What is exactly the southern ambition?

[purple-eyes]

Rickard Stark is certainly doing something. 

He set his heir to marry daughter of tully, sent Ned to be foster son of jon of vale, promised lyanna to robert to combine with stormland. If Tywin marries Jaime with lysa, then five kingdoms were united by marriages or fostering. This sounds very dangerous for the throne. 

What did he want to do? Only to improve his influence in the south? Or he seriously is preparing against the throne? Was he indeed planning to someday send Robert onto the throne with lyanna as his queen? 

It is hard to believe aerys would allow him to make these bold actions. It is better for the throne to arrange lyanna marry oberyn and cersei marry viserys, or vice versa, so that he can break their alliances. 

 

 

 

[Shostak]

I don't think that there was a plan to break Targaryen control of the Iron Throne, although there could have been a scheme to put Rhaegar on the throne rather than Aerys. However, I think it's more likely that the idea was simply to create a united bloc of nobles with the goal of preserving their rights. Let's not forget that in the years prior to this Aegon V had passed laws that reduced the power of the great lords over their peasants and generally restricted their independence, something that could well unite the great lords. What's more, the war of the Ninepenny Kings helped to create greater bonds of friendship as well as cooperation between some of the great lords, which could have also drawn them together.

[dariopatke]

Rickard Stark is certainly doing something. 

He set his heir to marry daughter of tully, sent Ned to be foster son of jon of vale, promised lyanna to robert to combine with stormland. If Tywin marries Jaime with lysa, then five kingdoms were united by marriages or fostering. This sounds very dangerous for the throne. 

What did he want to do? Only to improve his influence in the south? Or he seriously is preparing against the throne? Was he indeed planning to someday send Robert onto the throne with lyanna as his queen? 

It is hard to believe aerys would allow him to make these bold actions. It is better for the throne to arrange lyanna marry oberyn and cersei marry viserys, or vice versa, so that he can break their alliances. 

 

 

 

And Lyanna to Robert.

Well, they wanted to marry Cersei to someone from Dorne, Joanna Lannister and Princess of Dorne were really good friends and thats really why they viseted CR when Tyrion was born, but sadly she died and Tywin wanted to marry her to Rheagar so Ellia marring him was a deserved slap in a face to Tywin. The only uncovered faction is Reach but I cant get why since they are most important.

This is all very wierd because it is custom to marry children to your own banner (Baratheon-Estermont, Tully-Whent, Tyrell-Hightower(I guess)) and suddenly you have all wardens marring each other.

There is a theory that I like very much that maesters are behind all this, they were plotting to destroy Targs and magic with them. To destroy Targs you have to fist get rid of their dragons and house Hightower(Oldtown,Citadel) helped Dance of Dragoms to happen. Now they just have to wait and pick rigt moment. Maesters are eyes and ears of every nobleman so they could arrange all of it.

[Dorian Martell]

He wanted his family to play a greater role in the kingdom. Himself and a number of other lords were arranging marriage pacts to strengthen alliances with each other. Ideally, one of the children of those alliances could be a Queen or a Prince Regent if the King had no make heir. Since the conquest, it seems that the north has been fairly independent with a limited interaction with the crown. There were some visits, but the north has had to deal with other issues outside of crown politics, like wildling invasions, rebellion on Skagos, the Ironborn and a secession crisis. Even in the Dance, Lord Cregan marched south but only stayed there for six days before returning north

[dariopatke]

I don't think that there was a plan to break Targaryen control of the Iron Throne, although there could have been a scheme to put Rhaegar on the throne rather than Aerys. However, I think it's more likely that the idea was simply to create a united bloc of nobles with the goal of preserving their rights. Let's not forget that in the years prior to this Aegon V had passed laws that reduced the power of the great lords over their peasants and generally restricted their independence, something that could well unite the great lords. What's more, the war of the Ninepenny Kings helped to create greater bonds of friendship as well as cooperation between some of the great lords, which could have also drawn them together.

That amount of scheeming is not necessary to impeech a mad man from his position, just tourney in HH was more that enough. After seeing him in HH I would vote for Rheagar or someone else. There must be a bigger picture behind that.

[purple-eyes]

I don't think that there was a plan to break Targaryen control of the Iron Throne, although there could have been a scheme to put Rhaegar on the throne rather than Aerys. However, I think it's more likely that the idea was simply to create a united bloc of nobles with the goal of preserving their rights. Let's not forget that in the years prior to this Aegon V had passed laws that reduced the power of the great lords over their peasants and generally restricted their independence, something that could well unite the great lords. What's more, the war of the Ninepenny Kings helped to create greater bonds of friendship as well as cooperation between some of the great lords, which could have also drawn them together.

Maybe. But to be called as "ambition", there should be something beyond just trying to be a stronger overlord. 

But I do not think Rickard favored rhaegar. He did not try to get close to targ as far as we know. He did not attend HH tourney. His sons were angry when rhaegar honored their sister. 

[hardhome]

Not to split heirs but the cycle worked like this Ned fostered in the Vale = Ayrrn Support (maybe).  Brandon marries Catlyn = Tully Support. Lyanna marries Robert = Baratheon Support.  Jamie Marries Lysa, Tully Support = Lannister Support.  Oberyn offered to Cersei Lannister support = Martell Support.  Elia was offered to a Hightower whose mother was born a Tyrell, Martell Support = Tyrell Support.  Who was at the head of this organization was unclear but if all marriages had gone as planned only the Vale  and Iron Islands would not be married into this alliance.

[dariopatke]

Not to split heirs but the cycle worked like this Ned fostered in the Vale = Ayrrn Support (maybe).  Brandon marries Catlyn = Tully Support. Lyanna marries Robert = Baratheon Support.  Jamie Marries Lysa, Tully Support = Lannister Support.  Oberyn offered to Cersei Lannister support = Martell Support.  Elia was offered to a Hightower whose mother was born a Tyrell, Martell Support = Tyrell Support.  Who was at the head of this organization was unclear but if all marriages had gone as planned only the Vale  and Iron Islands would not be married into this alliance.

Vale didnt need to, fostering was even better. When you put two kids to a 60yo he will love them like would love his own and more so it was more than certain he will go for it. Iron Isles are so inimportant aand miserable I wont even go i to it.

Do you have an idea who is behind all that? Jon isnt, Robert too young, Lannisters arent too because they rejected Martells, Rickard isnt because he will use his sons arrest to call banners and not come to KL alone. Greyjojys arent too, so we really have Tullys, Martells, Tyrells and maesters. Or maybe Iron bank? They wanted war so they could empty realms reserves and force them to ask money from IB?

[hardhome]

Vale didnt need to, fostering was even better. When you put two kids to a 60yo he will love them like would love his own and more so it was more than certain he will go for it. Iron Isles are so inimportant aand miserable I wont even go i to it.

Do you have an idea who is behind all that? Jon isnt, Robert too young, Lannisters arent too because they rejected Martells, Rickard isnt because he will use his sons arrest to call banners and not come to KL alone. Greyjojys arent too, so we really have Tullys, Martells, Tyrells and maesters. Or maybe Iron bank? They wanted war so they could empty realms reserves and force them to ask money from IB?

Well if Lady Dustin's info was accurate than it was probably originates in some way from the Maesters which is actually supported a bit by Cressen, Pate and Samwell's information as they are the only POVs that are or have been in Old Town.  But which Maester  is left unclear and maester's hide their original house affiliation. 

But not to completely derail the thread on a tangent, through marriages his grand children would/should eventually rule the Stormlands aswell as the North.  The timeline is uncertain to me but since Edmure is 3rd born Catlyn and by extention Brandon may have been the presumptive heir to the Riverlands at the time the plan was conceived as well.  Eddard may have been sent to set up a match with one of Alys Ayrrn's daughters in addition to that making him presumptive heir to the Vale by extention.

[Wolf's Bane]

Maybe. But to be called as "ambition", there should be something beyond just trying to be a stronger overlord. 

But I do not think Rickard favored rhaegar. He did not try to get close to targ as far as we know. He did not attend HH tourney. His sons were angry when rhaegar honored their sister. 

I agree.  TBH, while I would like to believe in the theory, proposed by Stefan Sasse, and named "Southron Ambitions", I have found no strong evidence for it.  However, it really does not matter in the long run what Rickard's intentions where.  If such unions were allowed to come to fruition, then the Starks, Baratheons, Tullys, and Aryns would have a very strong power block that could resist the will of King's Landing.  King Aerys II, as the reigning monarch, was well within his rights to protect his reign and the dynasty.  His ancestors built the kingdom and the capital city.  As a loyal Targaryen fan, I would like nothing better than to find evidence for Southron Ambitions, as it would prove that Rickard and that awful Brandon were already guilty of treason even before Harrenhal.  I do loathe the Starks, with the exception of Ned. 

Regardless of the intentions of the persons involved, those unions needed to be prevented.  I think it is quite possible that was Rhaegar's intentions at Harrenhal.  To seduce Lyanna and break the centerpiece of the alliance.  I am not sold on the R+L=J idea, but still, if Rhaegar could seduce Lyanna and break the alliance, it would be a cock-blocking move worthy of a prince.  One of the folks at towerofthehand.com presented an interesting idea:  Rhaegar's music was enchanted, meant to seduce.  Rhaegar stacked the deck in his favor.  As if good-looks, blonde hair, purple eyes, Targaryen, and royalty were not enough.  Lyanna crying like that seemed out of character as she has been described as Arya-like.  The blue roses were also enchanted, again to further stack the deck.  It is just a theory, but an interesting one. 

[purple-eyes]

I agree.  TBH, while I would like to believe in the theory, proposed by Stefan Sasse, and named "Southron Ambitions", I have found no strong evidence for it.  However, it really does not matter in the long run what Rickard's intentions where.  If such unions were allowed to come to fruition, then the Starks, Baratheons, Tullys, and Aryns would have a very strong power block that could resist the will of King's Landing.  King Aerys II, as the reigning monarch, was well within his rights to protect his reign and the dynasty.  His ancestors built the kingdom and the capital city.  As a loyal Targaryen fan, I would like nothing better than to find evidence for Southron Ambitions, as it would prove that Rickard and that awful Brandon were already guilty of treason even before Harrenhal.  I do loathe the Starks, with the exception of Ned. 

Regardless of the intentions of the persons involved, those unions needed to be prevented.  I think it is quite possible that was Rhaegar's intentions at Harrenhal.  To seduce Lyanna and break the centerpiece of the alliance.  I am not sold on the R+L=J idea, but still, if Rhaegar could seduce Lyanna and break the alliance, it would be a cock-blocking move worthy of a prince.  One of the folks at towerofthehand.com presented an interesting idea:  Rhaegar's music was enchanted, meant to seduce.  Rhaegar stacked the deck in his favor.  As if good-looks, blonde hair, purple eyes, Targaryen, and royalty were not enough.  Lyanna crying like that seemed out of character as she has been described as Arya-like.  The blue roses were also enchanted, again to further stack the deck.  It is just a theory, but an interesting one. 

Oh, FYI, if official APP can be trusted, then Rickard was indeed an "ambitious" man who "used" his children to build the alliances and seek power. It was confirmed in his entry. It is not a guess, it is truth. 

Rhaegar's song seems to be very seductive. 

At this point, we have three times talking about Rhaegar made the listener cry by his songs. 

First one, Lyanna. Second one, Cersei, Third one, JonCon (as a man he did not weep, but all women in his house cried at Rhaegar's song)

And you can see the outcome of his songs. 

 

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

If anything, it was the maesters attempt to get rid of the targs.

[dariopatke]

I agree.  TBH, while I would like to believe in the theory, proposed by Stefan Sasse, and named "Southron Ambitions", I have found no strong evidence for it.  However, it really does not matter in the long run what Rickard's intentions where.  If such unions were allowed to come to fruition, then the Starks, Baratheons, Tullys, and Aryns would have a very strong power block that could resist the will of King's Landing.  King Aerys II, as the reigning monarch, was well within his rights to protect his reign and the dynasty.  His ancestors built the kingdom and the capital city.  As a loyal Targaryen fan, I would like nothing better than to find evidence for Southron Ambitions, as it would prove that Rickard and that awful Brandon were already guilty of treason even before Harrenhal.  I do loathe the Starks, with the exception of Ned. 

Regardless of the intentions of the persons involved, those unions needed to be prevented.  I think it is quite possible that was Rhaegar's intentions at Harrenhal.  To seduce Lyanna and break the centerpiece of the alliance.  I am not sold on the R+L=J idea, but still, if Rhaegar could seduce Lyanna and break the alliance, it would be a cock-blocking move worthy of a prince.  One of the folks at towerofthehand.com presented an interesting idea:  Rhaegar's music was enchanted, meant to seduce.  Rhaegar stacked the deck in his favor.  As if good-looks, blonde hair, purple eyes, Targaryen, and royalty were not enough.  Lyanna crying like that seemed out of character as she has been described as Arya-like.  The blue roses were also enchanted, again to further stack the deck.  It is just a theory, but an interesting one. 

Isnt better and more clean way to offer to bethrode Viserys to Lyanna? Or Oberyn? And offer some ally to Robert? And offer Tywin to release Jaime from KG and hand of peace and friendship once again? Jon Arryn is old amd wise, appoint him to Small Council. Blackfish isnt married and wont be likely, name him to KG to fill Jaimes place. Ask to foster Edmure and/or Lysa in Red Keep. You drove out everyone from original intentions, Jon cant call banners, Tywin will be happy and neutral at least, Tyrells and Martell are yours amd Hoster is frightened to do anything.

And Rickard was surely not alone in his ambitions, it covered whole continent, and why was Brandon awful?

[Darth Sidious]

Southron Ambitions is one of the best ideas out there.  Lady Dustin seems intelligent enough to me to know the lay of the land, so to speak.  It just goes to show the Stark family is not the shining example of honor and morals that they first appeared to be.  Dig deeper into the story and you find a lot of dirt on the Starks.  Which makes sense when you consider among its members Arya (murderer), Brandon (terroristic threats against the royal family, womanizer), Robb (oathbreaking punk), Jon (night watch deserter and traitor), Rickard (treason, traitor), Theon Stark (the hungry wolf), the Night's King, and Bran (mind-raping a simpleton). 

[dariopatke]

Southron Ambitions is one of the best ideas out there.  Lady Dustin seems intelligent enough to me to know the lay of the land, so to speak.  It just goes to show the Stark family is not the shining example of honor and morals that they first appeared to be.  Dig deeper into the story and you find a lot of dirt on the Starks.  Which makes sense when you consider among its members Arya (murderer), Brandon (terroristic threats against the royal family, womanizer), Robb (oathbreaking punk), Jon (night watch deserter and traitor), Rickard (treason, traitor), Theon Stark (the hungry wolf), the Night's King, and Bran (mind-raping a simpleton). 

Like any family you have good and bad guys, you also have Bran the Builder, Bran the Breaker, that Bran that liked ships(open minded, exploring spirit), Ned (man whose honour killed him), Benjen (we didnt see much of him, but I didnt find anything bad about him), Lyanna, Sansa (I wonder how she doesnt start killing everyone on her way because of what happend to her, very strong mind), Cregan, Torrhen(wise and saved 30k men),...

Dude, Hungry Wolf is best Stark by far, so mighty, so badass, true leader of North.

You have Walder Frey and ser Stevron.

Aerys II, Maegor, Viserys, that dude that tried wildfire and Aegon IV on one hand and maester Aemon, Baelor and Jahaerys I on other.

There were a lot of good Boltons, too, like Domeric.

Tytos, Kevan, Tyrek, Gerion and Tommen are good Lannisters and there were many of them in the past (probably my favourite house)

[Lord Varys]

It specifically refers to the context of Rickard Stark wanting southron marriages, not continue all those Stark cousin or bannermen marriages thing. And Lady Dustin uses those words because she is pissed that Rickard didn't think Brandon was good enough for her, a fellow Northerner. She may even be right that Maester Walys was the guy suggesting southron marriages - but then, the man was a Hightower bastard by an archmaester. One should expect that a maester born and raised in Oldtown would consider 'the South' the bright center of Westeros, and not exactly argue in favor of Northern marriages when the topic of the spouses for Rickard's children comes up.

If the Citadel had an agenda sending a Southron maester with close ties to the leadership of the institution to Winterfell one should think they had a different goal - like fighting against Stark/Northern superstition (Others, wights, skinchangers, etc.) or gathering knowledge.

We also know that Rickard Stark hung out at the court of young Aerys II, so there is a very good chance that Rickard Stark finally wanted that his family would be considered important enough to play with the big children (i.e. the great houses in the South and the other important families). Historically the Starks pretty much played no role at during the entire Targaryen reign if you ignore the Dance. And even then they did everything in their power to not become entangled in court politics too much.

Arranging strategic marriages and establishing good relations with his southern peers allowed Lord Rickard to actually play a more direct role in the affairs of the Realm. But the very idea that Rickard was at the center for some anti-Targaryen conspiracy makes little sense - no one would have turned to him for that. The man was the weakest and remotest of the great lords, and had effectively nothing to gain by turning against the Targaryens but everything to gain if he won his favor.

[dariopatke]

It specifically refers to the context of Rickard Stark wanting southron marriages, not continue all those Stark cousin or bannermen marriages thing. And Lady Dustin uses those words because she is pissed that Rickard didn't think Brandon was good enough for her, a fellow Northerner. She may even be right that Maester Walys was the guy suggesting southron marriages - but then, the man was a Hightower bastard by an archmaester. One should expect that a maester born and raised in Oldtown would consider 'the South' the bright center of Westeros, and not exactly argue in favor of Northern marriages when the topic of the spouses for Rickard's children comes up.

If the Citadel had an agenda sending a Southron maester with close ties to the leadership of the institution to Winterfell one should think they had a different goal - like fighting against Stark/Northern superstition (Others, wights, skinchangers, etc.) or gathering knowledge.

We also know that Rickard Stark hung out at the court of young Aerys II, so there is a very good chance that Rickard Stark finally wanted that his family would be considered important enough to play with the big children (i.e. the great houses in the South and the other important families). Historically the Starks pretty much played no role at during the entire Targaryen reign if you ignore the Dance. And even then they did everything in their power to not become entangled in court politics too much.

Arranging strategic marriages and establishing good relations with his southern peers allowed Lord Rickard to actually play a more direct role in the affairs of the Realm. But the very idea that Rickard was at the center for some anti-Targaryen conspiracy makes little sense - no one would have turned to him for that. The man was the weakest and remotest of the great lords, and had effectively nothing to gain by turning against the Targaryens but everything to gain if he won his favor.

Exactly, he was part of game but certanly not a leader. After all you can see marriage pacts between realms long before Rickard got in game. (Lannister-Martell are around 273)

I dont know why people see him as a man who started everything.

[purple-eyes]

Exactly, he was part of game but certanly not a leader. After all you can see marriage pacts between realms long before Rickard got in game. (Lannister-Martell are around 273)

I dont know why people see him as a man who started everything.

lannister and martell marriage for me are more like something between two best female friends. Not that political. Tywin had zero interest in it. 

[Lord Varys]

Exactly, he was part of game but certanly not a leader. After all you can see marriage pacts between realms long before Rickard got in game. (Lannister-Martell are around 273)

I dont know why people see him as a man who started everything.

Not sure what the Lannister-Martell marriage idea between the Princess and Joanna has anything to do with anything. That's an isolated Lannister-Martell issue.

In general, marriages between houses from different regions are not that uncommon. Just look at all the spouses of Walder Frey and many of his children. There is a certain tendency among the great houses to marry their own bannermen, but it is also not uncommon to marry somebody from a different region.

The very idea that there was some vast conspiracy going on between multiple great houses you can actually uncover by following various marriages or attempted marriages makes no sense. If such a thing existed, then the lords involved in all that would have to have been a lot closer than they actually were, and subsequently the Rebellion would never have happened.

There are people suggesting that those conspirators wanted to replace the Targaryens with Steffon or Robert but that doesn't make any sense. Steffon and Aerys were friends, and Robert certainly would have been a worse king than Rhaegar in any possible scenario - perhaps a better king than Aerys, but in light of AGoT even that is in doubt (Robert was throughout better than Aerys in his last years, but by comparison Robert's entire reign sucks in comparison to the peace and prosperity of the majority of Aerys' reign).

[dariopatke]

Not sure what the Lannister-Martell marriage idea between the Princess and Joanna has anything to do with anything. That's an isolated Lannister-Martell issue.

In general, marriages between houses from different regions are not that uncommon. Just look at all the spouses of Walder Frey and many of his children. There is a certain tendency among the great houses to marry their own bannermen, but it is also not uncommon to marry somebody from a different region.

The very idea that there was some vast conspiracy going on between multiple great houses you can actually uncover by following various marriages or attempted marriages makes no sense. If such a thing existed, then the lords involved in all that would have to have been a lot closer than they actually were, and subsequently the Rebellion would never have happened.

There are people suggesting that those conspirators wanted to replace the Targaryens with Steffon or Robert but that doesn't make any sense. Steffon and Aerys were friends, and Robert certainly would have been a worse king than Rhaegar in any possible scenario - perhaps a better king than Aerys, but in light of AGoT even that is in doubt (Robert was throughout better than Aerys in his last years, but by comparison Robert's entire reign sucks in comparison to the peace and prosperity of the majority of Aerys' reign).

lannister and martell marriage for me are more like something between two best female friends. Not that political. Tywin had zero interest in it. 

What about Jaime Lysa arrangement?

If maestar were behind this, houses didnt need to be so close, only close enough.

Steffon wouldnt accept that, like if you told Ned to get rid of Robert.

Have you noticed that Tywin almost married his children to Tullys and Martells, families who now hate him and were in war with him? And they should have been closest allies.

Frey is tottaly another story, he is that guy that wants to have someone in every family in Westeros and whenever war eurupts he will have his offspring in both sides.

I believe that Rickard had a role in that but he didnt start all of that, certanly.