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Death of Shae


Hodor's Aunt

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7 hours ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

Possible, but I am not sure about that.  There are a lot of battles described and none are described as Tyrion's experiences are.  The skilled warriors that Tyrion dispatches with ease would also be experiencing adrenaline as well.

This is a series where magical special abilities are often associated with a bloodline, and Jaime has been considered one of, if not THE, greatest swordsmen since he was a teen, and he received less training than many children of great lords, since Tywin made him study his letters for four hours a day due to his dyslexia.  I think it's definitely possible that both Jaime and Tyrion have a special ability conferred by birth.  If the enhanced perception is a true special trait, that allows a dwarf with little training to effortlessly kill multiple trained warriors, then that edge would make someone who was trained extremely deadly, as all agree that Jaime is.

I think the adrenaline accounts for the person being in danger feeling as if time passes in slow motion.  I have heard this in real life said but people who have been on war front lines and so on, so I think it is a medical fact.  It might not happen to everybody though... also I believe enhances the person's speed in reacting.  In this he would have had an advantage over Shae who was caught unaware.  My impression with Tyrion throughout is that he is relatively strong for a dwarf, also described as one point as a relatively good swimmer so probably he is in good physical form...

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How about this to aid suspension of disbelieve: Shae was asleep in bed in a prone position, mind and reflexes slowed by sleep. Who is to say she hasn't had a reasonable amount of alcohol to drink as well? Given these disadvantages, who are we to say this is not possible?

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There are several reasons for dwarfism, and several forms. It is absolutely possible that Tyrion is strong enough to strangle a grown woman. His arms may be short, but apparently not to short to use weapons, shields and tools.

On 21.1.2016 at 7:27 PM, FuzzyJAM said:

You're right, I overstated things with children being unable to swing it, and I guess in part I was about thinking Bobby B's unrealistically cool warhammer.  But it is true that for mailed opponents bludgeoning each other was the main issue rather than cutting, yeah?  Real warfare was about smacking each other about rather than the finesse-filled fencing matches we get in films, which is not something an eight year old would have the strength to do.

What we know is that

1.) Medieval swords were extremely sharp.

Arming swords could cut through a lot of things, including mail, when the circumstances were right.

2.) Medieval swords were light.

About 1,1kg for arming swords and up to 1,8kg for a longsword. An 8 year old could hold that.

3.) European fencing was complicated and refined.

Films get it wrong most of the time, yes. But not because they show "finesse-filled fencing matches" instead of mindless bashing, but the other way round. Especially when longswords and heavy armor meet fighting includes wrestling-moves, bashing with the pummel of the sword and things like that, of course. One technique even relies on throwing the sword.

Warhammers were used, too. But you can't balance a hammer like a sword, and it's not that versatile. Bobby B's archievement was not that he could hold the hammer, but that he could use it effectively, fast, and in a controlled manner.

 

 

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I'm seeing no problems here.  We don't know exact measurements of either character, but if I were to suppose that Shae is 5'1" and weighs 90 lbs; and lets say Tyrion is 4'5" and weights 115 lbs, I'm not sure we'd find anything contrary in the books.  And all indications are that Tyrion has good upper-body musculature.

Show Shae is not only taller, but also heavier, than show-Tyrion.  I never imagined this was the case in the books.

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Show Shae is 5.2 or 5.3, still a petite woman, I have met Sibel Kekilli and she is as tall - or small - as I am but weighs maybe 10 kg less;).

I do  not think at all that she weighs more than Dinklage. But I think this does not  really matter. Martin needs Tyrion to have a certain physical competence and endurance, there is no way Tyrion could be too frail, this would give Martin trouble with his plot. Tyrion must be able to travel, to ride and he can't be totally hopeless in defending himself. 

And if Tyrion looks like Dinklage or more "malformed" and ugly does not really matter in the context of this fictional timesetting. In that superstitious world even the prettiest dwarf would be a cripple, cursed by the gods, an ill omen and condemned by his mere birth. 

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On 21/01/2016 at 5:22 PM, The Mountain That Flies said:

Added to these astute observations is the fact that Shae has even less combat experience than Tyrion, at least that we know of. She may have never been involved in physical violence in her life, so at a purely mental level he had the advantage.

I think to suggest anybody who has had an even cursory involvement with prostitution "may never have been involved in physical violence in her life" is a bit daft. If you mean she'd never had any training then fair enough though. The evidence provided to us in the books pretty much shows that, when he wants/needs to be, Tyrion is a tough little dude.

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On 1/21/2016 at 1:22 PM, Lord Fauntleroy said:

Suspension of disbelief is in part created by the consistency created by the work of fiction. Tyrion gets cramps climbing up stairs, sitting too long, etc. For him to start turning cartwheels is ridiculous. His killing Shae is less ridiculous. He is very angry, grabs the chain unexpectedly, and uses it as a garrote. Garrote is a traditional assassin's weapon, perfect for taking people silently and quickly. Once he starts strangling her, she's for all intents and purposes dead.

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1 hour ago, kimim said:

Suspension of disbelief is in part created by the consistency created by the work of fiction. Tyrion gets cramps climbing up stairs, sitting too long, etc. For him to start turning cartwheels is ridiculous. His killing Shae is less ridiculous. He is very angry, grabs the chain unexpectedly, and uses it as a garrote. Garrote is a traditional assassin's weapon, perfect for taking people silently and quickly. Once he starts strangling her, she's for all intents and purposes dead.

Arms =/=Legs

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