Why Do You Hate Jamie?

[BerryHarryBear]

His chapters in the later books just show that Joffrey did not fall far from the tree.

Other than looks I see nothing of Jamie in Joffery. The little monster was the spitting image of Cersei. A Spoiled Little Sadistic Murdering Monster, just like Mom.

I did enjoy Jaime's chapters in AFFC. Watching him obsess over his sister's bedmates and bemoan the loss of his hand was enjoyable. The meeting with the Blackfish though, that's a beautiful work of art to be enjoyed again and again.

I found this to be annoying as well, but needed and realistic. A person that has been betrayed does obsess ovet it, as does someone who looses a body part. It is really annoying but, he does not vent out loud which is what most people do. I have three different friends that have lost their "significant others" (One wife and two girlfriends) and it is painful having to listen to them even after a full year. The first 30 times of "How could she do this to me." is not all that bad but after that it really gets old. At least with GrrM, I do not think he will make it THAT real. I think GrrM showed enough of that to make him and Tyrion seem real, but not make them unbearable.

I did enjoy Jaime's chapters in AFFC. Watching him obsess over his sister's bedmates and bemoan the loss of his hand was enjoyable. The meeting with the Blackfish though, that's a beautiful work of art to be enjoyed again and again.

I agree with most the people above that Jamie is a scum-bag but a great character to read and very complex. Keep it up GrrM.

[Tears of Lys]

It's off the topic. But don't you think Cersei wanted to be a queen, and even if her father did not "sell" her to Robert, she would have married him anyway? She is power hungry and very haughty, so she'd rather be Robert's queen then Jaime's ... whatever.

As for Jaime, I blame him for sleeping with Cersei -- that's the pinnacle of narcissism to fall in love with yourself, only of different sex. And I can't forgive him throwing Bran out of the window -- even Cersei had enough brain to reprimand him for that. I am also not a big fan of Jaime helping Cersei out to abort her child from Robert. Aerys is another story -- that was a good deed, even if it makes Jaime dishonorable, I don't hold it against him. Having said all that, I like Jaime, but he does have shit for honor.

You've got a point. She did want to be queen. But Robert really wasn't her type. Rhaegar was the one she wanted. Then when he made it clear that she was no different than any tavern wench to him, Robert lost whatever slim chance he had of having a happy marriage.

I think Jaime was actually in love with Cersei, but Cersei was in love with the idea of herself male. But I guess that's another topic for another day .

[Trem]

I like Jamie a lot but i agree with a lot of posters that say he doesn't show enough remorce for Bran. Everything else doesn't really bother me and personally i think hes been treated like shit all his life and its no wonder he turned into a real prick.

Aerys treated him like crap the moment he joined the KG, rather than being an honor it was done simply to piss off his father. The smallfolk spit at his name when he saved their lives at the cost of his own honor. Something he said in i believe ASOS to Catelyn made me understand him a lot better (parapharsing): "they make you swear so many oaths no matter what you do you end up breaking some of them". Thats the honest to god truth, he broke his oath to Catelyn over breaking his oath to the king, he broke his oath the previous king over breaking his knightly oaths. I think hes chosen to do the right thing in every case so far, even if it meant breaking one oath or another. But he did throw Bran out a window so he better start making up for that pretty soon or my patience will end.

[Kalbear]

Honestly, even if Jaime did nothing but show horrible remorse and crushing guilt for almost killing Bran, I don't think I would care.

He pushes kids out of windows. This isn't a person I can forgive, or a person that I can say is now a 'good guy'. He's a fascinating character, but not one that I would ever particularly root for.

[BerryHarryBear]

Then we have his lies in betrayal of his little brother. Facilitating her Gang Rape by a large group of men and her being rejected by the man she apparently loved and that loved her. Something that his little brother a public freak got very little of in his family.

PS Trem,

Jamie had a very Privilreged life as Tywins son and heir. He would have gotten CR if he had not let his scheaming sister talk him into going into the KG. Areys may not have treated him great, but I doubt Areys treated any of the KG all that good. The KG position though, had lots of perks. They struck awe in near everyone they saw and the Public probably were particularly revered him for his good looks and skills - until he killed the King, that is.

Sorry, but I don't see the need to cry too much for Jamie. Yes, Jamie took some hits, but his brother got a lot worse from life.

[Mad Queen]

I also agree that Jaime never showed any remorse. He just went back to wanting to be great knight, thus he has to be honorable. He didn't realize that his actions hurt innocent people, he doesn't show empathy. He realized that he didn't keep his promises and everyone despised him for it. He thinks on how Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy were great men. And also Brienne, she protected him even though she thought he was a monster, but Jaime didn't protect Aerys. He didn't become a good person, he just keeps his oaths now. It's all about Aerys's murder, which is what he is known for, he never gives Bran a thought.

Nevertheless I love him. He is the best character in the series. He doesn't need to be good and be redeemed. I hope he gets a good death.

[Daemrion]

Then we have his lies in betrayal of his little brother. Facilitating her Gang Rape by a large group of men and her being rejected by the man she apparently loved and that loved her. Something that his little brother a public freak got very little of in his family.

But then again, did anyone balk Tywin Lannister and get away with it? His own father told me to lie to his brother. Here, I think he choose the wrong thing, the immoral thing. But his vows probably dictated that he had to listen to Tywin.

I think that Jaime and Tyrion did genuinely love each other as brothers. The fact that Jaime went on a rampage after Tyrion was kidnapped by Catelyn is a testament to that.

I think Jaime was actually in love with Cersei, but Cersei was in love with the idea of herself male. But I guess that's another topic for another day

Totally agree.

[Mad Queen]

When he had his hand cut, Jaime thought he had to live for Tyrion and Cersei. I think it's obvious he really loved his siblings.

[Dr Adder]

Jaime is one of my fave characters. Although he doesn't show any remorse for tossing Bran off the tower his journey has by far being the most interesting. One part of ffc which to me was particularly telling was when he was thinking of his boyhood, how he wanted to be like Arthur Dayne and instead he became the Smiling Knight.

[Devil Hanzo]

Jaime is one of my fave characters. Although he doesn't show any remorse for tossing Bran off the tower his journey has by far being the most interesting. One part of ffc which to me was particularly telling was when he was thinking of his boyhood, how he wanted to be like Arthur Dayne and instead he became the Smiling Knight.

Yeah i noted that as well.

[dornish prince]

i don't....

i hate GRRM for making me like him

[BrainFireBob]

Question for those who feel Jaime can never be forgiven for what he did to Bran:

Considering the situation he was caught in, and the location, what *should* he have done, *given* he and Cersei were at such risk?

[fws68]

What he should have done was learn to keep it in his pants when it wasn't appropriate or at least the risk was heightened.

I dont blame Bran for Jamie thinking with his lust.

When caught he should have denied it and said the child saw no such thing.. what he really saw was.. (Plausible for such a young child) even if they snickered I dont think many would have faced the queen at that early point.

So once again Jamie acted like a monster and threw an innocent child to what he thought would be his death. Just imagine if someone in your neighborhood did that. Would we be thinking, "Well.. he really does have a lot of redeeming points to him, we'll let it slide this one time." Lol. Would you let him watch your kids?

[MountainThatRides]

Jaime Lannister is two people: The Young Lion, and the Kingslayer.

The Young Lion was the young prodigy who everyone knew would grow to be one of the greatest knights in history. He learned his skill from Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, and from Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull. He had opportunities to watch men like Robert Baratheon and Rhaegar Targaryen while they were in their prime. He learned from their example, trying to make himself just, chivalrous, and skilled at arms. He accomplished great feats when he aided Arthur Dayne in the destruction of the Kingswood Brotherhood. This young man dies when Jaime kills King Aerys Targaryen.

The Kingslayer is an entirely different entity. It represents all of Jaime's vices. Some might not be bad qualities forthright, but they are certainly self-destructive ones. Recklessness, foolhardy courage, lust for battle, incestuous behavior, callous cruelty, betrayal, and above all else, the urge to make his father proud of him. Most of the horrible things the Kingslayer has done were either because of his father (killing King Aerys, which in itself was a good deed, however because of Jaime's oath as a knight of the Kingsguard, it becomes evil; the cruelty towards Tyrion concerning Tysha), or his sister (fathering abominations like Joffrey through incest; crippling Bran Stark). Because of his last-minute desire to save Tyrion, he indirectly causes his father's death, making him a kinslayer as well.

Jaime is nothing if not cursed. Kingslayer and kinslayer both are accursed by gods and men. Despite how hard he tries to let the Young Lion back in control(rescuing Brienne and Tyrion), the Kingslayer is always there to laugh at him and find some way to spoil his little victories.

Add to this the great and heavy burden that lays upon Jaime's shoulders, a direct result of his first heinous crime. A recurring theme in ASoIaF are the words "It all goes back to Aerys." Many things may have been different. If Jaime had not killed Aerys. If Tywin had not ordered the deaths of the young Targaryens and opened the gates to Ned Stark. If Rhaegar had married Lyanna Stark instead of Cersei Lannister. If Rhaegar had not been killed on the trident. Whether or not any of these events could have been avoided, and whether or not Jaime was responsible for them, he is constantly reflecting on these things in a roundabout way. All the war, the death, and the rise of men like Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch can be attributed to certain specific events. It seems that Jaime feels partially responsible for letting the realm become what it has, by soiling his white cloak, and imagines what men like Arthur Dayne would have to say about him.

The guilt in Jaime is eventually what will redeem him. Already we see him change, all during Storm of Swords and Feast For Crows. Losing his sword hand did not cripple Jaime. It crippled the Kingslayer. He lost his pride, his recklessness and his cruelty, and gained humility and hindsight.

The biggest problem in Westeros - this is my opinion of what Jaime might be thinking now - is Fort Mayne. This is the feudalistic philosophy of "Might makes Right." Men like Gregor Clegane and even Robert Baratheon belong to this school of thought. This was the school of thought that the Kingslayer belonged to. However, the Young Lion, who Jaime is gradually ressurrecting, belongs to chivalry and justice.

I don't hate Jaime, and I don't think anyone else truly does. People hate the things he's done, and he's done those things because of pressure and horrible influences. Unfortunately, Jaime did not make the right decision in many cases, and can be reviled for that. To err is human, and there is no where else for Jaime to go but up. Concerning redemption, I think everyone is rooting for Jaime, deep down.

[BrainFireBob]

What he should have done was learn to keep it in his pants when it wasn't appropriate or at least the risk was heightened.

I dont blame Bran for Jamie thinking with his lust.

When caught he should have denied it and said the child saw no such thing.. what he really saw was.. (Plausible for such a young child) even if they snickered I dont think many would have faced the queen at that early point.

So once again Jamie acted like a monster and threw an innocent child to what he thought would be his death. Just imagine if someone in your neighborhood did that. Would we be thinking, "Well.. he really does have a lot of redeeming points to him, we'll let it slide this one time." Lol. Would you let him watch your kids?

Ah, but Bran was too old for that. He was what, 8, 9, 10? Somewhere in that range. Children that age do not, as a rule, suffer such delusions or misperceptions.

[The Boar of Gore]

Well i think overall he has redeemed himself.

But he seems to punish himself more for killing aerys and not being able to keep his promise to catelyn then he does throwing Bran of the tower.

Yeah, I think that is a big red herring that gets this whole forum so heated up discussing how he was so justified in killing Aerys and how it's so unfair how the world judges him for it we forget how he tossed an 8 year old kid out the window like he was a bug.

Remember the scene in 'The Mission' where De Niro carries his armour up a waterfall to punish himself? And he enslaved kids rather than murdered them. I'd like to see Jaime expiate his guilt like that.

How in hell has he redeemed himself?

[BrainFireBob]

In all fairness, Beowulf, what was unfair was that he killed Aerys for being a monster of a human being, but regardless of whether he did it, if a child was flung from a window, Jaime would be blamed for it. Regardless of whether he did. Because having erred once, no one will ever trust him again.

It rather reminds me of the prison question. Many don't rehabilitate. But prison, though they're trying to shift it, isn't about rehabilitation. It's about paying of debt. If the debt's paid, is the slate clean unless another crime is committed?

Often not. Sometimes, yes. But if the option's not open, we might as well kill everyone accused of a crime.

[Kalbear]

But BFB, he did throw Bran out a window. I don't see how horrible it is to accuse Jaime of a crime he actually committed. Perhaps, just perhaps, people might besmirch his honor and word less if he stopped, oh, fucking his sister, killing people he swore to protect and defenestrating 8 year olds.

Maybe.

Stop doing that stuff, and perhaps he'll stop getting blamed for the stuff that he actually does.

[Enguerrand]

Question for those who feel Jaime can never be forgiven for what he did to Bran:

Considering the situation he was caught in, and the location, what *should* he have done, *given* he and Cersei were at such risk?

Admitting his crimes and taking the punishment like a man?

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I don't hate Jaime, I think he's a great character, but I do think his fans give him to much of a pass. I don't think he's irredeemable, but I don't think he's redeemed himself yet, and to be redeemed for what he did to Bran, Bran would have to personally forgive him.