Why Do You Hate Jamie?

[BerryHarryBear]

I really like Jamie. I think GrrM has done a great job of creating this and ALL his characters. Even the ones I don't particularly like. Even the ones that I really hate ( did someone say LF)

Jamie is just such a great character though that I am stuck in a quandary. I love to read him, but I can never forgive him for what he did to Bran.

The incest does not bother me that much, in my view he was probably partially seduced by his sister. Not that he probably fought it that much. Regardless, he certainly did not force himself on her that I have seen so far.

So what do you think? What else has he done wrong. Don't tell me Kingslaying, I agree with him - That was his GREATIST act.

[snuffy]

Jaime is my friend.

[Devil Hanzo]

Well i think overall he has redeemed himself.

But he seems to punish himself more for killing aerys and not being able to keep his promise to catelyn then he does throwing Bran of the tower.

I mean what? He thinks about it once, with little feeling and basically a sentenece or two.

That said, i think he has changed as a person, and if confronted, in his POV i think martin would write alot of guilt in jaime's head. He's a changed man after all.

[Faceless Dude]

I don't hate Jaime. I never hated Jaime. Jaime rocks. Always has

[BerryHarryBear]

Well i think overall he has redeemed himself.

But he seems to punish himself more for killing aerys and not being able to keep his promise to catelyn then he does throwing Bran of the tower.

I mean what? He thinks about it once, with little feeling and basically a sentenece or two.

That said, i think he has changed as a person, and if confronted, in his POV i think martin would write alot of guilt in jaime's head. He's a changed man after all.

Interesting! Because that is not really the way I see him. I just do not see that he has changed that much.

The way that I see him is that he has a Bad side and a Good side. This was true when he was with Areys and now. The only difference between now and tGoT is that now we have a POV for him and can see what he thinks and his motivations. When he goes to Riverrun he is breaking his oath to Cat. He does it in a great way, and I think for good reasons. But despite that he is technecally breaking his oath. He of all the characters has had a huge number of delemas through out his life with honor, duty, morals and such.

At Hannerhall he had his duty to his father and his love for his sister - so as his fathers only son (excluding Tyrion) he betrayed his father and joined the KG to be with Cersei.

As Robert's KG he betrayed his King to sleep with his sister.

Most of his failures have been due to Cersei. If Tyrion had not opened his eyes about her, he would still be in her clutches.

[snake]

I also don't think he's changed that much. He tried to kill Bran and doesn't show much remorse. He killed his king and although Aerys deserved to die it was not his place to do it. He betrayed all his vows to Robert which he in no way regrets.

His only good actions were rescuing Brienne and breaking with Cersei and that latter was more Cersei's doing than his.

So basically he's still well worth loathing and I shall continue to do so.

[Tears of Lys]

I don't hate Jaime. In fact, he's one of my favorite characters. He has committed despicable acts, but in the case of Aerys, that dude needed killing - if only for what he did to Rickard and Brandon. And if it wasn't his "place" to do it, who else would? He was placed in a situation where it was his father or his king.

Robert was a terrible king and a loser. Jaime had Cersei first. She was "sold" into that marriage by her father so he could cement power. Robert was a hound-dog and, worse yet, made it clear he loved a dead woman more.

The loss of his sword hand has made a tremendous difference in how Jaime interacts with the rest of the world.

Before the maiming, he was an arrogant, privileged, handsome scoundrel who could kick just about anyone's ass and didn't hesitate to do it. After the maiming, he's been brought down a peg or two. Still privileged, still handsome, but the arrogance has been taken away along with his hand - now he has to deal with the world almost as Tyrion would - with his wits. And now that he has to use his wits, he seems to be using them in ways no one could have predicted. And he's just as funny as Tyrion! To say any more of Tyrion at this point would be revealing spoilers, so it'll have to suffice to say that Jaime is turning into a very attractive character.

His throwing Bran from the window is a part of the pre-maiming Jaime that I think would not happen now. No, he's not totally "good," but how many interesting characters in these books are?

[Kalbear]

Can he be redeemed? Yeah. Bran could kill him.

Can he be forgiven? Not by me.

[Faceless Man]

Can he be redeemed? For what? He's done nothing that needs redeeming.

Can he be forgiven? For what? He's done nothing that needs forgiving.

I personally loved the Kingslayer, and don't fault him for hurling that pesky kid from the window. If Jaime is 'redeemed' in all of your eyes, it means he's lsot what makes him special (to me). If Jaime has a true 'redemption', a little part inside of me will die

Kingslayer pwns

[Daemrion]

Can he be redeemed? Yeah. Bran could kill him.

Can he be forgiven? Not by me.

And that's probably why we'll never agree on anything at all.

Back on to topic:

He was placed in a situation where it was his father or his king.

Don't understate that, it was his father, 10000+ Lannister troops and all the citizens of Kings Landing , or his King.

Robert was a terrible king and a loser. Jaime had Cersei first. She was "sold" into that marriage by her father so he could cement power. Robert was a hound-dog and, worse yet, made it clear he loved a dead woman more.

Still it's no reason to go around sleeping behind Robert's back.

Frankly, does anyone think that Robert would even care about sharing his women?

[Devil Hanzo]

I also don't think he's changed that much. He tried to kill Bran and doesn't show much remorse. He killed his king and although Aerys deserved to die it was not his place to do it. He betrayed all his vows to Robert which he in no way regrets.

His only good actions were rescuing Brienne and breaking with Cersei and that latter was more Cersei's doing than his.

So basically he's still well worth loathing and I shall continue to do so.

And thats the strange thing....he gives himself grief over so many different things he has done but...throwing a kid out of a tower is not one of them.

And he only gives himself greif because of his suspiciouns of cersie so....how much has he changed? how much is he the same?

He HAS changed however...compare his POV from before he lost his hand to the newer ones.

[The Winged Shadow]

And thats the strange thing....he gives himself grief over so many different things he has done but...throwing a kid out of a tower is not one of them.

I disagree. He doesnt "GRIEF" for anything. He sulks and whinges.

I dont blame him for the Aerys event. Personally, i feel he did the "RIGHT" thing but not the "Honourable" one since he gave his oath.

Can he be redeemed? Yes. but so far he has shown very little in terms of regret.

Can he be forgiven for the Bran incident? NO. It was dispicable despite what he may have thought. But everyone has their good and bad things they must live with. this will be one of his. As i said above, he can be redeemed OVERALL-ly (not a word, i know....but cant think of a better word. lol) but not for every single bad deeds he has done.

[Errant Bard]

Jaime has nothing to regret, he is one of the only characters who see that some vows conflict with one another, and that you have to choose your side, in the end.

Jaime made a conscious choice to put his chivalry ideals and his love for his family above his other oaths, and it destroyed him, not unlike Gregor destroyed Sandor's illusions.

With his broken honor, of which he is all too aware, he still tries to cling to the oaths he chose, but doesn't balk anymore at anything standing in his way of protecting what he has left. Yet, he chose his path, and followed through.

Flinging Bran out was to protect Cersei, Slaying Aerys was to protect the weak, slaying Jory Cassel was for Tyrion, bargaining with Brynden and Edmure was for his soldiers.

The really interesting bit comes when yet another conflict arise in his vows, when he has to choose between protecting Cersei, and protecting the realm.

Jaime has something I highly respect at this point, and that's personal responsibility, he does not seek excuses, he puts himself on the line, he accepts the consequences of his actions, and he knows why he did them. He doesn't have to be redeemed because he doesn't want to, there is nothing to redeem, he is on his chosen path and he didn't deviate from it, what he did to stay on it was his choice, and he still carries on.

At least, that's how I see it.

[WhiteQueen]

Robert was a terrible king and a loser. Jaime had Cersei first. She was "sold" into that marriage by her father so he could cement power. Robert was a hound-dog and, worse yet, made it clear he loved a dead woman more.

It's off the topic. But don't you think Cersei wanted to be a queen, and even if her father did not "sell" her to Robert, she would have married him anyway? She is power hungry and very haughty, so she'd rather be Robert's queen then Jaime's ... whatever.

As for Jaime, I blame him for sleeping with Cersei -- that's the pinnacle of narcissism to fall in love with yourself, only of different sex. And I can't forgive him throwing Bran out of the window -- even Cersei had enough brain to reprimand him for that. I am also not a big fan of Jaime helping Cersei out to abort her child from Robert. Aerys is another story -- that was a good deed, even if it makes Jaime dishonorable, I don't hold it against him. Having said all that, I like Jaime, but he does have shit for honor.

[sandorshound]

At first I hated Jaime because of what he did to Bran. I mean, what kind of person throws a little kid out of a window? Then I realized my hypocrisy. If I could root for a Sandor Clegane who had ridden Mycah down and cut him in two, what would prevent me from feeling the same for Jaime? Was my dislike born from envy of privilege and status, of which the Hound had none and the Golden Boy plenty? Hmmm...

I started to have a bit more compassion for Jaime when he lost his hand. Suddenly, he didn't seem so much the arrogant ass that garnered my contempt. And coming to the rescue of Brienne of Tarth, one of my fav characters, changed my whole outlook. I now root for him to survive to the end, along with Sandor, all the Stark kids, Littlefinger, and Brienne.

As far as having no honor... who among us is truly honorable? There is always something, somewhere, that will cause us to stumble. The beast lives within us all, it just goes by a different name.

[fws68]

I don't know. I mistrust people who are forced into 'redemption'. If he hadn't lost his hand Jamie would still be a man who would toss a child out of a window to protect his; adultery, incest and betrayl of King Robert.

Now he lost his hand, ohhhh poor Jamie. Now he HAS to see what life without a good sword hand is like. He hasn't changed at all, he just lacks the opportunity to be the same arrogant sod. If he gets called out by someone he is a dead man at this point. (Future? Maybe not)

Jamie plays at redemption the way a child plays at being adult, by mimicking the actions they think they should do. There has been no remorse for Bran. No remorse for his adultery with the Kings wife. Now when his sister's sleeping about becomes clear, he becomes petulant and refuses to go to her. Again, a spoiled child who doesn't care about wrong or right, just about who hurt him.

Say all you want. Jamie is a class 'A' jerk with a soft spot for Brienne. Not a redeemed man who still holds some rough edges. A gift of a nice sword, and trying to honor vows as anyone should do, does not a redemption make.

[Errant Bard]

If he hadn't lost his hand Jamie would still be a man who would toss a child out of a window to protect his; adultery, incest and betrayl of King Robert.

jAIme is still such a man, ask Edmure.

[Spring Bass]

I can forgive him for Bran. Bran may have been a little child, but he also just caught Jaime in an active act of incest with the Queen (which would mean the deaths of both of them if caught), and he acted rashly. That doesn't mean that what he did to Bran was okay (it was despicable) but I can forgive him for it.

[DeliriousEdd]

Jamie plays at redemption the way a child plays at being adult, by mimicking the actions they think they should do. There has been no remorse for Bran. No remorse for his adultery with the Kings wife. Now when his sister's sleeping about becomes clear, he becomes petulant and refuses to go to her. Again, a spoiled child who doesn't care about wrong or right, just about who hurt him.

Say all you want. Jamie is a class 'A' jerk with a soft spot for Brienne. Not a redeemed man who still holds some rough edges. A gift of a nice sword, and trying to honor vows as anyone should do, does not a redemption make.

Exactly. Jaime's redemption makes for a very intriguing read...I can't wait for it to start. His incessant self-pitying, nobody understands my pain, emo crap grates on my nerves. His chapters in the later books just show that Joffrey did not fall far from the tree. He and Cersei deserve each other.

I did enjoy Jaime's chapters in AFFC. Watching him obsess over his sister's bedmates and bemoan the loss of his hand was enjoyable. The meeting with the Blackfish though, that's a beautiful work of art to be enjoyed again and again.

[A wilding]