About Rhaenyra and Laenor 's marriage

[purple-eyes]

Another post was talking about marriage between Renly and Margarey.

And most of people agree that renly had sex with margarey and I think they will make child if Renly did not die so conveniently.

However, we have another pair, rhaenyra and Laenor, who is a well known gay.

They seem to have a good relationship over marriage, and it was rumored that the couple had sex with Rhaenyra's lover Harwin together (threesome). So they are not like Cersei and Robert.(imagine Robert let Jaime join his bed with Cersei, that is funny)

And rhaenyra got major support from her husband's house. Three children from Rhaenyra were also acknowledged by laenor and his family as Velaryon. (But they are very likely bastards from Harwin, their looks are too obvious)

What is the situation here?

maybe laneor was not able to perform his duty at all? is this possible?

So he does not mind using harwin as the sperm donor? And his father and mother are OK with this?

But why would harwin be fine to let his children be Laenor's?

 

 

 

[redtree]

53 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Another post was talking about marriage between Renly and Margarey.

And most of people agree that renly had sex with margarey and I think they will make child if Renly did not die so conveniently.

However, we have another pair, rhaenyra and Laenor, who is a well known gay.

They seem to have a good relationship over marriage, and it was rumored that the couple had sex with Rhaenyra's lover Harwin together (threesome). So they are not like Cersei and Robert.(imagine Robert let Jaime join his bed with Cersei, that is funny)

And rhaenyra got major support from her husband's house. Three children from Rhaenyra were also acknowledged by laenor and his family as Velaryon. (But they are very likely bastards from Harwin, their looks are too obvious)

What is the situation here?

The difference is in who holds the power, Margaery had to carry the king's (Renly) blood so she had to sleep with him but Rhaenyra was the future queen, any issue is her blood no matter who the father is

I think Rhaenyra had never pressured Laenor to perform, she had never excited about the marriage to begin with. But it seemed that they were good friends, she let Laenor named the boys after all. He was cool about Harwin Strong and she didn't care about Qarl Correy. 
 

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

maybe laneor was not able to perform his duty at all? is this possible?

So he does not mind using harwin as the sperm donor? And his father and mother are OK with this?

He could've if he wanted to, Mushroom said Rhaenyra sometimes invite Laenor's friend to have threesome
It doesn't look like that he minded at all. I'm not sure about the Velaryon, when Corlys almost died Rhaenyra suggested that Lucaerys should be the heir of Driftmark and some Velaryons voiced their objection of the Strong boys
 

[purple-eyes]

7 minutes ago, redtree said:

The difference is in who holds the power, Margaery had to carry the king's (Renly) blood so she had to sleep with him but Rhaenyra was the future queen, any issue is her blood no matter who the father is

I think Rhaenyra had never pressured Laenor to perform, she had never excited about the marriage to begin with. But it seemed that they were good friends, she let Laenor named the boys after all. He was cool about Harwin Strong and she didn't care about Qarl Correy. 
 

He could've if he wanted to, Mushroom said Rhaenyra sometimes invite Laenor's friend to have threesome
It doesn't look like that he minded at all. I'm not sure about the Velaryon, when Corlys almost died Rhaenyra suggested that Lucaerys should be the heir of Driftmark and some Velaryons voiced their objection of the Strong boys
 

Still I feel it is better for rhaenyra to carry child from laenor, this can avoid those bastard rumors. And also better support from corlys. 

Maybe she loved harwin and wanted to carry his children. 

Pit is just confusing that if she is willing to sleep with both laenor and harwin, why not carry a child for him? 

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, redtree said: The difference is in who holds the power, Margaery had to carry the king's (Renly) blood so she had to sleep with him but Rhaenyra was the future queen, any issue is her blood no matter who the father is

I think Rhaenyra had never pressured Laenor to perform, she had never excited about the marriage to begin with. But it seemed that they were good friends, she let Laenor named the boys after all. He was cool about Harwin Strong and she didn't care about Qarl Correy.

He could've if he wanted to, Mushroom said Rhaenyra sometimes invite Laenor's friend to have threesome

It doesn't look like that he minded at all. I'm not sure about the Velaryon, when Corlys almost died Rhaenyra suggested that Lucaerys should be the heir of Driftmark and some Velaryons voiced their objection of the Strong boys

Still I feel it is better for rhaenyra to carry child from laenor, this can avoid those bastard rumors. And also better support from corlys.

Maybe she loved harwin and wanted to carry his children.

Pit is just confusing that if she is willing to sleep with both laenor and harwin, why not carry a child for him?

I doubt if she did take part in threesomes with Laenor and his lover. In all likelihood, they reached a deal whereby she and Laenor would refrain from sex with each other, but he'd acknowledge her children by Harwin as her own.

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I doubt if she did take part in threesomes with Laenor and his lover. In all likelihood, they reached a deal whereby she and Laenor would refrain from sex with each other, but he'd acknowledge her children by Harwin as her own.

This is the confusing part. It is certainly better to have at least a child from laenor to seal the faith of Velaryon. 

Laenor is gay but he should be able to perform his duty as renly. 

Why would they refrain from having sex with each other? Except rhaenyra really hated him and did not want to do it with him? 

[HexMachina]

Or she respects and likes him and doesn't want to pressure him into something he doesn't want. They had quite obviously come to their own arrangement on the matter

[SeanF]

25 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Or she respects and likes him and doesn't want to pressure him into something he doesn't want. They had quite obviously come to their own arrangement on the matter

It was certainly better than her seeking an annulment, due to non-consummation.  That would infuriate the Velaryon branch of the royal family, and make her a laughing stock.

[aryagonnakill#2]

We can't say anything for sure, but the odds are they were Harwins children.   Perhaps Leanor was impotent, perhaps he only liked to take not give, perhaps he was infertile.  Given the # of children though, we can be reasonably sure they were Harwins due to simply odds.

[Jaak]

The threesome tale specified Qarl Correy, not Harwin.

The story did specify that the children did not look like Laenor - but did not specify what Qarl Correy looked like. Were the children Harwin´s or Qarl´s, after all?

[Aemond's Eye]

10 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

This is the confusing part. It is certainly better to have at least a child from laenor to seal the faith of Velaryon. 

Laenor is gay but he should be able to perform his duty as renly. 

Why would they refrain from having sex with each other? Except rhaenyra really hated him and did not want to do it with him? 

Is that a serious question? Or are you actually saying that because one (probably) gay character was willing/able to have sex with a woman then another (probably) gay character should? You do realise it's not that simple, yeah? Few couples conceive by having sex once every so often - just because Corlys wanted Laenor to father sons doesn't mean he would have felt comfortable sleeping with Rhaenyra on a regular basis.

The solution came in the form of betrothing the eldest two boys to Daemon's twins by Laena - thus securing that the Velaryon and Targaryen bloodlines would still be passed on to future Lords of Driftmark. Or that was the plan, anyway.

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, Jaak said:

The threesome tale specified Qarl Correy, not Harwin.

The story did specify that the children did not look like Laenor - but did not specify what Qarl Correy looked like. Were the children Harwin´s or Qarl´s, after all?

I think that is Harwin. But I can check to see.

It is harwin. 

And three children indeed look like harwin. 

[purple-eyes]

31 minutes ago, It'sAlwaysWinterInScotland said:

Is that a serious question? Or are you actually saying that because one (probably) gay character was willing/able to have sex with a woman then another (probably) gay character should? You do realise it's not that simple, yeah? Few couples conceive by having sex once every so often - just because Corlys wanted Laenor to father sons doesn't mean he would have felt comfortable sleeping with Rhaenyra on a regular basis.

The solution came in the form of betrothing the eldest two boys to Daemon's twins by Laena - thus securing that the Velaryon and Targaryen bloodlines would still be passed on to future Lords of Driftmark. Or that was the plan, anyway.

Because they are not regular couple and they have serious duties to perform. They are future queen and king consort of Westeros.

IMHO it is certainly better to have true born children from her husband, to avoid bad rumors, to make better reputation, as well as to cement the alliance with Corlys.

By the way, when first two childen of Rhaenyra was born, there was no daughter of Daemon yet. twins were born later and also they came back even more later. They can not completely count on to have some daughter from Laena to cement this alliance.

If Laenor and Rhaenyra had a bad relationship like Robert and Cersei, sure, I can understand she would not want to have children with him.

But it looks like they are OK and they are willing to sleep together (like renly and Margarey). That is why I got confused why they did not make at least one child from Laenor, instead they got three strong children which was a scandal all the time.

[Aemond's Eye]

50 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Because they are not regular couple and they have serious duties to perform. They are future queen and king consort of Westeros.

IMHO it is certainly better to have true born children from her husband, to avoid bad rumors, to make better reputation, as well as to cement the alliance with Corlys.

By the way, when first two childen of Rhaenyra was born, there was no daughter of Daemon yet. twins were born later and also they came back even more later. They can not completely count on to have some daughter from Laena to cement this alliance.

If Laenor and Rhaenyra had a bad relationship like Robert and Cersei, sure, I can understand she would not want to have children with him.

But it looks like they are OK and they are willing to sleep together (like renly and Margarey). That is why I got confused why they did not make at least one child from Laenor, instead they got three strong children which was a scandal all the time.

Having "duties to perform" doesn't mean a gay guy can get aroused for sex with a woman. That's not rocket science. "In my opinion it is better to have true born children." I'm sure Laenor would agree - it's not relevant though. It would have been better if the expected future King Consort had been a heterosexual warrior of great renown too. I guess Laenor should just have become straight and a great knight.

Not every gay man will be able to perform when it comes to sex with a woman. The rumoured threesomes were probably an attempt to work around that, if they were indeed true.

I did not post that Laena's twins were born in the same year as Rhaenyra's eldest. Jacaerys was born in 114AC, Lucerys in 115AC; Rhaena & Baela in 116AC. They were betrothed as infants to ensure the Velaryon bloodline still sat on High Tide. Who knows what Corlys would have done otherwise? He had two bastards in Addam and Alyn, and had the twins been boys he'd have known they had his bloodline.

[purple-eyes]

3 minutes ago, It'sAlwaysWinterInScotland said:

Having "duties to perform" doesn't mean a gay guy can get aroused for sex with a woman. That's not rocket science. "In my opinion it is better to have true born children." I'm sure Laenor would agree - it's not relevant though. It would have been better if the expected future King Consort had been a heterosexual warrior of great renown too. I guess Laenor should just have become straight and a great knight.

Not every gay man will be able to perform when it comes to sex with a woman. The rumoured threesomes were probably an attempt to work around that, if they were indeed true.

I did not post that Laena's twins were born in the same year as Rhaenyra's eldest. Jacaerys was born in 114AC, Lucerys in 115AC; Rhaena & Baela in 116AC. They were betrothed as infants to ensure the Velaryon bloodline still sat on High Tide. Who knows what Corlys would have done otherwise? He had two bastards in Addam and Alyn, and had the twins been boys he'd have known they had his bloodline.

 

3 minutes ago, It'sAlwaysWinterInScotland said:

Having "duties to perform" doesn't mean a gay guy can get aroused for sex with a woman. That's not rocket science. "In my opinion it is better to have true born children." I'm sure Laenor would agree - it's not relevant though. It would have been better if the expected future King Consort had been a heterosexual warrior of great renown too. I guess Laenor should just have become straight and a great knight.

Not every gay man will be able to perform when it comes to sex with a woman. The rumoured threesomes were probably an attempt to work around that, if they were indeed true.

I did not post that Laena's twins were born in the same year as Rhaenyra's eldest. Jacaerys was born in 114AC, Lucerys in 115AC; Rhaena & Baela in 116AC. They were betrothed as infants to ensure the Velaryon bloodline still sat on High Tide. Who knows what Corlys would have done otherwise? He had two bastards in Addam and Alyn, and had the twins been boys he'd have known they had his bloodline.

You are right. 

I do tend to believe laenor was not able to perform his duties although they do want to do that. 

This is why himself and whole house velaryon seem to be warm to three bastards and laenor never refused to acknowledge them. It is a shame for any husband to be cuckolded. But he had to take it due to his own situation. There has to be heir to the iron throne. And also this is the reason why corlys got his two bastard sons. If he is completely ok with two daughters to marry them, why would he bother to make bastards? I guess he knew his son can not produce kids. 

[Aemond's Eye]

6 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

 

You are right. 

I do tend to believe laenor was not able to perform his duties although they do want to do that. 

This is why himself and whole house velaryon seem to be warm to three bastards and laenor never refused to acknowledge them. It is a shame for any husband to be cuckolded. But he had to take it due to his own situation. There has to be heir to the iron throne. And also this is the reason why corlys got his two bastard sons. If he is completely ok with two daughters to marry them, why would he bother to make bastards? I guess he knew his son can not produce kids. 

I think Corlys just didn't acknowledge Addam and Alyn for fear of Rhaenys's wrath. I don't think he sired them as spares, as such. He'd have hoped that Laenor would have carried out his 'duties' regardless. But Laenor doesn't appear to have had much interest in politics or advancement. As you pointed out, a character like Renly would have slept with Rhaenyra as he'd have wanted his own dynasty. But Corlys wanted the Velaryons to be seen as the defacto second royal house; not Laenor.

It's a strange situation for House Velaryon and Rhaenyra. Laenor was to be her consort, so it suited Corlys to treat the boys as his own grandsons. Even after their father's death, it suits both Houses to remain steadfast allies. Rhaenyra needs support for when she inherits; she can't have any questions of paternity raised. Corlys has nephews looking to usurp his grandchildren upon his death, and so marrying his grandchildren to each other suits all parties. (Marrying your step-sibling & cousin is odd, but not by Targaryen standards.)

[purple-eyes]

22 minutes ago, It'sAlwaysWinterInScotland said:

I think Corlys just didn't acknowledge Addam and Alyn for fear of Rhaenys's wrath. I don't think he sired them as spares, as such. He'd have hoped that Laenor would have carried out his 'duties' regardless. But Laenor doesn't appear to have had much interest in politics or advancement. As you pointed out, a character like Renly would have slept with Rhaenyra as he'd have wanted his own dynasty. But Corlys wanted the Velaryons to be seen as the defacto second royal house; not Laenor.

It's a strange situation for House Velaryon and Rhaenyra. Laenor was to be her consort, so it suited Corlys to treat the boys as his own grandsons. Even after their father's death, it suits both Houses to remain steadfast allies. Rhaenyra needs support for when she inherits; she can't have any questions of paternity raised. Corlys has nephews looking to usurp his grandchildren upon his death, and so marrying his grandchildren to each other suits all parties. (Marrying your step-sibling & cousin is odd, but not by Targaryen standards.)

Corlys fathered Addam and Alyn very late. Sometime two years after laenor's marriage with rhaenyra. At the same year rhaenyra got her first son by harwin. At that time corlys was 61 years old. 

Although this is pure speculation, but it does look like they tried to make a baby after marriage, but failed. Then rhaenyra got one from harwin, corlys got a bastard son as back-up from a common woman. 

 

 

[SeanF]

Having "duties to perform" doesn't mean a gay guy can get aroused for sex with a woman. That's not rocket science. "In my opinion it is better to have true born children." I'm sure Laenor would agree - it's not relevant though. It would have been better if the expected future King Consort had been a heterosexual warrior of great renown too. I guess Laenor should just have become straight and a great knight.

Not every gay man will be able to perform when it comes to sex with a woman. The rumoured threesomes were probably an attempt to work around that, if they were indeed true.

I did not post that Laena's twins were born in the same year as Rhaenyra's eldest. Jacaerys was born in 114AC, Lucerys in 115AC; Rhaena & Baela in 116AC. They were betrothed as infants to ensure the Velaryon bloodline still sat on High Tide. Who knows what Corlys would have done otherwise? He had two bastards in Addam and Alyn, and had the twins been boys he'd have known they had his bloodline.

Having "duties to perform" doesn't mean a gay guy can get aroused for sex with a woman. That's not rocket science. "In my opinion it is better to have true born children." I'm sure Laenor would agree - it's not relevant though. It would have been better if the expected future King Consort had been a heterosexual warrior of great renown too. I guess Laenor should just have become straight and a great knight.

Not every gay man will be able to perform when it comes to sex with a woman. The rumoured threesomes were probably an attempt to work around that, if they were indeed true.

I did not post that Laena's twins were born in the same year as Rhaenyra's eldest. Jacaerys was born in 114AC, Lucerys in 115AC; Rhaena & Baela in 116AC. They were betrothed as infants to ensure the Velaryon bloodline still sat on High Tide. Who knows what Corlys would have done otherwise? He had two bastards in Addam and Alyn, and had the twins been boys he'd have known they had his bloodline.

You are right.

I do tend to believe laenor was not able to perform his duties although they do want to do that.

This is why himself and whole house velaryon seem to be warm to three bastards and laenor never refused to acknowledge them. It is a shame for any husband to be cuckolded. But he had to take it due to his own situation. There has to be heir to the iron throne. And also this is the reason why corlys got his two bastard sons. If he is completely ok with two daughters to marry them, why would he bother to make bastards? I guess he knew his son can not produce kids.

I guess Laenor just found the whole idea of having sex with a woman to be disgusting. It's impressive that she and Laenor could work out a modus viviendi.

[Aemond's Eye]

19 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Corlys fathered Addam and Alyn very late. Sometime two years after laenor's marriage with rhaenyra. At the same year rhaenyra got her first son by harwin. At that time corlys was 61 years old. 

Although this is pure speculation, but it does look like they tried to make a baby after marriage, but failed. Then rhaenyra got one from harwin, corlys got a bastard son as back-up from a common woman. 

 

 

I just took it as Corlys getting a commoner pregnant. It was unusual for a baseborn bastard to be legitimised. There would be no reason for Corlys to assume Rhaenyra would do that, as it'd effect her sons. I'm of the opinion that Corlys just had a commoner mistress - maybe due to Rhaenys being older and Corlys still having certain urges - rather than him looking for substitute heirs.

[purple-eyes]

12 minutes ago, SeanF said:

 

You are right.

I do tend to believe laenor was not able to perform his duties although they do want to do that.

This is why himself and whole house velaryon seem to be warm to three bastards and laenor never refused to acknowledge them. It is a shame for any husband to be cuckolded. But he had to take it due to his own situation. There has to be heir to the iron throne. And also this is the reason why corlys got his two bastard sons. If he is completely ok with two daughters to marry them, why would he bother to make bastards? I guess he knew his son can not produce kids.

 

I guess Laenor just found the whole idea of having sex with a woman to be disgusting. It's impressive that she and Laenor could work out a modus viviendi.

Exactly. 

I remembered it was said when rhaenyra gave birth, both harwin and laenor were there to witness. This implied they have a agreement on these things. And also laenor named one son as his dead lover. (And tried to name him for his first son too)

That rumor is also suspicious. Why would they want to include all three together in the bed? Maybe this is a way to help laenor to make baby with rhaenyra by inviting her male lover. Unfortunately laenor still can not do that. So harwin was chosen. 

[purple-eyes]

6 minutes ago, It'sAlwaysWinterInScotland said:

I just took it as Corlys getting a commoner pregnant. It was unusual for a baseborn bastard to be legitimised. There would be no reason for Corlys to assume Rhaenyra would do that, as it'd effect her sons. I'm of the opinion that Corlys just had a commoner mistress - maybe due to Rhaenys being older and Corlys still having certain urges - rather than him looking for substitute heirs.

You can surely explain it in this way. But Ramsey and jon snow are also supposed to be from commoner. I do not think mother's base born status made big difference when you do not have your own heir. (Not Like robert) 

It is safer to choose a common woman, because it is too obvious to take a high born lady to be mistress. This will anger his wife and also he may have a hard time to find a noble woman to give him bastard. Common one is easy to hide too. 

Sure corlys can fall in love with this woman secretly. But the timing seem to be suspicious. If he wanted to take a young lover, why waited until 61 and also after laenor's marriage to have bastard?