Darkstar, Obara, Swann and Hotah. Who lives, who dies?

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

again, why?

We know pretty much nothing about her at this point. There is nothing to feel anything about, including horror. She exists for a reason, and GRRM will eventually let us know what that is.

I think a lot of people pegging Obara to die are simply being optimistic. Hopefully, the reason George made the Sandsnakes cardboard femme fatale caricatures is that he didn't want to waste pages fleshing out cannon fodder.

[Hippocras]

14 minutes ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

I think a lot of people pegging Obara to die are simply being optimistic. Hopefully, the reason George made the Sandsnakes cardboard femme fatale caricatures is that he didn't want to waste pages fleshing out cannon fodder.

Obara is hardly a femme fatale. Some of the others maybe. But if he can make every other character "type" more nuanced and deconstructed, then he can do it with the Sand Snakes (and femme fatales) as well. Again, we know NOTHING about them. We've seen them in one scene. But what we do know sets them up for specific roles in the future and that is what the last two books were about. Fleshing out of characters can only possibly come by spending a bit of time with them.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I'm with Hippocras with this. It makes zero sense to introduce a bunch of characters who all have specific traits just to throw them away as canon fodder. And GRRM isn't in my opinion the sort of writer who fails to flesh out anything. I fully expect us to know Obarra before/if she dies. And Areo can not die yet as he is our POV. Which kinda means she and he have to stick together, as he is there in his capacity as Martell guard, his job as much as killing Darkstar is protecting Obarra. 

I don't think for a second Gerold Dayne is about to meet his end, so that leaves Swann. 

My prediction Gerold slays Swann, escapes Obarra and Areo and the story continues with them chasing him, till he eventually gets to another POV character. With Areo giving us the back ground info on darkstar via conversations with Obarra during their pursuit. I'm sort of thinking eventually Obarra gets killed by him during a confrontation just as he is reaching the new POV, forcing Areo to return to Doran and continue being our walking cameraman on him. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 21/01/2016 at 10:50 PM, Ice Turtle said:

I think that we will get another hint for R+L=J from this storyline. Aside of that Obara is most likely to die, Hotah the least.

Do you mind me asking why? 

I have a vested interest in this. 

[SevasTra82]

Personally, I'm just curious what the Sand Snakes point is in the story, and what purpose they serve.  If they were removed from the world, I don't think the story would suffer at all.  They just seem...kinda pointless to me?  (Unless I'm forgetting something, been a while since I read them in the books).

[Hangover of the Morning]

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Why would Obara dying fix anything? She obviously has a story that needs to play out or she would not exist. The last two books were pure setup. This would be why they bored you. The events they were setting up will be in WoW or beyond. Obara's story had barely begun.

It was just a lame attempt at joke. I, and presumably many other readers, find the Sand Snakes irritating. Besides, there's so many of them, so Obara feels pretty expandable. George could flesh the SS out and give them personalities but for myself, I'd prefer if we spend the page count on other characters. 

[Hippocras]

18 minutes ago, SevasTra82 said:

Personally, I'm just curious what the Sand Snakes point is in the story, and what purpose they serve.  If they were removed from the world, I don't think the story would suffer at all.  They just seem...kinda pointless to me?  (Unless I'm forgetting something, been a while since I read them in the books).

what you are forgetting is that the have only just been introduced, and their story is not published yet. 

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

38 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm with Hippocras with this. It makes zero sense to introduce a bunch of characters who all have specific traits just to throw them away as canon fodder. And GRRM isn't in my opinion the sort of writer who fails to flesh out anything. I fully expect us to know Obarra before/if she dies. And Areo can not die yet as he is our POV. Which kinda means she and he have to stick together, as he is there in his capacity as Martell guard, his job as much as killing Darkstar is protecting Obarra. 

*ahem*

Quote

 

For himself, Victarion claimed the seven choicest girls. One had red-gold hair and freckles on her teats. One shaved herself all over. One was brown-haired and brown-eyed, shy as a mouse. One had the biggest breasts he had ever seen. The fifth was a little thing, with straight black hair and golden skin. Her eyes were the color of amber. The sixth was white as milk, with golden rings through her nipples and her nether lips, the seventh black as a squid's ink. The slavers of Yunkai had trained them in the way of the seven sighs, but that was not why Victarion wanted them. His dusky woman was enough to satisfy his appetites until he could reach Meereen and claim his queen. No man had need of candles when the sun awaited him.

...

A great cry went up at his words. The captain answered with a nod, grim-faced, then called for the seven girls he had claimed to be brought on deck, the loveliest of all those found aboard the Willing Maiden. He kissed them each upon the cheeks and told them of the honor that awaited them, though they did not understand his words. Then he had them put aboard the fishing ketch that they had captured, cut her loose, and had her set afire.

 

[Liver and Onions]

Personally, I like the Sand Snakes well enough, and I'm looking forward to what they can contribute to the story. As for who makes it out of the oncoming confrontation, it is hard to say. I don't see any of them having a clear ending at this point.

If Obara is killed, I hope she at least gets a chance to go out strong. I don't want her to just be a empty talker with her spear. If she survives, I can see her choosing to back Aegon, who is after all supposedly Elia's son as well. She'd do what her father would have done. 

Swann also has a part to play. He's been a likable background character for almost the entire series, and he's just now entering the game for real. He's probably the only one involved who's intentions are clear. (Or are they?) He seems most likely to be killed IF everyone else is secretly working together, but who knows how the tide might turn?

And yes, I also like Hotah. I appreciate how his chapters are so much less about himself, because of his own training and background, and more about his keen observations. It's an interesting change of pace for a POV. Perhaps not everyone's cup of tea, but oh well. He's been established as a good fighter, and again, we don't know what his real orders may be. It's unlikely he'd go down at this point. 

Good ol' Darkstar, Mr. "Of the Night." I kind of want him around just to keep being the Kylo Ren
of Westeros.  Again, his motivations and allies are unknown. And it would be odd to have him show up only to be killed in such a straightforward manner. We all seem to suspect that something is not what it seems here. Swann may very well end up joining them all to support Aegon. I'm looking forward to what happens. 

[Scorpion92]

Balon Swann and Areo Hotah are gonna die after this encounter, killing each other.

Not sure if Obara dies, but I am sure Darkstar gets in possession of Dawn, survives the encounter and takes Balon's white cloak to ride and become fAegon's Evening Star, like Arthur was for Rhaegar.

[Good Guy Garlan]

1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

what you are forgetting is that the have only just been introduced, and their story is not published yet. 

Obara is the most fleshed out of the Sand Snakes (or as fleshed out as those horrible Fox Force Five characters can get, at any rate). She's the only SS to tell the reader her backstory right off the bat. We know she has a chip on her shoulder about her mother, we know she wants to burn Oldtown to the ground because she sees this as a way of erasing her past and any reminder of where she comes from, we know she has little empathy because she doesn't give a damn about her sister studying in the Citadel, we know she's liken woman's tears with weakness ever since Oberyn made her choose so she grieves through anger and tries to present an outward appearance of strength. Frankly, Martin has killed more undeveloped characters (Renly and Beric come to mind). Obara is ready for the oven, if you ask me. 

[Hippocras]

23 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Obara is the most fleshed out of the Sand Snakes (or as fleshed out as those horrible Fox Force Five characters can get, at any rate). She's the only SS to tell the reader her backstory right off the bat. We know she has a chip on her shoulder about her mother, we know she wants to burn Oldtown to the ground because she sees this as a way of erasing her past and any reminder of where she comes from, we know she has little empathy because she doesn't give a damn about her sister studying in the Citadel, we know she's liken woman's tears with weakness ever since Oberyn made her choose so she grieves through anger and tries to present an outward appearance of strength. Frankly, Martin has killed more undeveloped characters (Renly and Beric come to mind). Obara is ready for the oven, if you ask me. 

then all I can say is you are being extremely short-sighted, making the baffling mistake of thinking that a character we have spent all of two minutes with has fulfilled her purpose. She clearly has not.

[Hippocras]

2 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

*ahem*

oh please. Those weren't even characters. 

[Hangover of the Morning]

The Sand Snakes definitely felt as if there wasn't any more to them but George needing to scratch an itch (so did Val to a degree). Now it's out of his system, we can hopefully forget about the Fantastic Fox Force Five and start focusing on characters that actually add something interesting to the story. 

[Good Guy Garlan]

21 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

then all I can say is you are being extremely short-sighted, making the baffling mistake of thinking that a character we have spent all of two minutes with has fulfilled her purpose. She clearly has not.

Yeah, because it's not like we haven't seen characters who have died after two minutes, like Waymer Royce, Syrio, Tommard, Preston Greenfield, Mirri Maz Duur, Imry Florent, Cortnay Penrose, Stonesnake, Jarl the Climber, Weese, Hoster Tully, Vardis Egen, Cley Cerwyn, Craster, and on and on and on. 

I know know why you're bizarrely arguing that Obara is more important than any of them or that she has this full, untapped potential. Like, such an odd character to have a crush on. 

[Hippocras]

15 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Yeah, because it's not like we haven't seen characters who have died after two minutes, like Waymer Royce, Syrio, Tommard, Preston Greenfield, Mirri Maz Duur, Imry Florent, Cortnay Penrose, Stonesnake, Jarl the Climber, Weese, Hoster Tully, Vardis Egen, Cley Cerwyn, Craster, and on and on and on. 

I know know why you're bizarrely arguing that Obara is more important than any of them or that she has this full, untapped potential. Like, such an odd character to have a crush on. 

The difference being that all of those characters HAD fulfilled their purpose. Which was to be killed in such a way that it advanced the story. Royce introduced us to White Walkers. Syrio was FAR more than this and doesn't belong in this group. Miri's impact on Dany was pretty fucking huge. etc. etc.

So Obara is a bastard. She goes after Darkstar. Gets killed. Who the fuck cares?

No, see...it is this simple: GRRM gave her a backstory that includes hatred for Oldtown for reasons that are not very clear. Most people don't hate the place they were born just for the hell of it. The reason GRRM gave us a character with such a hatred is for that hatred she has to actually serve a purpose.

Start reading a little smarter, seriously.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

54 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

oh please. Those weren't even characters. 

Yeah, they were cannon fodder. Just like Obara. Hopefully.

6 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

So Obara is a bastard. She goes after Darkstar. Gets killed. Who the fuck cares?

Who cares if Pate hooked up with Rosie? Who cares if Merrett Frey redeemed himself in the eyes of his family? Fodder is fodder.

[Good Guy Garlan]

24 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

The difference being that all of those characters HAD fulfilled their purpose. Which was to be killed in such a way that it advanced the story. Royce introduced us to White Walkers. Syrio was FAR more than this and doesn't belong in this group. Miri's impact on Dany was pretty fucking huge. etc. etc.

So Obara is a bastard. She goes after Darkstar. Gets killed. Who the fuck cares?

No, see...it is this simple: GRRM gave her a backstory that includes hatred for Oldtown for reasons that are not very clear. Most people don't hate the place they were born just for the hell of it. The reason GRRM gave us a character with such a hatred is for that hatred she has to actually serve a purpose.

Start reading a little smarter, seriously.

Just because you have an unrequited crush on a (terrible) fictional character and/or a spear fetish it doesn't mean you're reading smarter.

If you were, you'd know that the purpose of the Obara-Oldtown connection was so Nym could say: "Our eldest sister hates that city as much as our youngest one loves it" (paraphrasing), and we could get a Sarella name drop and hint of her secret identity, as well to expand on Oberyn's backstory since it was established in Storm that he studied in the Citadel. Now, I'm not saying it's impossible that Obara's going to fulfill her life-long dream of burning Oldtown to the ground, but what I'm saying is that's not necessary either. For one, Euron's got his eye on the city and maybe even the Faceless Men too. No Obara needed whatsoever. And second, just because a character said they were gonna do something it doesn't mean they absolutely can't be killed until they do it. Viserys said he was gonna seat the Iron Throne, Renly said he was gonna fight Stannis, Robb said he was gonna fight the Ironborn. Guess what? They all died and that was that. 

I also find it passing funny that you're adamant on Obara's future potential and yet your argument, if it might be called that, is just the Oldtown thing, which is borderline meaningless. Nothing about her character. In fact, you said "we know nothing about her" because you failed to see the several character traits a more careful reader can glean from her backstory (which I pointed out above). As much as I hate the character, Martin developed her far better than her sisters in what you said was "one scene", yet that character work went over your head. So who should start reading smarter, indeed?

[Ice Turtle]

5 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Do you mind me asking why? 

I have a vested interest in this. 

Which part of it interests you? As for deaths, Aero is the POV and Obara is way too sure of herself.

For the rest:

Aero is the only POv we have in Dorne, where TOJ is located and though Darkstar is the wrong branch of Daynes he is still one and might know something. If he will truly try to steal Dawn as some think we might even meet Wylla the Wetnurse.

[aryagonnakill#2]

3 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Yeah, because it's not like we haven't seen characters who have died after two minutes, like Waymer Royce, Syrio, Tommard, Preston Greenfield, Mirri Maz Duur, Imry Florent, Cortnay Penrose, Stonesnake, Jarl the Climber, Weese, Hoster Tully, Vardis Egen, Cley Cerwyn, Craster, and on and on and on. 

I know know why you're bizarrely arguing that Obara is more important than any of them or that she has this full, untapped potential. Like, such an odd character to have a crush on. 

NOOOO not Stonesnake.  Seriously tho the last we heard about him he was alive because he out climbed people who regularly climbed a thousand foot high wall of ice.  Dude could be alive.