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From Death to Dawn #3: Sansa, Lyanna, Jaime, Rhaegar, and the Search for One True Knight


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FROM DEATH TO DAWN #3

SANSA, LYANNA, JAIME, RHAEGAR: THE SEARCH FOR ONE TRUE KNIGHT

(with guest appearances by Arya, Brienne, and Cersei)

As they scrubbed her down with soap and sluiced warm water over her head, all she could see were the faces from the bailey. Knights are sworn to defend the weak, protect women, and fight for the right, but none of them did a thing. Only Ser Dontos had tried to help, and he was no longer a knight, no more than the Imp was, nor the Hound . . . the Hound hated knights . . . I hate them too, Sansa thought. They are no true knights, not one of them. Clash, Sansa III

“Hear me out, Brienne. Both of us swore oaths concerning Sansa Stark. Cersei means to see that the girl is found and killed, wherever she has gone to ground . . ."

Brienne's homely face twisted in fury. "If you believe that I would harm my lady's daughter for a sword, you—"

"Just listen," he snapped, angered by her assumption. "I want you to find Sansa first, and get her somewhere safe. How else are the two of us going to make good our stupid vows to your precious dead Lady Catelyn?" Storm, Jaime IX

VERY Short Version: Martin makes it very clear that Sansa echoes Lyanna’s main known plot points. And that Sansa needs a true knight—a rarity. But Jaime, who echoes some of Rhaegar’s known plot, has a true knight to send Sansa: Brienne. Who echoes Arthur Dayne. The true knight is needed to help the wolf-maid. With Sansa and Jaime, and Martin may be giving us the basic outline of what happened with Lyanna, Rhaegar, and a true knight.

NOTE: I thought the original version of "From Death to Dawn #3: Jon as Sword of the Morning--and Any Related Issues" was lost. But it and all of the posts are here. The current #3 thread builds on the previous ones, too. Just in a different direction. 

PART I: SANSA AND ARYA ECHO LYANNA FROM THE START

A. What happened to Lyanna between Harrenhal and a room that smelled of blood and roses? What started her journey back to the Winterfell crypts?

1. Martin makes it VERY clear in Game that Sansa and Arya are echoing Lyanna. So if you want to know how Lyanna went from defending Howland to dead, follow the rose maids.

B. Sansa=Lyanna’s intended marriage to join houses by marrying the “Baratheon” heir.

QUOTE: "Come south with me, and I'll teach you how to laugh again," the king promised. "You helped me win this damnable throne, now help me hold it. We were meant to rule together. If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection. Well, it is not too late. I have a son. You have a daughter. My Joff and your Sansa shall join our houses, as Lyanna and I might once have done." Game, Eddard I

C. Arya=Lyanna’s wolf blooded role (though Sansa has some, too)

QUOTE: Her father sighed. "Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. "Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her." Game, Arya II

PART II: SANSA /LADY ECHOES LYANNA’S DEATH: CAUSED BY SPITE 

A. Lady’s death echoes the few facts we have on Lyanna’s death.

1. On Lyanna’s Death and Burial:

QUOTE: "She was more beautiful than that," the king said after a silence. His eyes lingered on Lyanna's face, as if he could will her back to life. Finally he rose, made awkward by his weight. "Ah, damn it, Ned, did you have to bury her in a place like this?" His voice was hoarse with remembered grief. "She deserved more than darkness …"

"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers." Game, Eddard I

QUOTE: Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride. Game, Eddard I

2. On Lady’s Death and Burial:

QUOTE: "No," Ned said. "Jory, take the girls back to their rooms and bring me Ice." The words tasted of bile in his throat, but he forced them out. "If it must be done, I will do it."

Cersei Lannister regarded him suspiciously. "You, Stark? Is this some trick? Why would you do such a thing?"

They were all staring at him, but it was Sansa's look that cut. "She is of the north. She deserves better than a butcher."

He left the room with his eyes burning and his daughter's wails echoing in his ears, and found the direwolf pup where they chained her. Ned sat beside her for a while. "Lady," he said, tasting the name. He had never paid much attention to the names the children had picked, but looking at her now, he knew that Sansa had chosen well. She was the smallest of the litter, the prettiest, the most gentle and trusting. She looked at him with bright golden eyes, and he ruffled her thick grey fur.

Shortly, Jory brought him Ice.

When it was over, he said, "Choose four men and have them take the body north. Bury her at Winterfell."

"All that way?" Jory said, astonished.

"All that way," Ned affirmed. "The Lannister woman shall never have this skin." Game, Eddard III.

B. Thus, only a quarter of the way through Game, Martin tells us that Sansa/Lady bookends Lyanna’s plot. Shows us an early known fact: betrothals. Then, deaths and burials.

C. But Lady’s death also gives us the initial cause of Lyanna’s death: spite.

1. It starts in the Riverlands, not many leagues from Harrenhal.

2. Joffrey attacks Mycah to bully him and show off. But is backed off by wolf maids.

3. Arya is sought for and ultimately dragged before Robert.

4. Robert knows Joffrey is lying (admits it later) but does nothing

5. Robert lets Cersei bully him into killing Lady:

QUOTE: Robert's face darkened with anger. "That would be a fine trick, without a wolf."

"We have a wolf," Cersei Lannister said. Her voice was very quiet, but her green eyes shone with triumph.

It took them all a moment to comprehend her words, but when they did, the king shrugged irritably. "As you will. Have Ser Ilyn see to it."

"Robert, you cannot mean this," Ned protested. Game, Eddard III

6. Ned then insists on taking Lady’s life himself and on taking her back to Winterfell.

D. How did Lyanna get dead?

1. Ned remembers a bed of blood—which strongly implies complications from childbirth. While Lady is Iced by Ned.

2. But scene with Cersei and Robert gives us an initial cause: spite. Spite over a perceived insult/offense. Spite from a Targaryen wannabe who doesn’t care that she has the wrong wolf for a crime no one committed. She still strikes a blow against Robert and Ned. “We have a wolf.” That’s how the Wolf Maid’s death starts.

3. It’s a “cause” that fits the tale of Bael the Bard and the Blue Winter Rose.

CONTINUED IN NEXT POST

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PART III: CLASH: THE WOLF MAID NEEDS A TRUE KNIGHT—

BUT NED AND HOWLAND KILLED THE FINEST OF THEM ALL

A. Before Clash starts, Lyanna’s echoes, Sansa and Arya, have both rejected the Targ-wannabes and seek “true” warriors.

1. Sansa gets caught by the Targ wannabes, in part through her own willfulness.  Sansa’s change is bigger than Arya’s. She’s repulsed by Joffrey and Cersei. Joffrey is echoing the Mad King in his brutality and peevishness.

2. Sansa still instinctively wants a knight to help her. But Sansa’s not yet learned to judge.

3. Arya escapes—only with help from a sworn black brother going above and beyond for a Stark maid. Arya rightly trusts Syrio, the former First Sword. But he could only help her run away. Arya’s savior sworn brother, Yoren, isn’t cuddly. But he keeps her safe until the Targ wannabes take over. Lucky for Arya, she’s unknown and can hide under other names.

B. Sansa’s not so lucky. But she knows what she needs. Sansa’s known, stuck, and guarded. But she knows she needs help (as does Arya) from a knight. She prays to the old gods and the new.

QUOTE: Sansa had prayed so hard. Could this be her answer at last, a true knight sent to save her? Perhaps it was one of the Redwyne twins, or bold Ser Balon Swann . . . or even Beric Dondarrion, the young lord her friend Jeyne Poole had loved, with his red-gold hair and the spray of stars on his black cloak. Clash, Sansa II

—NOTE: Sansa is trying to evaluate knights. And she’s doing better. Beric “helps” Arya later.

C. But judging better isn’t enough. Sansa needs a better helper.

QUOTE: Some serving girls took charge of her, mouthing meaningless comforts to stop her shaking. One stripped off the ruins of her gown and smallclothes, and another bathed her and washed the sticky juice from her face and her hair. As they scrubbed her down with soap and sluiced warm water over her head, all she could see were the faces from the bailey. Knights are sworn to defend the weak, protect women, and fight for the right, but none of them did a thing. Only Ser Dontos had tried to help, and he was no longer a knight, no more than the Imp was, nor the Hound . . . the Hound hated knights . . . I hate them too, Sansa thought. They are no true knights, not one of them. Clash, Sansa III

1. As shown in Sansa’ very next Clash POV, these Kingsguard are brutes. No true knights.

2. NOTE: Sansa does not say “there are no true knights.” She says, “they are no true knights.” Sansa still believes in the ideals of knighthood.

D. Ned shares Sansa’s sentiment: the Kingsguard have fallen. But he and Bran share Sansa’s enduring belief in knightly ideals. And Ned knows there was a better knight.

QUOTE: Something his father had told him once when he was little came back to him suddenly. He had asked Lord Eddard if the Kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. "No longer," he answered, "but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world.

"Was there one who was best of all?"

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.

He went to sleep with his head full of knights in gleaming armor, fighting with swords that shone like starfire. Clash, Bran III.

1. The Kingsguard ideals have failed. But Ned knew who the true knight was. The kind Bran dreams of when discouraged. The kind Sansa now needs.

E. One Kingsguard refuses to beat Sansa, gives her his cloak when she needs it, and actually saves her when Mad Joff refuses to do so—the Hound. But he mocks Sansa’s ideals.

QUOTE: "All?" he mocked. "Tell me, little bird, what kind of god makes a monster like the Imp, or a halfwit like Lady Tanda's daughter? If there are gods, they made sheep so wolves could eat mutton, and they made the weak for the strong to play with."

"True knights protect the weak."

He snorted. "There are no true knights, no more than there are gods. If you can't protect yourself, die and get out of the way of those who can. Sharp steel and strong arms rule this world, don't ever believe any different."

Sansa backed away from him. "You're awful.

"I'm honest. It's the world that's awful. Now fly away, little bird, I'm sick of you peeping at me."

Wordless, she fled. She was afraid of Sandor Clegane . . . and yet, some part of her wished that Ser Dontos had a little of the Hound's ferocity. There are gods, she told herself, and there are true knights too. All the stories can't be lies. Clash, Sansa VI

1. Sandor is no true knight. Or a knight at all.

2. Ned tells Bran there was a true knight while the Hound mocks Sansa for still believing in the idea.

3. Sansa, like Ned, Bran, and other Starks, still believes in honor and knighthood. In an ideal. Arya, too, believes in “faithfulness.” She’s angry at Harwin for no longer being her father’s man. Sansa and Arya need both the faith and the reality. A knight/sworn fighter with the strength to follow ideals.

F. Still, the Hound does offer to take Sansa out of it all. Her influence changes him. And he rejects his cloak because of the use of Targ wildfire.

QUOTE: Clegane's eyes turned toward the distant fires. "All this burning." He sheathed his sword. "Only cowards fight with fire." Clash, Sansa VII

QUOTE: Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers. The room was too dark for her to see him, but she could feel the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood. "Little bird," he said once more, his voice raw and harsh as steel on stone. Then he rose from the bed. Sansa heard cloth ripping, followed by the softer sound of retreating footsteps.

When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering. Clash, Sansa VII

G. But this isn’t enough. The Hound is too dangerous for Sansa to trust yet. Not a true knight.

1. Dontos is useless and a lackey of Baelish. Oakheart, who tries to not beat Sansa too hard, has sailed for Dorne with Myrcella, relieved. But in his Feast POV, he’s still haunted over what he did to Sansa, over failing as a knight.

H. BOTTOM LINE FOR CLASH OF KINGS:

1. Sansa has identified exactly what she needs. And why she can’t have it. But Ned knew a knight exactly like the one she now needs. Unfortunately, Ned and Arthur are dead.

2. Sansa’s bookends Lyana’s plotline.

3. So, in this novel filled with Sansa’s cold reality of no true knights, what was Lyanna’s reality? There was a true knight in her time: the finest knight Ned ever saw.

4. The true knight is what’s missing, for Sansa and Arya. A true knight who remembers he is “sworn to defend the weak, protect women, and fight for the right” And will do something about it.

PART IV: STORM: CONFIRMING THE NEED FOR A TRUE KNIGHT

A. The Hound and Lord Beric “help” both Arya and Sansa—and fail.

1. The Hound shows up with Arya—a faulty Kingsguard who rejects his cloak.  But he does manage to protect Arya and get her out of the Twins.

2. So, twice now, Arya’s been saved from family catastrophes by a faulty sworn brother.

3. Arya’s also helped by Beric Dondarrion, a good, if undead, knight—who wants to sell her.

4. As stated above: Arya’s angry that Harwin failed his ideal. She doesn’t reject the ideal per se.

5. And by Jaquen, Red God devotee. Arya chooses his path, sort of. Not knights’ or Targs’.

B. Sansa chooses to trust a “knight”—but he’s not true. He’s with Bael-ish, the deceiver.

1. Sansa chooses to trust her knight “Florian”—because she saved him. But he’s no true knight, either. He’s working for Baelish—an even more venal version of Beric’s attempts to ransom Arya.

2. Unlike Arya, Sansa can’t run. She’s known. And Baelish has framed her for regicide.

3. Baelish renames her and uses her identity. After using a false knight to catch her.

C. The Wolf Maid knows Baelish isn’t really what she needs. She’s away from the Targ wannabes—but she’s not home.

1. Sansa, strengthened in the snow, accuses Baelish of “unchivalrously” not taking her home. He’s not acting with honor. So she throws her Winterfell at him. (Good girl!!!)

2. She sees comely singer Marillion as a threat. A knight—Lothor Brune—keeps her safe.

3. But Sansa knows Brune is loyal to Littlefinger—not necessarily to true knighthood.

D. The Wolf Maid knows what’s needed. In the novel where the needed hero is again named by Jaime—a fallen knight who still believes in the ideals he failed. And by Jon—a sworn brother who breaks his vows to keep them.

QUOTE: Summed up like that, his life seemed a rather scant and mingy thing. Ser Barristan could have recorded a few of his other tourney victories, at least. And Ser Gerold might have written a few more words about the deeds he'd performed when Ser Arthur Dayne broke the Kingswood Brotherhood. He had saved Lord Sumner's life as Big Belly Ben was about to smash his head in, though the outlaw had escaped him. And he'd held his own against the Smiling Knight, though it was Ser Arthur who slew him. What a fight that was, and what a foe. The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it.

The world was simpler in those days, Jaime thought, and men as well as swords were made of finer steel. Or was it only that he had been fifteen? They were all in their graves now, the Sword of the Morning and the Smiling Knight, the White Bull and Prince Lewyn, Ser Oswell Whent with his black humor, earnest Jon Darry, Simon Toyne and his Kingswood Brotherhood, bluff old Sumner Crakehall. And me, that boy I was . . . when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys's throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead. Storm, Jaime VIII

1. In Storm, Jaime’s reminded of how much he wanted to be a true knight like Arthur Dayne.

2. Jaime is reminded of this by Brienne—of Evenfall. The truest of knights.

3. Thoughts of Arthur Dayne and Brienne make Jaime long to be a better knight.

4. Jon, too, spends a lot of time thinking about what it means to keep his vows and protect.

5. Jon sees the Sword of the Morning and feels hope. The last one was Arthur. Only a worthy knight of House Dayne can hold the office (far as we know).

6. THUS: The “true knight” is hope. But Jaime and Jon struggle to figure out what that means.

E: Jon’s at the Wall. Can’t get to Sansa, though he does try to help Arya. Ned didn’t get to Lyanna until she was dying. Arya and Sansa both get some help from warriors. So, who helped Lyanna?

CONTINUED IN NEXT POST

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PART V: STORM: JAIME RE-EMBRACES KNIGHTHOOD: HELPS A WOLF MAID

A. Sansa echoes Lyanna. And Sansa needs help she’s not getting. So did Lyanna get help? From the knight Ned declares as the finest? The answer may lie in Jaime.

1. Jaime spends much of Storm thinking about Arthur Dayne’s perfect knighthood. He finally tells the story of Aerys’ death to Brienne. Jaime wants to be a better knight.

B. Jaime re-embraces Knighthood and rejects his sister’s and father’s desires.

1. He’s doing what Sansa has identified knights should do—keeping his oaths to protect women.

2. And he chooses his oath about Sansa OVER his family loyalty.

C. For all his cynicism, Jaime believes in knights. Like Sansa, Ned, and Bran.

QUOTE: He wondered what Ser Arthur Dayne would have to say of this lot. "How is it that the Kingsguard has fallen so low," most like. "It was my doing," I would have to answer. "I opened the door, and did nothing when the vermin began to crawl inside." Storm, Jaime VIII

1. Taking the Kingsguard in hand (bad pun), Jaime echoes Sansa’s ideals for true knights. And takes responsibility for worsening the Kingsguard.

2. But Jaime has some power to change things. And in his first meeting with the Kingsguard as their Lord Commander, he takes Sansa’s tormentors to task. Ordering them to NOT obey kingly orders that violate their oaths as knights.

QUOTE: "Ser Meryn." Jaime smiled at the sour knight with the rust-red hair and the pouches under his eyes. "I have heard it said that Joffrey made use of you to chastise Sansa Stark." He turned the White Book around one-handed. "Here, show me where it is in our vows that we swear to beat women and children."

"I did as His Grace commanded me. We are sworn to obey."

"Henceforth you will temper that obedience. My sister is Queen Regent. My father is the King's Hand. I am Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Obey us. None other." Storm, Jaime VIII

D. Jaime chooses to protect the defenseless, even though he thinks Sansa killed his son. He chooses Sansa and his oath to Catelyn over his father and Cersei:

QUOTE: "Why would you tell me all this, if it's true? You are betraying your father's secrets."

The Hand's secrets, he thought. I no longer have a father. "I pay my debts like every good little lion. I did promise Lady Stark her daughters . . . and one of them is still alive. My brother may know where she is, but if so he isn't saying. Cersei is convinced that Sansa helped him murder Joffrey." Storm, Jaime IX

E. He sends Brienne after Sansa to protect her. He defies his family and even his own belief in her guilt. Despite his cynicism, Jaime remembers what it means to be a knight. An ideal that trumps loyalty to a corrupt king or a Mad Queen.

QUOTE: Her face darkened. "I told you, I will never serve . . ."

". . . such foul creatures as us. Yes, I recall. Hear me out, Brienne. Both of us swore oaths concerning Sansa Stark. Cersei means to see that the girl is found and killed, wherever she has gone to ground . . ."

Brienne's homely face twisted in fury. "If you believe that I would harm my lady's daughter for a sword, you—"

"Just listen," he snapped, angered by her assumption. "I want you to find Sansa first, and get her somewhere safe. How else are the two of us going to make good our stupid vows to your precious dead Lady Catelyn?" Storm, Jaime IX

QUOTE: "You say Sansa killed him. Why protect her?"

Because Joff was no more to me than a squirt of seed in Cersei's cunt. And because he deserved to die. "I have made kings and unmade them. Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor." Jaime smiled thinly. "Besides, kingslayers should band together. Are you ever going to go?"

Her big hand wrapped tight around Oathkeeper. "I will. And I will find the girl and keep her safe. For her lady mother's sake. And for yours." She bowed stiffly, whirled, and went. Storm, Jaime IX

F. Thus, Jaime sends a true knight from Evenfall to protect Sansa the Stark maid. Chooses honor and an oath to an enemy over his sister, father, and death-deserving son. He believes in knighthood, despite all his failings.

1. Brienne echoes Arthur in her focus, honor, and faith. In her fighting ability. Even in her home: Evenfall. And the Tarth family legend of Galladon and the Just Maid.

2. Jaime sends Brienne because he believes, at least in part, in the ideal Sansa believes in: knights protect the weak. And knights keep their oaths.

3. He chooses this his oath over his family and their wishes. Because he knows his family is wrong—Joff deserved to die. Cersei is unreasonable. Tywin has disowned him.

4. We see him continue on this path through Storm and Feast.

PART VI: FEAST: JAIME AND RHAEGAR: FAMILY VS. HONOR

A. But if Jaime sends the true knight with an amazing sword after Sansa—who is he echoing? The answer’s in Feast, which shows just how Targaryen the Lannisters are.

1. Jaime spends a lot of time thinking about Arthur Dayne.

2. But he also echoes Rhaegar.

B. In Feast, we learn that Jaime echoed Rhaegar’s search for the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

1. Aerys sent Rhaegar to look for the Knight whom he thought was an enemy.

QUOTE: "No," said Meera. "That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his. But the next morning, when the heralds blew their trumpets and the king took his seat, only two champions appeared. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished. The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree. It was the dragon prince who won that tourney in the end." Storm, Bran II

2. Meera’s story in Storm tells us Aerys dispatched Rhaegar after the “storm lord” and others failed to unmask the knight. After a perceived insult from a suspected enemy.

3. Cersei sent Jaime after Arya after she defended Mycah (as Lyanna defended Howland). After the storm lord (Robert) fails her by not being a brute. And by getting really drunk.

4. Jaime knows that he would have hurt Arya-the-wolf-maid had he found her. And he despises himself for it:

QUOTE: Ned Stark's daughter had run off after her wolf savaged Joff, you'll recall. My sister wanted the girl to lose a hand. The old penalty, for striking one of the blood royal. Robert told her she was cruel and mad. They fought for half the night . . . well, Cersei fought, and Robert drank. Past midnight, the queen summoned me inside. The king was passed out snoring on the Myrish carpet. I asked my sister if she wanted me to carry him to bed. She told me I should carry her to bed, and shrugged out of her robe. I took her on Raymun Darry's bed after stepping over Robert. If His Grace had woken I would have killed him there and then. He would not have been the first king to die upon my sword . . . but you know that story, don't you?" He slashed at a tree branch, shearing it in half. "As I was fucking her, Cersei cried, 'I want.' I thought that she meant me, but it was the Stark girl that she wanted, maimed or dead." The things I do for love. "It was only by chance that Stark's own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first . . ."

The pockmarks on Ser Ilyn's face were black holes in the torchlight, as dark as Jaime's soul. He made that clacking sound. Feast, Jaime IV

C. Also in Feast, Jaime echoes Rhaegar’s attempts to fix ruling problems in King’s Landing.

1. Rhaegar tells Jaime he will change things when he gets back from the Riverlands (oops).

QUOTE: Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."

Jaime's anger had risen up in his throat. "I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard."

"Then guard the king," Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. "When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey."

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

Those were the last words Rhaegar Targaryen ever spoke to him. Outside the gates an army had assembled, whilst another descended on the Trident. So the Prince of Dragonstone mounted up and donned his tall black helm, and rode forth to his doom. Feast, Jaime I.

2. Rhaegar intended to make changes involving his father. But he was still managing his father—leaving Jaime in place to keep Aerys steady until Rhaegar could fix things.

3. In Feast, Jaime in the Riverlands thinks of how he must make changes—get Cersei out of the way so he can help Tommen rule properly. Though, like Rhaegar’s plan, this seems doomed.

QUOTE: And he had done his own part here at Riverrun without actually ever taking up arms against the Starks or Tullys. Once he found the Blackfish, he would be free to return to King's Landing, where he belonged. My place is with my king. With my son. Would Tommen want to know that? The truth could cost the boy his throne. Would you sooner have a father or a chair, lad? Jaime wished he knew the answer. He does like stamping papers with his seal. The boy might not even believe him, to be sure. Cersei would say it was a lie. My sweet sister, the deceiver. He would need to find some way to winkle Tommen from her clutches before the boy became another Joffrey. And whilst at that, he should find the lad a new small council too. If Cersei can be put aside, Ser Kevan may agree to serve as Tommen's Hand. And if not, well, the Seven Kingdoms did not lack for able men. Forley Prester would make a good choice, or Roland Crakehall. If someone other than a westerman was needed to appease the Tyrells, there was always Mathis Rowan . . . or even Petyr Baelish. Littlefinger was as amiable as he was clever, but too lowborn to threaten any of the great lords, with no swords of his own. The perfect Hand. Feast, Jaime VII

D. As Jaime echoes Rhaegar in Feast, Cersei echoes Aerys—a problem Jaime must deal with.

1. Cersei echoes the Mad King with her wildfire obsession, obsession with a fortune teller, and petty spite against “enemies.” And in alienation from her family. Plus, people know about her children.

2. And Jaime knows that Cersei as Mad Queen is a problem.

QUOTE: Jaime ignored that. "If these flames spread beyond the tower, you may end up burning down the castle whether you mean to or not. Wildfire is treacherous."

"Lord Hallyne has assured me that his pyromancers can control the fire." The Guild of Alchemists had been brewing fresh wildfire for a fortnight. "Let all of King's Landing see the flames. It will be a lesson to our enemies."

"Now you sound like Aerys."

Her nostrils flared. "Guard your tongue, ser."

"I love you too, sweet sister."

How could I ever have loved that wretched creature? she wondered after he had gone. He was your twin, your shadow, your other half, another voice whispered. Once, perhaps, she thought. No longer. He has become a stranger to me. Feast, Cersei III

QUOTE: The queen could feel the heat of those green flames. The pyromancers said that only three things burned hotter than their substance: dragonflame, the fires beneath the earth, and the summer sun. Some of the ladies gasped when the first flames appeared in the windows, licking up the outer walls like long green tongues. Others cheered, and made toasts.

It is beautiful, she thought, as beautiful as Joffrey, when they laid him in my arms. No man had ever made her feel as good as she had felt when he took her nipple in his mouth to nurse. Feast, Cersei III

QUOTE: "No need." Cersei felt too alive for sleep. The wildfire was cleansing her, burning away all her rage and fear, filling her with resolve. "The flames are so pretty. I want to watch them for a while." Feast, Cersei III

3. Thus, in Feast, Cersei echoes Aerys. Jaime echoes Rhaegar.

4. Jaime echoes Rhaegar’s well-intended plan—trying to fix family problems and maintain the realm. Setting aside the Mad Queen and establishing a healthy rule.

E. Jaime, who echoes Rhaegar twice so far (once before sending Brienne and once after), sends a true knight from Evenfall to protect the Stark maid. Jaime hasn’t abandoned his entire family. He’s working to save Tommen’s kingdom. But Jaime chooses honor, chivalry, and an oath over his Mad Queen’s demands.

1. Jaime, earlier echoing a dark version of Rhaegar (chasing Arya), now protects a family foe.

2. He does this because of Brienne and Arthur—true knights. Brienne—who saved him in his dream—saved him due to her stubborn resolve to keep her vow. Saving Jaime even from his past failures by being a better knight herself.

QUOTE: Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

"You don't frighten me," he called, turning as they split to either side of him. He did not know which way to face. "I will fight you one by one or all together. But who is there for the wench to duel? She gets cross when you leave her out."

"I swore an oath to keep him safe," she said to Rhaegar's shade. "I swore a holy oath."

"We all swore oaths," said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly. Storm, Jaime VI

3. Brienne’s true knighthood saves Jaime from himself.

4. Jaime sends Brienne with Oathkeeper, the sword forged from Ice. And Ice was a stand-in for a more ancient blade. (There’s a good argument to be made that original blade was Dawn.)

5. Jaime believes in knightly ideals. As do Arthur and Brienne.

6. And he believes in working for a better rule. As did Rhaegar. 

CONTINUED IN JUST ONE MORE POST

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PART VII: SPECULATION ON THE ECHOES

A. Problem: Sansa is re-stolen by Baelish before Brienne can help her.

1. But Baelish was likely not a factor during Lyanna’s disappearance. He’d been sent to the Fingers.

2. There were plotters in the mix around Lyanna’s time (Varys, Tywin, Pycelle).

3. But if Arthur was what everyone says, if Jaime’s hero really was better than he—might not Arthur have gotten Lyanna to safety vs. just chasing her with a sword that’s only part of an echo of Dawn?

4. Perhaps with help from Rhaegar, the Mad King’s family member who believed in honor?

B. SUMMING UP

1. Sansa and Arya clearly echo Lyanna from Game onward.

2. The death of Lady echoes Lyanna’s death—and Lyanna’s death “begins” with a defense of an innocent boy and Targaryen-like spite against the Starks.

3. BOTH Sansa and Arya reject the Targaryen-like Lannisters. So, who did Lyanna trust?

4. Both Sansa and Arya are helped by sworn brothers. But their helpers are flawed and limited.

5. Jaime, who echoes Rhaegar, gets Sansa help. He’s rather late. But he still sends a true, honor bound knight to protect a Wolf Maid that his Mad Queen (and he himself) sees as an enemy.

6. Jaime sends Brienne with Oathkeeper, part of the sword that could have been the stand-in for Dawn.

7. We don’t yet know how this ends. But we have the echoes. Martin didn’t put them throughout the books by accident.

8. And the point seems to be not that there are no true knights, but that those who believe in the ideals of knighthood must embrace and defend them. As Brienne does. As Jaime is trying to do—because that’s what Arthur taught him. As Jon is doing at the Wall—figuring out what his oaths to protect really mean.

9. And, if the echoes hold: sounds like Rhaegar might have helped Arthur get Lyanna away from Aerys.

APPENDIX: Why focus more on Sansa than Arya?

A. If we want to know who Lyanna was attracted to, look at Sansa.

1. Lyanna very likely had a child, a child whose birth very likely contributed to her death.

2. So far, it’s the older Sansa, not little Arya, who sexualizes men.

3. Arya’s still in the “punch him in the arm and call him stupid” phase of crushes.

4. And, in Storm, Sansa is not sexualizing Targs or their wannabes. She’s sexualizing the Hound—a fighter and former Kingsguard. Remembering a kiss that never happened.

5. Sansa’s not remotely attracted to “comely” singer Marillion. He’s purely an annoyance and a threat.

6. And just in case we’d forgotten Sansa is echoing Lyanna’s plot points, Martin draws a big, singing, rose referenced circle around her while she’s dressed in blue:

QUOTE: Bring me? She did not like the sound of that. "Are you a guardsman now?" Littlefinger had dismissed the Eyrie's captain of guards and put Ser Lothor Brune in his place.

"Do you require guarding?" Marillion said lightly. "I am composing a new song, you should know. A song so sweet and sad it will melt even your frozen heart. 'The Roadside Rose,' I mean to call it. About a baseborn girl so beautiful she bewitched every man who laid eyes upon her."

I am a Stark of Winterfell, she longed to tell him. Instead she nodded, and let him escort her down the tower steps and along a bridge. The High Hall had been closed as long as she'd been at the Eyrie. Sansa wondered why her aunt had opened it. Normally she preferred the comfort of her solar, or the cozy warmth of Lord Arryn's audience chamber with its view of the waterfall. Storm, Sansa VII

B. Why not focus on Arya’s escape vs. Sansa’s? We can do both—since both girls deal with the Hound and both see Beric as a potential helper. Arya is saved by a sworn brother of the Watch and a former sworn brother of the Kingsguard.

1. And Arya has plenty of disappointments from those who swore oaths and made promises—Hullen, Harwin, etc.

2. BUT Arya’s rejected the whole thing in favor of a death cult.

3. She’s out of the country completely.

4. Now, perhaps this is where Lyanna went, too.

5. But given that Lyanna VERY likely had a child, Sansa is the one to keep an eye on.

6. And Sansa’s interest is still in true knights and sworn brothers. And memories of the Hound.

7. And she is currently being sought by a true knight, wanting to protect her. At the behest and with help from a fallen knight, who is striving for new honor.[/spoiler]

THE END.

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@Slywren, Just read through everything quickly and wanted to say nice job! You know that I agree that Sansa echoes Lyanna in many places.  Nice catch on the comparison of Jaime to Rhaegar.  I hadn't picked up on that but it definitely feels right. At the very least you've picked up on the broad strokes of it.  I also agree that there are points in the story that Brienne and Sandor Clegane most likely echo Arthur Dayne.  I would feel much better about it if we could find a closer textual link. (Like the Sansa Roadside Rose quote) I would bet that it's there somewhere, it's just finding the right thing.  My brain is starting to turn off for the night, so I might have to come back and reread before I have anything else that might be worth saying.  Congrats on another great post!

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@Slywren, Just read through everything quickly and wanted to say nice job! You know that I agree that Sansa echoes Lyanna in many places.

:cheers: Thanks for the kind words--and for reading this big, long, thing that I had to get out of my head.

 Nice catch on the comparison of Jaime to Rhaegar.  I hadn't picked up on that but it definitely feels right. At the very least you've picked up on the broad strokes of it.

Yes--on Jaime and Rhaegar--I only found that while looking for something else. But Martin isn't subtle in Feast re: Cersei's wanting to be a Targ and her echoes of the Mad King. Given that in the same book we hear about Jaime's similar actions to Rhaegar--I can't see any other way to read his echoes. . . 

And "broad strokes" is a good word. It's one of the reasons I wrote this down--seems like there's more to find/see. Or, at least, more to come (hopefully--we need a "crossed fingers" emoji).

 I also agree that there are points in the story that Brienne and Sandor Clegane most likely echo Arthur Dayne.  I would feel much better about it if we could find a closer textual link. (Like the Sansa Roadside Rose quote) I would bet that it's there somewhere, it's just finding the right thing.  

HA!!! I actually took out the part that I think makes a specific-ish link between Arthur and Brienne because this thing had gotten so beastly long.

In Storm, when looking at the White Book and thinking about his own past, Jaime thinks of Arthur Daynes' fight with the Smiling Knight.

QUOTE: Summed up like that, his life seemed a rather scant and mingy thing. Ser Barristan could have recorded a few of his other tourney victories, at least. And Ser Gerold might have written a few more words about the deeds he'd performed when Ser Arthur Dayne broke the Kingswood Brotherhood. He had saved Lord Sumner's life as Big Belly Ben was about to smash his head in, though the outlaw had escaped him. And he'd held his own against the Smiling Knight, though it was Ser Arthur who slew him. What a fight that was, and what a foe. The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it.

The world was simpler in those days, Jaime thought, and men as well as swords were made of finer steel. Or was it only that he had been fifteen? They were all in their graves now, the Sword of the Morning and the Smiling Knight, the White Bull and Prince Lewyn, Ser Oswell Whent with his black humor, earnest Jon Darry, Simon Toyne and his Kingswood Brotherhood, bluff old Sumner Crakehall. And me, that boy I was . . . when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys's throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead. Storm, Jaime VIII

The tie in to Brienne came earlier, in Jaime's fight with her while he's chained:

QUOTE: "Give me the sword, Kingslayer."

"Oh, I will." He sprang to his feet and drove at her, the longsword alive in his hands. Brienne jumped back, parrying, but he followed, pressing the attack. No sooner did she turn one cut than the next was upon her. The swords kissed and sprang apart and kissed again. Jaime's blood was singing. This was what he was meant for; he never felt so alive as when he was fighting, with death balanced on every stroke. And with my wrists chained together, the wench may even give me a contest for a time. His chains forced him to use a two-handed grip, though of course the weight and reach were less than if the blade had been a true two-handed greatsword, but what did it matter? His cousin's sword was long enough to write an end to this Brienne of Tarth. Storm, Jaime III.

Here, Brienne's giving the line that sounds more like the Smiling Knight. Jaime's thinking he can beat Brienne, even without a greatsword (like Dawn). 

But Jaime's got the casting wrong--Brienne's the noble winner, not him. She's Dayne and he's the losing Smiling Knight.

QUOTE: She is stronger than I am.

The realization chilled him. Robert had been stronger than him, to be sure. The White Bull Gerold Hightower as well, in his heyday, and Ser Arthur Dayne. Amongst the living, Greatjon Umber was stronger, Strongboar of Crakehall most likely, both Cleganes for a certainty. The Mountain's strength was like nothing human. It did not matter. With speed and skill, Jaime could beat them all. But this was a woman. A huge cow of a woman, to be sure, but even so . . . by rights, she should be the one wearing down. Storm, Jaime III

Not only is Brienne defeating him. She's the noble one: 

QUOTE: Jaime drove his shoulder into her legs, bringing her down on top of him. They rolled, kicking and punching until finally she was sitting astride him. He managed to jerk her dagger from its sheath, but before he could plunge it into her belly she caught his wrist and slammed his hands back on a rock so hard he thought she'd wrenched an arm from its socket. Her other hand spread across his face. "Yield!" She shoved his head down, held it under, pulled it up. "Yield!" Jaime spit water into her face. A shove, a splash, and he was under again, kicking uselessly, fighting to breathe. Up again. "Yield, or I'll drown you!"

"And break your oath?" he snarled. "Like me?"

She let him go, and he went down with a splash.

And the woods rang with coarse laughter. Storm, Jaime III

Brienne remembers her oath. As Jaime said of the Smiling Knight: "a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled together. That's what Jaime's become. Brienne is the one who refuses to kill Jaime despite all her contempt for him. Won't give in, but insists on doing what she thinks is right. 

There's also her idealization of the Tarth Family Legend, Galladon of Morne and his sword given for love and valor--the Just Maid. How Galladon only drew the sword against equal foes--not too far from Arthur's letting the Smiling Knight get another sword. The fact that in Jaime's dream, she defends him against even Rhaegar and Arthur. How she keeps her oaths. 

Brienne isn't a perfect copy of Arthur, but I think there's a really good case to be made that she's echoing him.

My brain is starting to turn off for the night, so I might have to come back and reread before I have anything else that might be worth saying.  Congrats on another great post!

Hope you slept well, friend. :cheers:

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So that's actually what I'm having problems with, Sly Wren. I don't see the Rhaegar - Jamie parallels, nor the Brienne - Arthur Parallels. Sansa as Lyanna - SOMETIMES - absolutely. But not everything Sansa does refers to Lyanna, and I don't think Sansa "needs" a true knight. That's an illusion, IMO, and Sansa is headed for her own agency, not a hero or rescuer. But that's just my general opinion, not based on a specific text or anything. I also see the Cersei / Aerys parallels - certainly. But the Jaime - Rhaegar parallels? I don't see it. Jaime is caught between the Smiling Knight and Arthur Dayne echoes, and although it doesn't preclude other echoes, the scenes you're citing actually reinforce Jamie as Arthur, not Jamie as Rhaegar or Brienne as Arthur. 

I don't want to be a poopy pants or anything but I am just not seeing the picture you're trying to paint. Brienne is sent out to find Sansa, yes, and with a magic sword, sure, but she never finds Sansa, she's doesn't protect her, she doesn't fight a duel to protect her... Brienne isn't even a knight, while Arthur Dayne is the finest knight anyone knows of. That's why many see the Brienne - Dunk parallels, which seems much more clearly drawn by the author. 

And at the end of the day, the conclusion you're trying to draw is that Rhaegar sent Arthur Dayne to find or protect Lyanna, right? Well, we already know Arthur Dayne was protecting or guarding Lyanna, at the Tower of Joy, so I guess I don't really see what the revelation is here. None of this gives any hints that someone other than Rhaegar was the one to impregnate Lyanna - am I missing something? 

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So that's actually what I'm having problems with, Sly Wren. I don't see the Rhaegar - Jamie parallels, nor the Brienne - Arthur Parallels. Sansa as Lyanna - SOMETIMES - absolutely. But not everything Sansa does refers to Lyanna, and I don't think Sansa "needs" a true knight. That's an illusion, IMO, and Sansa is headed for her own agency, not a hero or rescuer. But that's just my general opinion, not based on a specific text or anything. I also see the Cersei / Aerys parallels - certainly. But the Jaime - Rhaegar parallels? I don't see it. Jaime is caught between the Smiling Knight and Arthur Dayne echoes, and although it doesn't preclude other echoes, the scenes you're citing actually reinforce Jamie as Arthur, not Jamie as Rhaegar or Brienne as Arthur. 

1. Not trying to argue parallels so much as echoes. Martin never runs parallels straight. But we've seen him echo the known part in characters who don't completely "parallel" or "match" those who came before them: Mel and the Night's Queen. Stannous and the Night's King. Jon and the Night's King. Ned and Rickard (going south). Robb's Rebellion and Robert's. We're supposedly getting another Dance of the Dragons. 

None of these run straight. But looking at where things show up again and how they change--tells us something.

For the massive gaps in the Lyanna-Rhaegar story between Harrenhal, being "fallen upon" in the Riverlands, and death in a bed of blood--in those massive gaps, I really think Martin is giving us info via the characters we know are echoing Rhaegar and Lyanna. Who are doing things we KNOW Rhaegar and Lyanna did. Or who are tied to specific plot elements.

2. That's where Sansa's such a good fit with Lyanna. Not in psyche--at least not as much as Arya--but in plot and needs. As a reader, I look to Arya for info on Lyanna. Which is workable. But Martin's made it REALLY clear that Sansa's echoing the plot of Lyanna. And I ignored it on my first read--looking to Arya. But if we read the plot echoes--Sansa fits. And that's why we should look to her.

And Sansa, like Arya, NEEDS help. They CANNOT do this on their own, even as they become more independent-minded. And we have no reason to believe Lyanna could have been the Wonder Woman of Westeros, for all of her independent qualities. No one in the books pull that off.

3. On Rhaegar and Jaime: I agree that psyche-wise, Jaime's pegged himself re: being stuck between the smiling knight and Dayne.

But he's missed his Targ connection. Like Cersei misses how she's echoing Aerys. Jaime DID search for the Mad Queen's supposed enemy after Arya defended Mycah. And Jaime IS contemplating a similar move against the Queen Regent as Rhaegar was against his Mad King Father. And Jaime is struggling with knowing that his family is corrupt. He thinks Joff (another Mad King echo) deserved to die. 

Jaime doesn't equal Rhaegar, but he does echo Rhaegar.

That echo is key: what does it tell us about what Rhaegar and Lyanna were doing? And Jaime protects Sansa from his Mad family. 

I don't want to be a poopy pants or anything but I am just not seeing the picture you're trying to paint. Brienne is sent out to find Sansa, yes, and with a magic sword, sure, but she never finds Sansa, she's doesn't protect her, she doesn't fight a duel to protect her... Brienne isn't even a knight, while Arthur Dayne is the finest knight anyone knows of. That's why many see the Brienne - Dunk parallels, which seems much more clearly drawn by the author. 

No poopy-offense taken.:D Or any other kind of offense. I wrote this really fast. My main point is the echoes--and, that once we recognize them, Martin's actually giving us info re: what happened. Vs. just making us guess.

Agreed that Brienne isn't echoing Arthur's fabulosity at fighting. She doesn't have Dawn. And Martin himself has said that Dawn makes a difference in Arthur's fighting ability. And I agree with the parallels with Dunk.

It's the true knight--the integrity to the oath that's the Arthur tie. That's who helps Arya--Yoren (sworn black brother), Beric (a good, if undead, knight, trying to protect people) and even the Hound.

And that's who Sansa knows she needs. That's what made Arthur fabulous--not just the fighting. But "blood is the seal of our devotion" he says to Jaime. The fact that Arthur took care of the small folk and made sure they got what they needed. The protecting of the weak. That's what Brienne reminds Jaime of.

And at the end of the day, the conclusion you're trying to draw is that Rhaegar sent Arthur Dayne to find or protect Lyanna, right? Well, we already know Arthur Dayne was protecting or guarding Lyanna, at the Tower of Joy, so I guess I don't really see what the revelation is here. None of this gives any hints that someone other than Rhaegar was the one to impregnate Lyanna - am I missing something? 

No--I think Arthur (and perhaps Rhaegar) got Lyanna out. Saved her from Aerys--and whatever other political plots there were. And, if the echo holds, Rhaegar might have sent Lyanna with Arthur.

As for the tower of joy--the Sansa echo gives us that, too. Baelish takes Sansa to an unnamed tower. He jokingly calls it the Drearfort. They are only there for a short time, while they get the story straight. And die her hair. Only a close family member knows the real story. Then they all go to the Eyrie--with its white stone towers from which a woman will soon fall to her death (Ashara and the Palestone Sword, anyone?). For Lyanna's echoes--Sansa and Arya--the protection is NOT hiding in a lonely tower in the middle of nowhere. It's disguise.

And Sansa's in the Eyrie, the only place other than Winterfell and Starfall where a woman is flung to her death. And the only other castle (save Whitewalls--which is torn down) described with white stone towers. Like the Palestine Sword.

Once we recognize the echo Martin gives us re: Lyanna in Game and reiterates throughout the novels--especially in Storm--the Sansa echo really seems to be telling us where Lyanna was. And she wasn't staying in the tower.

If the echoes hold, she was with Arthur in Starfall. That's Rhaegar's role--saving the Stark Maid from his Bael-like father. And using the One True Knight to do it.

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1. Not trying to argue parallels so much as echoes. Martin never runs parallels straight. But we've seen him echo the known part in characters who don't completely "parallel" or "match" those who came before them: Mel and the Night's Queen. Stannous and the Night's King. Jon and the Night's King. Ned and Rickard (going south). Robb's Rebellion and Robert's. We're supposedly getting another Dance of the Dragons. 

None of these run straight. But looking at where things show up again and how they change--tells us something.

For the massive gaps in the Lyanna-Rhaegar story between Harrenhal, being "fallen upon" in the Riverlands, and death in a bed of blood--in those massive gaps, I really think Martin is giving us info via the characters we know are echoing Rhaegar and Lyanna. Who are doing things we KNOW Rhaegar and Lyanna did. Or who are tied to specific plot elements.

2. That's where Sansa's such a good fit with Lyanna. Not in psyche--at least not as much as Arya--but in plot and needs. As a reader, I look to Arya for info on Lyanna. Which is workable. But Martin's made it REALLY clear that Sansa's echoing the plot of Lyanna. And I ignored it on my first read--looking to Arya. But if we read the plot echoes--Sansa fits. And that's why we should look to her.

And Sansa, like Arya, NEEDS help. They CANNOT do this on their own, even as they become more independent-minded. And we have no reason to believe Lyanna could have been the Wonder Woman of Westeros, for all of her independent qualities. No one in the books pull that off.

3. On Rhaegar and Jaime: I agree that psyche-wise, Jaime's pegged himself re: being stuck between the smiling knight and Dayne.

But he's missed his Targ connection. Like Cersei misses how she's echoing Aerys. Jaime DID search for the Mad Queen's supposed enemy after Arya defended Mycah. And Jaime IS contemplating a similar move against the Queen Regent as Rhaegar was against his Mad King Father. And Jaime is struggling with knowing that his family is corrupt. He thinks Joff (another Mad King echo) deserved to die. 

Jaime doesn't equal Rhaegar, but he does echo Rhaegar.

That echo is key: what does it tell us about what Rhaegar and Lyanna were doing? And Jaime protects Sansa from his Mad family. 

Agreed that Brienne isn't echoing Arthur's fabulosity at fighting. She doesn't have Dawn. And Martin himself has said that Dawn makes a difference in Arthur's fighting ability. And I agree with the parallels with Dunk.

It's the true knight--the integrity to the oath that's the Arthur tie. That's who helps Arya--Yoren (sworn black brother), Beric (a good, if undead, knight, trying to protect people) and even the Hound.

And that's who Sansa knows she needs. That's what made Arthur fabulous--not just the fighting. But "blood is the seal of our devotion" he says to Jaime. The fact that Arthur took care of the small folk and made sure they got what they needed. The protecting of the weak. That's what Brienne reminds Jaime of.

No--I think Arthur (and perhaps Rhaegar) got Lyanna out. Saved her from Aerys--and whatever other political plots there were. And, if the echo holds, Rhaegar might have sent Lyanna with Arthur.

As for the tower of joy--the Sansa echo gives us that, too. Baelish takes Sansa to an unnamed tower. He jokingly calls it the Drearfort. They are only there for a short time, while they get the story straight. And die her hair. Only a close family member knows the real story. Then they all go to the Eyrie--with its white stone towers from which a woman will soon fall to her death (Ashara and the Palestone Sword, anyone?). For Lyanna's echoes--Sansa and Arya--the protection is NOT hiding in a lonely tower in the middle of nowhere. It's disguise.

And Sansa's in the Eyrie, the only place other than Winterfell and Starfall where a woman is flung to her death. And the only other castle (save Whitewalls--which is torn down) described with white stone towers. Like the Palestine Sword.

Once we recognize the echo Martin gives us re: Lyanna in Game and reiterates throughout the novels--especially in Storm--the Sansa echo really seems to be telling us where Lyanna was. And she wasn't staying in the tower.

If the echoes hold, she was with Arthur in Starfall. That's Rhaegar's role--saving the Stark Maid from his Bael-like father. And using the One True Knight to do it.

..but Arthur Dayne wasn't at Starfall, he was at the Tower of Joy. And Aerys does not parallel Bael.. where did you get that? Bael is a musician who steals women, with the women potentially falling in love with Bael, who impregnates a Stark and eventually become a king. That's Rhaegar, a musician who steals (and probably impregnates) a Stark maid, and is line to become king. What does Aerys have in common with Bael, and how do you set aside the clear Barl - Rhaegar parallels?

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..but Arthur Dayne wasn't at Starfall, he was at the Tower of Joy.

Arthur's at the tower when Ned and co. get there. Where was he before that? Text doesn't say. But text repeatedly tells us people echo each other's actions and history repeats. And I really think, based on all of the above, that Jaime and Brienne are echoing Rhaegar and Arthur. 

And Aerys does not parallel Bael.. where did you get that? Bael is a musician who steals women, with the women potentially falling in love with Bael, who impregnates a Stark and eventually become a king. That's Rhaegar, a musician who steals (and probably impregnates) a Stark maid, and is line to become king. What does Aerys have in common with Bael, and how do you set aside the clear Barl - Rhaegar parallels?

Well, that's here in my Bael thread.

Nutshell: when you look at the context in which the Bael Tale is told, what elements Ygritte stresses vs. what she disclaims, and how the echo of Bael is used in the novels (IE: Baelish and Mance come up BEFORE we ever hear about Bael--the context is established first)--Bael's Tale is about a raider and a sneak and future king sticking it to an enemy. The Stark maid is barely mentioned in the tale, especially compared to Bael and his grudge. Her "love" is the one part of the tale Ygritte slaps a disclaimer on. His singing is just how he is able to trick Brandon the Daughterless. The focus is on his being a raider and future king--sticking it to an enemy.

Whereas in the Knight of the Laughing Tree--Aerys is the king who was wroth against an enemy over a perceived slight. And we know that at Harrenhal, he "steals" Jaime to spite Tywin--a perceived enemy. A fact Jaime himself recognizes.

Given all of that--Rhaegar seems more in line with the singers in the novels vs. the 4 named bards who are all schemers--Bael, Mance as Abel, Denzo D'han--or USED by schemers--the Blue Bard. There are lots of singers in the novels--that's not uncommon. But the scheming Bael figure who sticks it to enemies via stealing a child, an action that ends in kinslaying disaster--that's much less common. And doesn't fit Rhaegar as well as it fits Aerys. 

But Rhaegar is the reformer and son trying to manage the father. And we do see/ hear of Jaime echoing Rhaegar himself. That echo is not just a tale. But the more recent past. Same with Brienne. 

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Womderful thread and I agree with most of your thread points.

For me there is no question that Sansa is "younger, more beautiful" queen and Jaime is "valongar" of Maggy the Frog prophecy. No one else makes sense story-wise.

The evidences you have collected here give me more fuel to my own crackpot idea (I will open new thread on it soon):

At the end of the series Sansa will be brought back to King's Landing and answer before Cersei for Joffrey's murder.

I will go into greater detail about this, but essentially, there is going to be Trial by Seven, seven vs seven combat representing Sansa and Cersei.

I think Maegor's Trial by Seven will parallel the result of this trial. Ashford tournament's trial by seven tells us about the contestants.

Not going into too much detail (because it will take me 2-3 pages to prove my point), but from Ashford parallel Sansa's champions will include: Jaime, Brienne, Sandor, Podrick, Arya, Loras Tyrell and Bronn. Cersei's champions: Robert Strong, Ilyn Payne, 3 Kettleblack brothers, Meryn Trant and Boros Blount.

Sandor and Jaime in particular will be the ones to save Stark girls from Cersei's monster UnGregor like it was foreshadowed in Bran's AGOT dream.

Eventually, Cersei witnessing Sansa's victory and Jaime's betrayal will finally understand Maggy the Frog's prophecy (this will be the time where all her three children are dead, hence "when tears have drowned you") about "the queen" and "valongar", so she will order the alchemist guild to burn down the city with wildfire. Jaime will try to stop Aerys 2.0, but will fail and die together with Cersei (she will stab him by his own blade while getting choked).

Maegor's Trial by Seven for me foreshadows that only one participant will survive: Arya. She and Sansa will flee the burning capital, which is under the siege during the second Hour of the Wolf (Jon is outside).

That might be a little crackpotish, so I am planning to open a new thread.

Sly Wren, as always great work! I love  the part about Jaime paralelling Rhaegar, never looked at it from this angle.

Also, I do agree that Jaime is destined to do something awesome for Sansa and keep his vow of protecting her. In fact, I think Jaime along with Sandor will save both Arya and Sansa from UnGregor as described above. However, Sandor will be fatally wounded (and die for real this time, probably having an awesome goodbye with Stark sisters), while Jaime goes to confront Cersei and end her once and for all. 

While Jaime stopped wildfire plot killing the king first time and was antagonized, I think second time around with Cersei he will fail but will be lauded as a hero, a true knight, thanks to two Stark girls who were there when it happened.

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I agree the Sansa/Lyanna parallels are pretty compelling. Though I think it's textually pretty firm that Arthur and Lyanna both died at the Tower of Joy. However that doesn't preclude Lyanna having been at Starfall before that...maybe hiding there in disguise until she needed to hide her pregnancy? Or it may have simply been the plan to take her to Starfall after giving birth; so she was meant to go to the pale tower but never made it. I think that's actually quite likely; they may have been planning for Ashara to pass the baby off as her own while a disguised Lyanna posed as a nursemaid. (Nine months is a long time to sit around stewing about what to with your baby; Lyanna's contingency plans probably had contingency plans. What to do if the baby is fair/dark/mixed, what to do if RR succeeds/fails, what if Rhaegar or Lyanna live/die/are bedridden. What if prince Viserys escapes/doesn't escape, and on and on. Plan A - Plan ZZ, with Starfall figuring prominently in most of them.) Actually, regardless of what happened, Starfall was almost definitely their next destination, as a (relatively) close, Targ-friendly place with it's own port--plus it's Arthur Dayne's home, so. Makes sense.

 

Anyway...my only other thing to add is that I agree with your idea of echoes, and with the Brienne/Arthur Dayne/Jaime echoes. I would say the echoes go even farther back, though, to the Dawn age. Brienne, Arthur Dayne, and Jaime all echo what I've constructed of Symeon Star Eyes, whom I believe was a "true knight" aligned with sapphires and ice magic, recast by Rhllorians as the Great Other since he opposed Azor Ahai/the Bloodstone Emperor. Their main beef being BSE's murder of the Amethyst Empress, who was the sapphire knight's beloved.

Dany has gotten a good bit of attention as a strong echo of the Amethyst Empress, but I think Sansa plays the AE roll as well, not least because of her framing as the lover/beloved of sapphire knights. (Or at least sapphire "knights".) Joffrey and Loras both wear sapphires and make gestures of courting Sansa during the Hand's Tourney. Later, Brienne, true "knight" of the Sapphire Isle, seeks after Sansa to protect her. This is especially interesting to me since Cercei, during the seige of KL, mockingly says that Symeon Star Eyes will likely be along to save Sansa at any  minute. (She also mentions the Dragon Knight, who's also an echo of SSE, IMO.)

In a lot of ways I see the sapphire knight of the Dawn Age as a sort of Ground Zero for the ripples and echoes about true knights. Arthur Dayne and all the Swords of the Morning echo him, Brienne echos strongly (very strongly to me since IMO Ser Galadon was an another alias of this sapphire knight, AE being the maid who lost her heart to him and gave him a magic sword--half of the ancestral Dawn of the Great Empire of the Dawn). Jaime also echoes him, in more than one way since I also think SK & AE were twins. Jon Snow echoes him too--explicitly echoing SSE with his eye injury from the eagle.

I haven't given a lot of thought to sapphire knight/Sandor Clegane, however Sandor's extreme aversion to fire makes a neat hook to connect him to a figure of ice magic. And he, too, has a very significant relationship with Sansa, an AE echo. Sandor's bitter rivalry with his brother could also echo SSE/BSE conflict.

Anyway, I think an important aspect of the True Knight as constructed by Martin is that they are inherently compromised in some way. The ASOIAF True Knight archetype, the sapphire knight, was I believe the lover of his sister, and perhaps later consumed with avenging her. All the true knights that you mention are also deeply compromised; even Brienne has now lied to Jaime and is likely on her way to becoming even more gray. It's not even due to an error or failing in most cases; life simply throws them into no-win situations and they have to make a choice. 

I guess that's basically what you were saying about the Stark girls needing to understand both the ideal and the reality of true knights.

 

(Sorry if this is way off topic of what you wanted to talk about.)

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To continue the allusions to the other two characters you were discussing, Lyanna and Rhaegar:

When discussing modern analogs of 1st Long Night figures, Rhaegar is most often compared to the Bloodstone Emperor and/or Azor Ahai. But in his relationship with Lyanna I see him framed as the sapphire knight, SSE. The blue roses are most often seen as a symbol of Lyanna, but I think it's important to note that Lyanna does not get herself blue roses, they are a gift from her lover/beloved (or at least her admiring knight depending on when we're talking about.) I think the SSE is the originator of the blue rose symbolism; that he gave the AE a blue rose, or a sapphire rose, or a rose made of blue ice, as a symbol of their love. This set the ASOIAF archetype for the warrior/maid chivalric romance. (A subtle but huge nod to the warrior/maid relationship is seen when Melisandre burns the 7 on Dragonstone and the warrior falls "athwart" the maid.) Usually it's a red rose, as fire magic has become dominant in the world rather than ice magic, but with Lyanna & Rhaegar the echo is particularly strong so we get the original blue rose. (Sansa *almost* gets a blue rose; she gets a red rose from a knight wearing sapphires and blue flowers. It will be interesting to see what her eventual true knight gives her.)

Like the Amethyst Empress, Lyanna is betrayed by her own blood---but very literally in L's case; her own actual blood betrays her by not staying put and fighting infection as it should. Her lover is not only killed but his name blackened in history by his rival, as SSE became re-framed as the Great Other by followers of Azor Ahai.

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Womderful thread and I agree with most of your thread points.

For me there is no question that Sansa is "younger, more beautiful" queen and Jaime is "valongar" of Maggy the Frog prophecy. No one else makes sense story-wise.

The evidences you have collected here give me more fuel to my own crackpot idea (I will open new thread on it soon):

At the end of the series Sansa will be brought back to King's Landing and answer before Cersei for Joffrey's murder.

I will go into greater detail about this, but essentially, there is going to be Trial by Seven, seven vs seven combat representing Sansa and Cersei.

I think Maegor's Trial by Seven will parallel the result of this trial. Ashford tournament's trial by seven tells us about the contestants.

Not going into too much detail (because it will take me 2-3 pages to prove my point), but from Ashford parallel Sansa's champions will include: Jaime, Brienne, Sandor, Podrick, Arya, Loras Tyrell and Bronn. Cersei's champions: Robert Strong, Ilyn Payne, 3 Kettleblack brothers, Meryn Trant and Boros Blount.

Sandor and Jaime in particular will be the ones to save Stark girls from Cersei's monster UnGregor like it was foreshadowed in Bran's AGOT dream.

Eventually, Cersei witnessing Sansa's victory and Jaime's betrayal will finally understand Maggy the Frog's prophecy (this will be the time where all her three children are dead, hence "when tears have drowned you") about "the queen" and "valongar", so she will order the alchemist guild to burn down the city with wildfire. Jaime will try to stop Aerys 2.0, but will fail and die together with Cersei (she will stab him by his own blade while getting choked).

Maegor's Trial by Seven for me foreshadows that only one participant will survive: Arya. She and Sansa will flee the burning capital, which is under the siege during the second Hour of the Wolf (Jon is outside).

That might be a little crackpotish, so I am planning to open a new thread.

1. Looking forward to seeing the full argument in your thread.

2. With Cersei echoing the Mad King pretty clearly (the wildfire stuff is hard to ignore), the idea that there will be a comeuppance for her re: the Starks and Jaime seems inevitable. HOW that will happen. . . I like your idea of a flat out face off with the trial by seven. But not sure we'll actually get it. Martin hasn't been all that forth-coming with those kinds of "satisfactory" ends so far. Sometimes "justice" is doled out by others--the horror of what happens to Theon. But--that may be changing in later books. We do have Lady Stoneheart in the Riverlands taking fairly direct revenge.  . .

The idea of Jaime and Cersei--that seems easier to pull off. The specificity of it. Though I could also see Jaime's dying elsewhere--and then Cersei cursing Jaime with her last breath for not saving her. . . 

Sly Wren, as always great work! I love  the part about Jaime paralelling Rhaegar, never looked at it from this angle.

:cheers:

I found that while looking for something else, so it surprised me a bit, too. As I said to LmL above, I'm not sure I can argue that Jaime parallels Rhaegar. But those actions do echo him. And, just realized, he's the "stolen" son--taken by Aerys from Tywin. How far to go with that? Not sure. Which is why the end of my argument is "speculations."

Also, I do agree that Jaime is destined to do something awesome for Sansa and keep his vow of protecting her. In fact, I think Jaime along with Sandor will save both Arya and Sansa from UnGregor as described above. However, Sandor will be fatally wounded (and die for real this time, probably having an awesome goodbye with Stark sisters), while Jaime goes to confront Cersei and end her once and for all. 

While Jaime stopped wildfire plot killing the king first time and was antagonized, I think second time around with Cersei he will fail but will be lauded as a hero, a true knight, thanks to two Stark girls who were there when it happened.

I, too, think there's at least a chance Jaime will get credit for some heroism coming up. The hero who's seen as a villain and vice versa is a trope that Martin seems to like playing with. Jaime's a key version of that. As Ygritte says, it's all in where you're standing. Fits with LmL's theory on AA as the Bloodstone Emperor--a hero who was actually a villain. The idea that Jaime might actually get known for some heroism despite his failures--I like it.

And I, too, am hoping Sandor shows up again. 

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(Sorry if this is way off topic of what you wanted to talk about.)

HA! I don't know if you saw the earlier "Death to Dawn" threads (I really should have chosen as less "Zombie Apocalypse" title), but they always turned into sand-boxes. Playing around with similar ideas, going on tangents. Which made them fun. And what you are saying fits the basic premise--reading echoes and seeing how they play out. So--have at it!:cheers:

I agree the Sansa/Lyanna parallels are pretty compelling. Though I think it's textually pretty firm that Arthur and Lyanna both died at the Tower of Joy. However that doesn't preclude Lyanna having been at Starfall before that...maybe hiding there in disguise until she needed to hide her pregnancy? Or it may have simply been the plan to take her to Starfall after giving birth; so she was meant to go to the pale tower but never made it. I think that's actually quite likely; they may have been planning for Ashara to pass the baby off as her own while a disguised Lyanna posed as a nursemaid. (Nine months is a long time to sit around stewing about what to with your baby; Lyanna's contingency plans probably had contingency plans. What to do if the baby is fair/dark/mixed, what to do if RR succeeds/fails, what if Rhaegar or Lyanna live/die/are bedridden. What if prince Viserys escapes/doesn't escape, and on and on. Plan A - Plan ZZ, with Starfall figuring prominently in most of them.) Actually, regardless of what happened, Starfall was almost definitely their next destination, as a (relatively) close, Targ-friendly place with it's own port--plus it's Arthur Dayne's home, so. Makes sense.

I'm in the minority that's not sold on Lyanna's dying in the tower--could have. Could not have.

But--I agree re: the rest of the above. For all the reasons you give--plus the echoes of Lyanna in Sansa--and the way she's taken to a tower. And Ygritte's "real" end to the Blue Winter Rose. Bottom line--Starfall seems like it would at least be on the menu of places to go at some point.

Anyway...my only other thing to add is that I agree with your idea of echoes, and with the Brienne/Arthur Dayne/Jaime echoes. I would say the echoes go even farther back, though, to the Dawn age. Brienne, Arthur Dayne, and Jaime all echo what I've constructed of Symeon Star Eyes, whom I believe was a "true knight" aligned with sapphires and ice magic, recast by Rhllorians as the Great Other since he opposed Azor Ahai/the Bloodstone Emperor. Their main beef being BSE's murder of the Amethyst Empress, who was the sapphire knight's beloved.

Dany has gotten a good bit of attention as a strong echo of the Amethyst Empress, but I think Sansa plays the AE roll as well, not least because of her framing as the lover/beloved of sapphire knights. (Or at least sapphire "knights".) Joffrey and Loras both wear sapphires and make gestures of courting Sansa during the Hand's Tourney. Later, Brienne, true "knight" of the Sapphire Isle, seeks after Sansa to protect her. This is especially interesting to me since Cercei, during the seige of KL, mockingly says that Symeon Star Eyes will likely be along to save Sansa at any  minute. (She also mentions the Dragon Knight, who's also an echo of SSE, IMO.)

Okay--I had not seen this idea before (or I just don't remember it properly)--but I'm liking this very much. 

The Age of Heroes, or even the past where people were "true"--these ideas loom large in the current novels. The Wall will hold as long as the Watch stays true (whoops!). Sansa and Ned and Bran's ideals re: knights. Same with Jon. The idea of a true knight/fighter at the Wall with an echo back to the Great Empire--I'm liking this a lot.

Am wondering if it works as such a knight's being an opposing image to the Night's King? The Night's King--using magics/sacrifices. Vs. simply staying true and "watching" and defending the realms of men. Fits a bit with Jaime's version: the Smiling Knight and Kingswood Brotherhood promising the small folk things and fighting for power. But Arthur, not corrupt like the Smiling Knight--AND making sure the small folk got what they needed. 

Am now thinking I need to go looking for other pairings like this.

RE: Dany and Sansa--I had not thought of that. But the Amethyst Empress does seem "idealized"--and Sansa does not give up on her ideals. And I am one that thinks annoying tween-Sansa is going to end up doing good, strong things.

In a lot of ways I see the sapphire knight of the Dawn Age as a sort of Ground Zero for the ripples and echoes about true knights. Arthur Dayne and all the Swords of the Morning echo him, Brienne echos strongly (very strongly to me since IMO Ser Galadon was an another alias of this sapphire knight, AE being the maid who lost her heart to him and gave him a magic sword--half of the ancestral Dawn of the Great Empire of the Dawn). Jaime also echoes him, in more than one way since I also think SK & AE were twins. Jon Snow echoes him too--explicitly echoing SSE with his eye injury from the eagle.

On the second "Death to Dawn," Lady Barbrey posited that the Daynes were descendants of the Amethyst Empress. Same with the Braavosi--escaping slavery, an abomination of the Valyrians. That this would (among other things) tie in with the purple sails of the Braavosi (not to mention Tycho Nestoris) and the purple of the Daynes. And their appearance. You can read the un-garbled-via-my-memory version of it here

It seems like it might fit with your idea re: SSE and the sapphires, as well as your ties into Brienne and Sansa's sapphire knights.. . . 

I haven't given a lot of thought to sapphire knight/Sandor Clegane, however Sandor's extreme aversion to fire makes a neat hook to connect him to a figure of ice magic. And he, too, has a very significant relationship with Sansa, an AE echo. Sandor's bitter rivalry with his brother could also echo SSE/BSE conflict.

Interesting--especially since Sandor, for all of his unpleasantness, still has a "code" of sorts. He hates knights because they fail to live up to the ideal. Sansa believes in the ideal. Weirdly, so does Sandor--just thinks no one lives up to it. . . 

Anyway, I think an important aspect of the True Knight as constructed by Martin is that they are inherently compromised in some way. The ASOIAF True Knight archetype, the sapphire knight, was I believe the lover of his sister, and perhaps later consumed with avenging her. All the true knights that you mention are also deeply compromised; even Brienne has now lied to Jaime and is likely on her way to becoming even more gray. It's not even due to an error or failing in most cases; life simply throws them into no-win situations and they have to make a choice. 

I guess that's basically what you were saying about the Stark girls needing to understand both the ideal and the reality of true knights.

Yup!!! A point Martin makes over and over again--the true knight is ultimately true, but not flawless. A lesson Arys Oakheart gets--along with a lot of other lessons. Brienne does seem like she's about to be faced with the hard choice. Jon was, too. 

And, yes, the Stark girls do need to understand this. But they also need (let's face it--all of Westeros needs) people/fighters who will overcome their failings and follow through on their ideals. On their oaths. So far, the Starks haven't given up on that basic ideal. Even in the face of others' and their own failures. Brienne--her potential upcoming crisis of faith should be very interesting. 

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Arthur's at the tower when Ned and co. get there. Where was he before that? Text doesn't say. But text repeatedly tells us people echo each other's actions and history repeats. And I really think, based on all of the above, that Jaime and Brienne are echoing Rhaegar and Arthur. 

Well, that's here in my Bael thread.

Nutshell: when you look at the context in which the Bael Tale is told, what elements Ygritte stresses vs. what she disclaims, and how the echo of Bael is used in the novels (IE: Baelish and Mance come up BEFORE we ever hear about Bael--the context is established first)--Bael's Tale is about a raider and a sneak and future king sticking it to an enemy. The Stark maid is barely mentioned in the tale, especially compared to Bael and his grudge. Her "love" is the one part of the tale Ygritte slaps a disclaimer on. His singing is just how he is able to trick Brandon the Daughterless. The focus is on his being a raider and future king--sticking it to an enemy.

Whereas in the Knight of the Laughing Tree--Aerys is the king who was wroth against an enemy over a perceived slight. And we know that at Harrenhal, he "steals" Jaime to spite Tywin--a perceived enemy. A fact Jaime himself recognizes.

Given all of that--Rhaegar seems more in line with the singers in the novels vs. the 4 named bards who are all schemers--Bael, Mance as Abel, Denzo D'han--or USED by schemers--the Blue Bard. There are lots of singers in the novels--that's not uncommon. But the scheming Bael figure who sticks it to enemies via stealing a child, an action that ends in kinslaying disaster--that's much less common. And doesn't fit Rhaegar as well as it fits Aerys. 

But Rhaegar is the reformer and son trying to manage the father. And we do see/ hear of Jaime echoing Rhaegar himself. That echo is not just a tale. But the more recent past. Same with Brienne. 

Wow, I disagree with all of that and I think you're torturing the Bael story beyond recognition... no offense. His two most famous attributes are his bardness, and his seduction of maidens. I agree with Julia's view on this - that's why I didn't comment on the Bael threads. I just totally disagree with how you're perceiving the Bael story, and the idea that you've come around to saying Aerys is more Bael than Rhaegar kind of shows that your logic has issues, in my opinion. It's just way too counterintuitive.  I don't think Aerys has any parallels with Bael, while Rhaegar's are easy for anyone to spot.  

Its probably better if I just leave this thread alone, because it seems like I disagree on the basic premise as well as the logic used at to arrive at the conclusions. I don't want to be a wet blanket so there's no point in going back and forth.. but yeah, I'm not seeing it. :(

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To continue the allusions to the other two characters you were discussing, Lyanna and Rhaegar:

When discussing modern analogs of 1st Long Night figures, Rhaegar is most often compared to the Bloodstone Emperor and/or Azor Ahai. But in his relationship with Lyanna I see him framed as the sapphire knight, SSE. The blue roses are most often seen as a symbol of Lyanna, but I think it's important to note that Lyanna does not get herself blue roses, they are a gift from her lover/beloved (or at least her admiring knight depending on when we're talking about.) I think the SSE is the originator of the blue rose symbolism; that he gave the AE a blue rose, or a sapphire rose, or a rose made of blue ice, as a symbol of their love. This set the ASOIAF archetype for the warrior/maid chivalric romance. (A subtle but huge nod to the warrior/maid relationship is seen when Melisandre burns the 7 on Dragonstone and the warrior falls "athwart" the maid.) Usually it's a red rose, as fire magic has become dominant in the world rather than ice magic, but with Lyanna & Rhaegar the echo is particularly strong so we get the original blue rose. (Sansa *almost* gets a blue rose; she gets a red rose from a knight wearing sapphires and blue flowers. It will be interesting to see what her eventual true knight gives her.)

Very interesting. Potential problems: blue is very often associated with deception and death in these novels. "Blue as the eyes of death." And in the Bael Tale, Bale leaves the blue rose to tell Brandon the Daughterless he's been deceived. It's one of the reasons I'm not at all sure Rhaegar was behind the blue rose crown.

But I'm thinking more and more (as the OP argues) that Rhaegar "came through" for Lyanna. Which would tie into the true knight idea. 

Like the Amethyst Empress, Lyanna is betrayed by her own blood---but very literally in L's case; her own actual blood betrays her by not staying put and fighting infection as it should. Her lover is not only killed but his name blackened in history by his rival, as SSE became re-framed as the Great Other by followers of Azor Ahai.

On the first bolded--are you saying the Starks should have stayed in Winterfell and prepared for the Long Night? Something else?

On the second-bolded: I'm liking this. Any chance you'd be willing to expand?

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Wow, I disagree with all of that and I think you're torturing the Bael story beyond recognition... no offense. His two most famous attributes are his bardness, and his seduction of maidens. I agree with Julia's view on this - that's why I didn't comment on the Bael threads. I just totally disagree with how you're perceiving the Bael story, and the idea that you've come around to saying Aerys is more Bael than Rhaegar kind of shows that your logic has issues, in my opinion. It's just way too counterintuitive.  I don't think Aerys has any parallels with Bael, while Rhaegar's are easy for anyone to spot.

And before I re-read the books, I was right with you on that. But after reading the whole tale including disclaimers and context and references and the other novels, I kept hearing Inigo Montoya in my head: "You keep using that tale. I do not think it means what you think in means."

But all good--no worries. I really think we've gotten to the point where we can disagree, even strongly, and still get along.

Its probably better if I just leave this thread alone, because it seems like I disagree on the basic premise as well as the logic used at to arrive at the conclusions. I don't want to be a wet blanket so there's no point in going back and forth.. but yeah, I'm not seeing it. :(

All fair.

Though @Blind Beth the Cat Lady has been arguing above about true knights and the Great Empire. Which I think fits with a lot of you ideas. So, if you're so inclined, come back and play in the sand-box on whatever topic suits your fancy.:cheers:

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