The Others, the first time around...

[LiveFirstDieLater]

So we know very little about the last time the others came, there was a "last hero" and a "battle for the dawn" but how does all this fit together... 

From the world of ice and fire:

How the Long Night came to an end is a matter of legend, as all such matters of the distant past have become. In the North, they tell of a last hero who sought out the intercession of the children of the forest, his companions abandoning him or dying one by one as they faced ravenous giants, cold servants, and the Others themselves. Alone he finally reached the children, despite the efforts of the white walkers, and all the tales agree this was a turning point. Thanks to the children, the first men of the Night's Watch banded together and were able to fight—and win—the Battle for the Dawn: the last battle that broke the endless winter and sent the Others fleeing to the icy north. Now, six thousand years later (or eight thousand as True History puts forward), the Wall made to defend the realms of men is still manned by the sworn brothers of the Night's Watch, and neither the Others nor the children have been seen in many centuries.

Archmaester Fomas's Lies of the Ancients—though little regarded these days for its erroneous claims regarding the founding of Valyria and certain lineal claims in the Reach and westerlands—does speculate that the Others of legend were nothing more than a tribe of the First Men, ancestors of the wildlings, that had established itself in the far north. Because of the Long Night, these early wildlings were then pressured to begin a wave of conquests to the south. That they became monstrous in the tales told thereafter, according to Fomas, reflects the desire of the Night's Watch and the Starks to give themselves a more heroic identity as saviors of mankind, and not merely the beneficiaries of a struggle over dominion.

ok so all tales agree that the last hero finding the children was a turning point... 

"Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—"

wait wait wait... So the last hero finding the children is a turning point, ok. But he looked for them hoping that their magic would win what "the armies of men had lost". And then we get the battle for the dawn? Presumably fought by the armies of men...

As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

So I'm not the first to point out the fact that there are a lot of similarities between the last hero and the Night's King. 12 companion, 13th lord commander... Wandered the lands of always winter hunting something, seemingly a stark. Also, the last hero ends up (in the story we hear) surrounded by others, and we hear of him slaying others with a dragon steel blade. 

Now hear me out, because this is where the speculation starts... Let's picture a time before the wall, when presumably others had few reign of the north, at least during winter. The others are a scourge upon the first men, now the children have shared this continent with the others since the long long ago and are relatively safe in their trees and hills... And while men have made a pact with the children they are easy prey for the others.

Now the last hero finds the children, and learns from them. But what if this is the same man who fell in love with an other bride... And takes her back and with his knowledge from the children and the help of his other bride raises the wall and crowns himself Night's King.

the long night lasts for 13 years, then he is thrown down by a Stark and Joramun... Who supposedly has/had a horn that could bring down the wall, and woke giants from the earth. Seems like a pretty sweet artifact for a wildling. 

I propose that Joramun was and maybe still is king of the others, and that is where King beyond the wall comes from. Just look at the first quote and flip the second but around, instead of others really being just a tribe of others, the "man" remembered as the first king beyond the wall is really the king of the others. It also explains why he has such a badass horn.

Now the nights watch does ride out against the others, but it is the Starks and Others that win and cast down the Night's King, forming a pact of their own... The wall stands and there must always be a stark in winterfell, who rule as the kings of winter until the coming of the dragon.

Also, just want to point out that this theory (as there is no proof to be had) would make the children of the Forrest neural at best, and very well may not have the best interests of mankind at heart.

thoughts?

 

[SevasTra82]

I've always felt that everything we know about the Nights King, The Others, The Wall, etc have all been a complete sham.  The only information known is what the Citadel has passed down, everything else was (as you said above) purposely destroyed.  The Citadel filled in the gaps from the destroyed information, completely skewing the worlds view of everything with their biased writings.

There is obviously something hidden here.  Why would The Citadel want everything burned and destroyed, only to re-write it the way *they* want others to know?  There is a massive cover-up going on, and nobody seems to know what and why.  

Personally, I really don't think The Others are "evil" and want to invade.  They are tied together with The Starks, Nights King, and Last Hero in some way (as you stated above), but I honestly do not believe their intentions are to invade and conquer.  The old legends where written this way by the Maesters for reasons unknown.

Bottom line, IMO, the history we know about everything is a bunch of bull crap, and the truth is what Jaqan Hagar is after in the Citadel (unkown why yet), and what Sam has started to uncover.

I'm very curious where GRRM is taking this, because even though I truly believe this history is false, I really have NO clue what the end-game is.  It's fascinating to me.

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Ya I mean the Maester's history is unreliable like one generation back, soooo I think it's safe to say they don't know much about before the Andels came...

but what about what the children have to say for themselves, now mind you we have only met one who speaks so we can understand, Leaf:

And they did sing. They sang in True Tongue, so Bran could not understand the words, but their voices were as pure as winter air. "Where are the rest of you?" Bran asked Leaf, once.

"Gone down into the earth," she answered. "Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us."

She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

i want to point out a few things here... She makes it pretty clear that the Children are few so they don't over run the world... Aka they have no predators. Including the others...

next the Giants... Their bane and brothers, interesting in that it was the Night's Kings brother who cast him down... And Joramun blew his horn and woke giants from the earth... 

The dire wolves will outlast us all... This draws a clear distinction between the children and the direwolves which is interesting given that it sort of goes against the popular theory that Bloodraven sent the direwolves.

Finally, Bran's observation is that men would not go quietly into the night, but would fight... Is it so strange to think the children might fight also? After all there is one big difference between the children and beasts like mammoths and great lions ... The Children can see the end coming, and maybe try and do something about it, or at least seek vengeance 

[aryagonnakill#2]

57 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So we know very little about the last time the others came, there was a "last hero" and a "battle for the dawn" but how does all this fit together... 

From the world of ice and fire:

How the Long Night came to an end is a matter of legend, as all such matters of the distant past have become. In the North, they tell of a last hero who sought out the intercession of the children of the forest, his companions abandoning him or dying one by one as they faced ravenous giants, cold servants, and the Others themselves. Alone he finally reached the children, despite the efforts of the white walkers, and all the tales agree this was a turning point. Thanks to the children, the first men of the Night's Watch banded together and were able to fight—and win—the Battle for the Dawn: the last battle that broke the endless winter and sent the Others fleeing to the icy north. Now, six thousand years later (or eight thousand as True History puts forward), the Wall made to defend the realms of men is still manned by the sworn brothers of the Night's Watch, and neither the Others nor the children have been seen in many centuries.

Archmaester Fomas's Lies of the Ancients—though little regarded these days for its erroneous claims regarding the founding of Valyria and certain lineal claims in the Reach and westerlands—does speculate that the Others of legend were nothing more than a tribe of the First Men, ancestors of the wildlings, that had established itself in the far north. Because of the Long Night, these early wildlings were then pressured to begin a wave of conquests to the south. That they became monstrous in the tales told thereafter, according to Fomas, reflects the desire of the Night's Watch and the Starks to give themselves a more heroic identity as saviors of mankind, and not merely the beneficiaries of a struggle over dominion.

ok so all tales agree that the last hero finding the children was a turning point... 

"Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—"

wait wait wait... So the last hero finding the children is a turning point, ok. But he looked for them hoping that their magic would win what "the armies of men had lost". And then we get the battle for the dawn? Presumably fought by the armies of men...

As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

So I'm not the first to point out the fact that there are a lot of similarities between the last hero and the Night's King. 12 companion, 13th lord commander... Wandered the lands of always winter hunting something, seemingly a stark. Also, the last hero ends up (in the story we hear) surrounded by others, and we hear of him slaying others with a dragon steel blade. 

Now hear me out, because this is where the speculation starts... Let's picture a time before the wall, when presumably others had few reign of the north, at least during winter. The others are a scourge upon the first men, now the children have shared this continent with the others since the long long ago and are relatively safe in their trees and hills... And while men have made a pact with the children they are easy prey for the others.

Now the last hero finds the children, and learns from them. But what if this is the same man who fell in love with an other bride... And takes her back and with his knowledge from the children and the help of his other bride raises the wall and crowns himself Night's King.

the long night lasts for 13 years, then he is thrown down by a Stark and Joramun... Who supposedly has/had a horn that could bring down the wall, and woke giants from the earth. Seems like a pretty sweet artifact for a wildling. 

I propose that Joramun was and maybe still is king of the others, and that is where King beyond the wall comes from. Just look at the first quote and flip the second but around, instead of others really being just a tribe of others, the "man" remembered as the first king beyond the wall is really the king of the others. It also explains why he has such a badass horn.

Now the nights watch does ride out against the others, but it is the Starks and Others that win and cast down the Night's King, forming a pact of their own... The wall stands and there must always be a stark in winterfell, who rule as the kings of winter until the coming of the dragon.

Also, just want to point out that this theory (as there is no proof to be had) would make the children of the Forrest neural at best, and very well may not have the best interests of mankind at heart.

thoughts?

 

Where are you getting these 2 things?  The Long Night was said to last a generation, 13 seems short even by medieval standards.  I also do not recall hearing about him killing Others with a Dragonsteal blade.

The reason for the tide turning when the Last Hero met with the cotf seems clear to me, the cotf told them to start using obsidian, and that weirwoods can ward against them, that is I believe why they started using ring forts, since tree roots and branches stretch out in a circle.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

22 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Where are you getting these 2 things?  The Long Night was said to last a generation, 13 seems short even by medieval standards.  I also do not recall hearing about him killing Others with a Dragonsteal blade.

The reason for the tide turning when the Last Hero met with the cotf seems clear to me, the cotf told them to start using obsidian, and that weirwoods can ward against them, that is I believe why they started using ring forts, since tree roots and branches stretch out in a circle.

13 years is pretty much exactly a medieval generation... Birth to child bearing age...

and...

"The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed, and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian. I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."

though actually the"dragon steel" quote is in Feast and Dance...

the implication of "turning point" might be that the children gave men practical advice like use obsidian and build ringforts. But it could just as easily be when "the children will help him" (as bran says) means help him, the last hero become the Night's King, and not Mankind at all...

[Blackfyre Bastard]

9 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

13 years is pretty much exactly a medieval generation... Birth to child bearing age...

and...

"The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed, and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian. I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."

though actually the"dragon steel" quote is in Feast and Dance...

the implication of "turning point" might be that the children gave men practical advice like use obsidian and build ringforts. But it could just as easily be when "the children will help him" means help him, the last hero become the Night's King and not Mankind...

I also have the same reserve about 13 years being too short for a generation. Also that the Night's Watch was created and the Wall built AFTER the Long Night to guard the realm of Men from the Others. What motivation would anyone would have to build such a behemoth of a structure to restrict traffic if there is no threat? The Night's King was a Lord Commander of the Nigh's Watch, everyone agrees, so he would've ruled AFTER the Long Night and the Last Hero.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

10 minutes ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

I also have the same reserve about 13 years being too short for a generation. Also that the Night's Watch was created and the Wall built AFTER the Long Night to guard the realm of Men from the Others. What motivation would anyone would have to build such a behemoth of a structure to restrict traffic if there is no threat? The Night's King was a Lord Commander of the Nigh's Watch, everyone agrees, so he would've ruled AFTER the Long Night and the Last Hero.

Ok well I can't help if you don't see 13 years being long enough, but even today a generation is what 20 years? And this is a legend...

which is kinda the point, none of this is cold hard facts, but I am inclined to trust Old Nan more than any other character in the story...

we think the wall was built by Brandon at the start of the age of heroes...

we think the Nights King was named Brandon, and was the 13th Lord Commander, but the counting of Lord Commanders is way off (as per Sam) and so if he lost 12 companions first then was the first "Lord Commander" and was the one who raised the wall it fits pretty well. Especially since "all record" of him was erased, and this was before the Maesters were around to write things down. So I don't really know who all are that agree... He "bound his Sworn Brothers to his will" might describe bringing them back as wights pretty well if they are the companions who died on the quest...

Also, maybe it's going out on a limb but saying the Night's King ruled during the Long Night seems pretty reasonable.

[The Snark of Winterfell]

I'm not the only one on this bandwagon, even though it's unpopular, I don't think the Last Hero found the CotF. I think it is more likely a pact between men and the WW.  If you read the end of the Nan story, it doesn't say that the LH found the Cotf, to me it reads more like the WW found him.

"Oh my sweet summer child … What do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north, when the sun hides it face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods. The Others … Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks. In that darkness, the Others came for the first time … They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding pale dead horses, and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes, found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through the frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children. Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken those lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods, the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog and a dozen companions. For years he searched until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds –[1] "     The common assumption is the CotF came by and saved the day and everyone worked together to build the Wall and beat the WW.  I don't.  I think the 13 is very relevant.  Night's King 13th Commander of the NW, Lh had 12 companions die, making him 13.  I believe that the others found the LH, made a pact that he was to establish himself as the commander of the Night's Watch and take a WW bride.  The kingdom of men would be South of the Wall, while the Kingdom of the Others would be North in the Lands of Always Winter (which is not a coincidence) and the NW would act as a liaison between the two worlds as their head was Human and married to a WW.  I also believe the WW worked in conjunction with everyone else to build the Wall, because why would you build a wall of ice to keep out ice monsters. I don't believe that the Others are necessarily bad. The only bad entity that I really believe is R'hllor, who sacrifices everybody.  If you have an alehouse and call yourself the king of mutton, you better watch out, cuz your about to be burned on a spit.  I think the Others waking up or at least letting themselves be seen with an army is related to that and this battle between the two is related to regulating seasons. May not be too much behind it, but I am starting to lean this way.

”

[aryagonnakill#2]

Blackfyre Bastard raises a better point than 13 being to short.  Why would you build a wall and man it with forts before there was a threat?

It's clear this is your theory and your sticking to it so you don't really have to answer, I'm just explaining why I can't support it.

 

Also, you say it seems clear the Nightking ruled during the long night, leaving out the fact that his fortress is the Nightfort, so that is just as easily where his name came from.

[Jak Scaletongue]

2 hours ago, SevasTra82 said:

I've always felt that everything we know about the Nights King, The Others, The Wall, etc have all been a complete sham.  The only information known is what the Citadel has passed down, everything else was (as you said above) purposely destroyed.  The Citadel filled in the gaps from the destroyed information, completely skewing the worlds view of everything with their biased writings.

There is obviously something hidden here.  Why would The Citadel want everything burned and destroyed, only to re-write it the way *they* want others to know?  There is a massive cover-up going on, and nobody seems to know what and why.  

Personally, I really don't think The Others are "evil" and want to invade.  They are tied together with The Starks, Nights King, and Last Hero in some way (as you stated above), but I honestly do not believe their intentions are to invade and conquer.  The old legends where written this way by the Maesters for reasons unknown.

Bottom line, IMO, the history we know about everything is a bunch of bull crap, and the truth is what Jaqan Hagar is after in the Citadel (unkown why yet), and what Sam has started to uncover.

I'm very curious where GRRM is taking this, because even though I truly believe this history is false, I really have NO clue what the end-game is.  It's fascinating to me.

 

I don't think it was the Citadel that burned and destroyed the records of the NK - I think it was the Stark and Joramun, once they found out *what* the NK had been doing (ie: sacrificing to the Others). It does make as much, or more, sense than the Citadel doing it.  If the NK really was a Stark, of course the ruling Stark would prefer to pretend the NK didn't exist, for both political and personal reasons.  And making sure the knowledge of the sacrifices to the Others are destroyed ensures that later generations will have a harder time emulating the NK.  It doesn't completely eliminate the chances of an oral tradition passed down (see: Craster), but it does make it significantly harder for just anyone to find out. 

That's not how legends work...I'm not saying the Maester's can't influence the legends a bit, but legends usually come from the bottom up.  It's the common folk who tell tales about an important person from their community/society - if it's a good story to start with it will be added to and embellished by other common folk outside the original community, adding in attributes from important people in their own community and/or mashed together their own tales of their own "heroes" with tales of another community's "heroes."  If the tales get well-known and/or popular enough, then the upper classes may start to take notice and start telling the tales themselves.  Naturally, there are always exceptions - the Starks (and other old houses) have their own tales and stories about their houses "heroes" but a lot of the tales we've been told, like the Rat Cook, Danny Flint, Mad Axe, just based on the "moral of the story" and the content, were likely "bottom-up" stories - told by the common folk and gained so much popularity that they became common even in the halls of the high Lords and Kings. 

Especially Danny Flint - that's not a story for highborn kids, that's a story for common born kids; the moral is basically "know your place."  Which makes it a good moral for the highborn kids as well as the common born ones, but based on the content it's for the commoners.  Maesters wouldn't have a lot of influence on stories like these, because they're created by a group that has little to no contact with most Maesters.  They aren't historical tales, they're morality tales.

Somewhere in the middle you've got something like Theon "The Hungry Wolf" Stark - he's a great hero for the highborn AND a great hero for the common folk!  Fighting back the Ironborn, good for lords and commoners; taking out the Andals, good for lords and commoners.  This is the type of tale that isn't really "bottom-up" but it isn't really "top-down" either.  I would put the Night's King in this category, I think - it's something that would affect people from ALL walks of life, so all walks of life would have their tales about it which would slowly be warped into one tale.  The Maesters might have a bit of influence in this category, as it relies on some actual history, but not as much as you're imagining, I think.  There would be too many people telling these tales for the Maesters to keep track of and influence every single version - they might have some influence over which version the higher-born folks heard, but they'd have little to no influence over what the common folk are telling.  But most of the historical Starks probably fit in here - both the common folk and the highborn folk would have their own stories about people like Edric Snowbeard and Brandon the Breaker, etc.

Something like Lann the Clever or Brandon the Builder are "top-down" stories, designed to "explain" why the Lannisters control Casterly Rock and why the Starks are in charge in the North - because our "ancestors" did, basically.  These types of stories would be where the Maesters would have the most influence, because they had the influence over the ruling Lannister or Stark. 

Now, don't get me wrong - the Maesters are definitely Up To Something.  But I don't think they've had any better luck completely "rewriting" history than anyone else ever has.  They've definitely had some influence, more influence in some places than others; they've always had a lot of influence in the Reach for sure, but it sure seems like they've only lately (ie: since Aegon I) had any significant influence over the North.  Since most of the kids' tales came from Old Nan, and so far Old Nan's right on the nose, I can't discount the stories just because the Maesters Are Up To Something.  We aren't even sure *what* it is they are Up To, yet!  Maybe it is rewriting history, maybe it was the downfall of magic and/or Targaryens, maybe they're trying to create a "United States of Westeros"?  We just don't know enough of what they're Up To, so I think it's a little short-sighted to dismiss everything we've been told when we don't even know *what* the Maesters agenda is.

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Blackfyre Bastard raises a better point than 13 being to short.  Why would you build a wall and man it with forts before there was a threat?

It's clear this is your theory and your sticking to it so you don't really have to answer, I'm just explaining why I can't support it.

 

Also, you say it seems clear the Nightking ruled during the long night, leaving out the fact that his fortress is the Nightfort, so that is just as easily where his name came from.

There isn't much evidence that there were any castles along the wall besides the Nightfort... It is the only one with steps carved into the wall. And yes the Night name thing is an assumption that would include the Nightfort, Night's King, Long Night, and Night's Watch... But is it really that big a leap?

And there was a threat a threat long before there was a wall... Unless you are suggesting that the Others didn't exist pre-Wall... But who was threatened and who presented the threat is not so clear. As others have said, building a big wall of ice to keep out ice people seems a bit counterintuitive... But as a border agreed apon and sealed with a pact?

[LiveFirstDieLater]

I guess I should explain the another part of what I've been thinking... Which, to be fair, is influenced by the fact that I can't get over the similarities between Blood Raven's hollow hill and the House of the Undying...

It isn't clear to me that an entire race is necessarily on the same side... Like the Stark taking down his own brother.

Or the Children of the Forrest... When the wise of the first men and the Children made peace on the Isle of Faces, who is to say that everyone in both races respected and honored the agreement?

It seems obvious to me that not all men would honor it right away and out of hand, after all Weirwoods seem to have been cut/burned since then... So why assume that all the Children agreed to the peace?

Maybe this helps explain why the hollow hill Bran finds is north of the Wall? After all, I certainly expected the Children would be on the Isle of Faces during my first read, and we don't really know what is on the Isle of Faces, so maybe there are Children there, or some legacy at least, we just don't know yet.

 

[OldGimletEye]

Interesting theory.  Not sure what to make of it. But, interesting.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

13 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Interesting theory.  Not sure what to make of it. But, interesting.

Thank you... I think?

[OldGimletEye]

5 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Thank you... I think?

It wasn't meant to be insulting. I thought it was interesting. I've always been fascinated by the Others and the early First Men. So I enjoy reading theories about them.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

7 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

It wasn't meant to be insulting. I thought it was interesting. I've always been fascinated by the Others and the early First Men. So I enjoy reading theories about them.

Haha I wasn't trying to be a dick, just failing to be funny

[Coxy]

I haven't entirely thought this through, but what if:

The first men drove the children north by which time their army (the others) start fighting back. The men realise they can't win and make a pact with the children to leave them alone north of the wall. The wall is built mutually as a border as other people have suggested. The terms are that men leave some behind as a sacrifice and continue to offer up sacrifices in future. Could be a reason for the wildlings hatred of the nights watch and why it is such a big issue if wildlings travel south of the wall.

The others have returned as a result of the wildlings getting their shit together and becoming a united army.

im sure this is full of holes. Could be an angle though.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

15 hours ago, Coxy said:

I haven't entirely thought this through, but what if:

The first men drove the children north by which time their army (the others) start fighting back. The men realise they can't win and make a pact with the children to leave them alone north of the wall. The wall is built mutually as a border as other people have suggested. The terms are that men leave some behind as a sacrifice and continue to offer up sacrifices in future. Could be a reason for the wildlings hatred of the nights watch and why it is such a big issue if wildlings travel south of the wall.

The others have returned as a result of the wildlings getting their shit together and becoming a united army.

im sure this is full of holes. Could be an angle though.

Hey that is one of the senerios I've toyed with myself, the only concern I have is the wild kings being left as sacrifices... There have been a few kings beyond the wall to lead a host against the wall or winter fell only to be defeated, but the white walkers didn't show up for each one...

 

I now tend to see the wildlings as just that, wild. People who settled beyond the wall for whatever reason... It seems like the return of the Others cleans up the that far side of the wall pretty quickly