Larger Role in Jon's arc for Winds

[Jon leaves the Watch]

This is my first topic post on the forums. I have been reading the forums for a few years now and just recently created a profile to start posting.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that a lot of people on here have been focusing on Mel having a huge part in Jon's recovery/revival in the upcoming book. Now, I don't know if this is due to the most recent thing involving this storyline being the show or not. That doesn't really matter either way.

My thoughts are that Val will play a larger role than Mel in Winds with respect to Jon's recovery/revival. If not it just seems kinda pointless to have her have so much time on page and then just have her become an insignificant character later on.

Thoughts? Agree or Disagree?

[The Fattest Leech]

This is my first topic post on the forums. I have been reading the forums for a few years now and just recently created a profile to start posting.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that a lot of people on here have been focusing on Mel having a huge part in Jon's recovery/revival in the upcoming book. Now, I don't know if this is due to the most recent thing involving this storyline being the show or not. That doesn't really matter either way.

My thoughts are that Val will play a larger role than Mel in Winds with respect to Jon's recovery/revival. If not it just seems kinda pointless to have her have so much time on page and then just have her become an insignificant character later on.

Thoughts? Agree or Disagree?

Yes, yes, yes. I have thought for a long time now that Val will play a part in Jon revival. Some on here may be tired of me saying this by now

There was the obvious flirting between the two (mostly Val to Jon) and Tormund saw it. The fact that Ghost really likes Val, Val and Dalla are (were Dalla) woods witches, Val is most likely using spells or something on "Monster" with her singing that Jon overhears, when Val ridesout to find Tormund she is in a bearskin cloak but comes back in white from head to toe with a weirwood brooch (could be significant), and the fact that Val can do so many things beyond the wall that the NW has not been able to accomplish yet (which is why Jon sends her).

My only flag with Val is that when she sets out to find Tormund her eyes are grey but when she comes back her eyes are blue. Could be nothing. Could be a "bride of ice" type of thing. Could be Jon is seeing her beauty in a real way for the first time. Could be she wants to eat everyone in a delicious pie???

In Jon's last chapter or two he does a lot of inspecting in the ice cells for supplies and prisoner count and conditions and how much snow is covering them. There is one scene where he actually sees his reflection in the ice inside of a cell. The person who opens the door to that cell to let Jon is is Wick, also known as the first one to stab Jon in the mutiny. So there is possible foreshadowing that Jon will be held there for either a minute, a week, or ??? until Val can help him. This is also a good possibility to the Ice Dragon theories and talk out there. Jon could be the literal dragon (Targ) within the ice (the wall). Or not???

Now, if you believe that Jon is AA, then this is where Mel could come in to play. I havn't drawn out all of the clues yet, but as I was doing a listen to the books recently (as opposed to re-reading them) I heard a few clues that could possibly link Mel to Nissa Nissa, especially when Mel sees Bloodraven in her flames and has the physical reactions she does. This happens in her POV in Dance. So maybe Val and Mel work together, actually bringing the two together who don't really get along well right now anyway. Nothing overt has happened, I think each senses the others gifts and don't know what to make of it yet.

I have a feeling that Jon's body will be taken to the weirwood grove where he took his NW vows to be burnt in the eyes of the old gods and he will "rise" from there. That will be HIS dragon puberty like when Dany had hers with dead Drogo. I am sure there will be a few people to shit their pants at the sight of a dead guy rising, but I am sure many more will  be in awe and will follow Jon always. Bowen better watch his ass.

The there is the whole other topic of what happens AFTER Jon rezzes up... http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/136761-book-jon-snow-death-aftermath-julius-caesar/#comment-7415949

Of course, all of this is theory until Winds is released... and it will be released (we really need a praying emoji for cases like this)

One more thing: I have found that listening to the books after so many re-reads really helps me find clues to things I always missed with my eyes. I use Audible.

[Good Guy Garlan]

The Fattest Leech (btw, where's your Mama June avatar?) I can't remember a single hint of Val being anything other than a resourceful wildling. I could be wrong, of course. 

But I think Jon's definitely getting resurrected by R'hllor's magic, and given that Thoros and Stoneheart are way too far from the Wall, that duty's gonna fall to Mel. 

Why I think that? 

In aSoS, Jon has a dream in which he's standing on top of the Wall and there's a sword burning red in his fist.

So Jon's getting a flaming sword. And where have we seen a flaming sword in the series (an actual one, not a phony one like Stannis')? That's right: Beric had one. And he lit the sword using his own blood. 

So my theory is that the body of those resurrected by a red priest changes, that they are somehow supported by fire, to the point where they're very blood is volatile. Jon needs this if he's ever going to get that burning sword. 

Now you might be saying, "Wait a minute, nothing suggests Mel knows how to resurrect people like Thoros does". True, but I think the text offers evidence that Mel is Undead like Beric and Stoneheart. We know from her POV that she doesn't need to sleep or eat, and that her past is now only a distant memory. Like Beric. She's also never cold, not even at the Wall, which supports the theory that this kind of magic reanimates people using fire. 

And just like Beric passed this fire on to Cat, I think Mel will pass it on to Jon. 

 

[DigUpHerBones]

i think it is fairly obvious that UnCat will the the one to revive him, Mel has never revived anyone or even spoken of resurrection in her story arc.

i know UnCat has yet to either, but it sort of makes sense that Beric would pass it to her at his will and she could pass it to Jon at her will.

to me, its the only character who makes sense for their arcs to be completed... 

[DigUpHerBones]

But I think Jon's definitely getting resurrected by R'hllor's magic, and given that Thoros and Stoneheart are way too far from the Wall, that duty's gonna fall to Mel. 

 

we have no idea what the BwB timeline is, or where one sect is compared to the next, or even which members are in each sect.

we have had no reference to where UnCat's band is since Feast...

[The Fattest Leech]

The Fattest Leech (btw, where's your Mama June avatar?) I can't remember a single hint of Val being anything other than a resourceful wildling. I could be wrong, of course. 

But I think Jon's definitely getting resurrected by R'hllor's magic, and given that Thoros and Stoneheart are way too far from the Wall, that duty's gonna fall to Mel. 

Why I think that? 

In aSoS, Jon has a dream in which he's standing on top of the Wall and there's a sword burning red in his fist.

So Jon's getting a flaming sword. And where have we seen a flaming sword in the series (an actual one, not a phony one like Stannis')? That's right: Beric had one. And he lit the sword using his own blood. 

So my theory is that the body of those resurrected by a red priest changes, that they are somehow supported by fire, to the point where they're very blood is volatile. Jon needs this if he's ever going to get that burning sword. 

Now you might be saying, "Wait a minute, nothing suggests Mel knows how to resurrect people like Thoros does". True, but I think the text offers evidence that Mel is Undead like Beric and Stoneheart. We know from her POV that she doesn't need to sleep or eat, and that her past is now only a distant memory. Like Beric. She's also never cold, not even at the Wall, which supports the theory that this kind of magic reanimates people using fire. 

And just like Beric passed this fire on to Cat, I think Mel will pass it on to Jon. 

 

I like you so I won't smother you with a pillow for doubting or questioning Val She is a healer, Ghost warms to her right away, Mel is semi-cautious of her, Val sings to Monster which we know is a way to cast spells, and she is accomplished on the other side of the wall.

I remember the dream because I was kinda like "FINALLY a real clue!" I figured it was the blood on the sword that made the sword light up, a blood sacrifice on a small level like the small blood sacrifice Arya has to do when she first dons a leatherface mask in the House of BW.

Side note: I thought it was hilarious in the books when Davos called out Stannis's sword for being a dirty fake!

I tend to think that Mel is controlled by something via that big ol' ruby around her neck which is kinds like the one she has Mance wear during his glamour into Rattleshirt. She has him wear one around his wrist(?) and explains to Jon that is how she can control him. She doesn't eat and that is something she can't let "mortal" man know... which is weird.

Mel is a crazy redhead, I give you that, but I also think that she is R'hollor's biggest fangirl and will be more than willing to donate herself as a sacrifice to rezz Jon up as AA. She and Nissa Nissa both have a way of graoning and sighing in a way that makes you uncomfortable to watch as they experience pain or horror. I think it just happens to be in the weirwood grove and that is part of what she sees (misinterprets) in one of her visions as a ring of eyes or ring of brothers or something. I can't do a search at the moment. Plus, that location will let Bran see what's going on and who knows what could happen with that.

I do think that would be one hell of a way to give Cat her final death, if she were to give life to the "bastard" her husband brought home so many years ago. I am assuming that LSH/Cat would see the truth in Jon at that point in order to want to resurrect him?

[Good Guy Garlan]

I just remembered when Dalla says magic is a sword without a hilt. Such a random thing for her to say. But I'm still not convinced

 

[LCMormont_1529]

The Fattest Leech (btw, where's your Mama June avatar?) I can't remember a single hint of Val being anything other than a resourceful wildling. I could be wrong, of course. 

But I think Jon's definitely getting resurrected by R'hllor's magic, and given that Thoros and Stoneheart are way too far from the Wall, that duty's gonna fall to Mel. 

Why I think that? 

In aSoS, Jon has a dream in which he's standing on top of the Wall and there's a sword burning red in his fist.

So Jon's getting a flaming sword. And where have we seen a flaming sword in the series (an actual one, not a phony one like Stannis')? That's right: Beric had one. And he lit the sword using his own blood. 

So my theory is that the body of those resurrected by a red priest changes, that they are somehow supported by fire, to the point where they're very blood is volatile. Jon needs this if he's ever going to get that burning sword. 

Now you might be saying, "Wait a minute, nothing suggests Mel knows how to resurrect people like Thoros does". True, but I think the text offers evidence that Mel is Undead like Beric and Stoneheart. We know from her POV that she doesn't need to sleep or eat, and that her past is now only a distant memory. Like Beric. She's also never cold, not even at the Wall, which supports the theory that this kind of magic reanimates people using fire. 

@Good Guy Garlan
First off...LOVE your avatar, that was one of the best shows on TV. Too bad it got cancelled.

Back to your post. I've heard the theory that Mel will revive Jon, but it was always in the same sense that Thoros revived Beric not necessarily the way Beric revived UnCat by passing the fire on to her. I've also always assumed Mel is glamouring herself because she was old and ugly rather than dead. You've given me a reason to re-think my position that Val and possibly The Others will revive Jon.

I've always been of the mind that The Others were actually going to attack the wall right as Winds opens up, seeing or sensing an opportunity due to the chaos. The only thing that makes me think that is Jon felt "only the cold." Every time the Others themselves show up it gets very cold (in the prologue of AGoT, Fist of the First Men, etc.) During that time, or immediately after their attack succeeds, Jon would be revived as a wight and a short time later his true self stuck in Ghost would return thereby creating the Ice magic version of UnCat, Beric, or based on your theory Mel...or another Coldhands.

Touching on the first part bolded, that was a dream Jon had. I always read that as a metaphor (hyperbole? I never know ). Jon was clad in black ice and clutching a flaming sword. I read it as symbolizing his Valaryian steel sword rather than an actual sword.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

I just remembered when Dalla says magic is a sword without a hilt. Such a random thing for her to say. But I'm still not convinced

 

If anyone wants to read more about why Val may be a bigger key to the resurrection and most likely (hopefully) afterward than some may think, click the link. If there is no interest, that's cool because until we get the the last page of Dream of Spring , it's all just theory and choice. I happened to find this thread when I was searching the interwebs for the George article that gave more detail about Val. I couldn't find that but I did find this http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/66294-tormund-and-val-jons-intermediaries-to-the-old-gods/

And just want to add that Mel thinks this of Jon in her POV, "He does not love me, will never love me, but he will make use of me."

[Ice Turtle]

IMO, Val is the girl Jon  will sleep with while he will be in his "fu*k you Wattch" phase after the stabbing. She might also help to save his life but the two people more likely to be doing old gods magic are Bran and Bloodraven. 

[Ibbison from Ibben]

for those who haven't seen it -

Guess what Winged Wolves do? They resurrect dead heroes who have been slain by their brothers by using the Water of Life.

Story of Lyubim Tsarevich and the Winged Wolf

[The Fattest Leech]

IMO, Val is the girl Jon  will sleep with while he will be in his "fu*k you Wattch" phase after the stabbing. She might also help to save his life but the two people more likely to be doing old gods magic are Bran and Bloodraven. 

Haha. I love it. Anything is better than Jon and Dany hooking up in any sort of romantic way. Books (or TV) if that happens, I have lost the will to live.

I have no doubt that Bran and BR will be part of it somehow. Bran could be the one to show Jon in his dead minds-eye who his parents are, what is happening at the wall, whats going on with Ghost, where his siblings are or whatever, but it will take some some in-life talent to work on the body. I can agree a two-part mission could be what we see. Mel will be there and as a witness to this actual event she has been spiritually planning for, she could theoretically offer herself for Jon to "make use of her" as the Nissa Nissa portion of the prophecy- 'cuz remember, not all parts of the prophecy need to be literal.

Also, Morna is now there at CB. She happens to get there just in time before a certain stabby-stabby thing happens.

I just hope Ghost isn't sacrificed as the life pays for death pays for life thing.

[Jon leaves the Watch]

I think that Jon and Val are more likely to be romantically involved than Jon and Dany for sure. It makes more sense and the proximity part is there already. I think he will some how get out of his vows and will eventually have a high ranking position in the North, whether that is just as a Bannerman to Rickon or if Jon will become KITN, I can not say. But if he does I think he will marry Val. Too much chemistry between them.

[The Fattest Leech]

I think that Jon and Val are more likely to be romantically involved than Jon and Dany for sure. It makes more sense and the proximity part is there already. I think he will some how get out of his vows and will eventually have a high ranking position in the North, whether that is just as a Bannerman to Rickon or if Jon will become KITN, I can not say. But if he does I think he will marry Val. Too much chemistry between them.

If I was a Night's Watchman and I saw my leader get stabbed, die, body Popsicled in an ice cell for a bit, then set on fire among the holy crying trees THEN wake up and ask how long had be been napping... I'd tell him 5 minutes and offer some lemon water to freshen his breathe. 

Seriously though, if that did happen, I don't see too many people waving a contract in front of his face saying "can't leave, you promised." Clearly there are bigger and more important things to worry about including the Others and fiery dragons and a 700 foot wall crashing down, (and hopefully a literal ice dragon, but don't tell anyone I said that).

He died + he still protected you + the entire realm = debt paid.

[rozemarijn]

Maybe Val will be important in Ghost's arc. It is quite widely believed that Jon will warg in Ghost after he dies, which will preserve his soul and keep him from 'losing' parts of his personality like Cat and Beric. Even though it is a direwolf, the thing is locked up in a room surrounded by people who will most likely want to kill it. Now Jon is no longer there to control Ghost, it's just a wild animal which cannot be trusted.

I assume Val will be the one who realises this before anyone else does and gets him out, knowing Jon will be in Ghost. 

I don't see her doing the resurrection herself, but I think she will be essential for its succes by saving Jon's soul/ guarantee his body gets kept in the ice cells.

Also: we were promised we'd go further north as ever. Perhaps Jon's resurrection won't be for immediately and Ghost will roam the North for a while. The body will stay fresh in the ice cells.

[The Fattest Leech]

Maybe Val will be important in Ghost's arc. It is quite widely believed that Jon will warg in Ghost after he dies, which will preserve his soul and keep him from 'losing' parts of his personality like Cat and Beric. Even though it is a direwolf, the thing is locked up in a room surrounded by people who will most likely want to kill it. Now Jon is no longer there to control Ghost, it's just a wild animal which cannot be trusted.

I assume Val will be the one who realises this before anyone else does and gets him out, knowing Jon will be in Ghost. 

I don't see her doing the resurrection herself, but I think she will be essential for its succes by saving Jon's soul/ guarantee his body gets kept in the ice cells.

Also: we were promised we'd go further north as ever. Perhaps Jon's resurrection won't be for immediately and Ghost will roam the North for a while. The body will stay fresh in the ice cells.

I love it. Those are all very valid points and helps me develop my theory on this as well. Thanks

[the Greenleif Stark]

I'm in the "Mel won't bring Jon back" camp, I really don't think it makes muh sense. Mel's never done it before, that we know of and I just feel Jon's ties have always been to the Old Gods. I def think Val and/or Bran will be involved, not Mel and her false god.

[SevasTra82]

 

This is pretty much what I'm thinking.  I think most of Jon's arc in WOW will be in Ghost north of the Wall, where he will see the heart of whatever is going on up there.  GRRM did say that we will learn more about The Others in this book, and I think this is the perfect way to do it.

 

 

[LCMormont_1529]

I'm in the "Mel won't bring Jon back" camp, I really don't think it makes muh sense. Mel's never done it before, that we know of and I just feel Jon's ties have always been to the Old Gods. I def think Val and/or Bran will be involved, not Mel and her false god.

I thought the same thing, and to a high degree still do, but Good Guy Garlan makes a point that puts some doubt into my belief that he will resurrected via "Ice" magic. Garlan states that Mel is un-Dead which is a different type of resurrection. Most of us currently believe Mel can't do it because she has never shown that power BUT we are assuming that Mel is a living, breathing human (read not like Beric or unCat). With that assumption, you are right, Mel hasn't shown a power like Thoros of Myr to bring back the dead, and shouldn't be able to bring Jon back...but, to what degree did Thoros show it before he brought Beric back?

Using a different assumption (Mel is unDead) then, we can reasonably assume she CAN bring Jon back. There is precedent with Beric having "passed on the fire" to Cat. So if Mel is un-Dead, then we can assume she can pass the fire on to Jon.

I'm still on the Val/The North/Ice Magic side of Jon's resurrection. Something about Jon, his loyalty to Ned's teachings (honor), his loyalty to the Old Way's/Old God's, and his firm belief that he IS from The North makes me want to root for that outcome. PLUS, I neither trust nor like Mel.

[Curled Finger]

Lots of possibilities for Jon's helpers in revival.  Though I relish the poetic justice in redeeming LSH through her part in a resurrection, I think it's more likely she will send a certain crown to him rather than pass on the kiss of life.  Kissing Jon might be a bit too much for her.   Mel's such an obvious shoe in to be the key player in this that I would like that thwarted completely.   Val's abilities require a bit of research, but she's certainly got some skills we don't see on page.  But Val being entirely responsible in this rather muddies Jon's romantic interest waters for me.    Blood Raven has been given entirely too much supposed power and in order to not be considered a small folk repeating propaganda, he's out by virtue of having so little power, but I do think he or he and Bran may be able to send Jon visions before or during his revival.  I think an ice resurrection from the little I know would indicate he comes back wightified, which doesn't serve anything so far as I can tell.   If it means he becomes Otherfied then I fail to see how he can fulfill the song of ice and fire.   Nope, I think it requires the fire element closer to Valyrian blood magic than Rh'llor blood magic.  I'm going with the cremation surprise heal on this one.   That certainly wouldn't negate any contribution Mel, Val, BR, LSH or anyone else can make but still maintain a certain purity of Jon's Targaryan blood.   At some point that needs to become important and prevalent to the story.  If that makes any sense at all.