime. Likewise Lyanna and Robert are protected from any consequences as long as no one knew and they kept there mouths shut.You know just like the other examples i gave in the rebuttal sections of a few people who actually were smart enough not to blab about their sexual escapades.

You're mixing the deed and the consequences. Murder is murders, regardless if consequences follow or not, and dishonour is dishonour, regardless if consequences follow or not. The former is a crime, the latter is a break of social rules, which are especially strict in the case of noble maidens. Even someone like Robert would know that by taking his betrothed's vriginity, he would be causing her dishonour, and, in a way, he would be even dishonouring himself because it would be his bride who wouldn't be a maiden and thus not able to show a bloody sheet on the wedding night. Now, of course, other people's potential brides are fair game, but their own... double standards again.

Another nonsense reply Ygrain i dare you to tell your husband/wife or boyfriend/girlfiend i'm no longer going to have sex with you and i expect you to be faithful.First of all you wouldn't tell them that because you wouldn't risk that they would step out on you. Here's a saying that's well knows " If YOU ain't sleeping with your man,bet your money someone else is."Secondly,that any person would expect someone to be deprived and do nothing to help is ridiculous and it further validates what i'm saying.What's a stupid thing to do is for anyone to expect Robert to go without,to make a match with someone who is already experianced and then pull the plug for X amount of time........Ygrain this fails completely.

But Lyanna is not a case of "no longer". She is in the category of "untouchable until wedding", and Robert can sleep around as much as he wants, even if he is theoretically not supposed to.

What are you going on about with Cat? I never said such a foolish thing.So i can't answer you.

According to Jon in his first chapter of AGOT speaking to Benjen Luuwin says this: " Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children."

Think about this Ygrain. Tell me under what circumstances,what statement made would have merited this reply from Luwin? Someone noticed something about Jon asked a question and this was the response he gave to appease whether he believed it or not.It did its job.There's is an ideology about bastards that makes such things believeable.Its the Sealord's Cat all over again.Something is clear and a person in a postion of trust and authority gives a reason and it is believed.Simple as that.

Sciteacher pretty much covered the issue, so just a couple of points.

You don't need special education to observe the development stages, all it takes is to be around children and have children of your own. No woman who has ever had a single child of her own would ever think that a child who can crawl is younger than a child who cannot even hold their head up, or anything like that, and with the education they receive, neither would any maester. Apparently, maester Luwin's statement concerns something else than such BS.

 

As to what notable event that happens to keep time and events......Ohhhh this is going to get good...I'm glad you asked that Ygrain.....The seasons or more specifically the Weather.Is the picture coming into focus better...*cough* Oak /Holly kings.

No. Please, elaborate.

 

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Let's see a lithe girl like Lyanna who was tomboyish wouldn't show big as someone bigger than her would.She could hide in big clothes especially if she like dressing in guys clothing like Arya did.

 

 

Sciteacher admirably covered the "bastards grow up faster" portion of this post and Ygrain deftly refuted the idea that Robert and Lyanna were banging because Robert just can't help himself, but I wanted to isolate and analyze this particular passage from the post, because it encapsulates everything that (imo) is so dubious about nearly all of these X+L=J threads.

Ideas such as these are being thrown into the discussions as support (or refutation) for the main premise of the topic. The trouble arises because a lot of these supporting or refuting ideas aren't present in the text.

1) "Let's see a lithe girl like Lyanna who was tomboyish wouldn't show big as someone bigger than her would."

Where in Westeros is this shown to be true? Please cite the text where someone's (anyone's) pregnancy is less noticeable because of tomboyish behavior growing up. Or because someone physically smaller or lithe would have the same. It doesn't even have to be shown to be Lyanna; since GRRM uses the associative property to show the reader where to draw connections, it really could be anybody.

Saying "well, it's true in real life" doesn't suffice. These are novels. With dragons. In order for something to be true in the story, it needs to be true in the story.

 

2) "She could hide in big clothes especially if she like dressing in guys clothing like Arya did."

Well, did she hide in big clothes (not just could have, but did)? Where are the textual hints (and remember, it doesn't have to be Lyanna because associative property)?

And is "guys clothing" described as "big", capable of concealing a pregnancy? If so, where? Does anybody in the story cross-dress for the purpose of concealing pregnancy (because, again, associative property)? Arya certainly doesn't; she's disguising herself while running for her life. Not exactly the same.

Since this point is being asserted as a supporting argument, where is the support? (Other than just the assertion, that is.) In order for something to be supportable by the story, it needs to be supported by the story.

 

 

 

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No one could mistake a 6 month baby for a 12 month old baby, but it's entirely conceivable to mistake a large 9 month baby for a small 15 month old baby.  It's not common, but my sister could walk and speak simple sentences at 9 months old, while my daughter didn't walk until she was over a year old and didn't start speaking in sentences until she was almost two.  And it's repeatedly established that Jon is small for his age.

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No one could mistake a 6 month baby for a 12 month old baby, but it's entirely conceivable to mistake a large 9 month baby for a small 15 month old baby.  It's not common, but my sister could walk and speak simple sentences at 9 months old, while my daughter didn't walk until she was over a year old and didn't start speaking in sentences until she was almost two.  And it's repeatedly established that Jon is small for his age.

Indeed, the older the child, the smaller the difference. However, Cat says that she and Ned spent a year apart, so Robb was only a couple of months old, while Jon would be at least a year older

And sorry but Jon is not notably small, Pyp is.

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Geeze people the 6mth vs 1 year old isn't an actual estimate. It was use to show a point to which i'll repeat again and come back later to you Ygrain and NLG.

If you are going to try and superimpose CD criteria on these kids already you have a problem.Plus as said upthread you think Cat on arrving at WF is going to sit down and observe Jon while she has a household to put together,her own baby to see to go through the hold burying of Ned's family and all that. Heck no.

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But it is not very much off the mark. There are months between HH and Lyanna's disappearance, a year of the rebellion plus perhaps a few more months before Cat is reunited with Ned. Jon would be born at the time of Robb's conception or slightly later max, which would put at least 6 months' difference between them.

Distinguishing such a major difference takes but a glance.

BTW, do we have any parallel how long children in Westeros were breastfed? When Cat arrived at Winterfel, Jon still needed a wetnurse.

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But it is not very much off the mark. There are months between HH and Lyanna's disappearance, a year of the rebellion plus perhaps a few more months before Cat is reunited with Ned. Jon would be born at the time of Robb's conception or slightly later max, which would put at least 6 months' difference between them.

Distinguishing such a major difference takes but a glance.

BTW, do we have any parallel how long children in Westeros were breastfed? When Cat arrived at Winterfel, Jon still needed a wetnurse.

I can't find anything specific about length of time for breastfeeding in Westeros, but I'd estimate 2-3 years was average. The wildlings gave their children "milk names" until their second birthday. It's heavily implied that Lysa breastfeeding six-year old Sweet Robin  is weird. Bother of those parallel what is common in most cultures--2 years gives a child a good start in life, 3 or 4 years is pretty common in developing nations. More than that is uncommon just about anywhere (and was true in the medieval ages, too)

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Apologies from dropping into the middle of this discussion without reading from the beginning, but I have a question for those that discredit alternate father theories using the Robert not keeping to one bed argument. If Lyanna objected to Robert's infidelities then why would she be satisfied in a plural marriage? Can anyone explain in a nutshell why a woman said to be more like Arya than Sansa would accept Rhaegar over Robert?

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Apologies from dropping into the middle of this discussion without reading from the beginning, but I have a question for those that discredit alternate father theories using the Robert not keeping to one bed argument. If Lyanna objected to Robert's infidelities then why would she be satisfied in a plural marriage? Can anyone explain in a nutshell why a woman said to be more like Arya than Sansa would accept Rhaegar over Robert?

In a nutshell, it is the difference in character between Rhaegar and Robert.

From what little we know, Robert was drunk, selfish, womanizer, violent.

From what little we know (all second-hand) Rhaegar was selfless, loyal, musician, intelligent, "Able. That above all. Determined, deliberate, dutiful, single-minded."

The issue is that we don't really know what kind of man Rhaegar was, so we can't know what Lyanna thought. And we don't know a lot about her character, either.

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And why does anyone think that an arrangement among three people (out of which one actually may abstain from sex completely) is in any way similar to one's husband fucking every female within several miles' diameter?

This is the core of Ned's musing about Robert and Rhaegar: Robert would have cheated on Lyanna, Rhaegar wouldn't. Being polygamous =/= cheating.

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I don't think that's a fair characterization of Robert.Who Robert was is not who he became. He was a ladies man but prior to Lyanna he had no obligation to anyone. He was a man that exemplified battle, bedding and bear.It's his archetype and that's important. 

But he was merciful, gentle, charismatic and brave.We know who Robert is we know him at his best, vulnerable and at his worse.

He is a multidimensional character who we are very cognizant of his flaws and his strength

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Ygrain'soes anyone think that 'san arrangement among three people (out of which one actually may abstain from sex completely) is in any way similar to one's husband fucking every female within several miles' diameter?

This is the core of Ned's musing about Robert and Rhaegar: Robert would have cheated on Lyanna, Rhaegar wouldn't. Being polygamous =/= cheating.

ygrain that's in correct. The point is he didn't. The point is he cheated on Cersie because she didn't make him want to keep to her bed........."if your man aint banging you he banging someone"

cersie should have heed Jamie advice but she was to prideful and resentful. 

And by the way that brothal chapter charaterization is wrong it surely is interpretive so no Ned wasnt comparing robert to rhaegar.

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Lyanna didn't raise any objections other than fidelity, so Robert's character wasn't being scrutinized.

As for polygamy, only the Targaryens practiced it, and I don't think there's any evidence to support that Lyanna would be accepting of it.

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"Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall," - AGoT p. 380

This from Ned, arguably, his best friend.

"The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war." -ASoS p. 340

At Harrenhal, Robert is getting drunk in the corner with his buddy, and not paying attention to his fiance.

 

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Lyanna didn't raise any objections other than fidelity, so Robert's character wasn't being scrutinized.

Ah? Fidelity, or rather lack of, is not a feature of character?

As for polygamy, only the Targaryens practiced it

Out of Maegor's six wives, five were not Targaryen, so this argument doesn't hold water.

 

I don't think there's any evidence to support that Lyanna would be accepting of it.

Nor is there that she wouldn't.
On the other hand, we have multiple statements that wedding the woman you want to bed is the right thing to do.
 

ygrain that's in correct. The point is he didn't. The point is he cheated on Cersie because she didn't make him want to keep to her bed........."if your man aint banging you he banging someone"

I can't stand Cersei just fine but don't make Robert a poor victim of her shortcomings. His idea of fine life was battle, ale, and a girl in his bed. Cersei's coldness drove him away sooner rather than later, but he would have cheated on her anyway, because that's the kind of man he was, and always had been. He would have kept to Cersei's bed when Cersei was around, and if he travelled somewhere, he would have found another bedwarmer, because Seven forbid that he might deny himself his pleasures.

 

And by the way that brothal chapter charaterization is wrong it surely is interpretive so no Ned wasnt comparing robert to rhaegar.

Of course he was. If you think about character X shortcomings and then you think that character Y wouldn't do that, you are comparing characters X and Y.

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