LBGTQ - 4 out of 5 cats prefer lesbians

[Xray the Enforcer]

Coming out as non-binary has been...weird. I mean, most people don't have a problem with it. But they really can't wrap their heads around it either.

[TerraPrime]

6 hours ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

Coming out as non-binary has been...weird. I mean, most people don't have a problem with it. But they really can't wrap their heads around it either.

It's new, and it's not easy to understand for those who live and breathe binary gender. 

I confess that it takes me conscientious effort still to not default to binary gender/sex thinking. 

I hope the visibility of this issue will continue to increase. 

 

*hugs*

[Xray the Enforcer]

Thanks, Terra. One of the things I've recently struggled with was discussions around feminism and the like. I've been affected by sexism and misogyny, having been born with a (very obviously) female body, but recently it's been thornier when I speak with other feminists because of exclusion. For example, one of the other D&I cohort members has started an affinity group for female employees, but it also kinda pisses me off because they seem to be using (out of ignorance, not malice) a relatively restricted definition of "female." I mean, sure I'm invited because everyone assumes I'm cis-gendered until I correct them, but I guess I'm wondering if it's going to put other non-binary people off. And, lest one just tell me to join the LGBTQ+ affinity group -- I've done that, but my org has a really pernicious perception that only gay dudes are the "right" kind of LGBTQ+. Maybe that's where I need to focus my efforts...but you'll see that workplace sexism is TOTALLY wrapped up in there in only legitimizing the gay men, which then makes me think it's the women's affinity group that needs the support. Or both, I guess. It's bugging the shit out of me, though.

[Yukle]

16 hours ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

Coming out as non-binary has been...weird. I mean, most people don't have a problem with it. But they really can't wrap their heads around it either.

I wish that it was easier for you. From your perspective, is it better for people like me (who identify as straight) to be proactively inclusive? By that, I mean when I notice that someone in your position is not invited to the "female" groups you describe, to quietly either bring you along or simply insist to others that you come along?

I know that there's no one right answer as such.

[Theda Baratheon]

13 hours ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

Thanks, Terra. One of the things I've recently struggled with was discussions around feminism and the like. I've been affected by sexism and misogyny, having been born with a (very obviously) female body, but recently it's been thornier when I speak with other feminists because of exclusion. For example, one of the other D&I cohort members has started an affinity group for female employees, but it also kinda pisses me off because they seem to be using (out of ignorance, not malice) a relatively restricted definition of "female." I mean, sure I'm invited because everyone assumes I'm cis-gendered until I correct them, but I guess I'm wondering if it's going to put other non-binary people off. And, lest one just tell me to join the LGBTQ+ affinity group -- I've done that, but my org has a really pernicious perception that only gay dudes are the "right" kind of LGBTQ+. Maybe that's where I need to focus my efforts...but you'll see that workplace sexism is TOTALLY wrapped up in there in only legitimizing the gay men, which then makes me think it's the women's affinity group that needs the support. Or both, I guess. It's bugging the shit out of me, though.

Hmm. I notice this a lot, very strict definitions on what "female is" that are either totally excluding trans people or ignoring gender queer/non binary folks and a/bigender people. I think you'll come into contact with a lot of people totally not aware of even the IDEA of multiple gender identities outside male, female, transman, transwoman and I'm sorry about that I try my best to always be mindful of everyone but maybe it's because I've grown up very aware of everyone within the LGBTQ+ community.

 

[TerraPrime]

21 hours ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

 For example, one of the other D&I cohort members has started an affinity group for female employees, but it also kinda pisses me off because they seem to be using (out of ignorance, not malice) a relatively restricted definition of "female." I mean, sure I'm invited because everyone assumes I'm cis-gendered until I correct them, but I guess I'm wondering if it's going to put other non-binary people off. 

One issue, I think, is that the awareness of nontraditional gender identities really hasn't filtered through the rank and file just yet. Even in the LBGTQ community, we built our culture around binary genders. Also, lest we forget, we do have LBGTQ members who want binary genders and who identifies strongly with that paradigm. It will be a very hard process to negotiate the proper boundaries where we can respect both the binary-identifying and the non-binary folks in our community. I certainly don't have a clever solution for it. At this point, I think we just need to talk to each other more, and search for a consensus. 

 

Another issue, I think, is that non-binary gender individuals still need to coalesce and construct their political presence. I think like trans individuals, they will need to work hard to carve out a space for themselves in the larger alliance. The idea of non-binary is challenging and to most people, discomforting. It is going to create hostility when you try to upset the prevailing paradigm. So before we see improvement on the issue, those who do identify as non-binary will be stuck with doing most of the hard labor. :-(

 

Finally, I am sorry that your local LBGTQ group sucks so bad. :-(

[Erik of Hazelfield]

I just wanted to pop in here and say that I just recently started reading this thread and it's already made me think differently about how I view LGBTQ people, and nonbinaries in particular. I'm a straight white guy, as ignorant as they come, but reading your testimonies about the difficulties LGBTQ people face every day, the realization slowly dawns upon me that this is... for real, if you know what I mean. It's not about fancy parades or insisting on particular terminology being used - it's about facing ignorance, prejudice, hate or even laws preventing you from doing normal stuff that we straight people take for granted. 

Thanks for opening my eyes on this and keep on being awesome! 

[Lily Valley]

On 11/14/2016 at 2:32 AM, Sivin said:

You guys managed in a weekend what my shrinks have been failing at for a year. I bought a pair of Womens jeans, though results are inconclusive.

Unfortunately they did not fit, but because the were too large! Perhaps there is hope for me yet. 

I need to outfit myself with more information before attacking again, but the pants in question were a 31" inseam and 22W (I believe that is waist size measurement) 

The 31 " was at least 2 inches too long, and they were very baggy overall. Believe it or not, I am encouraged. For 25 bucks I found out that I am not completely unable to wear store bought clothes. Now it is just a matter of dialing in the appropriate sizes.

You all have my most sincere thanks.

Women's jeans are just really HARD.  When I find a style that fits I go ahead and get three or four pairs.  I just gained a bit of weight in my "muffin top" area.  This made me jump from a women's 4 to a women's 8.  HOW?!!!  It's seriously only about 5lbs.  Thing is, this season, they're doing a lot of women's jeans like spray paint, so I had go up an additional size for a reasonable fit.

Length can be tricky.  When I'm thrift store shopping I tend to buy anything that fits my ass and thighs and then roll the legs up if they're too short as that's usually my problem.  Thrift stores with a large selection of jeans can be a great place to try on a lot of different styles.  I pair these with boots and I'll admit it does make me look a bit like an ElfQuest extra, but it's comfortable and I feel good about how I look.

I'm really glad to hear you're finding some things to wear.  Also, you are NOT alone at finding women's fashion to be baffling.  Hang out anytime in the fashion thread and you'll be continuously affirmed that clothes are hard for a lot of us.

Good Luck!

X-ray,

I just gave myself whiplash re-reading your post.  I KNEW you identified as non-binary and somehow it just didn't register.   I think I have clung to the word "queer" for a very long time because it takes all the analysis out of a lot of very complicated identity issues for me.  I read you as "queer" when I met you.  I assumed that might have a whole box of stuff within it that was absolutely none of my business.

Congratulations on coming out, I'm sorry it's been so hard.  I wish you the best.  :hugs:

In the news here, as my neighborhood has gentrified, places I've traditionally gone out to be left alone have taken on more and more of a "meat market" vibe.  I put this down to my neighborhood having more strangers in it.  With the locals, I have established myself as cranky spinster with razors in her mouth.  As a result of this unpleasant change, I have spent more time in queer venues.  I am appreciating them more and more as I get older. 

It has simply become less and less tolerable to me to table my queerness just because it doesn't necessarily have an impact on my daily life.  Even these once a week outings to a gay bar to have a coffee or a drink give me enormous satisfaction.  I'm seen.  I'm acknowledged and this helps.  This place really helps too.  Thanks for being here everybody.

I am finding myself hungry for women-only spaces and am saddened that there's such a limited number to choose from here.  This in no way denigrates from the comfort and security I've found in places that used to be / still are queer men's spaces.   I have appreciated all of those places opening their arms to queer women.  It's just not as peaceful as lesbian bars or lesbian events are.  Getting to the women's events takes a lot more planning.  I have made a promise to myself to try to get out to a couple of them over the holidays. 

[karaddin]

Really with you on that Lily, I get quite frustrated with the situation here too.

X - I don't think I had consciously/explicitly realised either so now I just want to make sure by asking your preferred pronouns?

[Xray the Enforcer]

Thanks for all of the thoughtful responses. Apologies for not responding sooner -- I was visiting my parents and only had my phone with me. 

Re: pronoun preference -- thank you for asking. Right now I've decided to stick with feminine pronouns, for a bunch of reasons (some of which might actually belong in the feminism thread). My goal right now is to be more visible at work and with my friends -- I was talking to TerraPrime a few weeks ago and lamenting how much I was suffering from erasure...in a way that I'd never actually experienced before. Like, I've known I'm unusually gendered since I was a kid, but why is it now an issue in my 40s? So, it's been a weird journey inside my head this past year.

[TerraPrime]

3 hours ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

I was talking to TerraPrime a few weeks ago and lamenting how much I was suffering from erasure...in a way that I'd never actually experienced before. Like, I've known I'm unusually gendered since I was a kid, but why is it now an issue in my 40s? So, it's been a weird journey inside my head this past year.

 

I've been thinking about that, and I wonder if the increased identification leads to enhanced sensitivity to the issue within our immediate spheres of lived experience?

I remember, of course, that I've always had some interests in the male bodies, since I was young. In retrospect it is clear that my sexual interests, even before they were sexual (oxymoron?), are trained towards men. Yet, I didn't really feel silenced or marginalized until I came out to myself. Objectively, nothing in the external environment has changed. What changed was my mind set. Before I came out to myself (not to the world), the thought of acting on these urges was not really there. I had pushed the idea of acting on these interests so far back that not having the social approval to act on them seems rather irrelevant. But once I came out to myself, the inability to be honest about my interests and the social disapproval to act on them became more real and relevant, because they were then real obstacles I had to face.

 

I wonder if something similar can account for part of your increased frustration over seeing your identity erased and sidelined?

[Robin Of House Hill]

3 hours ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

My goal right now is to be more visible at work and with my friends 

 

Understanding why you want to while seeing the direction in which society is changing, is causing a cognitive dissonance which is painful for me.  How do I wish someone I care about, well, while simultaneously perceiving it as a perilous path?

[felice]

On 20/10/2016 at 0:41 PM, felice said:

If anyone's interested in genderqueer fiction, could you consider supporting this? I know the editor, and they're pretty cool.

9 hours left - they've achieved the minimum necessary to go ahead, but would like more funding to pay the authors better rates etc.

[Yukle]

23 hours ago, karaddin said:

Really with you on that Lily, I get quite frustrated with the situation here too.

X - I don't think I had consciously/explicitly realised either so now I just want to make sure by asking your preferred pronouns?

 

6 hours ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

Thanks for all of the thoughtful responses. Apologies for not responding sooner -- I was visiting my parents and only had my phone with me. 

Re: pronoun preference -- thank you for asking. Right now I've decided to stick with feminine pronouns, for a bunch of reasons (some of which might actually belong in the feminism thread). My goal right now is to be more visible at work and with my friends -- I was talking to TerraPrime a few weeks ago and lamenting how much I was suffering from erasure...in a way that I'd never actually experienced before. Like, I've known I'm unusually gendered since I was a kid, but why is it now an issue in my 40s? So, it's been a weird journey inside my head this past year.

It's a real limitation of English that there are only three sets of pronouns: male, female and plurals.

Other languages have pronouns that aren't gendered but still singular. Over time I think "their" is going to become a non-binary word but it's really lacking.

Hugs for you all - love for you just as you are!

[karaddin]

X - if it changes then let us know, but don't feel like there's any pressure to do so. What's right for you is right for you.

I think Terra is pretty spot on for at least part of it. Back when I first started thinking I was a bi guy I told almost no one and kept it mostly hidden. Over time the awareness of not being straight really started to exert pressure on me, and I wanted to exclude myself from that group. After my year in Idaho and trying to act much more like a standard guy I pushed back by coming out to my parents as bi shortly before I realised my gender identity.

I haven't really felt that way about being trans, I try to avoid hiding it and speak up where I think it might help but I don't need it to be seen the same way. It also doesn't feel like a core part of my identity, more of a "this is what I've been through" rather than "this is who I am". Being seen as a queer woman however is extremely important. As my hair got longer and I started wearing more dresses etc I started to feel like I was just being seen as straight. When I cut my hair and got the exposed ear some extra piercings it went back to being read as queer and everything that came with it from other queer women.

[Yukle]

6 minutes ago, karaddin said:

X - if it changes then let us know, but don't feel like there's any pressure to do so. What's right for you is right for you.

I think Terra is pretty spot on for at least part of it. Back when I first started thinking I was a bi guy I told almost no one and kept it mostly hidden. Over time the awareness of not being straight really started to exert pressure on me, and I wanted to exclude myself from that group. After my year in Idaho and trying to act much more like a standard guy I pushed back by coming out to my parents as bi shortly before I realised my gender identity.

I haven't really felt that way about being trans, I try to avoid hiding it and speak up where I think it might help but I don't need it to be seen the same way. It also doesn't feel like a core part of my identity, more of a "this is what I've been through" rather than "this is who I am". Being seen as a queer woman however is extremely important. As my hair got longer and I started wearing more dresses etc I started to feel like I was just being seen as straight. When I cut my hair and got the exposed ear some extra piercings it went back to being read as queer and everything that came with it from other queer women.

That's a beautiful thing to share about yourself.   

Is your profile pic you? I love it! It's legit my fave on this entire site.

[karaddin]

8 minutes ago, Yukle said:

That's a beautiful thing to share about yourself.   

Is your profile pic you? I love it! It's legit my fave on this entire site.

Yeah it's me, I had a photo shoot done a couple of years ago and really loved a couple of the photos. Felt that one looks less obvious that it would be me though so more comfortable using it on the net.

[Yukle]

4 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Yeah it's me, I had a photo shoot done a couple of years ago and really loved a couple of the photos. Felt that one looks less obvious that it would be me though so more comfortable using it on the net.

It's absolutely beautiful.   You look so serene; I love your eye shadow and hair!

Also, killer cheeks.

[Xray the Enforcer]

4 hours ago, Robin Of House Hill said:

Understanding why you want to while seeing the direction in which society is changing, is causing a cognitive dissonance which is painful for me.  How do I wish someone I care about, well, while simultaneously perceiving it as a perilous path?

I've been thinking about you a lot during this process. Your viewpoints have been valuable reference points, so thank you for being so frank about your own experiences/thoughts.

[Xray the Enforcer]

also:  to everyone else. I'm trying to gather my thoughts for a coherent post, rather than just barfing things up here.