who is the truest hero, if there is one, in this very grey series

[FuzzyJAM]

You know, it really pisses me off that Davos cheated on his wife.  It seems really out of character and a cheap "See, he's not perfect!" trick.  At the very least, if Davos did cheat, he'd feel damn awful about it forever afterwards.  

I don't care what Martin wrote, my Davos did not cheat on his wife, or if he did he is tormented by his wrongdoing.  No fucking way he takes a casual attitude to it.  

[mankytoes]

You know, it really pisses me off that Davos cheated on his wife.  It seems really out of character and a cheap "See, he's not perfect!" trick.  At the very least, if Davos did cheat, he'd feel damn awful about it forever afterwards.  

I don't care what Martin wrote, my Davos did not cheat on his wife, or if he did he is tormented by his wrongdoing.  No fucking way he takes a casual attitude to it.  

I think Davos was a more grey person pre Stannis- it's easy to forget he was a career criminal as well. He didn't really believe in much, until Stannis came along. I agree that our Davos, as in the Davos whose thoughts we read, wouldn't cheat on his wife. However, pre series, pre character development Davos? He's an opportunistic criminal, keeping company with thieves and pirates, in a culture where male cheating isn't a big deal.

When Stannis took his fingers, I think Davos saw it a bit like a baptism. He isn't going to obsess about all his wrongdoings from back then- he paid the penalty. That was Davos the smuggler. He is Davos the knight, the Lord, the King's Hand.

[Son of Man]

In my opinion, to be considered a hero, you must have done something to benefit a great many people.  In America, we consider Washington and Lincoln heroes.  Yet both men made decisions that resulted in the deaths of many young men, some of which were collateral to the war they started to win freedom for themselves or for someone else.  They are heroes because they picked a side, chose a worthy cause, made sacrifices, and led their side to victory.  Their cause had the moral superiority to the opposition.  Choosing to bring freedom to slaves is morally superior to choosing to continue enslaving people.  That is not a difficult concept to comprehend.  To me, there is one character in this story who qualifies as a great hero, and that is Daenerys. 

Honorable mentions to Barristan, Darry, Brienne, and Jaime.  I hate Jaime but he saved a lot of people. 

[SeanF]

In my opinion, to be considered a hero, you must have done something to benefit a great many people. In America, we consider Washington and Lincoln heroes. Yet both men made decisions that resulted in the deaths of many young men, some of which were collateral to the war they started to win freedom for themselves or for someone else. They are heroes because they picked a side, chose a worthy cause, made sacrifices, and led their side to victory. Their cause had the moral superiority to the opposition. Choosing to bring freedom to slaves is morally superior to choosing to continue enslaving people. That is not a difficult concept to comprehend. To me, there is one character in this story who qualifies as a great hero, and that is Daenerys.

Honorable mentions to Barristan, Darry, Brienne, and Jaime. I hate Jaime but he saved a lot of people.

As RBPL pointed out, a hero may also fail. Lord Chelsted was a hero for dying horribly, rather than countenance the murder of innocent people. He achieved nothing, but standing up to Aerys took immense courage.

[lidsa]

Arya.  

But then I also think the Punisher is a better hero than most other heroes.

[Woman of War]

In my opinion, to be considered a hero, you must have done something to benefit a great many people. In America, we consider Washington and Lincoln heroes.  Yet both men made decisions that resulted in the deaths of many young men, some of which were collateral to the war they started to win freedom for themselves or for someone else.  They are heroes because they picked a side, chose a worthy cause, made sacrifices, and led their side to victory.  Their cause had the moral superiority to the opposition. 

......

 

the bolded part may be what will mark a hero  for some in ASOIAF or in our world but it would NOT be my hero definition.

I am not a religious person but here Jesus had it right: (paraphrasing) What you have failed to do to the least of your brothers you have failed to do to me. Or from the Quran: Who saves one human being, saves the whole world ( sorry for my English) 

After the bolded above hero definition by quantity the greatest, the truest and the best hero would be  the one who achieves the most, who saves the  most people (or who has the least horrible relation of killing and saving people) in short who happens to be the most quantitative successful in doing good things  in the end.

Imo this shows only that the potential hero has been the most politically savvy, the best planner and the boldest one. And there is the component of luck: having been there at the right moment of history. Optimal results need heroism and courage but they need so much more. Brain for example: don't jump into the water  to save the drowning person if you can't swim, call 911!

Heroism can't be measured in success imo. It is something different for me: How far have you been able to grow above yourself, to do what no one expected of you. How willing have you been to swim against the tide and to speak up when everyone else decides to look away? How willing are you to push your limits, to leave your comfort zone, to maybe risk your life for freedom of all or for just one person? The one who jumps between the bullet and her comrade is no less a hero than the one who abolishes slavery and gets shot for it. And it does not matter if the heroic nurse has been a shoplifter before or if Mr President has always had the right motivations. They are heroes here and now.

........or if Daenerys, Jon, Tyrion, Arya or whoever has made cruel decisions and mistakes out of ignorance or malice in the past when in the end they are the ones who grow above themselves. Who are not calculating their personal gain  at that moment but who do here and now what has to be done. (Better not stupidly but using  their brain of course.) Those who  put themselves behind all else and give up all personal ambitions and desires to do the one thing to save the world or maybe just  one person if that is the only option left to them. Then in the end they will be as much true heroes as those who have always been our heroes like Davos or Brienne. And certainly a hundred times more than the conventional hero, the great swordsman who wins one more swordfight, meh. As much as I like Oberyn: if he had won, would he be a true hero or just badass? Sam the coward was a hero, not running and leaving Gilly behind but despite all odds trying his best.

We will praise the ones who did the spectacular deed and finally, sensation seeking as we are, forget those peasant women who stay behind in their cabin and manage to keep their children  alive through winter, the truest heroes in every (hi)story imo.

 

[Grazdan of Ghis]

Slavery is evil. It's not just another part of that culture. Sure, it is hard to get rid of evil things and Slaver's bay could have been handled better by Daenerys, but she is a teenager with no political knowledge. She did her best.

Slavery is evil? Are you suggesting that all our ancestors since earliest times of recorded history (Ancient Egypt, c. 3500 BC) uptill the fall of Roman Empire (c. 500 A.D.) were evil? Are you suggestion that all members of the ruling class of the 17th-19th century Americas and Russia were evil.Because slavery was practiced in those cultures and was not considered immoral.

[mankytoes]

In my opinion, to be considered a hero, you must have done something to benefit a great many people.  In America, we consider Washington and Lincoln heroes.  Yet both men made decisions that resulted in the deaths of many young men, some of which were collateral to the war they started to win freedom for themselves or for someone else.  They are heroes because they picked a side, chose a worthy cause, made sacrifices, and led their side to victory.  Their cause had the moral superiority to the opposition.  Choosing to bring freedom to slaves is morally superior to choosing to continue enslaving people.  That is not a difficult concept to comprehend.  To me, there is one character in this story who qualifies as a great hero, and that is Daenerys. 

Honorable mentions to Barristan, Darry, Brienne, and Jaime.  I hate Jaime but he saved a lot of people. 

But you also consider a guy who runs into a burning building and saves some little kiddies a hero, no? So there are different kinds of hero. Davos was a hero for saving Edric Storm from the fire at great personal risk.

[John Doe]

Slavery is evil? Are you suggesting that all our ancestors since earliest times of recorded history (Ancient Egypt, c. 3500 BC) uptill the fall of Roman Empire (c. 500 A.D.) were evil? Are you suggestion that all members of the ruling class of the 17th-19th century Americas and Russia were evil.Because slavery was practiced in those cultures and was not considered immoral.

Yeah, it gets kinda stupid on here at times. I like it best when people argue against moral relativism.

[Jeeves]

 

Jon got his power because nobles get preferential treatment at the wall.  Jon's dedication to the job falls way short of men like Qorin Halfhand and Maester Aemon.  Leaders and soldiers are called on to make sacrifices.  Jon's true colors revealed themselves when he chose to help Arya, even knowing his actions are treason and harmful to the wall.  

[Jeeves]

Slavery is evil? Are you suggesting that all our ancestors since earliest times of recorded history (Ancient Egypt, c. 3500 BC) uptill the fall of Roman Empire (c. 500 A.D.) were evil? Are you suggestion that all members of the ruling class of the 17th-19th century Americas and Russia were evil.Because slavery was practiced in those cultures and was not considered immoral.

Bullshit, just because those ancients failed to realize that slavery was evil does not excuse the practice.  I would say, they chose to do what they wanted to do and then invented all kinds of justifications for it.   Not everyone's ancestors came from slave-owning cultures.  I cannot speak for the person you responded directly to, but I will give my opinion.  Yes, if your ancestors enslaved other people, then your ancestors were evil.  They were guilty of a serious crime against humanity.   Those ruling classes who owned slaves and supported that brutal practice were evil.  

[Dragonsmurf]

Slavery is evil? Are you suggesting that all our ancestors since earliest times of recorded history (Ancient Egypt, c. 3500 BC) uptill the fall of Roman Empire (c. 500 A.D.) were evil? Are you suggestion that all members of the ruling class of the 17th-19th century Americas and Russia were evil.Because slavery was practiced in those cultures and was not considered immoral.

Yes, those cultures were clearly evil. I'm not saying that every slave-owning individual was evil because their culture thought them it wasn't immoral, but the practice in itself was and is still evil.

[John Doe]

 Not everyone's ancestors came from slave-owning cultures.  I

I bet 90% at least do.

[Jeeves]

On 1/16/2016 at 0:10 PM, John Doe said:

I bet 90% at least do.

I have to disagree.  

[Jeeves]

On 1/14/2016 at 3:45 PM, Grazdan of Ghis said:

Slavery is evil? Are you suggesting that all our ancestors since earliest times of recorded history (Ancient Egypt, c. 3500 BC) uptill the fall of Roman Empire (c. 500 A.D.) were evil? Are you suggestion that all members of the ruling class of the 17th-19th century Americas and Russia were evil.Because slavery was practiced in those cultures and was not considered immoral.

Are you justifying the practice of slavery because you believe many people engaged in it?  Many  cultures today still practice the removal of the clitoris.  According to your logic they should be allowed to continue because many of them were raised to think its ok.  Many people enjoy dog fighting.  Many more do not actively train nor run these events but they watch and bet.   Ok, lets cut through the bullshit.  Daenerys is correct to free those slaves.  Those who got killed were all involved and profited from the slave trade.  Because of  Dany, 500K former slaves have freedom.  That makes her a true hero.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 14/1/2016 at 2:20 AM, Lame Lothar Frey said:

Read carefully, I said "might have helped."  I do think Stannis is one of the bad guys.  He is a kinslayer, who used his shadow to kill Renly.  For the record, I think that is fine.  Kill one guy and prevent a prolonged war.  Now, hopefully, those same people who say "the Boltons have no real claim to Winterfell because Roose didn't claim it on the battlefield" will see the disconnect.

~Sure why I am even surprised. It’s not like that in the books Stannis obviously didn’t knew what would happen if he had sex or how Mel used his seed.

 

Dany just gave freedom to 250K former slaves!  You don't get to do that without spilling blood.  Blame the Harpy and the Masters for not being agreeable to giving their slaves freedom.  Those fuckers were resisting the idea of giving freedom to their slaves.  They are the real villains in Slaver's Bay.   That world and that society needed to be destroyed as it is an evil society built on taking freedom away from other people and treating them like disposable property.   Unfortunately, the masters are not just going to agree to give up their "property" and make them their equal without shedding blood.

~That is exactly how people who commit genocide excuse themselves for what they have done.

 

He swore an oath of serving and obeying.  An oath trumps the lives of a few people.  Don't forget, that damned Brandon threatened Prince Rhaegar.

~Where? Where in the books it is mentioned that an oath matters more than the life of innocent people.

 

I'm referring to the man who got rid of Black Harren and Argilac.  The man who build the seven kingdoms and founded the Targaryen monarchy.  The man who knocked the Ironborn down on their asses and reduced their power.

~Utter bs. Being a tyrant doesn’t make you a hero. It makes you the strongest villain around.

 

Absolutely.  And that prevented a prolonged war with the Vale.

~You mean the war of the Vale people who wanted to be free?

 

The dragons helped the Targaryens build the seven kingdoms.  They will help bring freedom to millions of people in Essos.

~They also have killed millions and millions of people. They are just beasts, medieval WMD not heroes.

As I said before. I am nto sure if trolling or serious.

[the Greenleif Stark]

IMO, a "hero" is easy to define...its a person who displays bravery while directly putting themself in harms way at the benefit of others, its an impulse, seeing and reacting, its the guy that jumps on a grenade to save his buddies, or the guy running into a fire to save someone, protecting others while disregarding your own health. That's a hero, that's heroism. Choosing to do the morally correct things doesn't automatically make you a hero. Black, white or gray, all characters can do heroic things, it all depends on situations and reactions. I think its obvious Dunk is the closest we get to "truest hero" in this world.

[SayGen]

Of all the characters mentioned so far, none are the "classical" hero. Some are more modern (20th century) flawed hero-- but none are the classical 'Jesus' perfect hero.

[khal drogon]

17 minutes ago, SayGen said:

Of all the characters mentioned so far, none are the "classical" hero. Some are more modern (20th century) flawed hero-- but none are the classical 'Jesus' perfect hero.

Thank GRRM we don't have any of them.

[Tommy Lannister]

What about Arnolf Karstark? he is a loyal nothern who serves his liege lord (Roose) by fightingh a southern invader (Stannis)