Masculinity

[MerenthaClone]

26 minutes ago, Wise Fool said:

Ah, but I never claimed that having a good cry, holding each other for comfort, or being called buttercup are actually unmasculine behaviors or traits. Did I? Let alone feminine. Because you see, I don't believe they are.

You do.

You fully intended it to be perceived as an attack, don't pull this shit.  Knowing that it would be received as an attack and using it that way then making yourself blameless is shitty.  Just because I don't think "bitch" is an insult (and in some contexts it isn't!) doesn't mean that I can walk up to someone, call them a bitch, then smugly tell them that its their fault for being offended.  

 

[peterbound]

45 minutes ago, Wise Fool said:

Ah, but I never claimed that having a good cry, holding each other for comfort, or being called buttercup are actually unmasculine behaviors or traits. Did I? Let alone feminine. Because you see, I don't believe they are.

You do.

Oh sure, it was indeed an attack, but it wasn't on your or Stego or TKS's actual masculinity. It was on your ideas about masculinity, and it worked wonderfully, I might add.

Males, whose beliefs can be generally categorized as "MRA" (although there may be many good diamonds in this rough) or more specifically anti-feminist, believe masculinity is to never cry, to never hold one another, to not be named buttercup. This assumption tends to underlie their opinions and it can be brought out, unfortunately, with little effort.

I mean hasn't TKS bragged on this forum about how many women he's picked up? Do you honestly expect people to believe you and he are on the side against sexism?

Sure, I've suggested you boys are weak and whiny, but those are universally negative traits. It was you who decided to assign them to "feminine," and in fact for you to think of feminine as the opposite of masculine. Personally I would describe 'masculine' traits as simply growing up. The fully actualized, mature male, not the sexist immature male who can't seem to stop thinking women, and specifically feminism, are out to get him.

So no, your appeal to emotion that I am somehow "feminizing" TKS or Stego or you for that matter is not a valid argument. And by equating "weak" or "having a good cry" with "feminizing" or non-masculine, you've revealed that you believe in gender stereotypes.

Yeah, I'm still not sure you've got this whole social interacting thing down.  Aren't you a waiter or something?  Shouldn't you be better at understanding how people react to things.  

 

And yeah, super deflection, and no accountability fella.  Not something a mature male would pull, but i'm still not convinced you even know what that shit means.  

[karaddin]

53 minutes ago, Wise Fool said:

I mean hasn't TKS bragged on this forum about how many women he's picked up? Do you honestly expect people to believe you and he are on the side against sexism?
 

Think you are confusing TKS with Prince Alexander, TKS has waxed poetic about how he can't get published due to feminists, not bragged about picking up women (at least as far as I've seen).

[Wise Fool]

58 minutes ago, MerenthaClone said:

You fully intended it to be perceived as an attack, don't pull this shit.  Knowing that it would be received as an attack and using it that way then making yourself blameless is shitty.  Just because I don't think "bitch" is an insult (and in some contexts it isn't!) doesn't mean that I can walk up to someone, call them a bitch, then smugly tell them that its their fault for being offended.  

 

Indeed. An attack on the toxic anti-feminist angry male ideology and the whiny, sexist character that drives it. For which I do not apologize and take full credit! I do believe ideas are fair game around here, are they not? As indeed, Stego and The Killer Snark have been attacking feminism since the moment they came into this thread.

I did not use any epithets and my word choices are important. I haven't just walked up to some random person and called them a mean name. Stop playing the victim card. This kind of thing is exactly what I'm talking about.

ETA: to Karaddin: OK, I might be wrong about TKS bragging about how many women he's had sex with. Might be he only had his whinge about feminist "misandry" and how they use words like "toxic" to describe the very ideology he's defending and arguing in favor of here. Well, that's why I ask questions. Not that it matters much.

ETA:  Peterbound: no, I'm not a waiter. (Gee: would you consider that unmasculine? What if I was a gay waiter, would you consider me less of a man? Or are you only prejudiced according to social class?) And I'm not here to "socially interact" if by that you mean make friends, have a chat, or unwind. If you are trying to do that then I think this is the wrong venue and certainly the wrong thread.

But of course this is a debate, because you just said it was. At the least, an argument of words and ideas. And if that's the case you might want to try a bit more reading and a bit more writing. Because simply suggesting that I don't know how to socially interact or that I'm a waiter or that I don't understand people isn't enough. What is it I'm "not understanding" about people's reactions, specifically? Explain yourself, if you can be bothered to. You're the one who called this a debate. Act like it.

[ElizabethB.]

WiseFool, do you think that you are in any position to judge anyone after making crude rape jokes in the European politics thread? 

And you are the one who came up with the silly who said what where. 

[Lyanna Stark]

11 hours ago, Wise Fool said:

Indeed. An attack on the toxic anti-feminist angry male ideology and the whiny, sexist character that drives it. For which I do not apologize and take full credit! I do believe ideas are fair game around here, are they not? As indeed, Stego and The Killer Snark have been attacking feminism since the moment they came into this thread.

I did not use any epithets and my word choices are important. I haven't just walked up to some random person and called them a mean name. Stop playing the victim card. This kind of thing is exactly what I'm talking about.

 

While defending feminism is a worthwhile goal, it matters how it is done.

For instance, Stego has long promoted women to get strong and fit, and nevermind the silly stereotypes that women shouldn't attempt things that makes them physically muscular, something which is traditionally "unfeminine". In that regard, I'd say he is acting in a feminist manner. But it depends what you classify as "feminist" and he may not personally agree with that label. Sidenote, perhaps, but it illustrates that feminism, just as the idea of masculinity, are complex subjects, and sometimes there is no black and white, either/or situation.

When it comes to mocking or belittling men with language that implies effeminacy or feminisation, while being common, it relies on the feminine being a net negative. Let me clarify:

The purpose of using phrases like "cry like a little girl" or "throw like a girl" or, in your case, use "have a good cry" is to imply that the people engaging in these activities are not masculine. They are effeminate or feminine in their expression and behaviour, and since this is used in a mocking or belittling way, it means the connotations are negative.

Julia Serano lays this out really well in "Whipping Girl" where she describes how throw the fear of femininity and effeminacy ties into sexism, and often internalised sexism. In other words: we have a hard time seeing in ourselves when we have per-conceived notions regarding how we view, and above all, how we value different genders. As soon as we use phrases like "that is so gay", or "he throws like a girl" then we've engaged in it. This is the same source which gave us all the jokes about how women can't drive, about stupid blondes, about how pretty women are always dumb, etc. It puts a value on femininity, and that value is always lower than on masculinity, such as it is represented in our culture.***

This is nothing to be particularly ashamed or saddened about, since it's common, and most feminists have probably engaged in it as well, before realising what they were doing. However, for the second time this week, allow me to paraphrase Audre Lorde: The Master's tools cannot be used to dismantle the Master's house.

If we wish to seriously fight against sexism and make our society more free of it, then we cannot utilise sexist language to put others down, nor can we defend a feminist cause while being unaware of our internalised devaluing of femininity. This is not playing the victim card either, it's pointing out inconsistency.

It might cheer you up too that in this, you are not alone. Famous feminists like Gloria Steinem recently got caught using some pretty unpleasant sexist language to put people she disagreed with in place.

*** and this sort of puts us back at the beginning, with the narrow definition of masculinity, and why it is perilous to fall outside the accepted model of masculinity. Outside it lurks femininity and effeminacy, and according to sexist norms, that is something to be feared. (And really, read Serano. She's clear, concise and a biologist.)

 

 

EDIT: grammar

 

[Wise Fool]

4 hours ago, Lyanna Stark said:

While defending feminism is a worthwhile goal, it matters how it is done.

For instance, Stego has long promoted women to get strong and fit, and nevermind the silly stereotypes that women shouldn't attempt things that makes them physically muscular, something which is traditionally "unfeminine". In that regard, I'd say he is acting in a feminist manner. But it depends what you classify as "feminist" and he may not personally agree with that label. Sidenote, perhaps, but it illustrates that feminism, just as the idea of masculinity, are complex subjects, and sometimes there is no black and white, either/or situation.

When it comes to mocking or belittling men with language that implies effeminacy or feminisation, while being common, it relies on the feminine being a net negative. Let me clarify:

The purpose of using phrases like "cry like a little girl" or "throw like a girl" or, in your case, use "have a good cry" is to imply that the people engaging in these activities are not masculine. They are effeminate or feminine in their expression and behaviour, and since this is used in a mocking or belittling way, it means the connotations are negative.

Julia Serano lays this out really well in "Whipping Girl" where she describes how throw the fear of femininity and effeminacy ties into sexism, and often internalised sexism. In other words: we have a hard time seeing in ourselves when we have per-conceived notions regarding how we view, and above all, how we value different genders. As soon as we use phrases like "that is so gay", or "he throws like a girl" then we've engaged in it. This is the same source which gave us all the jokes about how women can't drive, about stupid blondes, about how pretty women are always dumb, etc. It puts a value on femininity, and that value is always lower than on masculinity, such as it is represented in our culture.***

This is nothing to be particularly ashamed or saddened about, since it's common, and most feminists have probably engaged in it as well, before realising what they were doing. However, for the second time this week, allow me to paraphrase Audre Lorde: The Master's tools cannot be used to dismantle the Master's house.

If we wish to seriously fight against sexism and make our society more free of it, then we cannot utilise sexist language to put others down, nor can we defend a feminist cause while being unaware of our internalised devaluing of femininity. This is not playing the victim card either, it's pointing out inconsistency.

It might cheer you up too that in this, you are not alone. Famous feminists like Gloria Steinem recently got caught using some pretty unpleasant sexist language to put people she disagreed with in place.

*** and this sort of puts us back at the beginning, with the narrow definition of masculinity, and why it is perilous to fall outside the accepted model of masculinity. Outside it lurks femininity and effeminacy, and according to sexist norms, that is something to be feared. (And really, read Serano. She's clear, concise and a biologist.)

 

 

EDIT: grammar

But again, I didn't say that "have a good cry" was feminine, or even implied it. I did certainly imply it was a negative thing to do, because in this case it is - having a cry because people aren't tolerating their virulent anti-feminist crusade on the internet, wah. Has nothing to do with gender stereotyping: that aspect was assumed by those who DO have internalized sexism.

If they did not have internalized sexism then "have a good cry" would not immediately call to mind "femininity." Again. I did not tie these two concepts together. Nestor did. I gave him the rope, but he tied the knot.

Some people - angry males who are opposed to feminism and think women are "misandrists" who are oppressing and victimizing them - have wrong, harmful ideas about masculinity that are inextricably linked to misogyny and anti-feminism. That's my point and I'm going to continue not apologizing for having made it, nor for the apparently drunk likes of peterbound being unable to get it.

[peterbound]

14 minutes ago, Wise Fool said:

But again, I didn't say that "have a good cry" was feminine, or even implied it. I did certainly imply it was a negative thing to do, because in this case it is - having a cry because people aren't tolerating their virulent anti-feminist crusade on the internet, wah. Has nothing to do with gender stereotyping: that aspect was assumed by those who DO have internalized sexism.

If they did not have internalized sexism then "have a good cry" would not immediately call to mind "femininity." Again. I did not tie these two concepts together. Nestor did. I gave him the rope, but he tied the knot.

Some people - angry males who are opposed to feminism and think women are "misandrists" who are oppressing and victimizing them - have wrong, harmful ideas about masculinity that are inextricably linked to misogyny and anti-feminism. That's my point and I'm going to continue not apologizing for having made it, nor for the apparently drunk likes of peterbound being unable to get it.

I don't drink. 

 

And you know what you meant when you said it, you feed into that shit, all the while attempting to sound enlightened.  Keep trying man.  Your base instincts and insecurities keep getting in the way of you becoming anything better in life.  

Go back and read all my posts.  I never say shit like 'go have a good cry' or anything that might degrade femininity. You do, a lot.  I know you are trying to sound controversial, but you just sound silly.  Fuck man, I was raised with four sisters, and am married to a bad ass military woman.  I'm all about female empowerment.  I don't think that that should come at the expense of me continuing the idea of what I consider a man is though.  The two don't have to be in complete opposition of one another, and 'masculine' doesn't need to be a curse word.  When you paint it as such (and you do) you create a weird opposition that pits the two worlds against one another.  They overlap, and build each other up, not tear the shit down.  That's how i'll teach my son to be 'a good man', and to live up to the values that both respect femininity, and empower masculinity, and for me, there's nothing wrong with that model. 

 

eta: And wholly fucking deflection man!  Own up to what you said, you're acting like a child again, not an adult.  

[TerraPrime]

[mod hat]

Please stick to the topic and lay off the personal stuff.

Thanks.

 

[/mod hat]

[Wise Fool]

Peterbound: And once again, "have a good cry" doesn't "degrade femininity." It's not related to femininity at all. You're the one tying those concepts together at all because you have unhealthy assumptions about femininity. In this case, that crying is feminine. 

It's not. You perceive an attack on your masculinity as an attack on femininity because your ideas about masculinity and femininity both are fucking wrong. You think it's manly not to cry. And you think it's womanly to cry. That's my point and you are still making it for me.

[Summerfell]

1 minute ago, Wise Fool said:

Peterbound: And once again, "have a good cry" doesn't "degrade femininity." It's not related to femininity at all. You're the one tying those concepts together at all because you have unhealthy assumptions about femininity. In this case, that crying is feminine. 

It's not. You perceive an attack on your masculinity as an attack on femininity because your ideas about masculinity and femininity both are fucking wrong. You think it's manly not to cry. And you think it's womanly to cry. That's my point and you are still making it for me.

"Having a good cry" or calling someone "buttercup" is not inherently negative, though. The only reason it's an attack in the first place is because of how it has historically been associated to femininity and how femininity is viewed as a negative in society. You don't get to pretend like that history of usage doesn't exist and that saying a person is "having a good cry" is an insult just because it somehow magically is independently of it's gendered usage. 

[Magnar of Skagos]

Reading this thread is making me pro-Ebola.

[Lyanna Stark]

4 minutes ago, Hrokkan of Skagos said:

Reading this thread is making me pro-Ebola.

How so? Masculinity means you catch Ebola?

[Magnar of Skagos]

9 minutes ago, Lyanna Stark said:

How so? Masculinity means you catch Ebola?

Can you clarify? I am unsure what you are asking.

[Wise Fool]

11 minutes ago, Summerfell said:

"Having a good cry" or calling someone "buttercup" is not inherently negative, though. The only reason it's an attack in the first place is because of how it has historically been associated to femininity and how femininity is viewed as a negative in society. You don't get to pretend like that history of usage doesn't exist and that saying a person is "having a good cry" is an insult just because it somehow magically is independently of it's gendered usage. 

Telling someone to "go cry" is negative. I mean that's the sort of thing you say to the other team after yours scores one over them. It's taunting and no one likes to be taunted. It's an attack. And "buttercup" is a cutesy pet nickname with a similar "history" and context. Really, if you don't believe me, say these things to random strangers you meet, see how well it's received.

It has nothing to do with actual femininity or actual masculinity. Only the wrong, stupid ideas about gender that certain people have internalized and are defending. The assumptions

This thread is about masculinity, by the way. One wonders why a bunch of angry males are bringing up "Radical Feminism" and how much they dislike "misandry" in this thread. One wonders why the one guy who identifies as a feminist is being attacked by those angry males. Just one of those mysteries in life.

Am I mean? Am I smug? Am I self-righteous? Yep. Got me! But I also happen to be right. When it comes to matters of principle I would rather be right than liked. Which is fortunate, given that these mad little boys don't like me very much. No one likes to have their shit called out.

[Summerfell]

21 minutes ago, Wise Fool said:

Telling someone to "go cry" is negative. I mean that's the sort of thing you say to the other team after yours scores one over them. It's taunting and no one likes to be taunted. It's an attack. And "buttercup" is a cutesy pet nickname with a similar "history" and context. Really, if you don't believe me, say these things to random strangers you meet, see how well it's received.

It has nothing to do with actual femininity or actual masculinity. Only the wrong, stupid ideas about gender that certain people have internalized and are defending. The assumptions

You haven't provided any reasons for why telling someone to go cry is inherently negative, only that it is widely considered a negative by many people. The reason it's perceived as an attack or a taunt at all is because people have internalized sexism and believe these words are thus emasculating edit: which they view as a negative because they view femininity as bad.

[Lyanna Stark]

25 minutes ago, Hrokkan of Skagos said:

Can you clarify? I am unsure what you are asking.

 

Make a proper point or stop trolling.

19 minutes ago, Wise Fool said:

Telling someone to "go cry" is negative. I mean that's the sort of thing you say to the other team after yours scores one over them. It's taunting and no one likes to be taunted. It's an attack. And "buttercup" is a cutesy pet nickname with a similar "history" and context. Really, if you don't believe me, say these things to random strangers you meet, see how well it's received.

It has nothing to do with actual femininity or actual masculinity. Only the wrong, stupid ideas about gender that certain people have internalized and are defending. The assumptions

This thread is about masculinity, by the way. One wonders why a bunch of angry males are bringing up "Radical Feminism" and how much they dislike "misandry" in this thread. One wonders why the one guy who identifies as a feminist is being attacked by those angry males. Just one of those mysteries in life.

Am I mean? Am I smug? Am I self-righteous? Yep. Got me! But I also happen to be right. When it comes to matters of principle I would rather be right than liked. Which is fortunate, given that these mad little boys don't like me very much. No one likes to have their shit called out.

First bolded: Femininity or masculinity are both terminology we add meaning to. So the "wrong, stupid ideas about gender" isn't something some people have internalised, they are are a part of our culture and society, deeply ingrained. Our perception of what constitutes masculine qualities is not something you can change overnight, or just shed, like a fur.

Second bolded: Saying you are a feminist in itself means comparatively little. I've seen people who are against abortion and who want women who have abortions locked into asylums and tried for murder. While claiming to be feminists. What you say outside of the sentence "I identify as a feminist" matters. It matters a lot.

Third bolded: Are you sure that you are right? I would perhaps be less sure unless a large body of academic research was on my side. While it's a nice thing to be principled, it's worth looking at how one communicates those principles, too.

 

[Theda Baratheon]

14 hours ago, karaddin said:

 

I cant work out this damn site on my phone and cant remember what post of karas I was going to quote now. 

1 hour ago, Hrokkan of Skagos said:

Can you clarify? I am unsure what you are asking.

Shouldn't you clarify to be honest? Being the one who left a pretty inane pseudo misanthropic one liner. There is genuine discussiom that could still be had in this thread without that nonsense and the nasty personal attacks flying around. 

-----

I have been thinking about masculinity and femininity more and more lately...especially as I'm leaving the realm of child and adolescent and firmly moving forward into should-be-adult-by-now-or-at-least-a-little-bit territory and pondering where I am going and who I am. I work in a sort of primarily male group...I wouldn't see male dominated but there are certainly more guys where I work than girls and at the moment I am the only girl there on days I work and I do find people treat me differently, don't say certain things in front me me lest they upset my lady sensibilities HAHAHA honestly one of the blokes called me a lady the other day and I did the most unnattractive snort laugh imaginable. What the fuck does it mean to be a woman? To be feminine? I don't feel at all feminine but I also don't feel masculine whatsoever. I still don't understand how people in thos thread class masculinity and what defining traits they associate with it...I'm rambling...sorry I will continue to just lurk this thread I think...

[Weeping Sore]

To be fair, buttercups are hermaphroditic, like all flowers.

ETA: @Wise Fool- Haven't you learned that boarders with higher post-counts than you must be given their due deference? I mean they've been here since it was just a bunch of people scratching cuneiform onto stone tablets, so who are you to have an opinion? Learn to grovel a little more and you'll do alright.

[Magnar of Skagos]

On 2/9/2016 at 0:41 PM, Lyanna Stark said:

Make a proper point or stop trolling.

 

On 2/9/2016 at 1:28 PM, Theda Baratheon said:

Shouldn't you clarify to be honest? Being the one who left a pretty inane pseudo misanthropic one liner. There is genuine discussiom that could still be had in this thread without that nonsense and the nasty personal attacks flying around. 

Not trolling, I just find it absurd to hear people spewing insults over an online forum regarding a topic such as this. These "nasty personal attacks" that are flying around, are precisely why I see this thread thus far as being quite unproductive, which is what my comment was referring to.

Lyanna, I was genuinely wondering what you meant by the phrase "masculinity means you catch Ebola?" Perhaps it is the wording and I'm not reading it right, or something? I'm not sure. Not trolling, just asking for clarification because I would like to understand your point before replying. No need to get hostile.