Star Wars Rebels (All Star Wars Spoilers)

[RumHam]

2 hours ago, dog-days said:

Could be a misdirection, and refer to Vader. Apprentice is a sith term, and Ahsoka was never sith. Ok, clutching at straws a bit, since I'm fond of Ahsoka. Ezra could also be the apprentice. Or it could be all three of them - depending on your pov, of course!

It could be, but I think that's really unlikely. Vader said something like "The apprentice lives" when he sensed her at the start of the season. Plus like...obviously Vader isn't going to die. From the trailer we know they're going to have a confrontation, and she can't succeed in killing or redeeming him. 

And as mentioned up thread, they really aught to clear out all of these "not technically Jedi but still Jedi" before the OT. Though it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't. Continuity between the Clone Wars show and the movies was not great. 

[Jen'ari]

4 hours ago, dog-days said:

Could be a misdirection, and refer to Vader. Apprentice is a sith term, and Ahsoka was never sith. Ok, clutching at straws a bit, since I'm fond of Ahsoka. Ezra could also be the apprentice. Or it could be all three of them - depending on your pov, of course!

Vader was never Sith either.....or at least never a decent one, he got cut in half and burned and couldn't even use Force Lightning-amatuer.

[Joe Pesci]

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

And as mentioned up thread, they really aught to clear out all of these "not technically Jedi but still Jedi" before the OT. Though it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't. Continuity between the Clone Wars show and the movies was not great. 

I think we will maybe see less focus on keeping continuity with Rebels and the movies as it goes on. They'll use whatever they have to (Leia for example) to keep things interesting. It depends on how far a viewer is willing to accept things that they can say are contradictory when bridging this new show to the OT that came out almost 40 years ago. Leia interacting with Kanan and Ezra and seeing them use lightsabers is one instance. Does it lessen the impact of Luke somewhat to a viewer now knowing Leia has seen Jedi use the Force only a few years before she meets him? It doesn't matter much to me, but there are surely segments of the fan base who have a problem with things like this.

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Lord Sidious said:

Vader was never Sith either.....or at least never a decent one, he got cut in half and burned and couldn't even use Force Lightning-amatuer.

How are you still alive?

[Maia]

11 hours ago, RumHam said:

 

And as mentioned up thread, they really aught to clear out all of these "not technically Jedi but still Jedi" before the OT. Though it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't. Continuity between the Clone Wars show and the movies was not great. 

But why do they have to clear them out, if they aren't/won't be technically Jedi? After all, if just any Force user would have sufficed, Yoda and Obi Wan could have teamed up and  taken down Vader together and then the Emperor, instead of  waiting for 19 years. It would have been a rational thing to do. I mean, Obi Wan actually defeated Vader at the height of his powers by himself, only he wasn't smart/compassionate enough to finish him. And Yoda came really close to beating Sidious. Both of them going into exile instead only makes sense if Yoda had a premonition that contrary to mundane logic, only Vader's kids would have a chance to succeed. Even then, their negligence of Leia's training kind of makes mockery of "there is another" (hope) line, but we know why it worked like that. From Doylist persepective, that is - there is  no satisfactory Watsonian explanation, but  oh, well.

Former Jedi, who abandoned the Code and sundry other Force-users wouldn't have counted for the purposes of Yoda's "Last Jedi will you be" anyway, IMHO. I mean, if they stop being "guardians of peace and justice" - which Luke very implicitely became, they are no longer Jedi.

[Jaxom 1974]

A solid episode...but I'm starting to get itchy to get back to Vader and that story...

[RumHam]

4 hours ago, Maia said:

But why do they have to clear them out, if they aren't/won't be technically Jedi? After all, if just any Force user would have sufficed, Yoda and Obi Wan could have teamed up and  taken down Vader together and then the Emperor, instead of  waiting for 19 years. It would have been a rational thing to do. I mean, Obi Wan actually defeated Vader at the height of his powers by himself, only he wasn't smart/compassionate enough to finish him. And Yoda came really close to beating Sidious. Both of them going into exile instead only makes sense if Yoda had a premonition that contrary to mundane logic, only Vader's kids would have a chance to succeed. Even then, their negligence of Leia's training kind of makes mockery of "there is another" (hope) line, but we know why it worked like that. From Doylist persepective, that is - there is  no satisfactory Watsonian explanation, but  oh, well.

Former Jedi, who abandoned the Code and sundry other Force-users wouldn't have counted for the purposes of Yoda's "Last Jedi will you be" anyway, IMHO. I mean, if they stop being "guardians of peace and justice" - which Luke very implicitely became, they are no longer Jedi.

Right I wasn't suggesting that Ahsoka and Kanan could have taken out Vader and done all the prophecy stuff. But I think Yoda's "Last of the Jedi will you be" is problematic if they're still alive.Though like I said these shows don't seem to mind creating little inconsistencies like this. I'm not sure I agree with your claim that if they stop being "guardians of peace and justice" they're no longer Jedi. Did they all stop being Jedi when they were waging the Clone Wars? During the time of Rebels Obi-Wan and Yoda have basically stopped defending peace and justice. I would not say that Ahsoka and Kanan have stopped. They are doing more for those ideals than Yoda and Obi-Wan at the moment. 

And yeah they're not technically Jedi Knights, but everyone seems to consider them Jedi anyway. I'd argue that if Kanan isn't a Jedi, then neither is Luke. I'm quite sure both Ahsoka and Kanan got further in their training than Luke ever did, but of course none of the three of them ever completed the trials to become a true Jedi Knight. 

[Corvinus85]

38 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

A solid episode...but I'm starting to get itchy to get back to Vader and that story...

Yeah, I'm also waiting for the group to travel to that mysterious temple, and for Ezra to find a Sith? holocron. Then there is the supposes re-appearance of Darth Maul. But all of this towards the end of the season I wager.

Regarding the latest episode, I have to say that if the Empire hadn't lost the Death Star when they did, Ryloth would have another prime candidate for total destruction considering the ongoing rebellion.

[Queen Alienor]

I rather liked the last episode. Hera's conflict with her father was nicely contrasted by Kanan's hero worship, and I really liked the call backs to Clone Wars, though I agree that I'm kinda hoping they'll tie this back to Vader and the stuff from the trailer sooner rather than later.

[Jen'ari]

21 hours ago, Corvinus said:

How are you still alive?

The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider unnatural.....

[felice]

9 hours ago, RumHam said:

I'm quite sure both Ahsoka and Kanan got further in their training than Luke ever did, but of course none of the three of them ever completed the trials to become a true Jedi Knight. 

Didn't they say Ahsoka had completed her trials when they invited her back into the order? That would make her a fully qualified Jedi Knight for all practical purposes, she just chose not to accept the title.

[RumHam]

28 minutes ago, felice said:

Didn't they say Ahsoka had completed her trials when they invited her back into the order? That would make her a fully qualified Jedi Knight for all practical purposes, she just chose not to accept the title.

Oh maybe, I must have missed that. 

[karaddin]

I'm convinced Ahsoka is safe for now.  If they were going to kill her off this season, she needed to be in more episodes than she has to give it more impact.

[Maia]

16 hours ago, RumHam said:

Right I wasn't suggesting that Ahsoka and Kanan could have taken out Vader and done all the prophecy stuff. But I think Yoda's "Last of the Jedi will you be" is problematic if they're still alive

 

But why? Didn't the prequels establish that you can stop being a Jedi, no matter the level of your training? Dooku left the Order and wasn't considered one any longer even before he was revealed as a Sith, no? And he used to be one of the masters.

Then Ashoka left the Order in TCW and she wasn't considered one either. Isn't it why she now has white lightsabers, rather than colored ones? Because she is an unaffiliated Force-user? Don't they even have a bit of dialog somewhere in Rebels, where Kanan and Ezra say that they are the last 2 Jedi, even already knowing about Ashoka?

We also know for sure after TFA that there were other Force users around during the OT - Snoke at the very least, and  if they follow through on a deleted scene from the movie

Spoiler

Maz

as well.

 

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Though like I said these shows don't seem to mind creating little inconsistencies like this. I'm not sure I agree with your claim that if they stop being "guardians of peace and justice" they're no longer Jedi. Did they all stop being Jedi when they were waging the Clone Wars?

They were still trying to protect/re-establish peace and justice during the Clone Wars, just not very effectively because of Palpatine playing both sides of the board. They were still trying to follow the Code, though the protracted bloody war put them in spiritual danger that led to a number of them falling to the darkside - just as Palpatine intended.

 

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 During the time of Rebels Obi-Wan and Yoda have basically stopped defending peace and justice. I would not say that Ahsoka and Kanan have stopped. They are doing more for those ideals than Yoda and Obi-Wan at the moment. 

 

Obi-Wan and Yoda were still on a mission to restore peace and justice as well as the Jedi Order. It is just that Yoda's clairvoyance told them that it was critical for success to lie low until Vader's kids could enter the action. Even in ESB, which I have re-watched just yesterday, it is made clear that Yoda had been watching Luke from afar and waiting for him to come and be trained. Things are much more murky re: Leia and Obi-Wan in the OT, of course, but, oh, well. PT justifies the latter, sort of.

 

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And yeah they're not technically Jedi Knights, but everyone seems to consider them Jedi anyway. I'd argue that if Kanan isn't a Jedi, then neither is Luke. I'm quite sure both Ahsoka and Kanan got further in their training than Luke ever did, but of course none of the three of them ever completed the trials to become a true Jedi Knight. 

 

 

Luke was a Jedi because the last surviving Jedi master, who remained loyal to the ideals and practiced the Code, said that he was. At this point in the Rebels series nobody considers Ashoka to be a Jedi, not even Kanan and Ezra. They do consider themselves to be Jedi, yes, but if at any point in the future they decide to abandon the Code, stop trying to protect the Galaxy and just go to live their lives in the Uncharted Regions, they will stop being Jedi for the purpose of Yoda's definition. Training is irrelevant, mindset is everything.

 

7 hours ago, felice said:

Didn't they say Ahsoka had completed her trials when they invited her back into the order? That would make her a fully qualified Jedi Knight for all practical purposes, she just chose not to accept the title.

 

IIRC, they said that she completed _one_ of the trials. She was offered her padawan braid back, not elevation to a Knight. Wasn't Anakin the youngest knight ever, at 19-20? While Obi-Wan was still a padawan in his late 20-ies? Ahsoka was supposed to be around 16 at the time of her expulsion, no? And she was powerful and skilled, but wasn't supposed to be better than Anakin, surely?

 

[RumHam]

6 hours ago, Maia said:

snip(s)

I'm still not sure where the idea that you automatically stop being a Jedi if you stop helping people/fighting for justice comes from. (Though I'm no expert on the subject, and haven't read any of the books or comics.) The order could expel you if it still existed, but it doesn't. I understand why Yoda and Ob-Wan are laying low and waiting. But they're still ignoring a lot of the current injustice and suffering, even if it's for the greater good.

Yes I do remember a bit of dialogue where Ahsoka and Kanan were talking about "Jedi business" and she commented he was more of a real Jedi then she was. I never really thought about why her lightsabers were white. Isn't it the crystal that determines the color? (if so it must be really awkward when one of the younglings returns from the Gathering with a red crystal)

I'm not seriously arguing that Luke isn't a Jedi. But "Training is irrelevant, mindset is everything" is another thing where I'm just not sure where it's established. Clearly training is something. They spend a lot of time doing it, and Yoda is quite insistent that Luke stay and complete his training rather than go have a battle of mindsets with Vader. 

Anyway even if I agreed with everything you said, That'd just eliminate Ahsoka wouldn't it? Isn't Kanan still fighting for peace and justice? He was never expelled from the order.

Also even if we accept that Ahsoka isn't a Jedi and Yoda was technically correct, her absence from the Original Trilogy is still very odd from a story standpoint if she's still alive. She seems like she's going to be one of the founding members of the Rebel Alliance (if she survives that long, which again I don't think she will.) and Jedi or not you'd think a force/lightsaber user among them would be a huge deal. Surely she'd have some advice/training to impart to Luke? 

[felice]

15 hours ago, Maia said:

IIRC, they said that she completed _one_ of the trials. She was offered her padawan braid back, not elevation to a Knight. Wasn't Anakin the youngest knight ever, at 19-20? While Obi-Wan was still a padawan in his late 20-ies? Ahsoka was supposed to be around 16 at the time of her expulsion, no? And she was powerful and skilled, but wasn't supposed to be better than Anakin, surely?

It's somewhat ambiguous. "This is the true sign of a Jedi Knight." "This was actually your great trial; now we see that... because of this trial, you have become a greater Jedi than you would have otherwise." They say trial singular, but without any suggestion that there are other trials remaining to be completed. And she has "become" a Jedi - are Padawans ever referred to as Jedi by Jedi Knights? Presumably there'd still be some formal knighting ceremony to come, hence offering her the braid back. She started training younger than Anakin, and more rapid promotion seems plausible during wartime. There's nothing on Wookiepedia about Anakin being knighted unusually young.

[HexMachina]

7 hours ago, felice said:

It's somewhat ambiguous. "This is the true sign of a Jedi Knight." "This was actually your great trial; now we see that... because of this trial, you have become a greater Jedi than you would have otherwise." They say trial singular, but without any suggestion that there are other trials remaining to be completed. And she has "become" a Jedi - are Padawans ever referred to as Jedi by Jedi Knights? Presumably there'd still be some formal knighting ceremony to come, hence offering her the braid back. She started training younger than Anakin, and more rapid promotion seems plausible during wartime. There's nothing on Wookiepedia about Anakin being knighted unusually young.

I think it may be being granted a seat on the council (but not the higher rank) that Anakin is especially young for?

[Maia]

16 hours ago, RumHam said:

I'm still not sure where the idea that you automatically stop being a Jedi if you stop helping people/fighting for justice comes from. (Though I'm no expert on the subject, and haven't read any of the books or comics.) 

 

Well, I am not into franchise tie-ins. Until a couple of weeks ago I haven't even read any Star Wars books, etc.,but an omnibus of "Tarkin","New Dawn" (Rebels prequel that depicts the  first meeting of Kanan and Hera and how they teamed up) and 3 short stories suddenly showed up in my library and I gave it a try on a whim. It was predictably meh, but a quick enough read that I finished it. My current feeling is that I am not really interested in any more of SW tie-ins, because like most other franchise fiction I have ever tried, the quality of writing/plotting, etc. is pretty low. No particular insights there, except that a new Imperial character  is introduced and developed in the Rebels-related stuff that I would have liked to see in the cartoon. Agent Kallus is getting rather old and canonical OT villains need to be used sparingly...

Anyway, the idea that you can stop being a Jedi comes from AoTC, where we learned that Dooku  did exactly that, before it was revealed that he also became a Sith later. He left the Order, somehow obtained a title, went into politics etc. and nobody considered him a Jedi anymore. Certainly not Yoda and the Jedi Council. Then in TCW  we got Ahsoka, who was first expelled and then declined to return and left on her own.

 

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. I never really thought about why her lightsabers were white. Isn't it the crystal that determines the color? (if so it must be really awkward when one of the younglings returns from the Gathering with a red crystal)

 

I must have read/heard it somewhere when indiscriminately trawling SW news after TFA about the significance of Ahsoka's white lightsabers as declaration of her non-Jedi Force user status. Not sure if color comes from the crystal or something else. If so, then the Darksiders may have their own caves, where all the crystals are red?

 

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'm not seriously arguing that Luke isn't a Jedi. But "Training is irrelevant, mindset is everything" is another thing where I'm just not sure where it's established. Clearly training is something. They spend a lot of time doing it, and Yoda is quite insistent that Luke stay and complete his training rather than go have a battle of mindsets with Vader.

A couple of hours with Kenobi and a couple of weeks with Yoda is "a lot of time"?  Because that's how much training Luke had. Look, I'd prefer for training to be a more significant factor for Force mastery, but according to OT it just isn't. For that matter, there isn't all thatmuch training shown in Rebels either. I guess that  during the PT, lengthy training was mainly intended for indoctrination, emotional control and learning of all the non-Force related things that Jedi needed to know then, like laws, customs and languages of the peoples they needed to interact with.

As to Ahsoka imparting training/advice-you'd think that Kanan and Ezra could profit from it too, but we aren't seeing her offering any. Probably because she isn't following Jedi philosophy any longer. I'd very much like to know what her new beliefs are, but since it is a children's cartoon, we likely won't learn this either.

Anyway, if she survives-which is a big "if", I imagine that she'd be retired from the Rebellion and hiding somewhere outside the Empire's control by the time Luke joins. It is easy to see how her presence could be detrimental if it causes increased attention  from Vader and the Empire. And also, after Vader's revelation, she may decide that due to Anakin's influence, she is too susceptible to falling to the Dark Side if she continues being involved in violence on a regular basis.

And the same could apply to Kanan and Ezra, really. They may decide to stop being Jedi for any number of reasons. Kanan already didn't want to join "another war" because he saw how a prolongued war could ruin Force-users. Ezra is in  danger of falling to the Dark side. They may become desillusioned with the Rebellion. They may attract more imperial attention than their participation is worth. Force sensitive infants from an earlier episode could provide a honorable and meaningful exit, if the  Empire continues to hunt them and the Ghost crew, after becoming too "hot" for the Rebellion decides to take them somewhere safe and protect them, etc.

Basically, I really don't see a children's cartoon ending with deaths of all 3 Force-user characters, one of whom is a young protagonist, no less. Nor does it make any sense to me that the canonical 5 from the OT should be the only Force-users in the Galaxy at the time of the films, when the PT established that Force-users and Force-sensitives just aren't that rare. And TFA already states that at least Snoke was around during that time, IIRC, so it is now canon that there were, indeed, more. But those 5 were the ones that mattered in the big scheme of things.

Felice:

I dunno, Obi-Wan seemed much older as a padawan than Anakin as a knight. No clue what their canonical ages were supposed to be. And Ahsoka was 16... not to mention that how she handled her framing wasn't all that responsible and mature either. Would have been odd to elevate her to a knight for it and at such an unprecedented age, too.

 

 

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[RumHam]

11 hours ago, Maia said:

Anyway, the idea that you can stop being a Jedi comes from AoTC, where we learned that Dooku  did exactly that, before it was revealed that he also became a Sith later. He left the Order, somehow obtained a title, went into politics etc. and nobody considered him a Jedi anymore. Certainly not Yoda and the Jedi Council. Then in TCW  we got Ahsoka, who was first expelled and then declined to return and left on her own.

Yeah I know you can stop being a Jedi, I was asking where it's established that you automatically stop being a Jedi when you stop following their ideals. Ahsoka and presumably Dooku renounced the order and left / refused reinstatement of their own choosing. There was a meeting where it was established they were no longer Jedi. I haven't seen anything that suggests that one stops being a Jedi automatically if they violate the ideals of the order. Anakin for example did not stop being a Jedi when he slaughtered all those sand people. If Yoda and the rest of the council had found out, maybe he would have been expelled.

11 hours ago, Maia said:

I must have read/heard it somewhere when indiscriminately trawling SW news after TFA about the significance of Ahsoka's white lightsabers as declaration of her non-Jedi Force user status. Not sure if color comes from the crystal or something else. If so, then the Darksiders may have their own caves, where all the crystals are red?

Yeah probably. It's funny how (if I remember right) in Return of the Jedi Vader tells Luke since he completed his own replacement lightsaber his training is complete. But then in Clone Wars it's established that building your lightsaber is something you do even before becoming a padawan.

11 hours ago, Maia said:

A couple of hours with Kenobi and a couple of weeks with Yoda is "a lot of time"?  Because that's how much training Luke had. Look, I'd prefer for training to be a more significant factor for Force mastery, but according to OT it just isn't. For that matter, there isn't all thatmuch training shown in Rebels either. I guess that  during the PT, lengthy training was mainly intended for indoctrination, emotional control and learning of all the non-Force related things that Jedi needed to know then, like laws, customs and languages of the peoples they needed to interact with.

I guess in the scheme of things it's not a lot of time, and I'm honestly not sure how long he was with Yoda. I thought it was a while, but I guess if you think about how much time passes with Han and the others it couldn't be that long. Still Yoda wanted him to stay and keep training. Training is supposed to be important, I think. Though natural ability seems to matter a lot too. But for example Anakin got beat by Dooku at first, "doubled his powers" (god I hate that line.) through training and experience, and then beats him. 

 

11 hours ago, Maia said:

Anyway, if she survives-which is a big "if", I imagine that she'd be retired from the Rebellion and hiding somewhere outside the Empire's control by the time Luke joins. It is easy to see how her presence could be detrimental if it causes increased attention  from Vader and the Empire. And also, after Vader's revelation, she may decide that due to Anakin's influence, she is too susceptible to falling to the Dark Side if she continues being involved in violence on a regular basis.

Yeah that could also work, but I think it's pretty weak dramatically. Yeah this is a kids show, but it's not like they haven't killed people before. I agree with you that they're not going to kill little Ezra. I do think Ahsoka will die in this seasons finale, and Kanan probably down the line.  Ezra may well turn to the dark side and become an inquisitor or something. Or they could do something where the crew of the Ghost basically leave the known galaxy at the end of the series, off to some of those far away Jedi places like the island Luke is on during The Force Awakens. 

 

11 hours ago, Maia said:

Basically, I really don't see a children's cartoon ending with deaths of all 3 Force-user characters, one of whom is a young protagonist, no less. Nor does it make any sense to me that the canonical 5 from the OT should be the only Force-users in the Galaxy at the time of the films, when the PT established that Force-users and Force-sensitives just aren't that rare. And TFA already states that at least Snoke was around during that time, IIRC, so it is now canon that there were, indeed, more. But those 5 were the ones that mattered in the big scheme of things.

I just wanna clarify that I know there are lots of force users out there. I was only talking about people who could be reasonably called Jedi. I don't think Snoke or Maz or any untrained force sensitives are relevant to the point I was making. 

[Maia]

Since edits didn't work for me, I reposted the message in it's final form below.