Oregon militia almost killed me

[Martell Spy]

 

Quote

 

In the immediate situation there was very little choice involved. But in whatever negotiations may have taken place in the days and weeks prior some sort of non-lethal solution may have been achievable. I'm not sure when in the timeline this guy basically announced his intention to become a suicide gunman*, but the feds/cops knew this guy was pretty serious about not being taken alive before they set up a probably lethal situation. I hope there's some investigation of the situation and an examination of what could be done differently to avoid that kind of death. 

The best outcome is to actually get the guy behind bars. Achieving exactly the opposite of what he wants is the only way to achieve a victory over such a group. If the Feds / cops resigned themselves to probably having to kill him then he'd pretty much won a moral victory before the confrontation even happened. In the minds of LaVoy and his supporters the only way he loses is if he ends up alive and in prison. 

I don't call it suicide by cop, because this guy was looking to die and kill for a cause, which is not much different to a suicide bomber. Suicide by cop is someone just wanting to die.

 

 

Yeah, not sure what they could have done to stopped any loss of life. It was a pretty big win for law enforcement, despite this. They were able to ignore a lot of pressure on them to do something sooner, including from the Oregon Governor. Law enforcement was patient and let the militia get comfortable coming and going, then got them way away from the refuge. All sorts of ways it could have gone down messier, and this is no where near the moral victory the militia wanted.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

It really is a shame they couldn't have held out a little longer. My kickstarter to raise funds to buy them Antonio Banderas blowup dolls had almost reached it's goal.

[Swordfish]

11 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

In the immediate situation there was very little choice involved. But in whatever negotiations may have taken place in the days and weeks prior some sort of non-lethal solution may have been achievable. I'm not sure when in the timeline this guy basically announced his intention to become a suicide gunman*, but the feds/cops knew this guy was pretty serious about not being taken alive before they set up a probably lethal situation. I hope there's some investigation of the situation and an examination of what could be done differently to avoid that kind of death. 

The best outcome is to actually get the guy behind bars. Achieving exactly the opposite of what he wants is the only way to achieve a victory over such a group. If the Feds / cops resigned themselves to probably having to kill him then he'd pretty much won a moral victory before the confrontation even happened. In the minds of LaVoy and his supporters the only way he loses is if he ends up alive and in prison. 

I don't call it suicide by cop, because this guy was looking to die and kill for a cause, which is not much different to a suicide bomber. Suicide by cop is someone just wanting to die.

I'm basically of the same mind.

As much as I disagree with what these thugs were doing, it's not like I trust the cops very much either to deescalate these kinds of situations.

 

[The Anti-Targ]

15 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

 

 

Yeah, not sure what they could have done to stopped any loss of life. It was a pretty big win for law enforcement, despite this. They were able to ignore a lot of pressure on them to do something sooner, including from the Oregon Governor. Law enforcement was patient and let the militia get comfortable coming and going, then got them way away from the refuge. All sorts of ways it could have gone down messier, and this is no where near the moral victory the militia wanted.

Well, they have a martyr now. And there's nothing so powerful as a motivator than a martyr to the cause. There's now a benchmark of sacrifice for their cause which is losing one's life. When you mix that sort of example with fanatical righteousness then more trouble is likely to follow. Unless of course everyone else is lilly livered and too cowardly to be prepared to die for their cause. It's easy enough to wave a gun around and say you're prepared to kill for what you believe in, it's a lot harder to be prepared to die for it. Harder still is refusing to kill but still be prepared to die.

[Martell Spy]

Quote

Well, they have a martyr now. And there's nothing so powerful as a motivator than a martyr to the cause. There's now a benchmark of sacrifice for their cause which is losing one's life. When you mix that sort of example with fanatical righteousness then more trouble is likely to follow. Unless of course everyone else is lilly livered and too cowardly to be prepared to die for their cause. It's easy enough to wave a gun around and say you're prepared to kill for what you believe in, it's a lot harder to be prepared to die for it. Harder still is refusing to kill but still be prepared to die.

 

 

I don't really see it as a cowardice issue. It's more of a stupidity issue. Their cause was pathetic to start with and they are basically spoiled kids. They need to go live in Flint if they want a taste of some actual tyranny.

But even starting with a pathetic cause, they could have made out better for themselves by acting with dignity and reason. They could have protested without guns for example and they'd all still be alive. They might try to make something of this, but it won't go far. This was mostly a victory for law enforcement, given how much more could have gone wrong. 

 

 

 

 

[The Anti-Targ]

Just watched the raw footage. LaVoy definitely looks like he's reaching into his jacket a few times before he's shot. And by the look of his arms being outstretched when he first gets out of the truck (in a sort of surrendering manner) it is hard to know for sure whether it was a clean shooting. It all comes down, I think, to what people are saying. And with this aerial film there is no chance of any audio coming from this.

However, I guess if police have been found to have been justified in shooting people that look like they are grabbing for a weapon, and the person shot ends up being unarmed. I guess you have to conclude that this person actually being armed makes the police reaction to a person looking like they are reaching for a weapon a more defensible police action than in cases where the person who was shot is unarmed. I guess also that if a person is saying they're surrendering, but not obeying police commands (like get on your knees with your hands behind your head, or words to that effect) then police are somewhat entitled to act based on the person's actions rather than their words.

[Swordfish]

23 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

ust watched the raw footage. LaVoy definitely looks like he's reaching into his jacket a few times before he's shot. And by the look of his arms being outstretched when he first gets out of the truck (in a sort of surrendering manner) it is hard to know for sure whether it was a clean shooting. It all comes down, I think, to what people are saying. And with this aerial film there is no chance of any audio coming from this.

However, I guess if police have been found to have been justified in shooting people that look like they are grabbing for a weapon, and the person shot ends up being unarmed. I guess you have to conclude that this person actually being armed makes the police reaction to a person looking like they are reaching for a weapon a more defensible police action than in cases where the person who was shot is unarmed. I guess also that if a person is saying they're surrendering, but not obeying police commands (like get on your knees with your hands behind your head, or words to that effect) then police are somewhat entitled to act based on the person's actions rather than their words.

 

It's another very good argument for body cameras.  I'm interested in why they released the aerial footage, but not the dash cam footage, though i suppose it's possible no police cars were facing the interaction.  Shouldn't there at least be audio though?

 

[Aint Nuthin But A HoundDog]

I've been following the Oregon showdown closely since day one, as I am a huge fan of our national parks system and wildlife conservation efforts. I feel like the feds and the local authorities have bent over backwards to avoid confrontation or bloodshed with these freedumb-fighting rodeo clowns. LaVoy Finnicum died because he (a) fled the scene of a traffic stop and tried to bust through a road block, then (b) once his vehicle was stranded he got out and ran, and (c) instead of leaving his hands in the air as instructed by the cop who had a gun on him, he reached inside or toward his jacket pocket, where he kept a loaded 9 mm. Earlier he had vowed numerous times that he would rather die than go to jail. He committed suicide by cop.

And I am SO sick and tired of all these inbred yahoos who cherry pick and twist the Constitution's words to suit their Ayn Rand wet dream agenda.

Can't wait to get the last of those idiot stragglers out of the national wildlife refuge so people can begin to repair all the damage they have caused to the ecosystem and archeological sites during their little redneck Boy Scout adventure.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

If you are a bit into schadenfreude and guilty laughs, then I can highly recommend the comments on the fox news page on the Oregen ranchers.
It's really mind boggling, and a bit like a twilight zone relaunched. 

[Martell Spy]

Looks like it's almost over. And they got Cliven Bundy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/02/10/fbi-closes-in-on-last-oregon-refuge-occupiers/

Cliven Bundy arrested in Portland as Oregon occupiers say they will surrender Thursday

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Since I was curious how the story continue(d), I entered Ammon Bundy into google. 

The trial appears to be going quite well, for everyone not named Bundy.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2016/09/judge_threatens_ammon_bundy_if.html

 

And apparently he took the witness stand in his own trial.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/10/prosecutors_brief_cross-examin.html

 

Follow the leader, but I am so not the leader.

 

[Weeping Sore]

So these bozos were actually acquitted yesterday http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/28/us/bundy-brothers-acquitted-in-takeover-of-oregon-wildlife-refuge.html

I don't know what to say. Hoping there will at least be a civil suit over property damages? DA probably lost the case during the jury selection process...

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 minutes ago, Weeping Sore said:

So these bozos were actually acquitted yesterday http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/28/us/bundy-brothers-acquitted-in-takeover-of-oregon-wildlife-refuge.html

I don't know what to say. Hoping there will at least be a civil suit over property damages? DA probably lost the case during the jury selection process...

I have a friend who was a Solicitor (DA in South Carolina) who refused to use her jury strikes for anything but "cause" (potential juror is related to or knows the defendant).  She is now a State Circuit court judge.  She said if she couldn't win with any jury she shouldn't bring the case to trial.  She never lost.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/28/us/bundy-brothers-acquitted-in-takeover-of-oregon-wildlife-refuge.html?_r=0

 

 Holy shit, I just came across this. WTF?  

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 Now with added "Don't Tase Me Bro" addendum...

 http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/10/as_trial_ends_surreal_scene_le.html?Stunning&utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

[aceluby]

I don't understand this at all.  Like it's completely mind boggling.  I'm hoping someone of a legal mind can come up with some sort of explanation here, because I see this as just ridiculous.

[kairparavel]

1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/28/us/bundy-brothers-acquitted-in-takeover-of-oregon-wildlife-refuge.html?_r=0

 

 Holy shit, I just came across this. WTF?  

 

To steal a quote from elsewhere 'Watch whiteness work.'

 

1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 Now with added "Don't Tase Me Bro" addendum...

 http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/10/as_trial_ends_surreal_scene_le.html?Stunning&utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

"I grew up on a dairy farm, so am I used to some rough treatment, sure?'' Mumford told reporters, after his release.

What exactly was he doing with those cows?

[Iskaral Pust]

Localized juries are a problem when a strong local view or attitude clashes with the national law.  Didn't the same thing happen in the south with acquittals for KKK, cross burnings and other attacks on blacks?  Perhaps it's time to collect jury pools from around the country and use video conferencing. 

[Weeping Sore]

Some, (maybe just the Bundy brothers themselves?) are still facing charges in Nevada, so maybe they'll still get a measure of comeuppance...and I hope a civil action could still recover for some of the damages to federal property.

Still boggles the mind.

[Swordfish]

2 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 Now with added "Don't Tase Me Bro" addendum...

 http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/10/as_trial_ends_surreal_scene_le.html?Stunning&utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

This is hilarious.

29 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

Localized juries are a problem when a strong local view or attitude clashes with the national law.  Didn't the same thing happen in the south with acquittals for KKK, cross burnings and other attacks on blacks?  Perhaps it's time to collect jury pools from around the country and use video conferencing. 

As far as i know, the community did not really support these guys or their views, particularly in Portland

Is there some reason to believe otherwise?

My understanding here, which is admittedly limited, was that the issue was around the federal conspiracy charge specifically, speculation seems to be that they just didn't have the evidence for that charge, and that it was probably a mistake from the beginning by the AG.