Inconsistencies on Doran Martell's part?

[Cas Stark]

On 1/24/2016 at 6:28 AM, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

Either Doran Martell has a master plan that goes way deeper than anything the readers are aware of, or else he is a complete moron. So far his revenge plan has been to:

1)Betroth his daughter to the beggar king, give him zero support, and hope he someday conquers the 7K.

2)Send his homely son to seduce the most beautiful woman in the world with, once again, zero support, having his son rely entirely on the Yronwoods, who are House Martell's greatest rival.

3)Knowing that the Lannisters intend to ambush and kill his youngest son, he sends his daughter by the exact same path.

Yeah, pretty much this.

But, if his plans go much deeper than what he has told Arianne, isn't that going to further alienate her?  Which is kinda stupid....since he only with that reveal got her back on board.

There is no way to win with Doran Martell that I can see.  

[hardhome]

Victarion Chainbreaker you seem to miss the point, and perhaps the wedding joke bounced off you.  Visarys becoming king was part of his plan as such his daughter would become queen.  Being an excellent hostess is one of the queen's most important duties.  Her lack of knowledge of this aspect of the plan didn't stop it from being part of the plan.  As such he gave her wholly appropriate education for her presumed duties. 

 

SeanF  I'm not sure I understand your point.  Tywin's apparent goal was to make his grandchildren the monarchs and keep them there.  He didn't  care if it was Rheagar or Robert she married.  Beyond that we know nothing what Tywin was thinking when it came to Cersei. 

 

To clarify when I said comparable education I meant taught to make things look pretty. 

[mmenolas]

On 1/26/2016 at 7:17 AM, SeanF said:

He <Doran> could drop dead tomorrow (and his gout is getting steadily worse)

Just to clarify- Gout isn't something that will kill him.  Yes, there're studies that show that it correlates with as much as a 50% increase in risk of heart attack, but that's a 50% increase beyond a relatively small chance.  So let's not misrepresent what gout leads to- he'll be uncomfortable, miserable, and unhealthy, but it's not like he's dying from it.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

If he taught his daughter to be a savvy politician, she would not be as easy to manipulate towards his long term goals.  You don't want game pieces that anticipate your plans and move unpredictably in his game.

[Good Guy Garlan]

1 hour ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

If he taught his daughter to be a savvy politician, she would not be as easy to manipulate towards his long term goals.  You don't want game pieces that anticipate your plans and move unpredictably in his game.

Right? It really bothers me that Arianne's arc in Feast (and Dance) is basically Tracy Jordan going, "Ladies of the battered women's shelter, please be quiet, a man is talking!"

Like, that's her whole arc: women are apparently so emotional and impulsive that they suck at the game of thrones, so Arianne and the Sand Snakes basically have to learn to be quiet and let the MAN do the rational planning and the talking. They get a big spoonful of mansplaining for their troubles, that's what. (And some people call this arc the height of feminism because supposedly Doran and Arianne end up at the same level in a new, egalitarian relationship. Yeah, right. Doran's still calling the shots and dictating Arianne's moves. Just because he deigned to share some of his secrets with the gossipy, untrustworthy females it doesn't make him feminist of the year. Emma Watson ain't gonna be tweeting about Doran any time soon).

And what's worse: the man's plan (or lack thereof) is actually terrible too, but I have the horrible feeling that GRRM doesn't think so. I think he's unironically trying to present Doran as a mastermind, for real, though I fiercely hope I'm wrong. 

[Lord Wraith]

2 hours ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

If he taught his daughter to be a savvy politician, she would not be as easy to manipulate towards his long term goals.  You don't want game pieces that anticipate your plans and move unpredictably in his game.

True but when you have been planning treason for the last 17 years its not really a good idea to involve your gossip of a daughter. I am of the opinion that Doran has been keeping his cards close to his chest. Perhaps too close but only the remaining books will tell.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

8 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

True but when you have been planning treason for the last 17 years its not really a good idea to involve your gossip of a daughter. I am of the opinion that Doran has been keeping his cards close to his chest. Perhaps too close but only the remaining books will tell.

I'm sure his letting her in on some of his plans is intentional.  He is counting on her letting certain people know what he wants her to think he's up to.

[SeanF]

14 hours ago, mmenolas said:

Just to clarify- Gout isn't something that will kill him.  Yes, there're studies that show that it correlates with as much as a 50% increase in risk of heart attack, but that's a 50% increase beyond a relatively small chance.  So let's not misrepresent what gout leads to- he'll be uncomfortable, miserable, and unhealthy, but it's not like he's dying from it.

He's in his mid 50's, so he's already coming to the end of his natural lifespan (for his world).

[mmenolas]

48 minutes ago, SeanF said:

He's in his mid 50's, so he's already coming to the end of his natural lifespan (for his world).

Not that I disagree- but out of curiosity, do we see anyone having natural deaths while in their 50s?  Hoster Tully fell ill in his late 50s, and died when he was around 60.  So we have that one example.  Beyond that, we tend to see people who die young to violence or live to relatively old ages.

[SeanF]

9 minutes ago, mmenolas said:

Not that I disagree- but out of curiosity, do we see anyone having natural deaths while in their 50s?  Hoster Tully fell ill in his late 50s, and died when he was around 60.  So we have that one example.  Beyond that, we tend to see people who die young to violence or live to relatively old ages.

Among those dying of natural causes are Viserys I (52) Prince Baelon Targaryen (48) Jahaerys II (37) Lord Tytos Lannister (47) Aegon III (36) Daeron II (56) so while there are very long-lived people, like Prince Aemon, or Walder Frey, I think that even among the upper classes, one is very fortunate to pass 60.

[Cas Stark]

11 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Right? It really bothers me that Arianne's arc in Feast (and Dance) is basically Tracy Jordan going, "Ladies of the battered women's shelter, please be quiet, a man is talking!"

Like, that's her whole arc: women are apparently so emotional and impulsive that they suck at the game of thrones, so Arianne and the Sand Snakes basically have to learn to be quiet and let the MAN do the rational planning and the talking. They get a big spoonful of mansplaining for their troubles, that's what. (And some people call this arc the height of feminism because supposedly Doran and Arianne end up at the same level in a new, egalitarian relationship. Yeah, right. Doran's still calling the shots and dictating Arianne's moves. Just because he deigned to share some of his secrets with the gossipy, untrustworthy females it doesn't make him feminist of the year. Emma Watson ain't gonna be tweeting about Doran any time soon).

And what's worse: the man's plan (or lack thereof) is actually terrible too, but I have the horrible feeling that GRRM doesn't think so. I think he's unironically trying to present Doran as a mastermind, for real, though I fiercely hope I'm wrong. 

LMAO.  I never quite got the love for Arianne as a role model.  Her plan is (1) dumb and risky, (2) she can't even keep it secret from her own father and (3) the majority of her basic premises are all wrong about most everyone, her father, Quentyn, Darkstar.....  The whole Martell story is weird though.  I agree that Doran as a mastermind is being presented unironically, and I'm very unconvinced that Doran has held something back from Arienne, I think fire and blood is what it seemed to be.  It would be kind of worse for her character if the "real" truth was that Doran is still using her as a pawn and lying to her....

[Good Guy Garlan]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

LMAO.  I never quite got the love for Arianne as a role model.  Her plan is (1) dumb and risky, (2) she can't even keep it secret from her own father and (3) the majority of her basic premises are all wrong about most everyone, her father, Quentyn, Darkstar.....  The whole Martell story is weird though.  I agree that Doran as a mastermind is being presented unironically, and I'm very unconvinced that Doran has held something back from Arienne, I think fire and blood is what it seemed to be.  It would be kind of worse for her character if the "real" truth was that Doran is still using her as a pawn and lying to her....

Well, I've seen the argument (multiple times, I might add) that Doran and Arianne put all their cards on the table and they basically have no secrets between them anymore. But of course, that's absolutely not true, because Doran never told her who ratted her out or who's spying for him at court. So he still doesn't trust her, not really. So equal footing my ass. But yeah, other than those two things I don't think there's more to Doran's plans than what we've been told. 

[FuzzyJAM]

6 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Well, I've seen the argument (multiple times, I might add) that Doran and Arianne put all their cards on the table and they basically have no secrets between them anymore. But of course, that's absolutely not true, because Doran never told her who ratted her out or who's spying for him at court. So he still doesn't trust her, not really. So equal footing my ass. But yeah, other than those two things I don't think there's more to Doran's plans than what we've been told. 

Yeah, the idea that the Dornish story is one of great egalitarian ideals is obvious nonsense.  

But I don't really get what the problem is with having a woman not be particularly competent.  I mean, nobody in Dorne is competent.  What's wrong with that?  The series has enough women who are competent and men who are incompetent, to varying degrees and in varying ways, that I'm not seeing an issue.  The idea of "strong women" in fiction is way overdone - good writers should be writing their women with the same variety of competency as the men.  To refuse the right of idiocy and cruelty and so on to women is just another form of sexism.  

[Good Guy Garlan]

21 minutes ago, FuzzyJAM said:

Yeah, the idea that the Dornish story is one of great egalitarian ideals is obvious nonsense.  

But I don't really get what the problem is with having a woman not be particularly competent.  I mean, nobody in Dorne is competent.  What's wrong with that?  The series has enough women who are competent and men who are incompetent, to varying degrees and in varying ways, that I'm not seeing an issue.  The idea of "strong women" in fiction is way overdone - good writers should be writing their women with the same variety of competency as the men.  To refuse the right of idiocy and cruelty and so on to women is just another form of sexism.  

That's not the problem at all, not by a mile. The problem is that Arianne's arc in Feast is the story of how several emotional and impulsive women need to learn to know their place and delegate rational thinking to a dude and then do what this obviously smarter dude tells them to do. And that's presented unironically, with a straight face, as a tearful bonding moment between father and daughter, never mind that the dude's plan is bullshit. 

[SeanF]

Yeah, the idea that the Dornish story is one of great egalitarian ideals is obvious nonsense.

But I don't really get what the problem is with having a woman not be particularly competent. I mean, nobody in Dorne is competent. What's wrong with that? The series has enough women who are competent and men who are incompetent, to varying degrees and in varying ways, that I'm not seeing an issue. The idea of "strong women" in fiction is way overdone - good writers should be writing their women with the same variety of competency as the men. To refuse the right of idiocy and cruelty and so on to women is just another form of sexism.

That's not the problem at all, not by a mile. The problem is that Arianne's arc in Feast is the story of how several emotional and impulsive women need to learn to know their place and delegate rational thinking to a dude and then do what this obviously smarter dude tells them to do. And that's presented unironically, with a straight face, as a tearful bonding moment between father and daughter, never mind that the dude's plan is bullshit.

I don't derive that moral from the Dornish story at all. It seems clear to me that Doran bears a lot of the blame for what happens.

Given Doran's behaviour, I don't see how Arianne could have reached any conclusion other than that she'd been disinherited.

[SeanF]

LMAO. I never quite got the love for Arianne as a role model. Her plan is (1) dumb and risky, (2) she can't even keep it secret from her own father and (3) the majority of her basic premises are all wrong about most everyone, her father, Quentyn, Darkstar..... The whole Martell story is weird though. I agree that Doran as a mastermind is being presented unironically, and I'm very unconvinced that Doran has held something back from Arienne, I think fire and blood is what it seemed to be. It would be kind of worse for her character if the "real" truth was that Doran is still using her as a pawn and lying to her....

Well, I've seen the argument (multiple times, I might add) that Doran and Arianne put all their cards on the table and they basically have no secrets between them anymore. But of course, that's absolutely not true, because Doran never told her who ratted her out or who's spying for him at court. So he still doesn't trust her, not really. So equal footing my ass. But yeah, other than those two things I don't think there's more to Doran's plans than what we've been told.

I doubt if Arianne told Doran that she intended to depose him, either.

But, I think you're right that he doesn't really trust her. But, he needs her.

[FuzzyJAM]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I don't derive that moral from the Dornish story at all. It seems clear to me that Doran bears a lot of the blame for what happens.

Given Doran's behaviour, I don't see how Arianne could have reached any conclusion other than that she'd been disinherited.

Yeah, I don't get the idea that we're supposed to think "Oh if only Arianne had been sensible and listened to a man nothing bad would happen - thank goodness that's what she's going to do now."  Not in the slightest.  That doesn't necessarily even seem to be what any of the characters think, but the main point is that George continuously has his characters present things in a way he obviously wouldn't agree with which he chooses to let the reader take as they will.  

[ShadowCat Rivers]

For what is worth, GRRM also included the anti-Doran who opts for short to mid-term planning, does not mouth more than he can chew (though he can chew quite a lot, actually), has his priorities right (family's safety first) and trusts his young female heir to be a knowing part of his schemes. Oh, and he's successful...