U.S. Politics: The Summer of Trump is Lasting Longer Than a Season in Westeros

[lokisnow]

I don't think the technicality of the legality of Cruz being able to run matters to Trumpers.  Facts don't matter with them. They believe the sound-bites Trump feeds them because he merely reinforces their ignorant, bigoted and ingrained beliefs. 

It's not even that. Just repeat Canadian enough and people won't vote for him, by and large they probably don't want a foreign born president.

Trump is also right that democrats would obviously sue if Cruz were to win.

[Horza]

Man - that is eerily reminiscent of Deutchland, Deutchland, uber alles.

I'm reminded of Es zittern die morschen knocken
 

[TrackerNeil]

Holy hell how can anyone consider voting for one of these Republican jokes? Attempting to listen to this so called debate is such a broken record. Insisting the President is wrong in everything he does because he won't work with Congress?   They're all piss, vinager, and hot air and none of the men on that stage tonight should be allowed anywhere near the Presidency. 

I think it's also important for people to remember that President Sanders would govern in pretty much the same way as President Clinton or President O'Malley. The main differences, I think, would be on the margins (say, with staffing decisions) or with titanic issues (like invading Iraq). Since few people care about the margins, and few presidents have to deal with titanic issues, one Democratic presidency is going to look much like another. So I never understand those who say that this Democrat is just unacceptable. 

[Guest]

Trump's people should put out a South Park-style animation video of Cruz as the Canadian-headed Other.  It would hit home pretty hard and would allow Trump backers to feel cultured and intelligent.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Trump's people should put out a South Park-style animation video of Cruz as the Canadian-headed Other.  It would hit home pretty hard and would allow Trump backers to feel cultured and intelligent.

I'm not your guy, buddy!

I'm not your buddy,pal!

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Man - that is eerily reminiscent of Deutchland, Deutchland, uber alles.

Yes, it is.  Trump has a similar foam at the mouth style reminiscent of a man long dead but firm in memory.

[sologdin]

trump's song is profoundly unaesthetic.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Well, to be fair, nobody really cares about the "natural born citizenship" issue unless they're attacking some other candidate with it. That being said, I actually do think it's an issue that could potentially be decided against Cruz, just like it could have potentially have been decided against McCain. There are just a few scholarly articles on the meaning of "natural born citizen" and I have really, really tried to read them critically but they are just so fucking boring it's almost impossible get through them. It's an issue that probably deserves some legal clarification, although to be honest, my preferred solution would be to scrap the "natural born" requirement altogether. If you're a citizen, and you can muster enough votes to win the presidency - that's good enough for me.

Wise Lawyer Nestor,

Does the fact that Cruz's mom held Canadian citizenship when Cruz was born affect his status?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tywin,

Was Cruz's dad an American citizen?

[TerraPrime]

how can the anti-whatever rage be so severe that mccarthyists support bern over the h-bomb?

XX v XY

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Wise Lawyer Nestor,

Does the fact that Cruz's mom held Canadian citizenship when Cruz was born affect his status?

As I understand the issue - no. His mother was a US Citizen and it doesn't matter that she also held dual citizenship. The fact that Cruz's father was NOT an American citizen at the time of his birth would be a more significant fact, although as I understand it, nobody really thinks that is so critical either.

The real issue that Ted Cruz was unquestionably born outside the jurisdiction of the United States. The argument against, as I understand it, is that people born outside of the US are not "natural born" citizens, although they may, as Ted Cruz was, be born at a time when Congress had passed a law that "naturalized" him at birth. It's a distinction between being "natural born" vs. "naturalized" by a law passed by Congress. 

Not everyone buys this distinction. These guys seem pretty smart and they say just the opposite - that if you are naturalized at birth, that's enough to be a natural born citizen. I wold have to track down the law review article that I was looking at the other day that was making the opposite case in relation to John McCain. The level of detail was higher in that article, although at some point most peoples' eyes just glaze over reading 17th century statutes (mine included). 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Man - that is eerily reminiscent of Deutchland, Deutchland, uber alles.

Reminded me more of this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfPrQqbikb4

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Tywin,

Was Cruz's dad an American citizen?

No. He was not at the time.

[sologdin]

why is cruz not a jus sanguinis citizen of the US?  seems kinda unequivocal to me.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

why is cruz not a jus sanguinis citizen of the US?  seems kinda unequivocal to me.

Nobody disputes that Cruz is a citizen of the United States by virtue of his mother's citizenship. The question is whether he is "natural born" or whether he was "naturalized" through an Act of Congress - or whether this distinction exists for people who are naturalized upon birth. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

why is cruz not a jus sanguinis citizen of the US?  seems kinda unequivocal to me.

I believe that's the argument he's made. That his mother's citizenship automatically gives him citizenship as well.

As I understand the issue - no. His mother was a US Citizen and it doesn't matter that she also held dual citizenship. The fact that Cruz's father was NOT an American citizen at the time of his birth would be a more significant fact, although as I understand it, nobody really thinks that is so critical either.

The real issue that Ted Cruz was unquestionably born outside the jurisdiction of the United States. The argument against, as I understand it, is that people born outside of the US are not "natural born" citizens, although they may, as Ted Cruz was, be born at a time when Congress had passed a law that "naturalized" him at birth. It's a distinction between being "natural born" vs. "naturalized" by a law passed by Congress. 

Not everyone buys this distinction. These guys seem pretty smart and they say just the opposite - that if you are naturalized at birth, that's enough to be a natural born citizen. I wold have to track down the law review article that I was looking at the other day that was making the opposite case in relation to John McCain. The level of detail was higher in that article, although at some point most peoples' eyes just glaze over reading 17th century statutes (mine included).

Thanks Nestor! As far as I know everything you've laid out seems accurate. I wasn't sure if his mother's dual citizenship status impacted Cruz's claim.

Given that it's unclear if the issue has been decided, shouldn't there be a law enacted or a court ruling to settle the matter? I mean, this has been an open issue for some time. Mittens Rmoney's father was a candidate for president, and he was born in Mexico, but was still allowed to run (though there were a number of scholars then that argued he shouldn't be eligible).

[sologdin]

Nobody disputes that Cruz is a citizen of the United States by virtue of his mother's citizenship. The question is whether he is "natural born" or whether he was "naturalized" through an Act of Congress - or whether this distinction exists for people who are naturalized upon birth. 

is there someone who thinks that jus sanguinis citizenship is not conferred at birth?

both jus soli and jus sanguinis citizenship are creatures of statute in the united states.

 

ETA--

maybe however 'natural born' relates to vaginal birth, rather than caesarian sections, matrix style fetal farming, axlotl tanks, and popping out of zeus' head fully formed. 

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Thanks Nestor! As far as I know everything you've laid out seems accurate. I wasn't sure if his mother's dual citizenship status impacted Cruz's claim.

Given that it's unclear if the issue has been decided, shouldn't there be a law enacted or a court ruling to settle the matter? I mean, this has been an open issue for some time. Mittens Rmoney's father was a candidate for president, and he was born in Mexico, but was still allowed to run (though there were a number of scholars then that argued he shouldn't be eligible).

I think that the political process weighs heavily against anyone that matters filing a lawsuit over this. Lots of people filed lawsuits against Obama trying to have him disqualified on the basis that he wasn't a natural born citizen based on the conspiracy theory that he was born in Kenya. All of those lawsuits were dismissed for lack of standing. In other words, that even if they were right, they weren't the type of person who could legitimately sue over this because they weren't injured in any meaningful way.

So if just being a citizen is not going to allow you to sue to resolve this question, what kind of status would you need to have? Well, if Ted Cruz becomes the Republican nominee, maybe the Republican party could file a lawsuit seeking a declaratory judgment as to whether or not he's eligible. But it would be pretty atrocious optics to have to publicly question your own nominee's right to be president, particularly since the way lawsuits work, you probably wouldn't have an answer before the election. Perhaps the Democrats could sue, but it seems like the optics are almost as bad for them, as it looks like they're trying to win a battle in the courts that they can't win in the court of public opinion. I think the Democrats believe that if Cruz is nominated, they can just beat him on the merits. And I'd like to think they're right about that. So what have they really got to gain? 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Given that it's unclear if the issue has been decided, shouldn't there be a law enacted or a court ruling to settle the matter? I mean, this has been an open issue for some time. Mittens Rmoney's father was a candidate for president, and he was born in Mexico, but was still allowed to run (though there were a number of scholars then that argued he shouldn't be eligible).

Right now there is a cat and a 15 year old boy who have been "allowed to run". It doesn't seem that there is any connection between having filed statements of candidacy and actually meeting the requirements of the office.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

is there someone who thinks that jus sanguinis citizenship is not conferred at birth?

both jus soli and jus sanguinis citizenship are creatures of statute in the united states.

Again, nobody is disputing that Ted Cruz's citizenship was conferred at birth. It's not clear that this resolves the distinction between "natural born" and "naturalized." 

On one end of the spectrum, the guys in the Harvard Law Review note argue that a "natural born" citizen is anyone whose citizenship is conferred upon birth. 

On the other end of the spectrum, some people are arguing that the original understanding of the "natural born" language in the Constitution was that it meant someone born within the actual physical dominion of the United States - which is supposedly what "natural born" meant in English common law at the time. So anybody not born within the territorial US is "naturalized" and ineligible to be President, even if they were naturalized upon birth.