From Death to Dawn #3: Sansa, Lyanna, Jaime, Rhaegar, and the Search for One True Knight

[LmL]

And before I re-read the books, I was right with you on that. But after reading the whole tale including disclaimers and context and references and the other novels, I kept hearing Inigo Montoya in my head: "You keep using that tale. I do not think it means what you think in means."

But all good--no worries. I really think we've gotten to the point where we can disagree, even strongly, and still get along.

All fair.

Though @Blind Beth the Cat Lady has been arguing above about true knights and the Great Empire. Which I think fits with a lot of you ideas. So, if you're so inclined, come back and play in the sand-box on whatever topic suits your fancy.

Right on, you know it's all good.

As for the idea of Dawn Age archetypes repeating in the main story, you know I'm very much a proponent of this, as is Blind Beth. The Symeon Star Eyes is one she has honed in on, while I have focused on the Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa / Lightbriger ones. 

I would further add that these Dawn Age archetypes correlate with the astronomy of the Long Night. The Nissa Nissa archetype is actually the moon maiden archetype, which can appear in both icy and fiery incarnations. I completely agree that Sansa plays the moon maiden role, like the Amethyst Empress and Nissa Nissa. Consider Sansa's black amethyst poison hairnet, the one that turned Joffrey's solar face dark. That's a depiction of the moon from which dragons (poison meteors, serpents, etc) pour forth. Those poison snake meteors darken the sun, just as they did to Joffrey, whose face turns dark purple. The Amethyts call out to the Amethyst Empress, and the Asshai reference calls out to Azor Ahai and Lightbringer and dragons. 

All that throwing women out of the moon door (Lysa, almost Sansa), maidens leaping from towers (Ashara) or dying in the tops of towers (Lyanna) or almost dying high in the mountains (Ygritte)... that's all referring to casting the moon goddes down from heaven. The maiden that lost her heart to Galladon and gave him a sword, the fallen star in the Dawn story, the goddess pulled down from heaven by the Durran Durrandon... all referring to the moon goddess who fell from heaven like a bleeding star, like a dragon, like a snake, like a thunderbolt, and like a hammer. The Bloodstone Emperor "cast down" the true gods, and also "cast down" the Amethyst Empress... because they both represent the second moon which was destroyed  

At least, you know... that's my rap. The point is, the archetypes and the things they do are, on one level at least, referring back to the forging of Lightbringer moon disaster. 

[LmL]

Sly Wren, we talked the other day about Sansa echoing the Night's Queen in the snowcastle scene - she's even called "a snow maid." The NQ, you'll notice, had skin as pale as the moon - that's our icy moon maiden archetype.  Lyanna, with her blue as frost lunar halo-like crown, makes for a terrific incarnation of the ice moon maiden, which is what the NQ and ice maiden Sansa are playing out as well. So, Lyanna would seem to have parallels to the NQ, being icy moon maidens. And Rhaegar, with his night black armor... a warrior who knew no fear, who's desire for the icy moon maiden led to his downfall - there's your Night's King. 

The NK and the NQ made white shadows - Others. Sansa the snow maiden made a snow castle and "snow knights," which sound like Others of course. When Sam talks to Cotter Pyke, Cotter asks him if he really killed or an Other, or just "some child's snow knight." If you think that greenseers had something to do with making Others, as I do, then this is one of many clues indicating this.  Another is Asha referring to "the time when the children turned the trees to warriors." In any case, Sansa makes snow knights, which I think refers to the NQ making Others.

Lyanna, meanwhile, has given birth to the "ice dragon," if you will, he who is armored in black ice, Lord Snow. He's a black shadow, not a white shadow, but he does HAVE a white shadow by his side. Rhaegar, the NK parallel, has white shadows guarding him and his NQ - the KG, like Ghost and the Others, are called "white shadows" or sometimes "pale shadows." They all guard or follow black shadow-affiliated people. 

Theres a great scene where a weirwood is a "pale shadow," AND "armored in ice," which further links Jon's "armored in ice" to the Others, the pale shadows. Dany also dreams of melting troops "armored in ice" while on dragonback, which everyone takes for Others, who are literally armored in ice. 

Any way you slice it, NK + icy moon maiden = something which represents the Others. 

All that leads me to believe that Azor Ahai, who Rhaegar also strongly parallels, was also the NK. Stannis is another person who parallels AA and the NK. Mel's sucking of his seed and soul to birth black shadows has been suggested by some as a parallel to the NK and NQ situation, which I agree with. 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

 

HA! I don't know if you saw the earlier "Death to Dawn" threads (I really should have chosen as less "Zombie Apocalypse" title), but they always turned into sand-boxes. Playing around with similar ideas, going on tangents. Which made them fun. And what you are saying fits the basic premise--reading echoes and seeing how they play out. So--have at it!

I'm in the minority that's not sold on Lyanna's dying in the tower--could have. Could not have.

But--I agree re: the rest of the above. For all the reasons you give--plus the echoes of Lyanna in Sansa--and the way she's taken to a tower. And Ygritte's "real" end to the Blue Winter Rose. Bottom line--Starfall seems like it would at least be on the menu of places to go at some point.

Okay--I had not seen this idea before (or I just don't remember it properly)--but I'm liking this very much. 

The Age of Heroes, or even the past where people were "true"--these ideas loom large in the current novels. The Wall will hold as long as the Watch stays true (whoops!). Sansa and Ned and Bran's ideals re: knights. Same with Jon. The idea of a true knight/fighter at the Wall with an echo back to the Great Empire--I'm liking this a lot.

Am wondering if it works as such a knight's being an opposing image to the Night's King? The Night's King--using magics/sacrifices. Vs. simply staying true and "watching" and defending the realms of men. Fits a bit with Jaime's version: the Smiling Knight and Kingswood Brotherhood promising the small folk things and fighting for power. But Arthur, not corrupt like the Smiling Knight--AND making sure the small folk got what they needed. 

--LmL and I disagree on this, but it seems to me as though the incident with the Night's King was a Whiskey Rebellion-esque flare-up after the Long Night/Battle for the Dawn had ended. I think the Night's King was trying to revive the ice magic that had formed one side of the SSE/AA Long Night conflict. Stark in Winterfell and king of the Wildlings both wanted the peace to hold and shut him down. I also think that the Others in general also want the peace to hold, only attack when they are provoked by Team Fire breaking truce terms. (Royce and Sam Tarley both have fire magic connections--they are the provocations IMO.) The Night's Queen was an exception to this, just as the Night's King was a human exception. 

I also think this sapphire knight, while he started out a true knight, perhaps as noble as Brienne, over time became a much darker figure. By the end he may not have needed a lot of massaging to be cast as the Great Other by AA followers. So in a sense he was both Arthur Dayne and the Smiling Knight. Much like the Brotherhood without Banners he starts out in the right but over the course of a long war he becomes darker and more oriented to simple revenge.

Am now thinking I need to go looking for other pairings like this.

RE: Dany and Sansa--I had not thought of that. But the Amethyst Empress does seem "idealized"--and Sansa does not give up on her ideals. And I am one that thinks annoying tween-Sansa is going to end up doing good, strong things.

--Oh definitely. :-)

On the second "Death to Dawn," Lady Barbrey posited that the Daynes were descendants of the Amethyst Empress. Same with the Braavosi--escaping slavery, an abomination of the Valyrians. That this would (among other things) tie in with the purple sails of the Braavosi (not to mention Tycho Nestoris) and the purple of the Daynes. And their appearance. You can read the un-garbled-via-my-memory version of it here. 

It seems like it might fit with your idea re: SSE and the sapphires, as well as your ties into Brienne and Sansa's sapphire knights.. . . 

--I never even picked up on the purple sails thing...I'll go check that out, thanks!

Interesting--especially since Sandor, for all of his unpleasantness, still has a "code" of sorts. He hates knights because they fail to live up to the ideal. Sansa believes in the ideal. Weirdly, so does Sandor--just thinks no one lives up to it. . . 

Yup!!! A point Martin makes over and over again--the true knight is ultimately true, but not flawless. A lesson Arys Oakheart gets--along with a lot of other lessons. Brienne does seem like she's about to be faced with the hard choice. Jon was, too. 

And, yes, the Stark girls do need to understand this. But they also need (let's face it--all of Westeros needs) people/fighters who will overcome their failings and follow through on their ideals. On their oaths. So far, the Starks haven't given up on that basic ideal. Even in the face of others' and their own failures. Brienne--her potential upcoming crisis of faith should be very interesting. 

--Yeah. It seems like Martin is saying that really what makes a "true knight" is the continuing desire and effort to be so. Everyone does things they're not proud of. But giving up on the idea, descending into cynicism, is a recipe for for deeper darkness.

 

Very interesting. Potential problems: blue is very often associated with deception and death in these novels. "Blue as the eyes of death." And in the Bael Tale, Bale leaves the blue rose to tell Brandon the Daughterless he's been deceived. It's one of the reasons I'm not at all sure Rhaegar was behind the blue rose crown.

--Well I guess there are a lot of possible readings of the Bael tale...I just went back and re-read it. Through my lense, it looks more like Bael seduced the daughter using the gift of the blue rose. I think Ygritte is right to be skeptical; I doubt this was a matter of true love, but I think the Stark daughter had enough temporary infatuation with the bard to want his child at the time. Otherwise why hide her pregnancy in the crypts--seems like she very much wanted to keep it, with no interference from her family. Hard for me to see another explanation there.

Blue is definitely associated with death. As I said I think the SSE became a very dark figure as his cause became more desperate, dealing in necromancy and other questionable magics. However I think the story of blue/blue rose/sapphire is not about deception per se but seduction. Loras's sapphire armor during the Hand's tourney is often pointed to as evidence of sapphires as representing lies/deception. But even on a very literal level this is more specifically about seduction--the mare in heat seduces the stallion. Likewise Loras seduces Sansa (although unintentionally). The Knight of Flowers also seduces the crowd. And according to my reading it's also meant as an echo of the sapphire knight winning the heart of the Amethyst Empress. 

Seduction and deception are not exactly distant concepts, so it's natural to see both in the same story. But I think the main idea, with Loras's armor and with Bael the Bard, is seduction. (Bael is still a crappy, dishonorable dude, of course, using seduction in the worst way, while I believe the SSE truly loved the AE, more similar to how Rhaegar loved Lyanna.)

But I'm thinking more and more (as the OP argues) that Rhaegar "came through" for Lyanna. Which would tie into the true knight idea. 

On the first bolded--are you saying the Starks should have stayed in Winterfell and prepared for the Long Night? Something else?

--No, just tracing the reiterating theme of Blood Betrayal. BSE's blood betrayal of the AE began the events of the Long Night. Joffrey's double-crossing of both Ned and Sansa (who both play aspects of the AE in the Baelor scene IMO, Sansa being the primary but Ned being the one who's murder kicks off a long, dark conflict) echoes this. Dance of Dragons and Blackfyre rebellions echo it as well to an extent. Lyanna and Rhagar play out the echoes again (a warrior, a maiden, blue roses, a baby, a usurper), except Lyanna is not outright murdered, but rather "betrayed" by her own literal blood inside her body during childbirth. (Or, who knows, I guess she might have been poisoned or something rather than dying just of childbirth complications. Maesters are sketchy af. But I think the parallel holds even if no one purposely killed Lyanna.)

On the second-bolded: I'm liking this. Any chance you'd be willing to expand?

--Sure. I should probably do my own thread about this, but I have a lot of trouble organizing my ideas. And dealing with the people who drop by just to say "this is stupid" really gets me down, lol. 

So, as I see the human elements of the Long Night playing out: Opal Emperor has five children, 4 legitimate and 1 bastard. These children correlate with the most common colors of an opal: green, purple, blue, red, gold. They become known to history as Garth Greenhand, the Amethyst Empress, Symeon Star-Eyes, the Bloodstone Emperor, and Lann the Clever. Garth is supposed to be the heir, but he is a total hippie and abdicates to go be the fertility deity of Westeros. This brings succession into question. For reasons I won't get into right now, I think AE and SSE are twins, with AE being a few minutes older. Thus OE declares she will succeed him. Because 1) having a twin brother around is likely to cause succession issues, with people rebelling and declaring for the brother and 2) AE and SSE's Very Close Relationship is not ok in Dawnia--SSE goes away to Westeros, where he hones his knightly prowess and ice magic abilities (like reflective ice armor: see Serwyn of the Mirror Shield).

Meanwhile BSE is jealous of AE, thinks he should rule instead of her (for whatever reason). After OE dies, he makes his move and Blood Betrayal ensues. But at the moment of her death AE wargs into her dragon, flies to Westeros (this is subtext of Dany's fever dream). Before he left, AE had ancestral sword Dawn split, giving him half--this is the story of Ser Galadon and Just Maid. BSE wants the sword, perhaps also a permanent end to AE. Garth is like "um no I'm the king around here buddy, go home." So BSE challenges, then treacherously kills him (this echoed by Stanis's killing of Renly). SSE goes north to rally troops, enlists help of a contentious warg family who will become the Starks (this is when SSE sees the "hellhounds" fighting.) 

Epic war between BSE and SSE ensues, with BSE mainly using fire magic and SSE ice magic. This is the on-the-ground conflict of the Long Night (while LmL's astronomy stuff happens above). War wears on, and on, and on, for a generation. Eventually Azor Ahai super charges his sword (aka AE's half of Dawn) with Nissa Nissa's heart to make an end to SSE. Azor Ahai may be a recasting of BSE, or BSE's son, or possibly SSE&AE's son, raised as BSE's son (this would incorporate more Bael the Bard echoes.) 

Meanwhile Last Hero/Bran the Builder decides this has all gotten out of hand, goes to CotF for a solution. Which is the wall. All of this wraps up with Team Ice being given Beyond the Wall and Team Fire getting everything else. Neutral humans and CotF can pass on both sides. SSE definitely and AA probably dead by the end. (SSE may be the "monster" whose body boiled and melted when stabbed by Lightbringer.) But because Team Fire came out on top, SSE is remembered only as a dark figure, cast as the Great Other by the followers of Azor Ahai, while AA himself is cast only as a hero. 

Night's King & Queen try to revive their Team Ice heritage, but memory of the war is fresh and no one wants that happening again, no matter how unfairly it might have ended. 

 

[Sly Wren]

All that throwing women out of the moon door (Lysa, almost Sansa), maidens leaping from towers (Ashara) or dying in the tops of towers (Lyanna) or almost dying high in the mountains (Ygritte)... that's all referring to casting the moon goddes down from heaven. The maiden that lost her heart to Galladon and gave him a sword, the fallen star in the Dawn story, the goddess pulled down from heaven by the Durran Durrandon... all referring to the moon goddess who fell from heaven like a bleeding star, like a dragon, like a snake, like a thunderbolt, and like a hammer. The Bloodstone Emperor "cast down" the true gods, and also "cast down" the Amethyst Empress... because they both represent the second moon which was destroyed

The throwing or jumping out of towers being tied to the moon maid--especially in Sansa's grapple with Lysa at the moon door--is an interesting one. 

In Game, we hear about Ashara's suicide (which comes up in the rest of the books, too, save Feast). And, of course, we have it in the Bael Tale in Clash.

But Sansa: In Game, after Ned's horrible death, she thinks

Perhaps I will die too, she told herself, and the thought did not seem so terrible to her. If she flung herself from the window, she could put an end to her suffering, and in the years to come the singers would write songs of her grief. Her body would lie on the stones below, broken and innocent, shaming all those who had betrayed her. Sansa went so far as to cross the bedchamber and throw open the shutters … but then her courage left her, and she ran back to her bed, sobbing. Game, Sansa VI

The moon-maid sees herself as a potential sacrifice and warning. And escape. But she rejects the idea in fear. In Storm, she fights the ultimate cat-fight, complete with hair-pulling, to NOT be thrown from the tower. Not just refusing to kill herself, but fighting to live.

Similar with Arya in Feast: 

He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead. The lady should go kill the ones who killed her prince. And the singer should be on the Wall. When Dareon had first appeared at the Happy Port, Arya had almost asked if he would take her with him back to Eastwatch, until she heard him telling Bethany that he was never going back. "Hard beds, salt cod, and endless watches, that's the Wall," he'd said. "Besides, there's no one half as pretty as you at Eastwatch. How could I ever leave you?" He had said the same thing to Lanna, Cat had heard, and to one of the whores at the Cattery, and even to the Nightingale the night he played at the House of Seven Lamps. Feast, Cat of the Canals.

In both cases, the moon-maids refuse to either sacrifice themselves or be sacrificed. Arya goes so far as to focus on revenge and reject the idea of singers and their "romance" at al. As Sansa feels about Marillion. Even as a frightened child, Sansa couldn't bring herself to embrace the destiny of being sung about. And Arya feels anger and a need to enforce the sense of duty to the Wall.

So, if (as I'm willing to stake my second favorite pair of shoes on--and you know what that means to me, dude!) Sansa and Arya are echoing Lyanna, what is Martin saying about this sort of moon-maid? The sort of sacrifice she is or is not willing to make?

Sansa is unique in the wolf-maid world--her wolf self is sacrificed while she lives. She can be both the moon-maid sacrifice and the living maid. 

Am wondering if this goes back more to Voice's idea re: the changing woman. That moon-maids are innately changeable.

On Brienne and Galladon--I agree that the giving of the blade has the "giving heart" quality of the more grisly Nissa Nissa. The difference? The Maiden doesn't die. Gives a gift without dying. So--possibility for the moon-maid to bring forth/gift a weapon without death? Only love? (that sounds like a really weird Hallmark card)

Back soon re: your stuff on the Night's Queen.

[Sly Wren]

Sly Wren, we talked the other day about Sansa echoing the Night's Queen in the snowcastle scene - she's even called "a snow maid." The NQ, you'll notice, had skin as pale as the moon - that's our icy moon maiden archetype.  Lyanna, with her blue as frost lunar halo-like crown, makes for a terrific incarnation of the ice moon maiden, which is what the NQ and ice maiden Sansa are playing out as well. So, Lyanna would seem to have parallels to the NQ, being icy moon maidens. And Rhaegar, with his night black armor... a warrior who knew no fear, who's desire for the icy moon maiden led to his downfall - there's your Night's King.

1. First up on the black armor: have you seen @Pretty Pig's analysis re: the black-armor? It's marvelous--and not just because of the pun.

2. I agree that Sansa's white skin gives her the Night's Queen quality. And she, Sansa, and others have moon maid imagery--as does Dany. Especially with Ned's calling the blue rose petals in his tower dream "blue as the eyes of death."

The thing is--the Night's Queen seems more like Mel than any of the Stark Maids so far. I can't find anything in the any of the Stark-ettes that suggests they have that kind of magical knowledge. Or inspire human sacrifice. Or sorcery. Sansa and Arya are wargs. Area's learning stuff. And @sweetsunray's ideas re: what Sansa sees suggest she has some "vision" or magic. But--human sacrifice? Are you thinking of something specific re: Night's Queen on this, other than appearance?

Dany has some of that. Makes me worry about Jorah--as if I didn't already have reason. 

As for Rhaegar--does he really fit "the warrior who knew no fear?" Granted, he thinks he's going to win at the Trident.But  Aerys is the one who "sacrifices" people. Rhaegar's exact motives for wanting to change power aren't in the text yet. But he does seem to be interested in having everyone get along. The Night's King--the basics of coming back to the Night Fort and binding people to his will with sorcery, etc. . . . Having a hard time seeing how that would apply to Rhaegar. To Stannis? Yup. Even to Jon, depending on how people see his "methods." But Rhaegar? Are you thinking of something specific?

 The NK and the NQ made white shadows - Others. Sansa the snow maiden made a snow castle and "snow knights," which sound like Others of course. When Sam talks to Cotter Pyke, Cotter asks him if he really killed or an Other, or just "some child's snow knight." If you think that greenseers had something to do with making Others, as I do, then this is one of many clues indicating this.  Another is Asha referring to "the time when the children turned the trees to warriors." In any case, Sansa makes snow knights, which I think refers to the NQ making Others.

Yeah--I'm more inclined to read Sansa's snow knights as making the knights she needs. What she's longing for--as she's comforted by Sandor's stained-with-fire-and-blood white cloak.  And a reference to Jon. She's remembering Winterfell and the innocence of snow--the purity of that world. Which fits the purity of intent she assigns to "true knights." And, since she can't be with Arya and Bran--she remember that snowball fight before making the knights--she can make other protectors. Which turn into Winterfell--her ultimate protection/ideal/safe home/pure world.

The kind of magics needed for the Others--whether you think they are Craster's boys or not--can't see that in Sansa--again--are you thinking of something re: that kind of sacrifice?

Lyanna, meanwhile, has given birth to the "ice dragon," if you will, he who is armored in black ice, Lord Snow. He's a black shadow, not a white shadow, but he does HAVE a white shadow by his side. Rhaegar, the NK parallel, has white shadows guarding him and his NQ - the KG, like Ghost and the Others, are called "white shadows" or sometimes "pale shadows." They all guard or follow black shadow-affiliated people.

And Jon--I know we aren't likely to agree on this any time soon--but all the imagery around him is wolves, swords, duty, moons, snow--not dragons. He uses the ice dragon idiom, yes. But the sworn brother wolf-man sword-wielder savior--that's what we see around Jon and what he sees.

Theres a great scene where a weirwood is a "pale shadow," AND "armored in ice," which further links Jon's "armored in ice" to the Others, the pale shadows. Dany also dreams of melting troops "armored in ice" while on dragonback, which everyone takes for Others, who are literally armored in ice. 

I'd say armored in ice against the Others. .. but that might be where you were going. As for Dany's dream--when she opens that visor at the end of Game and sees her own face in that armor, the armor Rhaegar died in, really seems like that's "Look out, kid! You're next! Your brother failed--and now you are him!!"

So, I read the Trident dream in Storm as more wish fulfillment: "this is how it was "meant" to be," she says. "The other [meaning real life] was the nightmare." And when she wakes, flush with triumph, her party gets rained on when she's woken by the voice of Quaithe. 

Any way you slice it, NK + icy moon maiden = something which represents the Others. 

All that leads me to believe that Azor Ahai, who Rhaegar also strongly parallels, was also the NK. Stannis is another person who parallels AA and the NK. Mel's sucking of his seed and soul to birth black shadows has been suggested by some as a parallel to the NK and NQ situation, which I agree with. 

Agreed on the equations--just not sure Rhaegar = Night's King. Stannis? Yup. Rhaegar? Seems more like the sacrifice--at the price of Aerys' corruption--than the sacrificer. . . 

ETA: @Blind Beth the Cat Lady--will be back soon to dig into your ideas as soon as I have time to do them justice.

[LmL]

I'm short on time, but I will just say that the NK was a sacrifice too. He gave his seed and soul to the NK, probably to make pale shadows. 

I tend to identify archetypes by their raw symbols, not their specific intent as you do, which is why we kind of aren't speaking the same language. The NK was a warrior without fear, dressed in black, who loved an icy moon maiden, and whose love for that moon maiden led to his being a sacrifice, his "dynasty" torn down, and his name shamed in history. Rhaegar fits all of those things. Lyanna is the icy moon maiden. Rhaegar wears black armor. He fearlessly declared that he must become a warrior, and then took on the head of the rebellion one on one. His love for his moon maiden led to his sacrifice. His dynasty was torn down. 

Jon's parallel with the Others simply equates the children of both unions, since the NK and NQ were (IMO) making Others. 

The reason why Jon is the most popular candidate for AA reborn is because he fits the AA archetype, which I call the black dragon. At least, that's one of the main aspects of it. Stannis also matches AA reborn symbolism, but also NK symbolism. And I have always wondered if that is because AA = NK. I'm seeing both symbolism in Rhaegar, and probably Jon too. Mel is a perfect fire moon maiden, just as Lyanna, Sansa, and the NQ are perfect ice moon maidens. 

As to Sansa making Others - of course not, lol. You're taking it too literally and focusing on intent. The pattern is probably there because George is using Sansa to give us clues about the NQ. The NQ is the mystery here, not Sansa. Sansa's future will probably parallel the NQ / ice moon maiden archetype in some way, but that can come out any way George wants. It can be inverted, reversed, or it could just mean something a little different. Instead of making Others, perhaps she is the one to continue the line of House Stark, the "knights" (warriors) of the North. That would still fit the symbolism, but the result is much happier. And I don't think Rhaegar and the NK have to have the same motive - it can be different to suit their individual stories. But I just listed seven parallels between them, and that's without using Stannis as evidence to indicate NK and AA are part of the same archetype. 

Also, if I am right that AA = the Bloodstone Emperor, who was a dark sorcerer king who caused the LN and not the hero who ended it, then who was Azor Ahai but the King of the Long Night? The Night's King? 

[J. Stargaryen]

Anyone interested in the subject of Rhaegar's armor and rubies should google Edward of Woodstock.

[purple-eyes]

So rhaegar is night king now? 

He did sacrifice his children and thousands people for his Others queen lyanna though. 

So Robert and ned managed to defeat him, like the stark and the wildlings king. 

This makes sense. And lyanna is an others which did fit her. 

 

[Sly Wren]

--LmL and I disagree on this, but it seems to me as though the incident with the Night's King was a Whiskey Rebellion-esque flare-up after the Long Night/Battle for the Dawn had ended. I think the Night's King was trying to revive the ice magic that had formed one side of the SSE/AA Long Night conflict. Stark in Winterfell and king of the Wildlings both wanted the peace to hold and shut him down. I also think that the Others in general also want the peace to hold, only attack when they are provoked by Team Fire breaking truce terms. (Royce and Sam Tarley both have fire magic connections--they are the provocations IMO.) The Night's Queen was an exception to this, just as the Night's King was a human exception.

 This is pretty close to my current reading as well. The Night's King ruling without fear and chasing the woman sounds like he's pursuing something he really shouldn't. Throw in the echoes with Mel and Stannis, the ways Stannis and Selyse are NOT helping the wildling situation at the Wall (Jon thinks them bloody southron fools)--this really seems like a breaking of the peace. And a warning never to do it again--name blotted out of a Stark, the ancient Wall protecting family--feels almost like the Egyptians erasing names from tombs or sarcophagi to undermine passage to the next life.

Don't know if you've read @Voice's warg-blocking theory and the ideas re: the Targs "breaking" the peace, but it could be up your alley considering the above.

 

I also think this sapphire knight, while he started out a true knight, perhaps as noble as Brienne, over time became a much darker figure. By the end he may not have needed a lot of massaging to be cast as the Great Other by AA followers. So in a sense he was both Arthur Dayne and the Smiling Knight. Much like the Brotherhood without Banners he starts out in the right but over the course of a long war he becomes darker and more oriented to simple revenge.

<snip>

--Yeah. It seems like Martin is saying that really what makes a "true knight" is the continuing desire and effort to be so. Everyone does things they're not proud of. But giving up on the idea, descending into cynicism, is a recipe for for deeper darkness.

Re: the Night's King and sapphire knight-- that the cynical, untrue knight has similar qualities. As Jaime says of the Smiling Knight-- 

"It was Ser Arthur who slew him. What a fight that was, and what a foe. The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear" Storm, Jaime VIII. 

And Jaime says this in the same novel Bran remembers Nan's Night's King story. So, a recipe for darkness, definitely. Revenge maybe--as you say with the brotherhood. But also--power.

And the Smiling Knight is only put down by Arthur Dayne, the true knight. 

Am now wondering what Joramun and the actual Stark in Winterfell at the time were like. . . 

ETA: Somehow my post got completely mucked up. So--to make it a bit more comprehensible, I'm going to have to retrofit a bit

@Blind Beth the Cat Lady- said: I never even picked up on the purple sails thing...I'll go check that out, thanks!

  Lady Barbrey is off the forums for a bit. But her threads are great. Though I think at least one of them was lost in the Purge.

@Blind Beth the Cat Lady said: 

-Well I guess there are a lot of possible readings of the Bael tale...I just went back and re-read it. Through my lense, it looks more like Bael seduced the daughter using the gift of the blue rose. I think Ygritte is right to be skeptical; I doubt this was a matter of true love, but I think the Stark daughter had enough temporary infatuation with the bard to want his child at the time. Otherwise why hide her pregnancy in the crypts--seems like she very much wanted to keep it, with no interference from her family. Hard for me to see another explanation there.

Agreed on lots of readings. The disclaimer and lack of focus on the Stark Maid in the Tale gives me serious pause. And Sansa "willingly" goes with the Lannister deceivers--and regrets it. And now is "willingly" hiding with Bael-ish--because he framed her. And I'm thinking there's a good chance she'll kill him.

We only get the Tale via an interpreter who focuses on what she sees as the "bard's truth." Which fits, since the Tale itself plays out in echoes and skewed parallels.  How Lyanna's echo played out? That will be interesting to see.

@Blind Beth the Cat Lady said: 

Blue is definitely associated with death. As I said I think the SSE became a very dark figure as his cause became more desperate, dealing in necromancy and other questionable magics. However I think the story of blue/blue rose/sapphire is not about deception per se but seduction. Loras's sapphire armor during the Hand's tourney is often pointed to as evidence of sapphires as representing lies/deception. But even on a very literal level this is more specifically about seduction--the mare in heat seduces the stallion. Likewise Loras seduces Sansa (although unintentionally). The Knight of Flowers also seduces the crowd. And according to my reading it's also meant as an echo of the sapphire knight winning the heart of the Amethyst Empress. 

Seduction and deception are not exactly distant concepts, so it's natural to see both in the same story. But I think the main idea, with Loras's armor and with Bael the Bard, is seduction. (Bael is still a crappy, dishonorable dude, of course, using seduction in the worst way, while I believe the SSE truly loved the AE, more similar to how Rhaegar loved Lyanna.)

Agree with a lot of this--though the seduction we've seen by Bael figures so far (Bael himself getting into Winterfell, Bael-ish and Sansa) has been fairly fraught with deception. Which is Bael's second name. The stealer's "love" for the Stark maid would be easier to work with if Ygritte hadn't slapped that disclaimer on the Tale. . . and if we could see the current Stark maids being stolen for love.

@Blind Beth the Cat Lady said: 

--No, just tracing the reiterating theme of Blood Betrayal. BSE's blood betrayal of the AE began the events of the Long Night. Joffrey's double-crossing of both Ned and Sansa (who both play aspects of the AE in the Baelor scene IMO, Sansa being the primary but Ned being the one who's murder kicks off a long, dark conflict) echoes this. Dance of Dragons and Blackfyre rebellions echo it as well to an extent. Lyanna and Rhagar play out the echoes again (a warrior, a maiden, blue roses, a baby, a usurper), except Lyanna is not outright murdered, but rather "betrayed" by her own literal blood inside her body during childbirth. (Or, who knows, I guess she might have been poisoned or something rather than dying just of childbirth complications. Maesters are sketchy af. But I think the parallel holds even if no one purposely killed Lyanna.)

I know that Lyanna as "killed" is possible. But on my first read, when I hit "bed of blood," I assumed all of my suspicions about Lyanna as Jon's mother were confirmed (Martin's really not subtle with all of that). So, I may be prejudiced by that first read, but I really think Lyanna died from childbirth complications.

And I agree some of the blood betrayal seems to be replayed in Lyanna. Per the OP, I do think Rhaegar got her/sent her to safety somehow (follow Sansa--she even spends time in an unnamed tower). Got her away from the people who intended to hurt her--but her death happened anyway. Almost like it had to happen. . . 

@Blind Beth the Cat Lady said: 

 

So, as I see the human elements of the Long Night playing out: Opal Emperor has five children, 4 legitimate and 1 bastard. These children correlate with the most common colors of an opal: green, purple, blue, red, gold. They become known to history as Garth Greenhand, the Amethyst Empress, Symeon Star-Eyes, the Bloodstone Emperor, and Lann the Clever. Garth is supposed to be the heir, but he is a total hippie and abdicates to go be the fertility deity of Westeros. This brings succession into question. For reasons I won't get into right now, I think AE and SSE are twins, with AE being a few minutes older. Thus OE declares she will succeed him. Because 1) having a twin brother around is likely to cause succession issues, with people rebelling and declaring for the brother and 2) AE and SSE's Very Close Relationship is not ok in Dawnia--SSE goes away to Westeros, where he hones his knightly prowess and ice magic abilities (like reflective ice armor: see Serwyn of the Mirror Shield). 

Meanwhile BSE is jealous of AE, thinks he should rule instead of her (for whatever reason). After OE dies, he makes his move and Blood Betrayal ensues. But at the moment of her death AE wargs into her dragon, flies to Westeros (this is subtext of Dany's fever dream). Before he left, AE had ancestral sword Dawn split, giving him half--this is the story of Ser Galadon and Just Maid. BSE wants the sword, perhaps also a permanent end to AE. Garth is like "um no I'm the king around here buddy, go home." So BSE challenges, then treacherously kills him (this echoed by Stanis's killing of Renly). SSE goes north to rally troops, enlists help of a contentious warg family who will become the Starks (this is when SSE sees the "hellhounds" fighting.) 

Epic war between BSE and SSE ensues, with BSE mainly using fire magic and SSE ice magic. This is the on-the-ground conflict of the Long Night (while LmL's astronomy stuff happens above). War wears on, and on, and on, for a generation. Eventually Azor Ahai super charges his sword (aka AE's half of Dawn) with Nissa Nissa's heart to make an end to SSE. Azor Ahai may be a recasting of BSE, or BSE's son, or possibly SSE&AE's son, raised as BSE's son (this would incorporate more Bael the Bard echoes.) 

Meanwhile Last Hero/Bran the Builder decides this has all gotten out of hand, goes to CotF for a solution. Which is the wall. All of this wraps up with Team Ice being given Beyond the Wall and Team Fire getting everything else. Neutral humans and CotF can pass on both sides. SSE definitely and AA probably dead by the end. (SSE may be the "monster" whose body boiled and melted when stabbed by Lightbringer.) But because Team Fire came out on top, SSE is remembered only as a dark figure, cast as the Great Other by the followers of Azor Ahai, while AA himself is cast only as a hero. 

Night's King & Queen try to revive their Team Ice heritage, but memory of the war is fresh and no one wants that happening again, no matter how unfairly it might have ended.

Interesting and very cool stuff.

1. I like the idea of multiple swords. But I think Dawn is a whole, complete thing. Would be one way to explain why AA was pursuing a stronger sword--was trying to "copy" or "overcome" the original sword. Did it via blood sacrifice. Vs. the story of the Just Maid--a sword that's a gift based on love an worth.

We don't know how the Sword of the Morning is chosen yet. But it sounds like the family chooses--and if no one's good enough, the sword waits at Starfall until the next Sword of the Morning shall rise. Any chance the pale swords the kings Dany sees in her "vision" are multiple swords instead of just one? 

2. Very much like the idea of the enlisting the unruly Stark Wargs. The World Book has the passing mention of a tribe of Children who've allied with the Warg King. That the Starks put them down. As though all sorts of magics can get out of balance. And would tie in with why the Starks are singled out as protecting Winterfell and the Wall--they were in it from the beginning. 

I have plenty of garbled theories on the matter, too--that the Starks screwed up. One of them was part of the problem--like the Night's King. Was put down in Winterfell. Which is why the Starks must stay--living and dead--to protect it. Like the knight who learns and re-engages in the true way--protection of the weak. (That may have been me trying to hard to get back on track).

Will need to let the rest of this percolate a bit.

[Sly Wren]

I'm short on time, but I will just say that the NK was a sacrifice too. He gave his seed and soul to the NK, probably to make pale shadows.

Agreed--a sacrifice of self for power. Very much like Stannis

especially with the likely eventual sacrifice of Shireen coming up. First time reading about that kid, I was very worried. And it hasn't gotten better. Though I am thinking her sacrifice may be more a consequence of what Stannis has done--enabling Selyse and Mel--than his doing it himself. Stopping tangent now.

And like Craster.

I tend to identify archetypes by their raw symbols, not their specific intent as you do, which is why we kind of aren't speaking the same language. The NK was a warrior without fear, dressed in black, who loved an icy moon maiden, and whose love for that moon maiden led to his being a sacrifice, his "dynasty" torn down, and his name shamed in history. Rhaegar fits all of those things. Lyanna is the icy moon maiden. Rhaegar wears black armor. He fearlessly declared that he must become a warrior, and then took on the head of the rebellion one on one. His love for his moon maiden led to his sacrifice. His dynasty was torn down.

1. On the symbol reading--that is where we get tripped up with each other, isn't it? For the record, I do think I understand why you read the more general points vs. the context. And many myths are based more on the broad strokes.

For my part, reading symbols innately within context is tied to a lot of my background in history and lit. Symbols mean nothing without context--a pawn or a knight mean nothing more than, "oh! cool little ceramic things!" if you have no idea what chess is. And can change a lot based on context--Christian crosses meant VERY different things to different groups during the Crusades. And thus get used differently to understand the texts written at the time.

All of which you know. For my money, it's hard to get symbols to tell readers anything if the context isn't considered. The echoes and symbols become so broad, it's hard to discern where things are going in relation to the specific plot as well as broader myths. But the broader myths are key to any symbol and meaning system--no doubt.

Jon's parallel with the Others simply equates the children of both unions, since the NK and NQ were (IMO) making Others. 

The reason why Jon is the most popular candidate for AA reborn is because he fits the AA archetype, which I call the black dragon. At least, that's one of the main aspects of it. Stannis also matches AA reborn symbolism, but also NK symbolism. And I have always wondered if that is because AA = NK. I'm seeing both symbolism in Rhaegar, and probably Jon too. Mel is a perfect fire moon maiden, just as Lyanna, Sansa, and the NQ are perfect ice moon maidens. 

As to Sansa making Others - of course not, lol. You're taking it too literally and focusing on intent. The pattern is probably there because George is using Sansa to give us clues about the NQ. The NQ is the mystery here, not Sansa. Sansa's future will probably parallel the NQ / ice moon maiden archetype in some way, but that can come out any way George wants. It can be inverted, reversed, or it could just mean something a little different. Instead of making Others, perhaps she is the one to continue the line of House Stark, the "knights" (warriors) of the North. That would still fit the symbolism, but the result is much happier. And I don't think Rhaegar and the NK have to have the same motive - it can be different to suit their individual stories. But I just listed seven parallels between them, and that's without using Stannis as evidence to indicate NK and AA are part of the same archetype. 

Also, if I am right that AA = the Bloodstone Emperor, who was a dark sorcerer king who caused the LN and not the hero who ended it, then who was Azor Ahai but the King of the Long Night? The Night's King? 

1. If I'm reading this right, you are asserting that there can be "positive" or "constructive" versions of the myths and symbol vs. the "destructive"ones? If so, we may be closer on this than I'd thought. I

2. I agree that all of the above have aspects of the moon maiden, AA, and other archetypes you listed. So, the question is, do you think the intent and context in which they are presented is tied to where the characters and/or plot is going?

Anyone interested in the subject of Rhaegar's armor and rubies should google Edward of Woodstock.

Yup! The Black Prince's armor and black-fielded heraldry often gets misinterpreted as "he was a black-hearted prince!" Though Edward was far from being a fluffy kitten of sweetness. 

But I'm not following you on the rubies re: Edward. Any chance you'd be willing to elaborate?

[J. Stargaryen]

Yup! The Black Prince's armor and black-fielded heraldry often gets misinterpreted as "he was a black-hearted prince!" Though Edward was far from being a fluffy kitten of sweetness. 

But I'm not following you on the rubies re: Edward. Any chance you'd be willing to elaborate?

The Black Prince's Ruby is one of the Crown Jewel's of the UK, and is front and center on the Imperial State Crown. Images.

So, the ruby is one of the lasting legacies of the Black Prince. Sort of like Rhaegar's rubies, which fell from his black armor.

Fwiw, it is not actually a ruby, but a spinel, which is a different type of red gem. But that distinction is relatively modern. Also, it is believed by some to be cursed.

 

 

[LmL]

Agreed--a sacrifice of self for power. Very much like Stannis

Hidden Content

And like Craster.

1. On the symbol reading--that is where we get tripped up with each other, isn't it? For the record, I do think I understand why you read the more general points vs. the context. And many myths are based more on the broad strokes.

For my part, reading symbols innately within context is tied to a lot of my background in history and lit. Symbols mean nothing without context--a pawn or a knight mean nothing more than, "oh! cool little ceramic things!" if you have no idea what chess is. And can change a lot based on context--Christian crosses meant VERY different things to different groups during the Crusades. And thus get used differently to understand the texts written at the time.

All of which you know. For my money, it's hard to get symbols to tell readers anything if the context isn't considered. The echoes and symbols become so broad, it's hard to discern where things are going in relation to the specific plot as well as broader myths. But the broader myths are key to any symbol and meaning system--no doubt.

1. If I'm reading this right, you are asserting that there can be "positive" or "constructive" versions of the myths and symbol vs. the "destructive"ones? If so, we may be closer on this than I'd thought. I

2. I agree that all of the above have aspects of the moon maiden, AA, and other archetypes you listed. So, the question is, do you think the intent and context in which they are presented is tied to where the characters and/or plot is going?

 

Ok, so we are getting closer here. Very interesting to hear about your background, btw.

So I would put it like this: the broad pattern (the archetype) vs the context of a specific incarnation or echo of the archetype are just two levels of classification, two levels of specificity. Saying someone is playing AA reborn is like saying something is a tree. Analyzing Jon vs Stannis is like saying "that's a deciduous tree, that's a conifer." Compared to a rock, a bird, or a toothbrush, two different kinds of trees both fit the same "tree archetype," but compared to one another, we find very important differences.   

So in other words, yes, if the Azor Ahai archetype is a tree, we could get trees with poisonous fruits or nourishing fruits. When Azor Ahai "stabs" the moonmaid, that can also be impregnation. Murdering a moonmaid - throwing her from a tower (Lysa), slathering her across the face (Myrcella), or almost beheading her (Ygritte) fits the same broad pattern as impregnating her, which perpetuates life. That's because George has structured the Lightbringer myth as a dual ended sword, a two-sided coin. He seems to be very into the concept of a person's shadow, so you could think about each archetype having a shadow version, and inverted version. If Azor Ahai is the bright solar king archetype, the Bloodstone Emperor represents the dark solar king, the inversion of the solar qualities of warmth and light. That's what's going on with the Lion of Night / Maiden made of Light thing - the bright and dark face of the sun. It's a concept taken from alchemy, for the most part. They saw the lion as the bright sun and the dragon as the sun's shadow self. George seems to be running with that, and that's why I keep finding indications that Azor Ahai was an inverted solar king, a black dragon, and all the things which fit the category of Lightbringer or AA reborn - which are essentially part of each other, the same thing really - are black dragons or black blooded shadows, stuff like that. Drogon, Jon, dead baby Rhaego, Beric, Valyrian steel, the black meteors... anyway. I digress.  

The point is the broad pattern - any of them - can manifest in various ways, on a range of pleasant to horrific. That way, George can use the same master patterns to make individual stories that are tailored to that character's plot. Otherwise, it would all be too repetitive and shallow. The action wouldn't be organic - he'd be making characters do unnatural things to fit patterns and whatnot. Instead, he's very clever about fitting in symbols. He might use someone's quick memory, or a passerby that's almost invisible in the narrative to slip a symbol in. He moves things around, etc. That's why we all twist in the wind trying to figure out what is paralleling what and to what extent. Jon's AA dream is a great example of this. He needs to fit the pattern of this murderous, usurping Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai, so George makes him DREAM about doing awful things which fit the pattern - because he wouldn't really do those things, as we agree. But the fact Jon wouldn't really kill Robb or Ygritte doesn't negate the presence of the pattern - burning red sword, murdering your love, usurping your sibling, etc. The pattern is there, regardless of the context. The context actually does not matter at all for the sake of establishing the presence of the archetype. It doesn't matter what kind of tree it is - all we are doing is pointing and saying "tree." 

So, as for the two levels of classification, the broad pattern and the specific manifestation, I kind of think about them as different hats to wear, different modes to think in.  When I am looking for the archetype, I don't worry too much about context - I read the scene as raw symbolism, identify the pattern. "Is this a Night's King pattern?" etc. After I have identified several Night's King players, I play comparative mythology with them. I look for the commonalities, and look for the differences. Different things can be learned from each, of course. Then, when I want to figure out what it means for a specific person to be a NK player, then I look at their arc, their decision making, their track record, all the stuff which you naturally focus on. So really, it all depends on the question you're asking. I am usually trying to ask questions about the Dawn Age archetypes, and trying to figure out the astronomical correlations of the Dawn Age archetypes. Those are like the master templates, so this is really the easiest and clearest question to ask. They are the easiest to piece together. When we are asking what Lyanna did, who is but one incarnation of an archetype... it's trickier. Does she copy this echo of Sansa, or Arya, or anyone else? Or is this a variation? I think without a clear idea of the regional Dawn Age archetype, it's harder to answer these questions. If we know the original template, it's easier to figure out which variations are just changes for an individual plot, and which variations are a new piece of info about the archetype.

Let me stop talking abstractly. The AA archetype is the biggest one, and the one I have spent the most time on. There are all these different aspects of this archetype - the Lightning Lord, the Black Dragon, the One-Eyed Seer, the Sword of the Evening, etc etc.  These are my working titles, fwiw. So take Beric. He's got a flaming sword, and he's undergone fire transformation. Those are trademark AA features. He's also got a starry cloak - that's Bloodstone Emperor - and he's undead - and the BSE practiced necromancy. He's got the one eye wound that Jon, Bloodraven, Jamie, and even Hodor get, because george is pulling Odin ideas into this archetype. But then... he sits in a weirwood throne, basically. So WTF - is this just a Beric thing? Or is being a greenseer part of the AA archetype? Well, think about it as a mix of fire magic and old gods magic. Beric is doing it, worshipping R'hllor in a weirwood cave, and consulting with the GOTHH. Jon is Stark and Targ, fire magic and old gods magic. Bloodraven too, Targ and First Men. Dragon blood and greenseer. Even Dany, if you count her Blackwood blood. Then we have the idea that the greenseers dropped the Hammer of the Waters... but I have become convinced the Hammer was a moon meteor. And Azor Ahai broke the moon, as the story says. So, if AA is a greenseer, then these stories both have a piece of the truth, and that's what George usually does, in my experience. 

We can take this knowledge and apply it back to Dany and Jon, AA reborn manifestations. We should be looking for Jon to potentially wield fire magic and greenseer magic, and we can speculate on ways that could make sense with his plot. The idea that Dany as an AA reborn should have some FM or greenseer ideas about her makes us look harder at a few things. Her Blackwood blood, for one. The idea that the dragon bond is a mutated form of the skinchanger bond, two. If you like crack and tinfoil pipes, then maybe Dany is half Stark or something absurd. We can probably rule that last one out, it doesn't make sense. You follow me? 

George likes to find ways to fit both versions of a pattern at once. Consider "stealing" a women. Women in the north want to be stolen, by a strong man. Jon almost kills Ygritte, giving us that side of the myth, but falls in love with her instead, giving us the procreative aspect. When the sun cracked the moon, the moon was said to "kiss" the sun. Sex and swordplay, fucking and fighting. Two sides of the bloody sword.

Getting back to Sansa, I personally find her to be of very high character and increasing wisdom. I definitely don't think she'll be doing anything dastardly, and probably not anything overly magical. So for her NQ parallels, making snow knights, it could be what you said - she forms an order of knights, or organizes resistance in the north, gathering snowy northern warriors to her, or my idea about her being the main propagator of House Stark... or maybe the Vale, with all the snowy imagery, it could work. You see what I mean? The patterns are flexible, imo.

Now, I'll give you, most of the bards we meet are first rate assholes. That's true, and it raises a suspicion about Rhaegar, certainly. But here's the thing about Arya and Sansa paralleling Lyanna - neither one has had sex yet, so we can't be seeing any perfect parallels of her conception of Jon Snow. All we can see is suggestions - people trying to f*ck Sansa, for example. A singer tries to f*ck her, and someone named "Bael-ish," as has been pointed out. That alone says there's a pattern of singers and wolf maids f*cking. I'm sure, eventually, Sansa will probably bed down with someone who resembles Rhaegar in some fashion.  But unit she does, we can only get suggestions and almost-f*cks. Obviously Arya cannot show us who Lyanna f*cked, except by very toned down versions. 

Last thing is this - in the astronomy layer, the sun and moon kill each other. The sun kills the moon with his comet sword, but the moon explodes and blots out the sun. That's why the NQ sucks the NK seed and soul - a woman was his downfall. Rhaegar's woman was his downfall, but I doubt Lyanna did any malicious souls sucking - it doesn't fit her character, as you would point out. In his case, Rhaegar's actions based on his feelings for Lyanna brought his downfall, as with the NK.  You might also reverse the logic, and ask if our icy moon maidens continue to be paragons of virtue, we might start asking the question if the NQ was really as sister as she sounds, or as sinister as Mel seems to be.      

Sorry that was so long. Just respond to whatever strikes a chord. You don't have to hit everything. It's fun to talk meta though, I always love that.

ETA: If the AA reborn archetype is the dark solar king, the lion of night and the black dragon, etc, then what Jon needs to do is turn the solar king bright again. He needs to flip the archetype back to the bright face of the sun. That probably means a course of self sacrifice instead of killing a woman to make a sword.  But who knows, maybe we'll get all of the above. You take my meaning though - Jon is being shown the horrible path of AA, and it's his job to figure out how to avoid it, or make sense of it.  

[shmewdog]

Sly Wren, I agree with you that there is a "true knight" trope within the story that Martin is exploring, and that Jaime, Brienne, and Sandor are the primary characters within the trope.  Sandor is certainly within the trope, and though he believes that there are no true knights, he certainly holds onto the ideals of a true knight even though he refuses to admit it.  He is too cynical from his past experiences to admit it, but in his youth he almost certainly held these ideals.  I personally believe that he is lying to himself.  He still holds these ideals deep inside him, but they are buried deep within his "Hound" persona.  This persona is how he copes with the events that happen in the world and how he would like others to perceive him, just as Jaime likes to be perceived as an honorless Kingslayer, although deep inside he loathes his reputation as such.  It's a defense mechanism for dealing with how society treats him.

Although I believe that Brienne holds more similarity with Dunk than Arthur Dayne.  She can never truly be a knight because of her gender, at least according to the traditional standards.  But I believe that her ideals and her resolve technically surpass society's ideals and I do hold her to be a truer knight than any other living knight we have encountered so far in the story.  After all, it's all about upholding the oaths that she swore.

 

I think that you have done a good analysis and I look forward to you expanding your analysis as more information becomes available to us.  Kudos on some good research.

 

[Isobel Harper]

Really enjoying the discussion, as I always do in Sly Wren threads.  

A couple of things I've noted.  First, regarding Rhaegar's AA parallel: Note that Rhaenys and Aegon parallel the first two unsuccessful forging of Lightbringer.  If Elia had had a third child, the birth was said to have killed her, just as the third forging of Lightbringer killed Nissa Nissa.  Rhaegar's motivation for running of with Lyanna (in addition romantic, prophetic, and possibly political motivation) was to circumvent the prophecy by having this third LB-child with another woman.  He had hoped to forge a LB-child without sacrificing his wife.  (Although, as we know, this partially part of the prophecy could not be circumvented: both of his "wives" died.)

Second, there's a possible parallel between Hammer of the Waters and Lord of the Waters.  WoW spoiler:

Like the Hammer of the Waters, Aurane Waters "The Lord of the Waters" could play a role in keeping Essos (i.e. Daenerys) out of Westeros via the Stepstones.  I'll try not to go too off topic with this, but I believe his fate in Winds is to side with Aegon.  Also, Queen Cersei (the largest of the ships?) is described in relation to Robert's Hammer, another (albeit small) echo of Hammer of the Waters.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

I definitely have other thoughts/responses, but I wanted to say something quickly. I'm not sure how much we should compare Bael/Stark maid to Baelish/Sansa. The element of successful seduction is totally absent from Sansa and Baelish's relationship. Yes, he has falsely earned her trust (to an extent) and absconded with her, but in terms of Sansa losing her heart to him--even in the most shallow terms--we get a big "nope." 

Seduction doesn't necessarily have anything to do with true love and does not in any way require pure motives. Much like knighthood, it may be true or false. However, for it to be considered seduction it does have to inspire some amount of fluttery feelings (however hormone-induced or temporary) in the object of the seduction. Both Joff and Loras seduce Sansa, Joff for reasons you can only understand if you've been a boy-crazy 13yo, and Loras purely by accident. (Well, Sansa specifically by accident. He was aiming to be a generally chivalric/seductive figure, just not aiming at Sansa per se.) Petyr Baelish does not.

Therefore the pattern of warrior figure winning the heart of a maid does not apply to the pair of them, much as Baelish might want it to. Baelish is never even framed as a warrior figure in relation to Sansa, in fact he actively avoids conflict at all cost. (Wheras Bael certainly has warrior qualities, as a raider and antagonist to the Starks. Note that warrior qualities don't have to be positive.)

WoW spoiler:

If anything the pattern is backwards: rather than causing Sansa's death by seducing her. in the WoW spoiler chapter Baelish is likely ensuring her survival by teaching her to seduce.

If Baelish has Bael the Bard parallels, it's with Lysa/Cat: he frames himself as a warrior figure fighting for Cat's hand, seduces Lysa (to the horror of her father, just like in Bael tale), impregnates her, and is even the eventual cause of her death.

 

 

If my #C theory about Azor Ahai is true--that he was the son of AE&SSE raised as son of BSE--then Petyr's relationship to Sansa, ie. causing the death of her mother, stealing her, changing her identity, trying to mold her to his own ideals--frames him more as a BSE figure than a sapphire knight/warrior/seducer of maids figure. Which may be a bit concerning regarding Sansa's possible future meeting with parent unCat or sapphire knight Brienne.

(PS I am starting to see AA as being in truth a mixed ice&fire figure, matching him even more neatly with Jon both in terms of heritage and Jon's dream of being armored in ice holding a flaming sword. Which which in turn links back to the idea of AA having the knight of ice & sapphires as one parent. And that links neatly with Sansa, too--with her icy Stark and kissed-by-fire Tully heritage; also much is made of her wearing a red-and-blue dress in Feast.)

 

(Ok this wasn't that quick...sorry, lol.)

[Sly Wren]

The Black Prince's Ruby is one of the Crown Jewel's of the UK, and is front and center on the Imperial State Crown. Images.

So, the ruby is one of the lasting legacies of the Black Prince. Sort of like Rhaegar's rubies, which fell from his black armor.

Fwiw, it is not actually a ruby, but a spinel, which is a different type of red gem. But that distinction is relatively modern. Also, it is believed by some to be cursed.

Interesting--especially the backstory on the gem.

Though, considering the bolded, if this is where Martin is going, this might not bode well for those who found the rubies. . . . 

[Sly Wren]

Ok, so we are getting closer here. Very interesting to hear about your background, btw.

So I would put it like this: the broad pattern (the archetype) vs the context of a specific incarnation or echo of the archetype are just two levels of classification, two levels of specificity. Saying someone is playing AA reborn is like saying something is a tree. Analyzing Jon vs Stannis is like saying "that's a deciduous tree, that's a conifer." Compared to a rock, a bird, or a toothbrush, two different kinds of trees both fit the same "tree archetype," but compared to one another, we find very important differences.   

1. So in other words, yes, if the Azor Ahai archetype is a tree, we could get trees with poisonous fruits or nourishing fruits. When Azor Ahai "stabs" the moonmaid, that can also be impregnation. Murdering a moonmaid - throwing her from a tower (Lysa), slathering her across the face (Myrcella), or almost beheading her (Ygritte) fits the same broad pattern as impregnating her, which perpetuates life. That's because George has structured the Lightbringer myth as a dual ended sword, a two-sided coin. He seems to be very into the concept of a person's shadow, so you could think about each archetype having a shadow version, and inverted version. If Azor Ahai is the bright solar king archetype, the Bloodstone Emperor represents the dark solar king, the inversion of the solar qualities of warmth and light. That's what's going on with the Lion of Night / Maiden made of Light thing - the bright and dark face of the sun. It's a concept taken from alchemy, for the most part. They saw the lion as the bright sun and the dragon as the sun's shadow self. George seems to be running with that, and that's why I keep finding indications that Azor Ahai was an inverted solar king, a black dragon, and all the things which fit the category of Lightbringer or AA reborn - which are essentially part of each other, the same thing really - are black dragons or black blooded shadows, stuff like that. Drogon, Jon, dead baby Rhaego, Beric, Valyrian steel, the black meteors... anyway. I digress.  

2. The point is the broad pattern - any of them - can manifest in various ways, on a range of pleasant to horrific. That way, George can use the same master patterns to make individual stories that are tailored to that character's plot. Otherwise, it would all be too repetitive and shallow. The action wouldn't be organic - he'd be making characters do unnatural things to fit patterns and whatnot. Instead, he's very clever about fitting in symbols. He might use someone's quick memory, or a passerby that's almost invisible in the narrative to slip a symbol in. He moves things around, etc. That's why we all twist in the wind trying to figure out what is paralleling what and to what extent. Jon's AA dream is a great example of this. He needs to fit the pattern of this murderous, usurping Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai, so George makes him DREAM about doing awful things which fit the pattern - because he wouldn't really do those things, as we agree. But the fact Jon wouldn't really kill Robb or Ygritte doesn't negate the presence of the pattern - burning red sword, murdering your love, usurping your sibling, etc. The pattern is there, regardless of the context. The context actually does not matter at all for the sake of establishing the presence of the archetype. It doesn't matter what kind of tree it is - all we are doing is pointing and saying "tree." 

So, as for the two levels of classification, the broad pattern and the specific manifestation, I kind of think about them as different hats to wear, different modes to think in.  #3. When I am looking for the archetype, I don't worry too much about context - I read the scene as raw symbolism, identify the pattern. "Is this a Night's King pattern?" etc. After I have identified several Night's King players, I play comparative mythology with them. I look for the commonalities, and look for the differences. Different things can be learned from each, of course. Then, when I want to figure out what it means for a specific person to be a NK player, then I look at their arc, their decision making, their track record, all the stuff which you naturally focus on. So really, it all depends on the question you're asking. I am usually trying to ask questions about the Dawn Age archetypes, and trying to figure out the astronomical correlations of the Dawn Age archetypes. Those are like the master templates, so this is really the easiest and clearest question to ask. They are the easiest to piece together. When we are asking what Lyanna did, who is but one incarnation of an archetype... it's trickier. Does she copy this echo of Sansa, or Arya, or anyone else? Or is this a variation? I think without a clear idea of the regional Dawn Age archetype, it's harder to answer these questions. If we know the original template, it's easier to figure out which variations are just changes for an individual plot, and which variations are a new piece of info about the archetype.

1. Yes--we are getting closer.

2. On the bolded sections above: I agree with the idea of broad archetypes and that they have different manifestations. That works not just in Martin, but in most cultures. On the second bolded (#2)--absolutely.

On the first bolded (#1)--the problem comes with making it too broad (a terrible pun considering the subject matter--sorry). Swords do have the double-edged element to them in Martin. But they don't always mean new life or perpetuating life, even in the examples you gave above. They can lead to new life with moon-maids. But also--not. So. . . seems like there's a danger of too broad (sorry) of strokes at times.

On the third bolded (#3)--I agree on looking for the pattern. But, once identified, has to be compared to the context to see if it fits. If the specific context doesn't fit with the general pattern--seems like that's grounds for adjusting the assumption off the pattern.

IE: Your Sansa example: 

Getting back to Sansa, I personally find her to be of very high character and increasing wisdom. I definitely don't think she'll be doing anything dastardly, and probably not anything overly magical. So for her NQ parallels, making snow knights, it could be what you said - she forms an order of knights, or organizes resistance in the north, gathering snowy northern warriors to her, or my idea about her being the main propagator of House Stark... or maybe the Vale, with all the snowy imagery, it could work. You see what I mean? The patterns are flexible, imo.

 I agree that the patterns are flexible. But, when you look at what she's doing in the context of the scene--what she's dreaming about before going into the garden, what she's remembering about Winterfell and the snow fight with Arya and Bran, the way that castle pours out of her, how she names the taste of the snow as "the taste of Winterfell" and "warm as lover's kisses"--that kind of specificity seems to limit the flexibility of the imagery a bit. She's rebuilding her home, reasserting herself as a Stark. Using her snow castle against the Bael-ish who stole her. 

I do think she is likely to end up the propagator of House Stark in many ways. In that sense, kind of an Anti-Night's Queen: not tempting the Lord Commander away from his rightful protection of the North. But rebuilding and reasserting the protection of the North asserted by Winterfell and the Starks. 

Would that fit with your idea of reverse sides to archetypes?

 

Let me stop talking abstractly. The AA archetype is the biggest one, and the one I have spent the most time on. There are all these different aspects of this archetype - the Lightning Lord, the Black Dragon, the One-Eyed Seer, the Sword of the Evening, etc etc.  These are my working titles, fwiw. So take Beric. He's got a flaming sword, and he's undergone fire transformation. Those are trademark AA features. He's also got a starry cloak - that's Bloodstone Emperor - and he's undead - and the BSE practiced necromancy. He's got the one eye wound that Jon, Bloodraven, Jamie, and even Hodor get, because george is pulling Odin ideas into this archetype. But then... he sits in a weirwood throne, basically. So WTF - is this just a Beric thing? Or is being a greenseer part of the AA archetype? Well, think about it as a mix of fire magic and old gods magic. Beric is doing it, worshipping R'hllor in a weirwood cave, and consulting with the GOTHH. Jon is Stark and Targ, fire magic and old gods magic. Bloodraven too, Targ and First Men. Dragon blood and greenseer. Even Dany, if you count her Blackwood blood. Then we have the idea that the greenseers dropped the Hammer of the Waters... but I have become convinced the Hammer was a moon meteor. And Azor Ahai broke the moon, as the story says. So, if AA is a greenseer, then these stories both have a piece of the truth, and that's what George usually does, in my experience. 

We can take this knowledge and apply it back to Dany and Jon, AA reborn manifestations. We should be looking for Jon to potentially wield fire magic and greenseer magic, and we can speculate on ways that could make sense with his plot. The idea that Dany as an AA reborn should have some FM or greenseer ideas about her makes us look harder at a few things. Her Blackwood blood, for one. The idea that the dragon bond is a mutated form of the skinchanger bond, two. If you like crack and tinfoil pipes, then maybe Dany is half Stark or something absurd. We can probably rule that last one out, it doesn't make sense. You follow me?

 

I agree on a lot of this--though I'm less sold than I used to be re: Jon as Targaryen. 

On Beric--sort of back to the OP--he's not just AAish; he's also a good knight fallen and innately corrupted. The lack of humanity undermines his ability to "knight" (I'm going to pretend that's a verb). I'd also add that the purple lightning might tie into the Daynes--white sword on purple. Lightning had sword qualities. Throw in the white stars and the betrothal to Ashara and Edric as squire--the Lightning Lord seems like an echo of a true knight. That Sansa doesn't recognize at first, but sees later when praying for help in the godswood. But is corrupted by the good intentions of fire magic gone horribly awry. 

And on AA--I agree it's a big archetype, especially for Mel. But all of these old stories--especially the old prophecies--seem like games of telephone. Really seems like the actual way to defeat the Long Night might have gotten garbled into the Eastern and Asshai'i prophecies. That we should be looking not for eastern, fiery, dragon-based magics. But the "true men of the Watch"--those who hold true and guard the realms. Sworn brothers. Not fighting fire and ice. But dark into dawn.  . 

ETA: If the AA reborn archetype is the dark solar king, the lion of night and the black dragon, etc, then what Jon needs to do is turn the solar king bright again. He needs to flip the archetype back to the bright face of the sun. That probably means a course of self sacrifice instead of killing a woman to make a sword.  But who knows, maybe we'll get all of the above. You take my meaning though - Jon is being shown the horrible path of AA, and it's his job to figure out how to avoid it, or make sense of it.  

Yes--this is closer to what I'm thinking. The Long Night is the problem, not ice vs. fire. The Targs seem to have made things worse by messing with the Wall, the Watch, and the Starks. The true enemy is the darkness. . . .

So--my free-thinking association answer to yours, ser. Play at will!

[Sly Wren]

Really enjoying the discussion, as I always do in Sly Wren threads.

 

A couple of things I've noted.  First, regarding Rhaegar's AA parallel: Note that Rhaenys and Aegon parallel the first two unsuccessful forging of Lightbringer.

Possible--but if Rhaegar thought (hypothetically) that he needed three children, then he wasn't aiming for just one child. And they don't fail against the "trial" like the first forgings fail. . . 

 If Elia had had a third child, the birth was said to have killed her, just as the third forging of Lightbringer killed Nissa Nissa.  Rhaegar's motivation for running of with Lyanna (in addition romantic, prophetic, and possibly political motivation) was to circumvent the prophecy by having this third LB-child with another woman.  He had hoped to forge a LB-child without sacrificing his wife.  (Although, as we know, this partially part of the prophecy could not be circumvented: both of his "wives" died.)

Possible--though, as I said to @LmL above, I'm less sold than I used to be on Jon's being Targaryen. Let alone on why Rhaegar took Lyanna. 

That said, the idea that a person needs to be metaphorically forged and tried to bring forth the effective warrior/weapon--yeah, that metaphor I can buy.

Second, there's a possible parallel between Hammer of the Waters and Lord of the Waters.  WoW spoiler:

Like the Hammer of the Waters, Aurane Waters "The Lord of the Waters" could play a role in keeping Essos (i.e. Daenerys) out of Westeros via the Stepstones.  I'll try not to go too off topic with this, but I believe his fate in Winds is to side with Aegon.  Also, Queen Cersei (the largest of the ships?) is described in relation to Robert's Hammer, another (albeit small) echo of Hammer of the Waters.

Very interesting.  . .I'm not sure how we can discuss this unless we keep it in spoilers, but I think the above is a definite possibility.

On the ships--are you drawing the parallel off the names mostly, or also on the idea of history's frequently repeating itself in the novels?

[Sly Wren]

Sly Wren, I agree with you that there is a "true knight" trope within the story that Martin is exploring, and that Jaime, Brienne, and Sandor are the primary characters within the trope.  Sandor is certainly within the trope, and though he believes that there are no true knights, he certainly holds onto the ideals of a true knight even though he refuses to admit it.  He is too cynical from his past experiences to admit it, but in his youth he almost certainly held these ideals.  I personally believe that he is lying to himself.  He still holds these ideals deep inside him, but they are buried deep within his "Hound" persona.  This persona is how he copes with the events that happen in the world and how he would like others to perceive him, just as Jaime likes to be perceived as an honorless Kingslayer, although deep inside he loathes his reputation as such.  It's a defense mechanism for dealing with how society treats him.

 Yup! As a devout friend of mine used to insist, "you can't be angry in god and not believe in him."

Which isn't innately true, but applies to the Hound re: knights: he can't be this angry about the failure of knighthood if he didn't believe in the ideal, at least at some point. Jaime's regained his faith--largely via Brienne and his de-handing. But Sandor--will be interesting to see if/when we see him again if he's had a similar re-conversion.

And I think it ties into the defense of the Wall as well--belief in what they are doing. A lot of crises of faith at the Wall largely--Mel's wondering about her visions, Jon's contempt for the "bloody southron fools," Jon's previous crisis of faith trying to do what Qhorin ordered, and now the stabbing--the whole of the Watch is is for a rude awakening re: belief in the cause.

Although I believe that Brienne holds more similarity with Dunk than Arthur Dayne.  She can never truly be a knight because of her gender, at least according to the traditional standards.  But I believe that her ideals and her resolve technically surpass society's ideals and I do hold her to be a truer knight than any other living knight we have encountered so far in the story.  After all, it's all about upholding the oaths that she swore.

 When I say she echoes Arthur, I mean that--the echo in certain situations. Especially with Jaime--reminds him of who he wishes he was. And that echo, as well as Jaime's actually echoing two specific things we know Rhaegar did (vs. the myriad of things we don't know)--makes me suspect what I said in the OP re: sending/taking Lyanna away to safety with Arthur. 

And I agree re: Dunk. Especially with the stuff in Feast. The faithfulness, as you say, seems a key. 

I think that you have done a good analysis and I look forward to you expanding your analysis as more information becomes available to us.  Kudos on some good research.

 Thanks and welcome to the discussion!

[Sly Wren]

I definitely have other thoughts/responses, but I wanted to say something quickly. I'm not sure how much we should compare Bael/Stark maid to Baelish/Sansa. The element of successful seduction is totally absent from Sansa and Baelish's relationship. Yes, he has falsely earned her trust (to an extent) and absconded with her, but in terms of Sansa losing her heart to him--even in the most shallow terms--we get a big "nope." 

Agreed--re: Baelish. His connection--aside from the cutesy name game--is the rest of the tale: anger at an insult from a Brandon Stark. Deception (Bael's other name) to help him sidle up to the Stark in Winterfell. Then betrayal and taking the Stark maid a singer calls a rose--while she's dressed in blue. A child he now claims as his own--and the future heir of Winterfell. And, of course, the potential for future disaster--already begun with a woman flung from a tower.

Seduction doesn't necessarily have anything to do with true love and does not in any way require pure motives. Much like knighthood, it may be true or false. However, for it to be considered seduction it does have to inspire some amount of fluttery feelings (however hormone-induced or temporary) in the object of the seduction. Both Joff and Loras seduce Sansa, Joff for reasons you can only understand if you've been a boy-crazy 13yo, and Loras purely by accident. (Well, Sansa specifically by accident. He was aiming to be a generally chivalric/seductive figure, just not aiming at Sansa per se.) Petyr Baelish does not.

Therefore the pattern of warrior figure winning the heart of a maid does not apply to the pair of them, much as Baelish might want it to. Baelish is never even framed as a warrior figure in relation to Sansa, in fact he actively avoids conflict at all cost. (Wheras Bael certainly has warrior qualities, as a raider and antagonist to the Starks. Note that warrior qualities don't have to be positive.)

And if Ygritte hadn't slapped that disclaimer on the "love/seduction" part of the story, I'd be right there with you. But that is what Ygritte gives us--the love/seduction are not certain. The Maid herself isn't mentioned until after Bael takes her--she's the means to his end. Which fits what Martin gives us before we get to Ygritte's tale via Bael-ish. And what we get when we hear about and meet Mance.

When I re-read the Bael Tale, I was surprised by how much I'd assumed was in it that just isn't there. What the focus and context and content really were. The love story--as you say, that's what Sansa focuses on. But it's not the focus of the Bael Tale as given by Ygritte.

WoW spoiler:

If anything the pattern is backwards: rather than causing Sansa's death by seducing her. in the WoW spoiler chapter Baelish is likely ensuring her survival by teaching her to seduce.

Agreed--the echo of the tale isn't going straight--not a clean parallel. Any more than it did for Lyanna's death by baby, but Ashara's by tower. All that's left now is the death of the arrogant Bael-ish by his child--or the one he claimed as his child.

I do think Sansa's ability to echo her Auntie Lyanna is a unique one--she's already the dead wolf-maid via Lady. So, she can hypothetically play out other echoes without dying again--at least for a while.

If Baelish has Bael the Bard parallels, it's with Lysa/Cat: he frames himself as a warrior figure fighting for Cat's hand, seduces Lysa (to the horror of her father, just like in Bael tale), impregnates her, and is even the eventual cause of her death.

A good point--though, he only chucks Lysa once he's stolen a Stark/rose maid. The maid he's claiming as his child--a very creepy twist on the impregnation. 

If my #C theory about Azor Ahai is true--that he was the son of AE&SSE raised as son of BSE--then Petyr's relationship to Sansa, ie. causing the death of her mother, stealing her, changing her identity, trying to mold her to his own ideals--frames him more as a BSE figure than a sapphire knight/warrior/seducer of maids figure. Which may be a bit concerning regarding Sansa's possible future meeting with parent unCat or sapphire knight Brienne.

Very possible--and might tie in with Kingmonkey's assertion that the "ae" in "Bael" is an eastern/Valyrian/Targaryen reference. 

(PS I am starting to see AA as being in truth a mixed ice&fire figure, matching him even more neatly with Jon both in terms of heritage and Jon's dream of being armored in ice holding a flaming sword. Which which in turn links back to the idea of AA having the knight of ice & sapphires as one parent. And that links neatly with Sansa, too--with her icy Stark and kissed-by-fire Tully heritage; also much is made of her wearing a red-and-blue dress in Feast.)

Very cool--will have to let this mull a bit.

(Ok this wasn't that quick...sorry, lol.)

Hey, what's the point of a sandbox if you can't enjoy playing in it? Quick ain't the point.