Masculinity

[Wise Fool]

What does it mean to be a man? A real man?

What is a "man's man?" What's a "woman's man?"

Are male feminists "gender traitors" as this website claims?

Is feminism a conspiracy that is oppressing and harming men?

I'm a male and I do not feel oppressed or harmed by feminism. I do however feel dismay at gender stereotyping when it is used to inflate the ego and cause conflict or pain. In fact I would classify myself as a feminist, if I may be allowed to do so without being threatened, insulted, stalked, harassed or attacked. Wink wink. (That's the problem with terms like that, these days. The atmosphere is so toxic. People flip the fuck out if you mention certain isms.)

But a lot of guys do. A lot of guys feel that they are less of a man, because women are keeping their manliness down. Because women, you see, conspire to falsely accuse men of rape, or wanting to rape, or participating in rape culture, or being rapey, or simple every day sexism. There are actual persons who are male who believe this to be true: that women are conspiring against them, and part of being a real man is breaking through this feminist programming and inserting your masculine self where it is secretly, of course, desired. Because how could we not be attractive? The masculine energy is confident by nature, one assumes, which is why men often play games of confidence. Strutting. Posturing. There's a hierarchy, and many men feel they are less confident because women have loaded the deck according to their whim, bent the rules to suit their plot, thus depriving rightful achievers from achieving sexual success and therefore social dominance.

Are you one such guy? Do you know any?

I think a lot of men are indeed effete and weak, but not because of feminism or anything remotely like that. Because our society, for whatever reasons, happens to promote a way of thinking and doing that is psychologically unhealthful. Materialism makes us waste resources chasing after baubles which only impoverishes the spirit. Men are not in touch with their masculinity, nor are they in touch with the feminine energy. Materialist philosophy makes hedonism the logical conclusion, and so the pursuit of sex as goal of a game rather than as something sacred dominates the sociology of sex. 

Is a real man supposed to be intimidating, possibly even dangerous? Is his energy capable of violence? Of course it is.

I think real masculinity is about control. There is a powerful force here and it must be controlled and restrained and civil and honorable. But, you see, the social paradigm does not support this. It rewards uncontrolled outbursts of choreographed melodrama.

And those who lack honor are rewarded, unfortunately, if they succeed and often they do.

And those who are uncivil, or even criminal, can get away with it. Even if they are punished, though, usually society can only react too late to them. If we had a society that promoted getting in touch with one's masculine and feminine energy, perhaps there would be fewer mass shootings and rapes and people who would vote for Donald Trump.

What do you think? Is there a place for male feminism, or must it be "men's rights activism?" Can one be a feminist, and also quite masculine? What is masculinity? What's real manliness as opposed to playing pretend?

[Darzin]

Well I think a large part of all this is the changing economy and changing roles. As these stabilize we should see some of this fade.

I am concerned with the internet backlash to feminism. It's contained on the internet for now but it's begun to coalesce into a kind of disturbing ideology calling for the establishment of  gender roles and in some cases calling for revoking women's right to vote. These people in the "manosphere" disturb me a lot more than white supremacists because they seem to be growing in number. See websites like Return of Kings for what I'm talking about there is a whole subculture of loosely connected blogs promoting this kind of thing. Sure it's contianed  on the internet for now, but I'm worried it might spill from there into the real world. 

[Wise Fool]

Well I think a large part of all this is the changing economy and changing roles. As these stabilize we should see some of this fade.

I am concerned with the internet backlash to feminism. It's contained on the internet for now but it's begun to coalesce into a kind of disturbing ideology calling for the establishment of  gender roles and in some cases calling for revoking women's right to vote. These people in the "manosphere" disturb me a lot more than white supremacists because they seem to be growing in number. See websites like Return of Kings for what I'm talking about there is a whole subculture of loosely connected blogs promoting this kind of thing. Sure it's contianed  on the internet for now, but I'm worried it might spill from there into the real world. 

Okay, I'm looking around that site. Really looking. It's disturbing but knowledge is power and truth is God so here we go.

"Athlone is a young man whose background gives him unique insight on sociological and cultural changes that are happening today." I call bullshit. That's the most bullshitty bullshit line I ever heard. That's some resume padding, chest thumping, hopin and prayin shit right there. Why is this guy's background important? Why is his insight unique, what's so bloody special about it? What changes are you yarping on about there, Athlone?

Apparently that site was created by some guy named Roosh Valizadeh. He's the kind of sleazy scumbag who bloviates bitchily that feminists have "penis envy." What noise. What I see is a small man, a weak, insecure man, not confident about himself, not confident about his own sexuality. How could he be? He is a child, almost! Sex is a game to him! People are playthings! Reward system! He thinks masculinity is defined by how many, and how skillfully a man can seduce sexually. There's another term for that, you know. The term is "rape culture." Sexualization of women is constant and unending and merciless and odious. If you do not see it, you are not quite awake. Women aren't tokens to be collected, points to be scored, cards to share. You don't become a man by having sex. Yet Roosh, like so many weak men out there, ultimately hate women, because they only know femininity as a socially crafted concept. Girls have cooties, etc.

Immaturity. That's the real issue here. Many so-called men are merely adult males, they aren't a Man in the sense of being successful, having mastery over oneself and one's body and one's mind and one's spirit, having knowledge and skills applying both to the mundane and the mechanical as to the mystical and metaphysical.

Every man considers himself wise, which is why I who do not consider myself wise take my wisdom from the collective consciousness of other men. Other guys can help me in areas I fail at just like I help them. Why not? Being kind to my fellow human is what it's all about. Being kind, calm, controlled, relaxed, and content. Peaceful. Nonviolent in all manner of ways. But guys like Roosh and Athlone are violent men. Angry men. They are trapped in their egos, blind to the truth, stumbling around a metaphysical paradigm of materialist philosophy. Which is empty noise. Meaningless. Yay, you got some money, got a nice car, got a sound system? Success? I guess? You purchased things. But that is our culture right now. They are violent, not literally so, towards women, who clearly engender in them negative emotional states.

No wonder women have to "de-escalate" so frequently.

Men are adult males driven by animal impulses and social forces to apply violence to the environment in some way. It's scary. If I were a woman, of course I'd de-escalate situations all the time. I would have to. Any male is capable of rape, you see. Just as anyone, male or female, is capable of theft. To commit harm against another is a sin in most religious and social and criminal views. Yet, as mammals with testosterone, male humans can get sexually excited and aggressive at the same time. And this can turn ugly fast, depending on the circumstances. Sure, we're all safe in our first world neighborhood right now. Hopefully? But some guys can get ugly, you can't tell beforehand if they are going to be that sort. It can be frightening, particularly to a woman but even to men who would feel the fear impulse goading them from behind even as they followed the lust and greed and pride.

The real problem, as I see it, is that we as a society do not handle our spirituality and sexuality very well. We are spiritually bankrupt and sexually decadent. People need to awaken.

 

 

[Bonesy]

Being a male feminist requires no effort or consideration.

It only requires you not be a fucking asshole.

[Lily Valley]

WF, I see your question and ask this one thing as I have little time tonight.

Why do you equate "weak" with "effete"?  I have much to say about your OP, but for me it's very late.  I understand you're reaching out primarily to men in this thread, but we will butt in on occasion.

BTW, xoxo, and thank you for starting a very important conversation.

[Wise Fool]

WF, I see your question and ask this one thing as I have little time tonight.

Why do you equate "weak" with "effete"?  I have much to say about your OP, but for me it's very late.  I understand you're reaching out primarily to men in this thread, but we will butt in on occasion.

BTW, xoxo, and thank you for starting a very important conversation.

I don't know. My vocabulary could perhaps use some work.

I appreciate that you appreciate what I am trying to do here.

[Lyanna Stark]

I don't know. My vocabulary could perhaps use some work.
I appreciate that you appreciate what I am trying to do here.

I suggest getting Julia Serano's "Whipping Girl" which deals with a lot of these things. Above all, it shines a light on the narrow definition of acceptable masculinity, how femininity (both in men and women) is devalued and also how femininity is equaled with artifice.

A lot of the shitstain behaviour men do is mere show offs of power, i.e. they do it because they can and because it is condoned by society. It falls within the acceptable range of masculinity, one might say. That doesn't mean it is the only acceptable way of "how to man", but yes, it's certainly interesting that it's more acceptable to cat call and harass women than it is for a man to dress up in feminine clothing while wearing make-up and nail polish.

Julia Serano writes: 

Because femininity is seen as inferior to masculinity, any man who appears "effeminate" or feminized in any way will drastically lose status and respect in society, much more so than those women who act boyish or butch.

and

Unfortunately, I have found that many women fail to appreciate effemimania as a very real and pervasive form of traditional sexism, one that oppressively restricts and undermines feminine gender expression in male-bodied people. 

Serano disagrees that it's about immaturity, but about how men define themselves, and masculinity.

Effemimania also ensures that any male's manhood or masculinity can be brought into question at any moment for even the slightest perceived expression of, or association with, femininity. I would argue that today, the biggest bottleneck in the movement towards gender equity is not so much women's lack of access to what has traditionally been considered the "masculine realm", but rather men's insistence on defining themselves in opposition to women (i.e. their unwillingness to venture into the "feminine realm").

To me, these "MRA" dudes and their follow ons are just the extreme end of this fear. If you constantly define yourself in opposition to femininity and constantly affirm (to yourself) your superiority, what is really going on seems to be a fear that they're just not "manly" enough for the world. It sounds silly, but this sort of silliness has real impact. 

It's also a very real reflection of how our idea of what is an acceptable range for women to be (i.e. the traditional gender expressions for women, what is acceptable looks-wise, career-wise etc.) is getting bigger, while one can argue that the acceptable range for masculinity has not widened in the same fashion. Whether these MRA dudes realise it or not, they are proving a lot of feminist points and theory by their behaviour!

 

[Wise Fool]

Consider the following paragraph, fed to the mindless, frustrated male masses by Roosh.

I personally see little need for a man to work with women, go to school with them, or even maintain asexual relationships with them, especially with women who don’t give him sexual access to her friends. While there are many problems in modern society that are difficult to solve, excising needless social interaction with females outside of sexual relationships is an easy one to fix. Choose to spend your free time with men so your masculinity remains strong and steady

How many ways can a man be wrong? How far up his own ass does this guy have his head? Pretty far, apparently!

This boychild knows nothing of work, for one thing. He knows nothing about being a Man. He is not Awake to his Divine Masculine energy. He's an adult, and he can socialize, but that's about it. The most we can even interact with him is with his ego, which has evolved to protect him from feeling feelings and thinking thoughts! He doesn't see a "need for a man to work with a woman?" He wouldn't vote for Hillary, is what he's saying here! He can vote, he can blog and comment and whatever, but the fact remains that sadly Roosh is not Awake.

That bit about "don't give him sexual access to her friends" though? That's the real creepy part. I mean the real scuzzy, sleazy, disgusting, weak aspect of an immature spoiled brat's character. The idea that he is somehow entitled to couple with women because they're friends of a friend? Reeeeal smooth, that is, Roosh.

I mean that's quite a bit rapey. Rapers go to the Wall. I don't take kindly to guys who treat women poorly.

He who does not know what masculinity even is rants about keeping his masculinity "strong and steady" (ha ha ha ha! Good one, bro) by spending free time with men. While it's true that doing man's work can help one develop masculinity within oneself, this must be man's work. And we men usually get more than enough of that sort of thing in our culture through sports and the school system and the media. What men really must do is get in touch with the Divine Feminine - Wisdom - Sophia, the bride of Christ, within. Shakti. Whatever you want to call this sacred sexuality. This is inner work, and mystic. Men don't do that sort of thing, generally speaking - nobody does! People are blind and dumb and deaf! Distracted by entertainment and flickering screens and social games!

So, so many men are in a kind of hypnotic trance, wandering around in a state of mind in which they are susceptible to any random leader or pack or group or suggestion or whatever. This is why they form organizations of circle jerking like that website, as a way of following the leader, based on the animal instinct. It is very sad and stupid.



 

[ElizabethB.]

That bit about "don't give him sexual access to her friends" though? That's the real creepy part. I mean the real scuzzy, sleazy, disgusting, weak aspect of an immature spoiled brat's character. The idea that he is somehow entitled to couple with women because they're friends of a friend? Reeeeal smooth, that is, Roosh.

I mean that's quite a bit rapey. Rapers go to the Wall. I don't take kindly to guys who treat women poorly.

 

It's rapey? Are you serious? 

[Wise Fool]

It's rapey? Are you serious? 

I am quite serious. Sexual entitlement. Like "sexual access" is an achievement to be unlocked in a game. Boys are playing games and assume they're the fucker. So, there must be a fuckee. Someone. Anyone. Doesn't even matter. Nihilistic self-love! There are guys walking around who think, who literally, honestly believe (the way a cult member believes) that they deserve sexual access and, more to the point, have that as the object of their desires.

[Darzin]

4 hours ago, Lyanna Stark said:

 

It's also a very real reflection of how our idea of what is an acceptable range for women to be (i.e. the traditional gender expressions for women, what is acceptable looks-wise, career-wise etc.) is getting bigger, while one can argue that the acceptable range for masculinity has not widened in the same fashion. Whether these MRA dudes realise it or not, they are proving a lot of feminist points and theory by their behaviour!

 

Yes, they do. But when you argue with them about it they refuse to admit these are feminist points saying the never heard anyone argue for this, as if they read feminist literature. I do think some of it is based on class women have easily moved into middle class white collar jobs, but blue collar working class jobs still follow pretty strict gender lines. How many women work on fishing boats for example. Also working class women have accepted the morals to some extent, but in my experience a lot of them still support strong gender roles in the sense that there are girl things and boy things and wanting a man to "take care of them". Hopefully in time these things and ideas will weaken in all parts of society.

 

4 hours ago, Wise Fool said:

There are guys walking around who think, who literally, honestly believe (the way a cult member believes) that they deserve sexual access and, more to the point, have that as the object of their desires.

MRA type stuff really is a cult though. They draw in frustrated guys who can't get a girlfriend, and teach them "game" which is really just confidence and usually works at least somewhat, if you get fit and ask 100 girls out probably one will say yes. But this is than used to prove a whole ideology of Alphas Betas and a million other letters, and the next thing you know some average frustrated chump is now arguing that we should take the vote away from women and that we should have a king, seriously look up the "dark enlightenment" Now most of this is  just Reddit bullshit, but it's growing and parts of it are seeping into our culture. Look at how often the Alpha, Bet dichotomy is used outside of MRA places. See Gamersgate. It's not to strong now but it does seem to have an appeal that the traditional misogyny lacks.  

[sologdin]

am recommending fausto-sterling's sexing the body, which troubles sexual dimorphism as a significant distinction, at least by implication, in a manner similar to how judith butler troubles gender distinctions.  

[Commodore]

if you mean manliness

- the ability to provide safety/security/comfort for your family and community

- skills for doing the above (which can include physical strength/stamina)

- instilling virtue in one's offspring (setting an example, issuing discipline, providing guidance/instruction)

 

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Return of Kings isn't worth taking seriously anymore than Stormfront is.

[TerraPrime]

I think I touched on the issue of defining masculinity a while back in one of the feminism threads. Can't find it though and can't be arsed to search too hard. 

I think plenty of the elements of how we define masculinity is very problematic. I think if you're LBGT, you're particularly sensitized to the issue because of the prevalence of the stereotypes associated with non-heterosexuality in men, e.g. "sissies." It is a difficult issue to wrestle with and I am not sure the gay male community has done a good job at it, because I see plenty of cultural practices in our community that serve to reinforce the toxic elements of masculinity. 

The bottom line, though, is that a reinvention of masculinity cannot come from women. This has to come from men. This is not because women's insight into masculinity is any less valid or any less useful, but because it needs to be something embraced by many/most men. 

There are, and has been, various movements to address that. The mythopoetic movement, the drumming circles, the wild men movement, etc. Books like "Iron John" and others speak to these issues. Sadly, most of the stuff that I've come across so far are rooted in reactionary anti-feminism. It's toxic at its genesis. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

15 hours ago, Darzin said:

Well I think a large part of all this is the changing economy and changing roles. As these stabilize we should see some of this fade.

Yea, this is what I think a large part of the "problem" is also. Some men have the idea that they are King of their Domain. They shouldn't have to cook or clean or help their wife with the babies. Its a shame, because in today's society it usually takes two to have a home and have enough income to give your children the things they need.

I do all of those things in my household, and if I didn't I'd be single, paying child support. Does it make me feel less a man? No. In fact, I feel more of a man because I take on the responsibilty of raising my children. It also gives my wife the chance to have a career and feel productive in life. When she wasn't working was the most depressed I've ever seen her. It a sad fact, but a lot of men don't feel that any of that is their duty. Hell, a ton of them just run when they hear, "I'm pregnant". As Darzin said, it's the changing roles in today's society.

[Red Tiger]

"a real man is not afraid to be seen drinking a froufy girly drink at the bar"

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

3 minutes ago, Red Tiger said:

"a real man is not afraid to be seen drinking a froufy girly drink at the bar"

Like a sex on the beach, or a bubble gum martini?

[Red Tiger]

1 minute ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Like a sex on the beach, or a bubble gum martini?

I don't know what those are, cause I don't drink. But the essence of the quote remains, shame and insecurity only work if you care about living up to a very fragile illusion of masculinity.

 

 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

1 minute ago, Red Tiger said:

I don't know what those are, cause I don't drink. But the essence of the quote remains, shame and insecurity only work if you care about living up to a very fragile illusion of masculinity.

 

 

Right, I gotcha. I was just trying to add a lil humor. Your right though, I've heard guys called pussy before for what they were drinking. Some would let it bother them, others are just fine with it. Hell, that actually might be a good test to see if someone is in touch with their feminine side or not.