The Case for Jon & Dany

[kimim]

That isn't true. The men aren't comfortable settling for - for lack of a better term - "used goods". In a conservative society, a widow probably wouldn't remarry, anyway. You're not realizing it isn't just about formality but also genuine attraction to virginity and the honor associated with it. Go read the sample Sansa chapter on Martin's site. Harrold's a well-concieved traditional lad. He's unhappy Sansa is a bastard. He'd be appauled if she wasn't a virgin. And his emotions towards the concept appear genuine. Do you seriously think he'd want Dany? I don't. Political incentive can persuade people, though. 

The problem is, Martin has used these traditions, but he doesn't stick to them, so it's difficult to predict how she'll be received.

In the very "conservative" Middle Ages, widows were highly attractive, in that they came with a dower, often a jointure, which could amount to 1/3 or more of their late husband's property. Medieval widows married quickly upon the deaths of their husbands. I assure you, no one would have pooh-poohed a rich widow. I will say right now that there would not be a single unmarried male in Westeros who would decline a marriage with the dragon queen. In fact, I can see married men murdering their wives to become eligible.

[Arya-Jon]

Elia for Duty; Lyanna for love

Dany for Duty; Arya for love

 

I agree mostly. I dont know about duty and love.  There will be an element of duty in Jon/Dany love as Dany is a slayer of lies, so she may want to give the crown to the real son of Rhaegar. There is some room for fireworks there because  Jon with a flaming sword fighting of those undead is something she may feel attraction towards, and Dany is simply among the most beautiful women in Westeros. 

His love for Arya is different. They look alike , and have bonded togethere because they are outcasts. They can give their lives for each other. Do crazy deeds for each other.   Its almost unconditional and in some ways a crazy kind of love which may have big consequences .

There is a lot of threes in Dany's life and this combo is a perfect balance with Jon=fire and ice, Dany=fire and Arya=ice. So all elements are balanced.

Plus on a read of Arya's initial GOT chapter where she sees dragons, initially she is afraid. But later they seem like old friends to her.  Think it may symbolize her relationship with Dany.

 

[Ser Creighton]

So long as we agree the attraction to Dany is primarily political incentive, then we're agreed. I just wanted to point out how adverse Dany is to Westerosi culture and the kingdom she wants to rule. It's a large issue. A man may marry her for political incentive, but she can only marry one man, and if the other houses don't respect her because she rejects Westerosi culture, then she may have a problem. I think the idea of the fighting pits in Meereen was like this. Dany had little respect for local cultures and tends to respond negatively to them, and violently, and it costs her. Marriage is just the tip of the iceberg. She already gave a speech on "breaking the wheel" with broad meaning. Westerosi nobility won't accept that attitude. It'll be a bloodbath

Dany is not adverse to Westrosi culture or history or practice, she does not know it very well. Which Martin pointed out, he also pointed out she could learn from Tyrion who is basically an expert of history, houses and practices, not to mention a genius.

Breaking the wheel is a show only reference, and no it does not have broad meaning, it is in the context of a conversation about support. Dany claims the small folk, Tyrion says maybe but not enough. The subject of the nobles comes up, Dany references them as crushing those beneath them aka small folk. Tyrion says it's a beautiful dream stopping the wheel. She says in reply that she is not going to stop the wheel she is going to break the wheel. It's rather specific and not about culture but war.

Westrosi culture is not that hard for her to handle, Jorah seemed fine with her, Selmy loves her and considers her his bright shinning queen. In fact those that follow Dany tend to be incredibly loyal to her. I don't trust Daario personally, but so far he has done nothing to break her trust. It's more that Martin keeps telling the reader not to trust sell swords and he comes off as a total d-bag.

No Cersei is probably not going to like her, and actually what do you actually think Westeros will be like when she eventually arrives? Filled with happiness and love for one another? Aegon is at war, Euron is on the attack in the reach, the Tyrells are on the march, civil war in the north, Stannis is on the march, Dorne is getting ready to move. LF is running the Vale, I am sure that will end well, the 7 is on the verge of a rebellion, and the Riverlands are a waste land. Oh and there is a massive army of undead. Yeah things are peachy, maybe there own culture confuses them.

As for the slavers she is not suppose to get along or identify with their culture, nobody is, they're puppy eating, child and baby killing, murdering torturing slavers. They're like the mountain or Ramsey, you are not really suppose to like them, they are very cruel and monstrous antagonists. It is not a valid comparison to the culture of Westeros or the people.

Anything with Dany will have some politics involved, she is a Queen it's unavoidable. But it does not address weather two people are attracted to each other or not. It's a different subject, would Jon find Dany attractive? Lets see Martin writes the books and refers to Dany as a striking beauty, he has compared her to Nymeria, he has spoken of her strength. Jon's mother was once said to be half horse, Dany is a Khaleesi, a Queen among the horse people. She lived a nomadic life like a Wildling out on the plains, she is referred to as a rescuer,  a breaker of chains. So do teenage young men find strikingly beautiful, rich, dragon riding, magic princesses who run around freeing slaves and enjoy camping, and horses attractive? Probably going to have to say yes. Oh and she has the Rockstar factor. She is not a girly girl either, blood does not bother her, she has seen war and not blinked, she has a strong tom boy side as seen in her Dothraki days. She enjoys the company of warriors, and one of her favorite people of all time until she found out about the betrayal was a North Man. Lets see how did the North man feel about her again? Oh yeah he worships her. How about the Barbarian Drogo? He got Dany whipped bad.

Dany has a temper. Yup she does, mostly for scum bag slavers, but she has one.

Jon also has a temper. Let's see threatened Gilly's baby when she wouldn't do what he wanted, and nearly killed a man sparing when he flew into a blind rage. I am going to suggest Jon needs to work on that, Iron Emmit was a decent guy who did nothing wrong. Kind of reminded me of Viserys and his fits.

Marrying Dany always will have a political factor, just like marrying any lord or royal would. Does not mean it has nothing to do with attraction or didn't begin with attraction or has nothing to do with love. Her position has politics attached to it.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lord Varys]

So long as we agree the attraction to Dany is primarily political incentive, then we're agreed. I just wanted to point out how adverse Dany is to Westerosi culture and the kingdom she wants to rule. It's a large issue. A man may marry her for political incentive, but she can only marry one man, and if the other houses don't respect her because she rejects Westerosi culture, then she may have a problem. I think the idea of the fighting pits in Meereen was like this. Dany had little respect for local cultures and tends to respond negatively to them, and violently, and it costs her. Marriage is just the tip of the iceberg. She already gave a speech on "breaking the wheel" with broad meaning. Westerosi nobility won't accept that attitude. It'll be a bloodbath

If Aegon and Maegor (and possibly Rhaegar) can take multiple spouses, so can Daenerys Targaryen.

The idea that the story will take time to see how Dany reacts to Westerosi customs and vice versa is pretty low if you ask me. The story has to progress. Dany won't attend many fancy tourneys or take a tour of so many peasant villages before she decides to push her claim. She'll just invade Westeros.

There are hints that there will a lot of anti-Dany propaganda in Westeros (Mace's 'as mad as her father' marked the beginning, I think), mostly coming from Aegon and Arianne should they marry and Arianne come to the conclusion that Dany deliberately murdered/let her brother die - hating her for that will make it so much easier to reconcile herself with the fact that she is effectively stealing late Quentyn's place at the side of the new Targaryen monarch.

The South of Westeros might very well be sort of united against Daenerys when she comes - people usually forget Euron in all that, but there is a good chances that many people will have joined Aegon by then, but even only with Dorne and the Golden Company he would be pretty strong.

Dany doesn't need support from Westeros. Not anymore. She'll come with a huge army and navy that could conquer Westeros even if nobody there would join her. But then, her vast strength will convince quite a few people - especially those settling near the place where she is going to land - to join her.

In regards to Jon Snow I actually see the least trouble. If Dany comes to Westeros for her throne she'll attack somewhere in the South which should be pretty much ignored in the North. If she already knows about the Others and comes to help her troops will be very much appreciated in the North or wherever it is the Others are at this point. Only if the Others have already been defeated will she be seen as a danger/problem - and that's not going to happen.

Jon has indeed not yet spilled a lot of innocent blood but he certainly will have to. If he returns he won't be the same again. He was betrayed and murdered by the people closest to him, and one assumes that this might make him not exactly forgiving or particularly trusting. He might not only kill his actual murderers but also those who knew about the plot or those he suspects must have known about it. 

Not to mention that the NW is quickly running out of food, winter has come, and there are a lot of people at the Wall thanks to Jon's overall policies. That will take its toll. He might be forced to see people starve and freeze, he might be force to abandon people to the Others, he might be forced to send people to certain deaths.

We know that Dany believes the other two dragon heads are the people she can trust more than any other person in the world. And we know that Jon thinks that a dragon at the Wall would be a huge asset. If Dany learns that Jon Snow is her real nephew and if Dany makes Jon a dragonrider by bringing a dragon to him there is no reason at all that these two should not get along splendidly. 

This whole 'Usurper's Dog' crap is going to melt like snow in dragonfire once Dany learns that Eddard Stark actually went to great lengths to save and hide Rhaegar's son. And while there is a good chance that Jon will be pretty irritated about his true heritage, feeling betrayed by Ned Stark and all who made him a bastard rather than a prince, this should also go away once he learns that his real identity and connection with his other kin on the Targaryen side of the family will be very crucial to win the coming war.

[WhitewolfStark]

In the very "conservative" Middle Ages, widows were highly attractive, in that they came with a dower, often a jointure, which could amount to 1/3 or more of their late husband's property. Medieval widows married quickly upon the deaths of their husbands. I assure you, no one would have pooh-poohed a rich widow. I will say right now that there would not be a single unmarried male in Westeros who would decline a marriage with the dragon queen. In fact, I can see married men murdering their wives to become eligible.

Thank you kimim. I will only add the caveat that it did depend upon the social position of the widow (the greater the social position--and the younger she is--the more likely they were to be re-married) and the man in general (the lower they were, the more tempted they'd be in order to jump up). Were the widow a wealthy heiress whose husband left her everything--you can bet she'd be snapped up relatively quickly. In ACOK who will marry the widow Donella Hornwood is a very large plot point after all and part of the minor politics that Bran has to deal with at the Harvest Feast.

And even if she had a kid--well, especially if she had a kid, as AGOT--a man would be motivated to marry her and to have influence over the kid--especially if that kid were his technical overlord. He could therefore make himself the "father figure" to his overlord and ingratiate himself to the point where his overlord looks up to and relies upon him and his advice. Petyr took this route, and Nestor Royce tried to beat him to it (along with many other Vale noblemen).

GRRM has already shown that widows are highly valued commodity in the novels themselves through Lysa and Donella. Barbrey figured this out but also figured out that if she remarried, she'd lose all her power--and so likely chose not to remarry.

And looking to outside of ASOIAF and to real life, Hortensio in The Taming of the Shrew, after losing Bianca does "settle" for a wealthy widow, but it also should be noted that they're on a much lower social scale than the nobles we're talking of--they're the emerging Bourgeoisie (Middle Class) who are a bit more mercenary than the aristocracy, and usually lack the security of lands and inheritable property. Being a widow in that social class was usually a thankless thing, especially if a woman didn't have a child to secure her interests, as Machiavelli states in his Renaissance Comedy "La Mandragola": "Don't you see that a childless woman has no security? If her husband dies, she is left like a stray animal. Abandoned by everyone."

As the Renaissance turned into the Baroque and Enlightenment eras, widows dropped vastly in their value--often being portrayed as older characters quick to exchange their wealth and status for the sexual attentions of a younger man and be swindled (more than a few Restoration Comedies have this character) by rakes. The stereotype remained in the public consciousness well into the 19th Century.

Since the sexual revolution of the 1960s however, the image of the widow has begun to turn around again as they get painted as MILFs or cougars these days--I.E. what they were derided for in previous centuries they're now being celebrated for.

So the idea that a widow is an unattractive option is one more of the post-Renaissance world than it is of the pre-Renaissance mindset, and very definitely a product of an emerging Bourgeoisie mindset--not an Aristocratic one.

The young widow might not be the optimal choice all the time, to be sure, but if she's wealthy, influential, a woman of property, young enough to still bear children, and marrying her can bring your own status up in the world--she's the perfect woman to marry for a social climbing man to aim for.

[Wall Flower]

Westeros is sexist and conservative, with distinct double standard that have been applied to Royal woman in the past (Rhaenyra and Daena the Defiant for example). However, it's silly to imagine that Dany wouldn't be hot marriage property to ambitious lords just because she is not a virgin. She has the perfect excuse of being previously married. If she continued to have Daario as her paramour that might raise eyebrows - although who would raise the issue to a woman with dragons?

Jon is probably the least likely guy in Westeros to care about Dany's previous sexual history - he knew that Ygritte wasn't a virgin and contemplated marrying Val despite her previous lovers. If anyone was designed to be a good husband to a powerful woman, it's got to be Jon Snow.

However, I'm not really sure that they are going to marry and rule Westeros together. Their destiny may be to fight the War for the Dawn and I'm not confident that they will survive it.

[purple-eyes]

I do not think dany will take two husbands at the same time. 

Let us be realistic, please. 

 

[lidsa]

I do not think dany will take two husbands at the same time. 

Let us be realistic, please. 

 

I think she would, if she were queen in the end. But I don't think she will be queen in the end. 

[Lord Varys]

Dany might already have a second husband. Hizdahr is still alive, and she may have already married or soon marry Khal Jhaqo as part of her attempt to take over his khalasar (or Jhaqo might force her to marry him to control her dragon, depending how the situation unfolds).

Neither of them will even think or consider the fact that Dany still has a consort back in Meereen.

Dany also has a vested interest to keep the dragons in the family, making it very likely that whoever becomes a dragonrider has a very good chance to be considered as a potential husband by her - regardless who he is. And since she happens to have three dragons there is a good chance that she'll have at least two husbands at the same time.

[SeanF]

I'm just saying her history makes her an unappealing bride option for a high status Westerosi man, and her behavior does little to improve the situation. Dany does face a problem in things like this - she wants to rule a culture she isn't a part of. Submitting to it's cultural requirements will be a problem for her. The response that "she has dragons so it doesn't matter" is just an invitation for slaughter and tyranny. Of course the culture should matter to her if she wants to be an admired and respected queen.

 

 

 

For most lords, politics is far more important than whether or not their bride is a virgin. Elaena Targaryen was a very desirable match, despite having had two children outside marriage. Amerei Frey is a very desirable match, despite her reputation. Ditto Princess Arianne.

 

What does matter is that any children of the marriage should be legitimate. But, I'm sure Dany would be well aware of that fact.  There's no evidence that Dany was unfaithful to Khal Drogo, and no reason to believe that she would have been unfaithful to Hizdahr, had the marriage lasted (her fling with Daario was prior to the marriage).

[Pod The Rod]

Dany might already have a second husband. Hizdahr is still alive, and she may have already married or soon marry Khal Jhaqo as part of her attempt to take over his khalasar (or Jhaqo might force her to marry him to control her dragon, depending how the situation unfolds).

Neither of them will even think or consider the fact that Dany still has a consort back in Meereen.

Dany also has a vested interest to keep the dragons in the family, making it very likely that whoever becomes a dragonrider has a very good chance to be considered as a potential husband by her - regardless who he is. And since she happens to have three dragons there is a good chance that she'll have at least two husbands at the same time.

Um, she swore "to give Jhaqo and Mago the same mercy they showed Eroeh". I literally cannot think of a single guy on the face of the planet she is less likely to wed. She would rather marry Ilyrio Mopatis. She would rather wed Robert Baratheon or Jaime Lannister than that guy. He's dragon food, and the only question is if Drogon will nibble like Sunfyre did or swallow him whole.

[Ser Creighton]

If Aegon and Maegor (and possibly Rhaegar) can take multiple spouses, so can Daenerys Targaryen.

The idea that the story will take time to see how Dany reacts to Westerosi customs and vice versa is pretty low if you ask me. The story has to progress. Dany won't attend many fancy tourneys or take a tour of so many peasant villages before she decides to push her claim. She'll just invade Westeros.

There are hints that there will a lot of anti-Dany propaganda in Westeros (Mace's 'as mad as her father' marked the beginning, I think), mostly coming from Aegon and Arianne should they marry and Arianne come to the conclusion that Dany deliberately murdered/let her brother die - hating her for that will make it so much easier to reconcile herself with the fact that she is effectively stealing late Quentyn's place at the side of the new Targaryen monarch.

The South of Westeros might very well be sort of united against Daenerys when she comes - people usually forget Euron in all that, but there is a good chances that many people will have joined Aegon by then, but even only with Dorne and the Golden Company he would be pretty strong.

Dany doesn't need support from Westeros. Not anymore. She'll come with a huge army and navy that could conquer Westeros even if nobody there would join her. But then, her vast strength will convince quite a few people - especially those settling near the place where she is going to land - to join her.

In regards to Jon Snow I actually see the least trouble. If Dany comes to Westeros for her throne she'll attack somewhere in the South which should be pretty much ignored in the North. If she already knows about the Others and comes to help her troops will be very much appreciated in the North or wherever it is the Others are at this point. Only if the Others have already been defeated will she be seen as a danger/problem - and that's not going to happen.

Jon has indeed not yet spilled a lot of innocent blood but he certainly will have to. If he returns he won't be the same again. He was betrayed and murdered by the people closest to him, and one assumes that this might make him not exactly forgiving or particularly trusting. He might not only kill his actual murderers but also those who knew about the plot or those he suspects must have known about it. 

Not to mention that the NW is quickly running out of food, winter has come, and there are a lot of people at the Wall thanks to Jon's overall policies. That will take its toll. He might be forced to see people starve and freeze, he might be force to abandon people to the Others, he might be forced to send people to certain deaths.

We know that Dany believes the other two dragon heads are the people she can trust more than any other person in the world. And we know that Jon thinks that a dragon at the Wall would be a huge asset. If Dany learns that Jon Snow is her real nephew and if Dany makes Jon a dragonrider by bringing a dragon to him there is no reason at all that these two should not get along splendidly. 

This whole 'Usurper's Dog' crap is going to melt like snow in dragonfire once Dany learns that Eddard Stark actually went to great lengths to save and hide Rhaegar's son. And while there is a good chance that Jon will be pretty irritated about his true heritage, feeling betrayed by Ned Stark and all who made him a bastard rather than a prince, this should also go away once he learns that his real identity and connection with his other kin on the Targaryen side of the family will be very crucial to win the coming war.

When it comes to Dany's arrival I see a different Westeros than most, I think. Mostly I try to address it from a timeline perspective. Like we are getting one book and if we are lucky that book will cover about a year of time. It is going to take a lot of time for Dany to get to Westeros, there is still a lot to do in Meereen. The Meereenese is not close to being unwound at this point, and there are a lot of things that Martin placed on the table in Essos that she needs to deal with, plus she is very far away with long travel times. Even if she had the ships she would still need to stop, multiple times before arriving in Westeros even if she left today with everything set to go. Martin is not going to stop time in Westeros for that.

In no particular Order.

House Martell, we already know Arianna is on her way to meet with Aegon though she is suspicious of him and rightfully so. Maybe an alliance maybe not. The Martell's have no clue about what happened to Quentyn, nor do they have any way of finding out for some time. Aegon does not know, never met him or Dany. Yronwood and Gerris are still in Meereen and have not left yet, nor do they have a way of returning home as Meereen is under siege. They have no friendly ships or ports to use, and it's a good 4-6 months to Westeros depending on the wind if they left today via a ship they lack. And it's not like they can march their either. Two men alone in a land of slavers. That information will not reach the Martells anytime soon, not before Arianna meets Aegon, or returns to Dorne, or musters the Dornish or anything. And lets not forget Myrcella and Darkstar, Martin is playing that out for a reason and my guess is, it's not a happy reason for Dorne.

Aegon is at Storms End and he has already attacked and the Crown is already knows he is there with the Gold Company.  Is he just going to sit and do nothing for most of the book? Will Dorne support him? Will the faith Support him? They are also on the verge of an uprising, I can't imagine things will go well if Cersei wins her trial which is not far off. So from a stand point of time something is probably going to happen here. Finally you have Jon Con and his Greyscale, Martin did not give that to him for no reason and did not have him hide it for no reason. This is an active plague disaster waiting to happen. This could be more dangerous to Aegon and the Gold Company than anything else.

The Fiath, will faith suddenly become silent and do nothing? Is that why Martin introduced the High Sparrow and put them on the verge of revolt. They are already in Conflict with Cersei.

Euron is moving on Old Town, Garlan has half the Tyrell host marching to Old Town and the Redwyne fleet is getting ready to fight the Iron Born. This is going to be a conflict, no question and like everything else it's close to happening.

Stannis will fight the Boltons, that's happening really soon. But then what? He can't march north with the snow and weather, and lacks supplies. Either way this is a conflict in the north and not healthy for the troops. It's war and he still want's to march south to KL. Not sure why because even with the remnants of the North it is not going to be that great an army.

Not much support in the Riverlands to be gained it's just been brutalized.

LF seems happy enough to sit back and wait for all the carnage he sees coming to pass and then sweep in and pick up the pieces.

Lannister and the faith may come into conflict, seems likely, Lannister and the Tyrells, Lannister and Aegon, Lannister and Dorne. With Kevan gone, if Cersei wins her trial, and lets say Marg loses or not, you have bad blood there. She may go full on Mad Queen and she has been paralleling Aerys to an extent, it's inverted, she is a Queen and instead of long hair and and being unkempt she is totally shaved and super clean, taking all these baths. But she has the green wildfire in her eyes.

Jon at the wall, not sure what will happen there, of course Jon will return. But you mention the food right? That is a great point, they have around 6 months of food, no ships right now and how exactly are they getting to Braavos or Essos to buy stuff? Maybe White Harbor, like what Stannis wants to use but again, that is like 6 weeks away on clear days and the Dread fort sits between them, and Winterfell will be going on well before that.

It is now winter and snowing in the south. You had a food shortage before Winter arrived, people starving, the only food coming from the Reach, I hope they saved some for themselves. Riverlands, are having a food shortage, crops stolen, burnt and destroyed. KL is packed with people who don't have homes or food. 

Then you have a giant army of Ice Zombies and their Frozen Vamperic Masters. I find it hard to imagine the Others don't do something in a book called Winds of winter.

Basically what Tyrion said about Westeros is going to actually be worse, and he did not paint a bright picture, but there were even more problems than he suspected or Knew about.

In the mean time, Dany is out in the Dothraki sea, she has to turn the Dothraki to her side, assemble them, and march towards whatever city she intends to go to. Meereen? Where ever. But back in Meereen this is what is on her plate. The Siege, the large fleet from Volantis, the Sons of the Harpy, the Plague, Dragon Binder, Vic and the Iron Born, Moqorro, Jorah, Tyrion, Hiz, Brown Ben, etc... Some things will resolve themselves but not all of them. How will she settle with Yunkai, New Ghis, Qarth, Volantis, Lys, Myr and all the other cities who are outside of Meereen? Even if they break the siege, it does not solve the problem of these cities. Maybe you get a giant slave revolt who knows. But some things seem like Martin placed them there to be addressed. Like Xaro and Qarth, just leave that as a dead end after he brought it up again when he did not have too? Volantis, he has been setting that stage for some time. She probably has to go there and settle some debts so to speak. Pentos? You know she is stopping there, she needs to deal with Illyrio, she is going to know about Aegon, no way she is not stopping there. Yunkai, you got to settle Yunkai maybe it happens in Meereen, maybe on a march the road to Volantis goes right past it. Braavos, she has been talking about Braavos for years, probably going to stop there as well and I highly doubt the Princess of Dragonstone does not take Dragonstone her birthplace before she hits the shores of Westeros. That is a big ass to do list for any character, that is big ass list if you have five books.

So with all this and who knows what else, I can't imagine Westeros will be anything like the landscape we saw at the end of Dance. I fully expect her first POV chapter in Spring to be her first real Westeros chapter. Maybe she finally lands at the end of Winds, but her first full on chapter in Westeros is probably in Spring. Unless the book has a time skip in it, like 6-12 months, I don't see how she gets there anytime soon. I wish and hope that's not true but I can't see her getting there quickly even if she started for Westeros in chapter one of Winds. It's still a long voyage. There is also a reason the last person coming to her, Marwyn. Is the guy with information about the Others, the Glass candles, the war, the Night's watch etc... Maybe it gets Dark for like a week and everyone in Essos is just like oh shit she really is the chosen one, you need to get you and your Dragons to Westeros. Plus the Dragons are not grown enough yet. Oh and he will give them time for that, as the Man says they are going to be very large Dragons by the time she lands. Well 20 - 30 feet is not even close to large.

So the real question is what will war riddled, starving, ice cold, Westeros be like 12 to 18 months from now? Probably not good. I don't know if she is going to be walking into armies so much as a bloody disaster. Nothing will fix the food problem for a lot of people and Martin set it up that way, we knows this, we know about the food shortages all over the place. Nothing is going to make winter leave for some time yet. Nothing is going to stop the wars and the blood. In fact the hungrier they get the more bloody it will get. Some places are in decent shape, but many places are going to starve and revolt and more blood and the Others. Boy I bet they love all those nice dead bodies.

Westeros has been slowly degenerating for 5 books and it only looks to get worse in book 6. Remember this is a man who actually excels at writing horror and he has been teasing it in lots of his books. Brans cave, the Night Fort, the Others, Old Nan's stories, Rat and Cheese, Nymeria, Lady Stoneheart, Cannibalism, sacrifices, nightmares come to life. the creepy has been rising with the death toll. I totally look forward to it, and think the dead lands will return and parts of Westeros will be full on Nightmare mode. I mean think about it, the Enemy is not exactly like some antagonistic king, it's the Night's King, he is basically akin to demonic frozen Vampire Lord and he has an army of Zombies, endless Darkness, Giant spiders? This is not just a fantasy enemy, it's horror story enemy. That's why places like the Night Fort are so horror story driven. Pretty much anything associated with him comes off as a horror story. Did you know there are real giant sea spiders? Some have a leg span of 2 feet, creepy blood suckers, and the big ones are all in the arctic.

Anyway, I am thinking not a good place when she arrives. It's bad now but I am thinking way worse by then, time is working against Westeros here, while she only seems to get stronger. I just can't see it being in a good place do to everything that has happened and is happening. I expect some major problems which the table seems to be set for and there is a lot of time on hand for Martin to really go horror story on Westeros.

 

 

[TheKingoftheSevenKingdoms]

Although there have been Jon and Daenerys threads - too many in my opinion - this was very well thought out. I used to hate the idea of Jon and Daenerys together (I want Jon to marry Arianne Martell for political reasons or die alone and a hero), but after reading ridiculous speculation on people who actually think Jon will marry Sansa or Arya, Daenerys and Jon together seems more plausible and an endgame pairing that would fit the overall series as a whole.

I think Jon and Daenerys will be two of the most important pieces to the endgame war with the Others (White Walkers). A lot of people think both are going to die. I actually think Daenerys is going to die and Jon's going to survive. 

[NorthGirl]

^^^^^^Haha, that's pretty much the evolution of my Jon/Dany acceptance as well. I was like "fuck no" but then Jon/Sansa and Jon/Arya came out of the woodwork and I was like "fuuuuuuuuuuuck NO!".

 

Re OP: Sure why not. Val sounds unlikely and boring, Sansa would be gross, and Arya would make me vomit because they're that much closer. The one thing though is that Dany also seems to like douchebags. 

I mean I will get migraines from the eyerolling but that's nothing new for those two. Still wishing for that harem life for Dany though, LOL. I think people are reluctant because them getting together wouldn't just be super fantasy trope-y to the max, it would be super fucking Disney. I wouldn't mind though because there would be conflict with Dany having to think more critically about RR and Jon's position as a political ally or a threat. Loads of things would be helped by them getting married. And with the other pairings proposed, I'm getting over that aunt-nephew thing really quickly.

 

All in all, I'm convinced. I just hope that there is none of that Jon is king and usurps all of Dany's awesomeness nonsense. Drogon is hers. 

[Arya-Jon]

^^^^^^Haha, that's pretty much the evolution of my Jon/Dany acceptance as well. I was like "fuck no" but then Jon/Sansa and Jon/Arya came out of the woodwork and I was like "fuuuuuuuuuuuck NO!".

 

Re OP: Sure why not. Val sounds unlikely and boring, Sansa would be gross, and Arya would make me vomit 

That's a fair reaction actually. I guess many people will join you in the vomit fest if it happens. Though I would not say Grrm has not warned us. Apart from the many hints in AGOT, these two or threee? in ASOS stick in my mind, and was when I actually began believing this.

She wondered if he would still call her “little sister.” I’m not so little anymore. He’d have to call me something else.

 

“If you kill a man, and never mean t’, he’s just as dead,” Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever?-Jon

 

Would you bed your sister? 

Jon Snow defends this by saying "Craster weds his daughters"

 

And this line 

Arya ran to him for a last hug. “Put down the sword first,” Jon warned her, laughing. She set it aside almost shyly and showered him with kisses… The memory of her laughter warmed him on the long ride north.

This line used to make me emotional until , I noticed the almost shyly part. Now, i cant help Loling at it all.

At least till the five year gap had been abandoned, George seems to have had both Arya and Dany in mind as a relationship to Jon. Because this whole not a  little sister, bedding your sister thing came up in ASOS. And Dany's  reference is in  ACOK where bride of fire is talked abt.

So at least then it was not one or the other. I think Grrm created Aegon the conqueror because of Jon,  to give some sort of precedent to all the shit he was going to make him do.

Has he abandoned Jon/Arya? I dont know. There are some super romantic lines in ADWD (which is after the five year gap), only if you ignore the sister part.

What do you know of my heart priestess? What do you know of my sister? 

But getting it to work would be tough especially in the show. But then again Maisie has done an incest sex scene in "The falling" and now she is older.

To be honest almost all of Grrm's pairings have been gross have they not?

Petyr/Sansa? Sandor/Sansa (Age difference?), Drogo/Dany (Aged difference/rape). Daario/Dany is also not so nice. Especially this line : "If ever there was a man who could rape a woman with his eyes ".  Even the pairing that I love a lot, Jaime / Brienne has some level of age difference. The way he wrote it he made Sandor/Sansa and Jaime/Brienne a bit more acceptable to me. (From a pure fiction perspective).

At this point expecting anything but a gross pairing from Grrm would be folly. The reason I support Jon/Arya is because all pairings are gross one way or the other, but in this one Arya would get to rule. And unlike popular opinion on this forum , she can be a damn good ruler. Being mean to evil doers, being able to detect lies,a love for the common people, an empathy for her own pack and her father's men can make her a petentially good ruler in the future. Her willingness to use warging means she can be as dangeous as bloodraven to the realm's enemies. Especially if she has the right king to rule with.  Lets not forget she is just a child. For instance initially she just could not keep her mouth shut. But in Bravos, she has learnt how to for long durations . Along with learning how to lie and detect lies.

So i am hopeful on Grrm's writing ability. 

If they are making Jon and Arya together , they must do it properly and not ruin it. Like if they are doing incest, then full blown incest. Not the shit , where  "Oh, we are cousins, so we can fall in love"

But as far as the OP' is concerned dont think Arya and Dany was a case of one or the other. At least before the five year gap. 

 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

well he grows up with Arya, and calls her his sister already in Dance, but technically they are cousins by blood if R+L=J... Dany, I think, is the child of R+L just like Jon (9months younger than Jon)... But that's another story

I know that Arya is his sister, but how Lyanna managed to give birth to Dany almost 8 months after her death?

[the trees have eyes]

That isn't true. The men aren't comfortable settling for - for lack of a better term - "used goods". In a conservative society, a widow probably wouldn't remarry, anyway. You're not realizing it isn't just about formality but also genuine attraction to virginity and the honor associated with it. Go read the sample Sansa chapter on Martin's site. Harrold's a well-concieved traditional lad. He's unhappy Sansa is a bastard. He'd be appauled if she wasn't a virgin. And his emotions towards the concept appear genuine. Do you seriously think he'd want Dany? I don't. Political incentive can persuade people, though. 

The problem is, Martin has used these traditions, but he doesn't stick to them, so it's difficult to predict how she'll be received.

 

 

 

Rubbish.  Widows from powerful families are highly attractive propositions and commonly remarry.  Look at Tywin planning to marry off Cersei...  You don't seem to be able to get past the idea that a woman can only ever sleep with one man and that once she does she is damaged goods in the eyes of every other man but that is on you not on GRRM or the soceity and culture he has depicted.. 

Do you really think male sexuality has an on / off switch towards a beautiful woman based on "a genuine attraction to virginity"?  Please.  Dany is young, charismatic and beautiful, an alpha female in herself before you add what she brings by birth and politcal accomplishment.  Marriage alliances are all about politics, that's kind of obvious from the term, and for the alliance to work both families have to know that the children are what binds their houses together - hence the need for the wife to be beyond reproach.  That's how much of a genuine attraction to virginity there is.  Plus of course the bride has no sexual references to assess her spouse's skillset and find him inferior.  There is no detumescence if the prospective beauty knows how to please a man, quite the opposite.... 

Harry is effectively the heir to the Eyrie and he takes offense because Alayne Stone is far beneath him socially and a bastard to boot.  If she was revealed as Sansa Stark, and let's assume a widow with a sexual history with her husband, he would have not a care in the world - status, wealth and beauty, all wrapped up in one very attractive package for him.  Now imagine instead of Sansa he's looking at the Dragon Queen.  She's out of his league and they both know it but if by some miracle a match was possible he would be all over it in a flash.

[The Fattest Leech]

actuallyWhat barristan says is dany is still a young girl as she herself would claim when it pleased her to play the innocent ...and she is the one that was holding meereen together ...  

Yet she is nothing like viserys  that should be clear from the very moment we read her chapters....she doesn't buy into illyrio's crap and suspicious of him  .....

 

 

True, true about the young girl. But it is mentioned a few times in other cases and I can't really agree that Meereen is actually "together". Barristan is very biased towards Daenerys to a fault and this line from him is another that displays that crack in logic. There are killings in the streets- not just harpy but others like the young killing the old and so on, everyone plotting against the other, so much so that Dany has to wear her floppy ears to try and appease all sides.

I should have more clear about Viserys, sorry. Clearly he was not the Last Dragon^R. What I meant was Daenerys was raised by Viserys with lots of knowledge about being a dragon (Targ) and the history of her family line, blood of the dragons, dragonriders, dragon taming and such. So when her dragon puberty/birth happens it doesn't take her as much by surprise. She kinda knows what to expect even if it takes her a chapter to realize, "Hey, this is actually happening and it feels kinda cool." Whereas (just for shits and giggles) if Tyrion or Jon or *Quentyn or *Aegon were to be dragons by birth, then their learning curve is lagging far behind Dany because not only do they have to figure out where the gas pedal is on a dragon, they have to get the dragon-balls to do it and figure out their own secret lineage and what does this all mean???

* two slight exceptions because they "know" their lineage but still have no dragon experience... if they are true.

[Drogonthedread]

True, true about the young girl. But it is mentioned a few times in other cases and I can't really agree that Meereen is actually "together". Barristan is very biased towards Daenerys to a fault and this line from him is another that displays that crack in logic. There are killings in the streets- not just harpy but others like the young killing the old and so on, everyone plotting against the other, so much so that Dany has to wear her floppy ears to try and appease all sides.

I should have more clear about Viserys, sorry. Clearly he was not the Last Dragon^R. What I meant was Daenerys was raised by Viserys with lots of knowledge about being a dragon (Targ) and the history of her family line, blood of the dragons, dragonriders, dragon taming and such. So when her dragon puberty/birth happens it doesn't take her as much by surprise. She kinda knows what to expect even if it takes her a chapter to realize, "Hey, this is actually happening and it feels kinda cool." Whereas (just for shits and giggles) if Tyrion or Jon or *Quentyn or *Aegon were to be dragons by birth, then their learning curve is lagging far behind Dany because not only do they have to figure out where the gas pedal is on a dragon, they have to get the dragon-balls to do it and figure out their own secret lineage and what does this all mean???

* two slight exceptions because they "know" their lineage but still have no dragon experience... if they are true.

no he uses that keeping together when speaking about the council she has in meereen amidst all this problems you mentioned. ....a council which consisted meereeenese .,dothraki .,unsullied ..,freed men and sellswords and mothers men and the people. ....in case you haven't noticed everyone still asks for their mother when she disappears and fights for her in the battle against yunkai. ...so she is the only one keeping all this different factions united .a girl of 16 years...dany wears the floppy ears because to make the opposing meereeenese feel that she is one of them. Similarly how she wanted to marry hizdar ...she is willing to make compromises for the people she rule and she tries adapts to their customs....do you think someone Like cersei is capable of this or does she even ever think about her duty to serve the people ...which danykeeps telling herself a queen must be for her people and not for herself .....    

 

 

   You are wrong though viserys knowledge about dragons are not that much ....  You are talking about a girl who is thinking basically thinks this

   " they are growing and they must be trained as well ,or they will lay my kingdom waste ...For all her targaryen blood..dany had not the least idea of how to train a dragon. "   ACOK.

  This lack of knowledge comes in ASoS as well ...hence dany asking jorah and barristan about the dragons growth and etc ....so viserys didn't teach her much except abuse her saying that she woke the dragon ...YouMentioned Quentyn that is perfect example when you need to compare dany with her dragons......when she and quentyn goes to see the dragons she was scared too but was strong enough to be not to look scared where as quentyn was sweating bullets. .....we see how afraid dany is when she is against drogon in the pit but she overcomes her fear and shows courage ...

  All she learned from viserys was the names of past dragons and their riders. ...and the wars and battles they fought on those dragons....nothing more ...  

and that in itself presents the question isn't it if a girl who was the last surviving member of a family and called as last Dragon and mother of dragons and blood of the dragon ( a separate book consisting of dany chapters named this and got grrm an award ) ...a girl who fed those dragons her own milk and entered the fire to bring them to the world ....have this much hardships in controlling them ...how do you think guys who know nothing about dragons and done nothing related to or for those dragons will able to control it just like ....there is a reason dany is called the last dragon and I don't think anyone is going to ride dragons .jon tyrion all maybe targs or targ bastards but that doesn't make them dragon ....viserys was a targ as well but not dragon and not all the targs are called as dragons only few....and I would say this is the exact reason why a dragon horn is going to meereen it will end up with dany at last ....  

  Say she learned all those things from viserys And I still don't know how this will make her mad .....almost hundred times she has been compared with RHaegar and not with viserys or aerys ....she knows and understands many things that viseeys never did...she listened to the common people suspected the gifts of the rich people ....doesn't believe in people waiting for her in westeros like viseys did ....a mad one will not keep questioning her actions like she does especially in ADWD ...a mad one doesnt keep thinking and scared whether she is a monster too and mad....will she be more ruthless to her enemies now ...yes she certainly will be ...but she gave them a full book of choices and they didn't take and compromised enough for the peace but if you are going to have a peace in slavers bay you must be defeating and destroy the yunkai and ghiscari once and for all ...and that doesnt make her mad no body called aegon the dragon mad ....  

 And let's be honest in a story were her father and brother were mad and where there is already a mad queen in the making cersei ....how terrible  writing do you think it would be to turn a character who has shown time and time again how she is not like one of them to do a complete 360 turn of characters

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SeanF]

In the very "conservative" Middle Ages, widows were highly attractive, in that they came with a dower, often a jointure, which could amount to 1/3 or more of their late husband's property. Medieval widows married quickly upon the deaths of their husbands. I assure you, no one would have pooh-poohed a rich widow. I will say right now that there would not be a single unmarried male in Westeros who would decline a marriage with the dragon queen. In fact, I can see married men murdering their wives to become eligible.

What's there to lose by marrying Dany, if she's the Queen? She's got status, power, beauty, money? There'd be a queue of suitors round the Red Keep.

Even if you're just a consort, rather than ruling King, you'd lack for nothing.