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What role will House Dayne play?


Floki of the Ironborn

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I'm not sure that this such a really bombshell. I didn't see any of George's stuff, really, just a preliminary version of the TWoIaF Targaryen family. It was very much in the same state as the preliminary Stark tree we all saw in one of those samples that were revealed prior to the publication of the book.

It was incomplete in some cases (Baelor Breakspear's wife was completely missing, just empty spaces for Elaena's three husbands, no husbands for Daemon's daughters Baela and Rhaena, and so on).

I don't know whether the 'Rhaena Targaryen ?' thing came from some earlier version of the Targaryen family tree Ran and Linda got from George, but that certainly could have been the case (although the graphics themselves weren't done by them because, you know, you all saw the typos in the published family tree - they wouldn't have made that many errors).

The fact that Rhaegel also has an unspecified 'Targaryen WIFE ??' is also a hint that originally there might have been more sisters.

And I can also say that an earlier version of the text of the book had Queen Aelinor still be the sister of Aerys I just as she was identified in ACoK.

Ran himself has said that there have been late changes in the Targaryen family that led to mistakes in the text because the section on House Arryn explicitly talks only about two marriages between House Targaryen and House Arryn (Princess Daella and Rodrik Arryn; Prince Viserys and Aemma Arryn) when in fact there was a third marriage (Prince Rhaegel and Alys Arryn). That was due to George changing the Targaryen family tree late in the game.

But this doesn't mean George never intended to have any Targaryen/Dayne marriages. He just may not have flashed this whole thing out completely. There were a lot of changes to the old stuff, after all. Daeron I was married at one point, Rhaenyra's first husband originally was Lord Lyonel Strong, and so on.

As of I've said elsewhere:

My guess is that George changed all/a lot of the marriages of Daeron II's sons from brother-sister marriages to cousin marriages. After all, there are those six daughters of Garmund Hightower and Rhaena Targaryen from whom Jena Dondarrion, Aelinor Penrose, Alys Arryn, and Dyanna Dayne might be descended from. And Ronnel Penrose, too, by the way, the second husband of Elaena Targaryen. Aelinor may very well be his daughter from his first wife.

Not sure why all that is all that much important for the role of House Dayne, though.

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10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not sure that this such a really bombshell. I didn't see any of George's stuff, really, just a preliminary version of the TWoIaF Targaryen family. It was very much in the same state as the preliminary Stark tree we all saw in one of those samples that were revealed prior to the publication of the book.

It was incomplete in some cases (Baelor Breakspear's wife was completely missing, just empty spaces for Elaena's three husbands, no husbands for Daemon's daughters Baela and Rhaena, and so on).

I don't know whether the 'Rhaena Targaryen ?' thing came from some earlier version of the Targaryen family tree Ran and Linda got from George, but that certainly could have been the case (although the graphics themselves weren't done by them because, you know, you all saw the typos in the published family tree - they wouldn't have made that many errors).

The fact that Rhaegel also has an unspecified 'Targaryen WIFE ??' is also a hint that originally there might have been more sisters.

And I can also say that an earlier version of the text of the book had Queen Aelinor still be the sister of Aerys I just as she was identified in ACoK.

Ran himself has said that there have been late changes in the Targaryen family that led to mistakes in the text because the section on House Arryn explicitly talks only about two marriages between House Targaryen and House Arryn (Princess Daella and Rodrik Arryn; Prince Viserys and Aemma Arryn) when in fact there was a third marriage (Prince Rhaegel and Alys Arryn). That was due to George changing the Targaryen family tree late in the game.

But this doesn't mean George never intended to have any Targaryen/Dayne marriages. He just may not have flashed this whole thing out completely. There were a lot of changes to the old stuff, after all. Daeron I was married at one point, Rhaenyra's first husband originally was Lord Lyonel Strong, and so on.

As of I've said elsewhere:

My guess is that George changed all/a lot of the marriages of Daeron II's sons from brother-sister marriages to cousin marriages. After all, there are those six daughters of Garmund Hightower and Rhaena Targaryen from whom Jena Dondarrion, Aelinor Penrose, Alys Arryn, and Dyanna Dayne might be descended from. And Ronnel Penrose, too, by the way, the second husband of Elaena Targaryen. Aelinor may very well be his daughter from his first wife.

Not sure why all that is all that much important for the role of House Dayne, though.

Why aelinor is child from first wife? Then she will not have dragon blood and technically not aerys's niece either. 

She can be much younger than aerys, this will not be an issue for king's marriage. 

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5 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Why aelinor is child from first wife? Then she will not have dragon blood and technically not aerys's niece either. 

She can be much younger than aerys, this will not be an issue for king's marriage. 

Ronnel Penrose would be descended from one of the Hightower-Targaryen girls, making him a cousin of the Targaryen main branch, too. Not a first cousin, of course, but as close as a cousin as Daeron II and his sons had at that point on the Targaryen side of the family.

Aelinor seems to have been married to Aerys for quite some time. He did not marry her after he took the throne, and she cannot have been Elaena's daughter for reason I explain in the other thread...

I think Aerys must have married in his youth rather than later in life because Daeron II and Mariah wouldn't have forced him into a marriage after all his brothers (Baelor, Rhaegel, and Maekar) had produced so many grandsons. Daeron II even felt he had to send Aemon to the Citadel, after all.

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I think that House Dayne, as a whole, have been, are being, and will be very major players in the story, since before RR. After RR, they all but disappear, obscurely and peculiarly, from the eyes of the reader and the characters of the story both. There's a ton of missing info on House Dayne, names, births, deaths, house words, etc. This omission is not at all accidental, I think it's done very purposefully by the author to heighten the effect of it 's, their, revealing, in the final two books.

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At the mouth of the Torrentine, House Dayne raised its castle on an island where that roaring, tumultuous river broadens to meet the sea. Legend says the first Dayne was led to the site when he followed the track of a falling star and there found a stone of magical powers. His descendants ruled over the western mountains for centuries thereafter as Kings of the Torrentine and Lords of Starfall.  AWOIAF

and there is this...

Though many houses have their heirloom swords, they mostly pass the blades down from lord to lord. Some, such as the Corbrays have done, may lend the blade to a son or brother for his lifetime, only to have it return to the lord. But that is not the way of House Dayne. The wielder of Dawn is always given the title of Sword of the Morning, and only a knight of House Dayne who is deemed worthy can carry it.   AWOIAF

I think it's safe to assume The Daynes predate nearly everyone in Westeros.  They were Kings of the Torrentine...whatever that means.  Starfall is sort of the dividing line between Dorne and The Reach.   High Hermitage is north, between Starfall and Blackmont, and doesn't appear to have any particular border or strategic placement.  Is this stone mentioned in the 1st paragraph the black oily stone or the milkglass substance Dawn is made from?  To the 2nd paragraph it's obvious that TSOM has to be a knight of House Dayne.  Does anyone see Dany or Jon submitting to being knighted in service to House anyone?   I could be wrong, but I'm reading the 2nd paragraph to indicate that Dawn is only wielded by a single person at any given time.  Unless there is a secret Dayne running around unknown to us our SOM has to be Edric as it's clearly stated that Dawn doesn't leave the possession of Starfall.   It seems unlikely that High Hermitage would be in possession but I'm open to debate on this.  

One last interesting quote from AWOIAF which contains suspiciously little information about the Daynes is this:

Vorian of House Dayne, Sword of the Evening, renowned as the greatest knight in all of Dorne

Who knows?   Maybe Gerold Dark Star Dayne isn't really a cousin at all?   Perhaps Arthur had a bastard? 

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On January 20, 2016 at 9:12 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Well he was squiring for Beric because his "sister" was betrothed to him, but it is an odd match in itself a dornish Lady and a Stormlands lord.

 

My guess/thought is that a Dayne/Dondarrion match is really not that odd.  

There are numerous examples of families marrying from other regions, or for that matter squiring (example being Domeric Bolton for the Redforts).  Furthermore, Starfall doesn't really seem to be considered a "Marcher" house - or at least isn't on the Stormlands border.  They seem to have a greater antagonism toward the Reach (Darkstar's and Oakheart's excellent exchange), and historically they have sacked Oldtown.  Behind the Martells, I'd say that the Yronwood's, Fowler's, and Dayne's seem to be more prestigious/powerful or on the next "tier" above the other Dornish Lords.  We also know from Davos' thoughts when he's trying to contact Storm Lords for Stannis that house Dondarrion seems to be fairly respected, is a good candidate to be on that higher tier of Storm Lords.  So House Dayne and House Dondarrion may both be on the same power level, are not direct rivals, and therefore would probably be considered a good match in that respect.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On January 22, 2016 at 10:55 PM, The Fresh PtwP said:

Aside from being massive red herrings for everything silver-haired...hmmm..

Darkstar knows something dangerous

and Edric probably hopefully will do something cool maybe, aside from that idk.

I'm definitely hoping we haven't seen the last of Edric, and that he becomes one of the good guys.  

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I always feel odd why there has to be an allyria.

grrm can simply say, edric's mother is a member of house dandorian. 

Then this is enough to send him to be squire for Beric.

why bother to create an aunt and make an empty betroth? 

Maybe she is indeed daughter of Brandon. 

And she look like ashara, so nobody doubt she is a stark. 

 

 

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On 19/1/2016 at 10:57 AM, King Floki of the Ironborn said:

And I mean both branches of House Dayne. Where is Edric, and what role will he play? Are we going to find out what Arthur Dayne's demise really was? Will Darkstar kill Balon Swann, and either way, what's his endgame after attacking Myrcella? Will anyone wield Dawn against the Others? What are their house words and why has GRRM been keeping it secret?

The Daynes, with Darkstar in the lead, will destabilize Dorne by leading the pro-Dany and anti-Martell faction of the war. Dorne is notorious for being difficult to rule, the lords easily bicker among themselves and Doran has made himself appear weak. Even Arianna started doubting him. Darkstar is to be brought to justice..but will the Daynes stay put while one of their own is threatened?

What about the Yronwoods? Chances are that the death of Quentyn and Cletus will ruin the relationship between House Martell and House Yronwood. Archibald might not ever return from the mission, either.

Doran getting involved in the greater war might well be viewed as the perfect opportunity for many dornish to declare their own discontent with Sunspear.

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14 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

I always feel odd why there has to be an allyria.

grrm can simply say, edric's mother is a member of house dandorian. 

Then this is enough to send him to be squire for Beric.

why bother to create an aunt and make an empty betroth? 

Maybe she is indeed daughter of Brandon. 

And she look like ashara, so nobody doubt she is a stark. 

 

 

I feel like there is more to be said about her too.

But, I am very very certain that no Stark fathered a child with Ashara. Not Brandon, not Ned. I think that is a misinterpretation of the wording. Indeed it was wording that was deliberately chosen by GRRM to be easily misinterpreted, but nevertheless, incorrect.

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I really think Allyria is Ashara's daughter. I agree the wording is odd and easy to take either way. ie: she looked to Stark for sexy times or She looked to Stark to help her after she was dishonoured? It is way too vague. 

But I do think Brandon is likely the father. 

 

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11 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I really think Allyria is Ashara's daughter. I agree the wording is odd and easy to take either way. ie: she looked to Stark for sexy times or She looked to Stark to help her after she was dishonoured? It is way too vague. 

But I do think Brandon is likely the father. 

 

I always thought she turned to stark means she chose a stark in stead of Barri for love affair. 

Her brother arthur is there, her boss is elia martell and rhaegar. They are there too. Her dornish overlord oberyn is there too. If she really needs just some help for her disgrace, why go to stark? She had zero relationship with them as far as we know. I failed to see why she wanted to ask help from them. 

 

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9 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

I always thought she turned to stark means she chose a stark in stead of Barri for love affair. 

Her brother arthur is there, her boss is elia martell and rhaegar. They are there too. Her dornish overlord oberyn is there too. If she really needs just some help for her disgrace, why go to stark? She had zero relationship with them as far as we know. I failed to see why she wanted to ask help from them. 

 

For grammar nerds, that interpretation doesn't fit.

"Looked to" and "looked at" are different. It is a subtle, but ultimately extremely important difference in this case IMO. 

If GRRM meant to say that Ashara was attracted to Brandon, "looked at" would have been the more appropriate choice of wording. But that is not what he wrote. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

For grammar nerds, that interpretation doesn't fit.

"Looked to" and "looked at" are different. It is a subtle, but ultimately extremely important difference in this case IMO. 

If GRRM meant to say that Ashara was attracted to Brandon, "looked at" would have been the more appropriate choice of wording. But that is not what he wrote. 

 

Sure. I am just having hard time to imagine what help Brandon or ned or lyanna or benjen can provide to ashara if she was dishonored by other men such as rhaegar or Aerys. 

Moon tea? I think ashara can get it by herself. 

Took her to winterfell? Obviously not. She went to starfall. 

Tried to get justice for her? Maybe. Brandon was super mad at rhaegar. Maybe because he not only abducted lyanna, but also raped ashara, the woman he deeply loved. 

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13 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

I always thought she turned to stark means she chose a stark in stead of Barri for love affair. 

Her brother arthur is there, her boss is elia martell and rhaegar. They are there too. Her dornish overlord oberyn is there too. If she really needs just some help for her disgrace, why go to stark? She had zero relationship with them as far as we know. I failed to see why she wanted to ask help from them. 

 

Exactly. 

She Looked to Stark. Looked to is an odd usage of the word

 

To turn one's attention; attend: looked to his neglected guitar during vacation

To turn one's expectations: looked to us for a solution.

To expect or hope to: He looked to hear from her within a week.

Middle English loken, from Old English lōcian.]
Usage Note: When followed by an infinitive, look often means "expect" or "hope," as in The executives look to increase sales once the economy improves or I'm looking to sell my car in July.
 
. look to - turn one's interests or expectations towards

 

look to someone or something (for something)

to expect someone or something to supply something. Children look to their parents for help. Tom looked to the bankfor a loan.

 

To rely on someone or something: He looks to his parents for support when things get tough.
2. To expect or hope for something: She looked to hear from the doctor within a week.

 

Pay attention to, take care of, as in You'd best look to your own affairs. [c. 1300]
2. Anticipate or expect, as in We look to hear from her soon. [c. 1600]
 
(look to) Rely on (someone) to do or provide something:

she will look to you for help

 

Hope or expect to do something:universities are looking to expand their intakes

 

i took a look at the various usages of the phrase and as you can see they are pretty ambivalent and could really be taken either way.  To hope or expect, could be hoping for a love affair, expecting sexual relations from him. Or to hope for or expect assistance from. To rely on to provide, could be looking for help from, or relying on him to provide sex. 

The definition that it can be used to indicate turning ones attentions to though really I think only implies turning her sexual attention towards him. I can't think how turning her attention towards him can be in regard to seeking his help.  I suppose it could at a stretch, but to me it seems more to suggest romantic interest. And as has been noted she had far more obvious people present whom she could seek help from. 

Lastly I think you have to take it in context to what Barristan is recalling, he is musing on what she might have done had he won the Tourney and crowned her QoL&B. Which he would have done to symbolise his romantic affection for her. 

He wonders had he done so would she have looked to him instead of Stark. 

Now if the turning factor in what she was looking to him for could be altered by Barristan signalling his own sexual interest in her, it rather implies she was looking to Stark for sex, because Stark did not win the Tourney nor did he crown her QoL&B. As Barristan would have, therefore the reason she looked to him was not about who won (which could be taken as him being qualified to assist her.) , it was something else. But Barristan thinks had he won, and signalled his interest in her things may have been different.  So what was that something else, the obvious answer seems to be sexual relations. Because the thing he thinks could have turned her to him, is the prospect of sex/romance. As signalled by him crowning her. 

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6 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Sure. I am just having hard time to imagine what help Brandon or ned or lyanna or benjen can provide to ashara if she was dishonored by other men such as rhaegar or Aerys. 

Moon tea? I think ashara can get it by herself. 

Took her to winterfell? Obviously not. She went to starfall. 

Tried to get justice for her? Maybe. Brandon was super mad at rhaegar. Maybe because he not only abducted lyanna, but also raped ashara, the woman he deeply loved. 

I fully agree it is confusing.

I really kind of wonder if the help she wanted had nothing to do with her pregnancy at all, or only indirectly. Maybe it actually had more to do with the seeds of the rebellion that were being planted at Harrenhal.

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10 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

I always feel odd why there has to be an allyria.

grrm can simply say, edric's mother is a member of house dandorian.

Then this is enough to send him to be squire for Beric.

why bother to create an aunt and make an empty betroth?

Maybe she is indeed daughter of Brandon.

And she look like ashara, so nobody doubt she is a stark.


 


 

And GRRM said somewhere that Brandon didn't have a son! (So he could have daughter(s))
 

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On 2/5/2016 at 0:28 AM, Lord Varys said:

But this doesn't mean George never intended to have any Targaryen/Dayne marriages. He just may not have flashed this whole thing out completely. There were a lot of changes to the old stuff, after all. Daeron I was married at one point, Rhaenyra's first husband originally was Lord Lyonel Strong, and so on.

Yes, but George has been playing up the Sword of the Morning thing since book one. If someone like Jon or Brienne were to become Sword of the Morning, I think George would have established the 'how' early on. If it were significant, I can't believe  George didn't get around to it for twenty years.

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Is it possible that Edric Dayne is the "secret son" of somebody important and was left at starfall as part of a baby swap similar to the one that Jon Snow orchestrates at the wall when he sent Aemon Steel-song of with Sam and  Gilly? Do we really know his true age and actual background?

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