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I think Jon vs Dany is the real dance of dragons


I_eat_unicorns

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13 minutes ago, Pancakes1800 said:

The original outline for starters.  He's made comments on that if the show did a movie at the very end to wrap things up the big budget would help because "those dragons get real big".  Course statement 2 works for both arguments, but given that a Jon v. Dany end game is stupid and makes zero sense narrative wise I go with Dany helps fight Others.  I know outline has changed in a lot of ways but the same main structure is still there.  War of the Five Kings-----> Dance of Dragons----->War vs Others.  My interpretation though.  

Dany is clearly being set up as the antagonist in that first draft. The Dance of Dragons is a Dothraki "invasion". GRRM also says that the only thing that stands between the WW and humanity is a "handful of men" and that his last book will focus on that.

We might still have the "huge climax" as promised, but imo, it's doesn't work to separate all conflicts into clear cut time-frames. The WW are not going to wait on fAegon to finish his conquest, the north is not going to wait on Dany to turn up, etc. etc.

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Could be on to something, most people think they will join up but how boring is that?

 

Hero vs Hero would have fans going crazy all over the world. Much more interesting. It would create a rift between fans, team Jon vs Team Dany and where the hell would Tyrion be in all of this? Also there Littlefinger and Varys to consider.. and the Ironmen etc etc

 

I'm all for it. Breaking tropes 101

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Could be on to something, most people think they will join up but how boring is that?

 

Hero vs Hero would have fans going crazy all over the world. Much more interesting. It would create a rift between fans, team Jon vs Team Dany and where the hell would Tyrion be in all of this? Also there Littlefinger and Varys to consider.. and the Ironmen etc etc

 

I'm all for it. Breaking tropes 101

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Could be on to something, most people think they will join up but how boring is that?

 

Hero vs Hero would have fans going crazy all over the world. Much more interesting. It would create a rift between fans, team Jon vs Team Dany and where the hell would Tyrion be in all of this? Also there Littlefinger and Varys to consider.. and the Ironmen etc etc

 

I'm all for it. Breaking tropes 101

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1 hour ago, Greymoon said:

Dany is clearly being set up as the antagonist in that first draft. The Dance of Dragons is a Dothraki "invasion". GRRM also says that the only thing that stands between the WW and humanity is a "handful of men" and that his last book will focus on that.

We might still have the "huge climax" as promised, but imo, it's doesn't work to separate all conflicts into clear cut time-frames. The WW are not going to wait on fAegon to finish his conquest, the north is not going to wait on Dany to turn up, etc. etc.

"The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax."

I'd say Dany is still being set up as an antagonist to some particular characters such as Arianne, fAegon, Dorne, maybe Euron, etc.  She'll be invading with Dragons, Dothraki, Unsullied, Freed Slaves, all under the banner of R'hllor and she'll look like an usurper going to war against fAegon so she won't look like a conquering hero.  Earlier you accused me of having 2 books about the War vs the Others( I made no such claim) now it looks like you are doing the same thing.

11 hours ago, Greymoon said:

Memory, Sorrow and Thorn is a fantasy series as well, and it has more fantasy in it than asoiaf. Not a good argument. We expect 8 books, we've had five so far. Five books that deal with a war of succession. You are telling me that is not the main topic of asoiaf? if the war for dawn is the main topic, then there's some problems with how much time GRRM spend on the war of the five kings and its aftermath.

Similarly, if Dany just abandons Slaver's bay after burning Meereen, then her whole narrative up until now makes absolutely no sense. The end game is not the war for the dawn. There's not going to be a zombie apocalypse. There's going to be men fighting each other and making awful decisions, while the WW will continue or increase their efforts to subjugate humanity the way they've always done - by raiding, by staying in the shadows, by staying invisible and making the enemy fear them.

You know the threat is there, because its cold and the night is never ending. But you don't see it. The men disappear and you can't do anything to stop it....and many of those that aren't in the north and haven't met the enemy face to face, won't belief the threat exists at all.

 

Here you say that there will be 8 books, yet that would make it seem there will be a slower pace.  Yet you said that the Others will not wait around which would suggest they will being their attack early in TWOW.  Which is it? What is the timeline going to look like?

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21 minutes ago, Pancakes1800 said:

"The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax."

I'd say Dany is still being set up as an antagonist to some particular characters such as Arianne, fAegon, Dorne, maybe Euron, etc.  She'll be invading with Dragons, Dothraki, Unsullied, Freed Slaves, all under the banner of R'hllor and she'll look like an usurper going to war against fAegon so she won't look like a conquering hero.  Earlier you accused me of having 2 books about the War vs the Others( I made no such claim) now it looks like you are doing the same thing.

Here you say that there will be 8 books, yet that would make it seem there will be a slower pace.  Yet you said that the Others will not wait around which would suggest they will being their attack early in TWOW.  Which is it? What is the timeline going to look like?

eight, seven, I've lost count tbh. What slow pace?

What I don't see happening is, like I already said, is Aegon conquering, then Dany conquering, then war againts the WW...And all the while the northerners just twiddle their thumbs waiting for the mother of dragons, while slavers bay rots on its own.

There's been too much build up in the east for Dany to return to Westeros right now. There's been too much build up in the north for the northerners not to rise up in rebellion soon. And there's been too much build up in the south for the Lannister to stay on the IT much longer.

I expect

FIRST

In westeros:

- Aegon to conquer the Stormlands up to the IT

- the Vale to join the war

- the Bolton's and Frey to be toppled by northerners

- the riverlands to be freed

In essos:

- a conquest of the dothraki sea,

- a reconquering of meereen

- a subjugation of the other slaver cities

LATER

- a victorious Dany to land in Westeros

- a victorious Aegon to deny her the throne

- civil unrest to start up in Dorne

- Aegon becoming dragon food

- an attempt by Dany to subjugate Aegon's loyalist

- Aegon's loyalists putting their own king forward: Jon, son of Rhaegar

and SIMULTANEOUSLY

- the north under attack by WW

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19 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

eight, seven, I've lost count tbh. What slow pace?

What I don't see happening is, like I already said, is Aegon conquering, then Dany conquering, then war againts the WW...And all the while the northerners just twiddle their thumbs waiting for the mother of dragons, while slavers bay rots on its own.

There's been too much build up in the east for Dany to return to Westeros right now. There's been too much build up in the north for the northerners not to rise up in rebellion soon. And there's been too much build up in the south for the Lannister to stay on the IT much longer.

I expect

FIRST

In westeros:

- Aegon to conquer the Stormlands up to the IT

- the Vale to join the war

- the Bolton's and Frey to be toppled by northerners

- the riverlands to be freed

In essos:

- a conquest of the dothraki sea,

- a reconquering of meereen

- a subjugation of the other slaver cities

LATER

- a victorious Dany to land in Westeros

- a victorious Aegon to deny her the throne

- civil unrest to start up in Dorne

- Aegon becoming dragon food

- an attempt by Dany to subjugate Aegon's loyalist

- Aegon's loyalists putting their own king forward: Jon, son of Rhaegar

and SIMULTANEOUSLY

- the north under attack by WW

Well if there are 8 books then there will be a slower pace than if there are 7 books.  There is plenty that can happen in the North while the other storylines happen.  Here is what I think happens.

 

North

-Stannis defeats Roose in the Battle in the Ice, but Ramsay takes the remaining Bolton troops and heads to the Dreadfort.

-Stannis allows Asha and Theon to go back to the Iron Islands for a second Kingsmoot.

-Jon is revived by Mel and takes her along with Selyse, Shireen, and the Wildlings to Winterfell.

-Jon takes Wildlings, Mountain Clans, and other Northmen to attack Ramsay at the Dreadfort

-Jon kills Ramsay at the Dreadfort.

-Sansa, LF, and the Vale arrive in the North

-Eventually Stannis will burn Shireen and die vs the Others, but I am not 100% when this happens yet.

-By the end of TWOW, Jon will be the de facto ruler of the North either through Robb's will or with Rickon as a figure head. 

Rest of Westeros

-Aegon takes Stormlands and marries Arianne.

-With new allies fAegon saves the Citadel from Ironborn(Euron isn't there he is in Slaver's Bay)

-Aegon gains support of houses in the Reach including Tarly and Rowan.

-Aegon marches on KL and wins.  Jaime kills Cersei.  Jaime escapes to CR.

-Aegon tries to build alliances with the newly shaped Westeros.

Essos

-Dany rounds up the Dothraki and binds them to her.

-Dany arrives in the Meereen after the Battle of Fire.  She quickly resolves any thing that needs to be resolved. 

-She burns Meereen to the ground, takes her army and heads to Westeros.

-Dany makes quick stops in Volantis and Pentos.  In Volantis she helps the slaves rebel and gains the Volantis fleet, and in Pentos she holds up her deal with the Tattered Prince.

-Dany lands on Dragonstone.

 

All of the above happens in TWOW, but some of the following could happen late TWOW or early ADOS. 

-Wall falls

-fAegon and Dany go to war.

-Dany wins.  fAegon, Arianne, a lot of Dorne and a lot of other people die, etc.

-Dany gets word about the fall of the Wall and heads North.

-Characters interact, stuff happens, yadda, yadda, yadda

-Others are eventually defeated.

-Resolution for the rest of the story lines that need it. 

There will be some overlap with the War vs the Other and Aegon vs Dany, but there wont be full out war on both fronts at the same time. 

BTW, that final battle will happen at Winterfell, too much foreshadowing for it not to happen. 

 

Course there are still characters like Arya, Bran, and Sam that will get chapters and take up time. 

A Jon vs Dany just doesn't make sense.  Are you saying Jon defeats the Others then fights Dany? Or he leaves the fight against the Others to fight Dany? Neither make much sense story wise. 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Greymoon said:

Dany is clearly being set up as the antagonist in that first draft. The Dance of Dragons is a Dothraki "invasion". GRRM also says that the only thing that stands between the WW and humanity is a "handful of men" and that his last book will focus on that.

We might still have the "huge climax" as promised, but imo, it's doesn't work to separate all conflicts into clear cut time-frames. The WW are not going to wait on fAegon to finish his conquest, the north is not going to wait on Dany to turn up, etc. etc.

Really?  I thought the first draft (spoiler tagging just in case)

 

Spoiler

had Dany taking the throne at the end of the first book after scourging the Lannisters and then turning a United Westeros north to deal with the threat of the WW

 

so it's not really antagonist - to the heroes anyway, since she's presumably meet up with characters like Tyrion, Jon, Arya, bran etc when she heads north. 

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10 hours ago, Pancakes1800 said:

A Jon vs Dany just doesn't make sense.  Are you saying Jon defeats the Others then fights Dany? Or he leaves the fight against the Others to fight Dany? Neither make much sense story wise. 
 

As I said in an earlier post, there's foreshadowing for Dany vs Jon to happen. First of, there's Dany's vision, where she battles the usurper and the usurper is armored in ice. This parallels a later dream by Jon, where he is armored in black ice.

But more than Dany vs Jon, it's actually Aegon & Jon that is foreshadowed, imo. Just take the dragons. Rhaegal is regal, kingly. fAegon, with his Valyrian features has the look of a Targaryen, of a king. The dragon is green. Green is repeatedly associated to deception (there's a whole thread on that) and it was the color of Aegon II during the dance. Rhaegal was named after Rhaegar Targaryen, the eldest brother of two. Aegon, son of Rhaegar, would be the eldest brother of two.

Lastly, Rhaegal is the one who killed Quentyn Martell, so he is responsible for the loss of the Dornish support. Chances are, Aegon will get the support of Dorne and Dany won't. Unless we can expect civil unrest in dorne, which is, imo, likely to happen, especially after Dany turns up.

Viserion, the white dragon, is associated to Jon. They both get hurt at the neck in consecutive chapter in DwD. The white dragon on black is the personal sigil of Brynden Rivers, a bastard Targaryen with first men blood, former lord commander of the Night's Watch - many parallels to Jon. Jon's personal sigil, as things currently stand, would be a white direwolf on black, mirroring Brynden's.

Viserion was named after Viserys Targaryen, the younger brother of two. Jon, is the second son, the younger brother of two. Out of Dany's three dragons, which one is the odd one out? Two are named after brothers, heirs of the Targaryen dynasty. Two are locked up together. One is named after a Khal. Viserion and Rhaegal are pals. Drogon is left out.

Still don't see the slower pace. There's plenty to do and write about. In your scenario, the north rises up on its own/with Stannis and that's that, while I imagine that the North will bind itself to Aegon's cause. That's what I mean by saying the north is not going to wait on Dany to arrive. They will bind themselves to a cause well before she gets there.

From then on, can you see how there could be a conflict of interest if Dany is responsible for Aegon's death? Aegon is the king they chose, the one that "freed" the realm, and Dany turns up and calls him a pretender and burns him to crisps? That will not endear her to anyone, and certainly not to Aegon's own "brother".

Another poster said it make for an interesting twist if two fan favorites are up against each other, and I agree with that sentiment.

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9 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Really?  I thought the first draft (spoiler tagging just in case)

 

Hidden Content

 

so it's not really antagonist - to the heroes anyway, since she's presumably meet up with characters like Tyrion, Jon, Arya, bran etc when she heads north. 

I don't recall reading that version, tbh. I've been looking for it, can't find it anymore, besides the first page where she's called an invader.

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3 hours ago, Greymoon said:

I don't recall reading that version, tbh. I've been looking for it, can't find it anymore, besides the first page where she's called an invader.

They're talking about a short publisher's blurb that summarized TWOW back when it was still a trilogy. It's this one, which is in the heresies thread:

Quote

Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.

 

it seems to pickup after George's 1993 letter left off.

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1 hour ago, Joan Jett said:

That "wolf and lion hunt together" summary is fake. Completely different from the Harper Collins letter. 

https://m.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2kfwlt/spoilers_all_winds_of_winter_product_page_and/

Right. GRRM has disclaimed it.

Quote

July 21, 2002
AMAZON SYNOPSIS
My question is, do you support what it says here, is this synopis real, or approved by you? Or just something Amazon made up? I'd really appreciate some clarification about this. It sounds great but the spelling errors (Starfell, Danerys) don't seem too "Martinish" or whoever does your synopsis normally.

Don't believe anything you read on Amazon... about plot details, page count, release dates, any of it. I don't know where they get this stuff.

SUBMITTED BY CALIBANDAR 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/P45 (it's the 7th entry)

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5 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Right. GRRM has disclaimed it.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/P45 (it's the 7th entry)

Ok sorry for spreading misinformation.  I heard it from someone else on the forum but can't remember where they got it from.  Guess it was this?  

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On 1/18/2016 at 9:31 PM, LongRider said:

That's it, it all boils down to the age old question....Who really is in control of the remote?   That's what really matters.

If there was ever a cause worth fighting for:

Dany: The remote was purchased by my family. So it's mine. And I say, we're watching The Wild Bunch.

Jon: Yeah, well, it was my family too. So there...

Dany: Oh, I forgot about that. Oh but wait, you're a bastard, so you don't have any rights to it. Too bad.

Jon: Yeah, well, your, or my family, or whatever lost it. So you're claim to it, isn't really that good. So we're watching Pretty Woman.

Dany: Now, that's bullshit. Your sorry ass uncle and his little drunk friend usurped it from my father.

Jon: Yeah, well that's only because your crazy dad made everyone watch Justin Beiber videos. And nobody, nobody, ought to have to endure that.

Dany: Yeah, well, you might even have a fuckin point if Robert hadn't turned the channel to Jerry Springer. And the worst part is that your uncle helped him do it.

Jon: Now that's not true. Ned didn't want to watch that. Robert turned that on because he was told by Jon to do it because that's what Tywin wanted to watch, and Tywin wouldn't shut the fuck up about it. And Tywin was the one paying the cable bill.

Dany: Yeah well, Robert should have never listen to Jon because of Tywin. All that trouble just to turn on Jerry Springer. Fucking LOL.

Jon: StIll, better than watching Justin Beiber.

Dany: Ok, like whatever.....Jerry Springer, what a joke. This would have all been better if Rhaegar had just gotten the remote from dad and turned on the NFL playoffs, like he intended to, instead of getting distracted by your mother.

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12 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

If there was ever a cause worth fighting for:

Dany: The remote was purchased by my family. So it's mine. And I say, we're watching The Wild Bunch.

Jon: Yeah, well, it was my family too. So there...

Dany: Oh, I forgot about that. Oh but wait, you're a bastard, so you don't have any rights to it. Too bad.

Jon: Yeah, well, your, or my family, or whatever lost it. So you're claim to it, isn't really that good. So we're watching Pretty Woman.

Dany: Now, that's bullshit. Your sorry ass uncle and his little drunk friend usurped it from my father.

Jon: Yeah, well that's only because your crazy dad made everyone watch Justin Beiber videos. And nobody, nobody, ought to have to endure that.

Dany: Yeah, well, you might even have a fuckin point if Robert hadn't turned the channel to Jerry Springer. And the worst part is that your uncle helped him do it.

Jon: Now that's not true. Ned didn't want to watch that. Robert turned that on because he was told by Jon to do it because that's what Tywin wanted to watch, and Tywin wouldn't shut the fuck up about it. And Tywin was the one paying the cable bill.

Dany: Yeah well, Robert should have never listen to Jon because of Tywin. All that trouble just to turn on Jerry Springer. Fucking LOL.

Jon: StIll, better than watching Justin Beiber.

Dany: Ok, like whatever.....Jerry Springer, what a joke. This would have all been better if Rhaegar had just gotten the remote from dad and turned on the NFL playoffs, like he intended to, instead of getting distracted by your mother.

This is exactly why I ship it. 

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