Would Elia be okay with Rhaegar+Lyanna?

[Anath]

12 minutes ago, redtree said:

Rewarding a jousting lady doesn't mean that he had to shamed his wife, i assume he was smart enough to figure the hurt and shame it would cause his frail wife.
 

Why did he feel he had to reward her with a crown that was not matching the occasion anyway? He could have done so in private, rewarding her Bravery. Looks like he wanted for all the world to see how much he Loved her and thought her Beautiful above all others. Which automatically reduces his wife to second place where she will stay up until her death by the hands of the man Rhaegar himself knighted.

[Wall Flower]

27 minutes ago, Anath said:

It's interesting how you only come to reprimand those who project apprehension on Elia's part. I have yet to see you making such remarks about those who describe how Elia didn't care at all, how a second wife was nothing she even gave a thought about and so on. Very one-sided. Looks like you feel that while we have to wait before we condemn Rhaegar and Lyanna and you rush to defend them, even when acknowledging that people's views of their actions are right, you feel that you know enough to leave the glorifying of them and reducing Elia to non-entity whose part is either to heartily approve or at least not to mind their romance unchallenged.

We don't know enough to condemn them but we know enough to praise them, right?

 

Okay, I probably deserved that - I was pretty patronising. I really do try to argue respectfully most of the time. I admit it is my natural instinct to defend where characters are so roundly condemned without their side of the story being available to us. I certainly don't view Elia as a non-entity but we are arguing about how we think she must have felt or should have felt without knowing how she did feel (at least in the author's mind). I don't at all think that Elia should be discounted or forgotten. Martin made a deliberate choice to give Rhaegar a wife, rather than make him a bachelor and I presume he did that for a reason.

I don't think I've actually praised Rhaegar or Lyanna but I admit I find it harder to condemn them than characters like Tywin Lannister or even Jaime who I actually like. I can't imagine plotting my evil rise to power, committing murder or treason, but I can definitely see myself being weak enough to behave badly for love/lust, a desire for freedom or a strong belief in something.

[Anath]

1 hour ago, Wall Flower said:

 

I don't think I've actually praised Rhaegar or Lyanna but I admit I find it harder to condemn them than characters like Tywin Lannister or even Jaime who I actually like. I can't imagine plotting my evil rise to power, committing murder or treason, but I can definitely see myself being weak enough to behave badly for love/lust, a desire for freedom or a strong belief in something.

Look, I don't think I've seen you actively praising Rhaegar or Lyanna. I just get annoyed when people claim they're all for just treatment but then only favour one side which you do. You aren't the impartial part you're trying to present yourself as, that's what I have a problem with. You have a problem with characters being condemned roundly but you overlook their being given all kind if invented excuses. I don't even mind that you think leaving your children with a madman who keeps them hostage and has shown animosity to one of them is just "bad behavior" and not "bad parenting" or "criminal negligence" - and no, I don't believe Rhaegar had no power in KL. At this point, Aerys did everything Rhaegar wanted him to. Rhaegar made it clear that he chose not to take Jaime along, so he could have. Makes sense that he could have done the same thing with his own children but he chose not to.

We aren't actually arguing how Elia might have felt. It's you arguing with us how Rhaegar wasn't this bad of a husband or a father. You might not feel that Elia must be discounted or forgotten but you never actually discuss anything about her. It's just how we shouldn't judge Rhaegar and Lyanna and Rhaegar might have been helpless, and how there was no textual evidence that he changed his mind (actually, there is a hint, namely that he had changed his mind once he decided that a new sign had appeared.) It definitely looks like you're discounting her for your favourite boy who just behaved badly.

 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Anath,

Just one quibble - Rhaegar left them at Dragonstone, not "with Aerys". They ended up in KL because they were summoned and I suppose they couldn't really refuse.  Rhaegar should have come up with a backup plan in case Aerys summoned them, though, so he was negligent in that.  

[Anath]

He left them with Aerys when he left for the Trident.

Even when he left them at Dragonstone, they were easily within Aerys' reach. But he might have not have any Lyanna plans when he left then, so he might not have known. Still, even if he just chanced upon Lyanna and made plans upon the spot, he should have made plans about his family. He was the only one who knew what was going on even before Brandon Stark came to hear.

Easy? Not at all. But that's what you do when you deal with a madman. Especially a powerful one who distrusts you and your wife and has shown dislike to your child.

[TimJames]

10 hours ago, WhitewolfStark said:

I agree with those who say we lack too much information and are filling that hole with a lot of speculation.

It always bothers me when people say this. "Wait for more information. We don't have enough information." There are only two books left in this series and the story is gearing up for its climax; the time for exposition is long past. 

We might not get more information: GRRM might decide to leave it up to the reader to decide what really happened (authors don't always answer all the questions). In that case, there is nothing wrong with making theories based on the evidence we have now.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

3 hours ago, Anath said:

He left them with Aerys when he left for the Trident.

Even when he left them at Dragonstone, they were easily within Aerys' reach. But he might have not have any Lyanna plans when he left then, so he might not have known. Still, even if he just chanced upon Lyanna and made plans upon the spot, he should have made plans about his family. He was the only one who knew what was going on even before Brandon Stark came to hear.

Easy? Not at all. But that's what you do when you deal with a madman. Especially a powerful one who distrusts you and your wife and has shown dislike to your child.

Oh yes, Rhaegar was incredibly reckless.  He 100% should have either dealt with Aerys on a permanent basis, or at least sent Elia and her kids to Dorne, where their safety could be assured before he did anything WRT Lyanna.  He was either obsessed with prophecy or her.  

As for leaving them in KL when he went to the trident I am not sure what options were left at that point - was there a safe route for Elia and kids to take at that time?  I suppose he could have sent them to the ToJ with some escort.  But Aegon was still just a babe and Rhaenys a little kid.  It could be very dangerous road for noncombatants.  

Based on Rhaegars words to Jaime it appears he regrets not acting sooner, because he now sees (obviously) how far Aerys has fallen.  So he definitely misjudged how far gone Aerys was. Aerys deciding to torture to death a large number of high lords for speaking out of turn wasn't something many people could have anticipated.  But Rhaegar should have been in the best position to know, and therefore should have dealt with the Aerys problem before the ptwp problem. 

[Anath]

He could have sent them to Dragonstone from where they could have traveled to Dorne or something. Everything was safer than leaving them with Aerys. Even the rebels were surprised by the lengths Tywin went to. The worst thing Rhaegar could have expected was for them to be captured which was still a better option than being left with Aerys who was getting progressively worse.

Then again, we have a hint of what Rhaegar valued most: his father's emotional stability, or what passed for emotional stability at this stage. And while I can accept it might be a reasonable thing to do for a statesman, it isn't this good for a father. Again, something else came first. Just like in Harrenhall. The courage of someone playing the knight should be acknowledged, never mind the humiliation of the wife.

[The Wolves]

3 hours ago, TimJames said:

It always bothers me when people say this. "Wait for more information. We don't have enough information." There are only two books left in this series and the story is gearing up for its climax; the time for exposition is long past. 

We might not get more information: GRRM might decide to leave it up to the reader to decide what really happened (authors don't always answer all the questions). In that case, there is nothing wrong with making theories based on the evidence we have now.

GRRM did say we would know everything about Robert's Rebellion by the last book so no I doubt he will not give us the rest of the information. 

[purple-eyes]

16 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

GRRM did say we would know everything about Robert's Rebellion by the last book so no I doubt he will not give us the rest of the information. 

That is what he thought he should tell us. 

Obviously many things we talked here will not be covered in his book.  

Such as when and where about Wylla. Did KG know viserys is new heir. How they get outside information in toj. How white bull found rhaegar, etc. 

So we will still have many questions. 

 

[Wall Flower]

6 hours ago, Anath said:

Look, I don't think I've seen you actively praising Rhaegar or Lyanna. I just get annoyed when people claim they're all for just treatment but then only favour one side which you do. You aren't the impartial part you're trying to present yourself as, that's what I have a problem with. You have a problem with characters being condemned roundly but you overlook their being given all kind if invented excuses. I don't even mind that you think leaving your children with a madman who keeps them hostage and has shown animosity to one of them is just "bad behavior" and not "bad parenting" or "criminal negligence" - and no, I don't believe Rhaegar had no power in KL. At this point, Aerys did everything Rhaegar wanted him to. Rhaegar made it clear that he chose not to take Jaime along, so he could have. Makes sense that he could have done the same thing with his own children but he chose not to.

We aren't actually arguing how Elia might have felt. It's you arguing with us how Rhaegar wasn't this bad of a husband or a father. You might not feel that Elia must be discounted or forgotten but you never actually discuss anything about her. It's just how we shouldn't judge Rhaegar and Lyanna and Rhaegar might have been helpless, and how there was no textual evidence that he changed his mind (actually, there is a hint, namely that he had changed his mind once he decided that a new sign had appeared.) It definitely looks like you're discounting her for your favourite boy who just behaved badly.

 

Anath, I don't pretend to be impartial, we all have our biases, but I do try to address your individual points not attack you personally. I hope you can show me the same courtesy in future.

[Anath]

36 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

Anath, I don't pretend to be impartial, we all have our biases, but I do try to address your individual points not attack you personally. I hope you can show me the same courtesy in future.

Fine! As long as you don't pat me on the head (personally, I think being patronising is a personal attack and I hadn't said anything about your biases when you mocked my "strong emotions".) Deal?

Now, what are your points? We already know that according to you, Elia was to remain Rhaegar's wife and Aegon his heir. So? Do you think she would have been OK with Lyanna's arrival?

[Wall Flower]

OK Anath, I believe I did acknowledge that I deserved to pulled up for being patronising and I fully accept that I crossed the line into the personal there. I apologise for that. By the way, I wasn't mocking your emotional response, to me you went too far in suggesting that Rhaegar thought Elia was nothing or didn't value Rhaenys. I thought it a long bow to draw from his actions - obviously we disagree on that.

My point was that there is insufficient textual evidence to suggest that Rhaegar meant to put Elia and her children aside. No, I think it likely that she would not have been OK with a second wife but beyond that I'm cautious because we know next to nothing about Elia's actual feeling or thoughts or what happened between husband and wife. Martin described their relationship as 'complicated', so I guess we'll have to wait to see what he means by that. 

[Ser Whozits of Whocares]

Wow, wasn't expecting this thread to get so many replies! Keep 'em coming!

I have a few further thoughts on the subject. I was recently reading a Star Trek book, and I read something that reminded me of R+L (oddly enough). Some characters were discussing the popularity of Shakespeare's plays among Klingons, and one of them mentioned that the only Shakespeare play that Klingons don't like is Romeo and Juliet. Instead of seeing them as tragic star-crossed lovers who met sad ends, Klingons see them as selfish and honorless for putting their personal desires above the good of their Houses, and ultimately got their just desserts.

Perhaps that is what R+L will ultimately be revealed as. Romeo and Juliet's actions led to their own deaths, whereas Rhaegar and Lyanna's actions led to not only their own deaths, but thousands of others in massive civil war, and the overthrow of a dynasty.

We all know how much GRRM loves to deconstruct medieval/fantasy tropes. I remember in an interview, he complained about how works set in a medieval or fantasy setting depict arranged marriages. They almost always depict it as something terrible, agonizing, and something no one ever wants to go through. He pointed out that in the real-life Middle Ages, the nobility practiced arranged marriages thousands and thousands of times, and they put up with it. Indeed, very few "marry for love" marriages in ASOIAF work out well in the long run. What better way to deconstruct the typical "star-crossed lovers" story than having their actions have such catastrophic consequences for the realm?

[purple-eyes]

6 minutes ago, Ser Whozits of Whocares said:

Wow, wasn't expecting this thread to get so many replies! Keep 'em coming!

I have a few further thoughts on the subject. I was recently reading a Star Trek book, and I read something that reminded me of R+L (oddly enough). Some characters were discussing the popularity of Shakespeare's plays among Klingons, and one of them mentioned that the only Shakespeare play that Klingons don't like is Romeo and Juliet. Instead of seeing them as tragic star-crossed lovers who met sad ends, Klingons see them as selfish and honorless for putting their personal desires above the good of their Houses, and ultimately got their just desserts.

Perhaps that is what R+L will ultimately be revealed as. Romeo and Juliet's actions led to their own deaths, whereas Rhaegar and Lyanna's actions led to not only their own deaths, but thousands of others in massive civil war, and the overthrow of a dynasty.

We all know how much GRRM loves to deconstruct medieval/fantasy tropes. I remember in an interview, he complained about how works set in a medieval or fantasy setting depict arranged marriages. They almost always depict it as something terrible, agonizing, and something no one ever wants to go through. He pointed out that in the real-life Middle Ages, the nobility practiced arranged marriages thousands and thousands of times, and they put up with it. Indeed, very few "marry for love" marriages in ASOIAF work out well in the long run. What better way to deconstruct the typical "star-crossed lovers" story than having their actions have such catastrophic consequences for the realm?

yeah, but some Rhaegar/lyanna shippers and lovers will still claim this just as what happened in troy:

Helen's beauty is worthy of ten years of war and thousands of deaths! Her face launched a thousand ships! Love between Paris and Helen is so beautiful and classical!

In their mind, love of Rhaegar and Lyanna is worthy all the bloodshedding because it is so incredibly beautiful.

 

[David Selig]

25 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

yeah, but some Rhaegar/lyanna shippers and lovers will still claim this just as what happened in troy:

Helen's beauty is worthy of ten years of war and thousands of deaths! Her face launched a thousand ships! Love between Paris and Helen is so beautiful and classical!

In their mind, love of Rhaegar and Lyanna is worthy all the bloodshedding because it is so incredibly beautiful.

 

Holy strawman, Batman!

[Ser Whozits of Whocares]

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

yeah, but some Rhaegar/lyanna shippers and lovers will still claim this just as what happened in troy:

Helen's beauty is worthy of ten years of war and thousands of deaths! Her face launched a thousand ships! Love between Paris and Helen is so beautiful and classical!

In their mind, love of Rhaegar and Lyanna is worthy all the bloodshedding because it is so incredibly beautiful.

 

While I wouldn't have put it quite so harshly, I do agree that R+L fans often overly romanticize the pair (which is part of why I made this thread in the first place).

[TimJames]

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

yeah, but some Rhaegar/lyanna shippers and lovers will still claim this just as what happened in troy:

Helen's beauty is worthy of ten years of war and thousands of deaths! Her face launched a thousand ships! Love between Paris and Helen is so beautiful and classical!

In their mind, love of Rhaegar and Lyanna is worthy all the bloodshedding because it is so incredibly beautiful.

 

It's too bad Rhaegar didn't have an older brother around to berate his poor life choices.

Hector: "You say you're willing to die for love but you know nothing about dying and you know nothing about love!"

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Of course not. She has many logical and emotional reasons to not be ok with her husband running with a teenager girl. In addition to the usual reasons someone might not like that, there is also the threat to her children, and the threat to them losing their position or future position.

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, TimJames said:

It's too bad Rhaegar didn't have an older brother around to berate his poor life choices.

Hector: "You say you're willing to die for love but you know nothing about dying and you know nothing about love!"

Yes, very good citation.